WEBVTT 00:00.000 --> 00:28.640 Thank you very much. 00:28.640 --> 00:29.640 Glad to be here. 00:29.640 --> 00:33.200 Hey, you and I have not seen each other since we did the Wisconsin and Black and White 00:33.200 --> 00:34.200 Project. 00:34.200 --> 00:35.200 Thank you for your service on that. 00:35.200 --> 00:36.200 Oh, thank you. 00:36.200 --> 00:37.200 It was really good. 00:37.200 --> 00:38.200 Yeah. 00:38.200 --> 00:40.240 And for a lot of folks that don't know, you're a former police chief. 00:40.240 --> 00:44.240 You've been in law enforcement for, um, now 40 years. 00:44.240 --> 00:45.240 40 years. 00:45.240 --> 00:46.240 Wow. 00:46.240 --> 00:48.840 And give me a little snapshot of what made you go into law enforcement. 00:48.840 --> 00:53.120 What was it about law enforcement that made you say I'd like to commit my life to that? 00:53.120 --> 00:59.400 Well, I originally started off into looking at being an attorney going into politics. 01:00.400 --> 01:01.400 There's too much work. 01:01.400 --> 01:02.400 There's too much work. 01:02.400 --> 01:03.400 Yeah, too much work. 01:03.400 --> 01:07.920 And, you know, at UW Milwaukee, where I was going, they had a really good criminal justice 01:07.920 --> 01:09.160 program. 01:09.160 --> 01:15.360 And I just got really into, you know, protection, justice and understanding what those things 01:15.360 --> 01:16.360 meant. 01:16.360 --> 01:17.360 Yeah. 01:17.360 --> 01:18.360 And just connect it with it. 01:18.360 --> 01:19.360 Yeah. 01:19.360 --> 01:24.600 And so you knew you wanted to climb that ladder to get to the chief mode of things or? 01:24.600 --> 01:29.000 Well, about two years in after being a police officer said, if I leave this profession, 01:29.000 --> 01:32.840 I want to leave it at a minimum as a mid manager. 01:32.840 --> 01:36.000 And that in most departments is a lieutenant or above. 01:36.000 --> 01:37.000 Yeah. 01:37.000 --> 01:40.800 I love asking people things like, uh, if you had a mission statement for, you know, the 01:40.800 --> 01:46.040 kind of work and the kind of, uh, philosophy you carry with yourself as you do your profession, 01:46.040 --> 01:48.080 what would that be for you, you think? 01:48.080 --> 01:55.800 My mission statement would be that, uh, we are here, here for people and criminal justice 01:55.800 --> 01:57.800 and humanity are one and the same. 01:57.800 --> 01:59.320 And how do we make that work? 01:59.320 --> 02:00.320 Yeah. 02:00.320 --> 02:02.160 And you've been retired now for how long? 02:02.160 --> 02:05.480 I've been retired now for about 12, 13 years. 02:05.480 --> 02:09.240 But I get the impression, you know, work just as much as you did when you were working. 02:09.240 --> 02:10.240 Yes. 02:10.240 --> 02:11.240 Well, why do you stay involved? 02:11.240 --> 02:15.760 I stay involved because, um, it's, it's part of my belief system. 02:15.840 --> 02:22.520 I've still believed that I can have an impact on helping, uh, people see what police officers 02:22.520 --> 02:23.520 see. 02:23.520 --> 02:27.720 I had a unique perspective, uh, not only a unique perspective as a police officer, but 02:27.720 --> 02:30.760 a unique perspective as an African American male. 02:30.760 --> 02:32.800 And also I've been very close to the community. 02:32.800 --> 02:39.160 So bridging those two has been really, uh, really important in my life to ensure that 02:39.160 --> 02:40.160 this continues. 02:40.160 --> 02:41.160 Yeah. 02:41.160 --> 02:44.680 And one of the reasons I think, uh, you and I are sitting here now is because I bumped 02:44.680 --> 02:49.240 into you a few weeks ago, uh, when they opened up the, uh, the, the, the center, the 02:49.240 --> 02:54.920 center, just just to get some context, we're at the, uh, the black business hub, um, here 02:54.920 --> 02:56.720 on Madison, the south side. 02:56.720 --> 03:00.280 And I know you probably have done all kinds of things in this building. 03:00.280 --> 03:01.280 Absolutely. 03:01.280 --> 03:07.440 Uh, on the board, um, also, uh, as, uh, as another member of another board, the Rennebaum 03:07.440 --> 03:11.760 Foundation, we gave, uh, funds for this, for this building. 03:11.760 --> 03:13.000 So this, this is important. 03:13.000 --> 03:18.600 And I also worked as, uh, head of the, uh, Urban Lake as, uh, interim CEO and vice 03:18.600 --> 03:19.600 assistant. 03:19.600 --> 03:20.600 Yeah. 03:20.600 --> 03:21.600 You don't sound retired to me, man. 03:21.600 --> 03:22.600 No. 03:22.600 --> 03:23.600 No. 03:23.600 --> 03:27.240 But one of the things that we were talking, uh, you were telling me about, uh, you, you 03:27.240 --> 03:32.000 have a fellowship with the fellowship of law enforcement people, um, and I found it really 03:32.000 --> 03:36.440 interesting when you talked a little bit about, uh, kind of what you guys do and what the 03:36.440 --> 03:38.040 mission of that organization is. 03:38.040 --> 03:39.880 Why don't you tell us a little bit about that? 03:39.880 --> 03:40.880 Yeah. 03:40.880 --> 03:45.640 There's a fellowship that started two years ago and it was, it involved, uh, retired 03:45.640 --> 03:51.280 law enforcement executives as well as people from the university community, as well as 03:51.280 --> 03:54.160 current, uh, law enforcement professionals. 03:54.160 --> 04:02.040 And what we wanted to do was to look ahead, see what policing was going to be in 2030 04:02.040 --> 04:03.040 and 2050. 04:03.040 --> 04:05.720 Cause there are a number of changes taken place. 04:05.720 --> 04:10.600 One of the areas that we started to focus in on was the area of technology given that 04:10.600 --> 04:15.840 it has had such a major impact in our lives in so many different ways, but specifically 04:15.840 --> 04:17.240 in law enforcement. 04:17.240 --> 04:22.000 So when we say technology, are we speaking specifically to like AI technology? 04:22.000 --> 04:29.120 AI technology, it is impacting every aspect of policing, everything down to how police 04:29.120 --> 04:37.440 reports are done, how surveillance is done, uh, things like body worn cameras, uh, facial 04:37.440 --> 04:44.800 recognition to something as simple as if you've got this information, how do you go to court? 04:44.800 --> 04:47.440 How do you explain this information in court? 04:47.440 --> 04:49.280 Do you have the subject matter experts? 04:49.280 --> 04:50.360 Where are you stored? 04:50.360 --> 04:52.080 Who has access to it? 04:52.080 --> 04:58.400 So this is, this is kind of a quiet revolution that we feel that needs to be discussed more 04:58.400 --> 05:03.440 to make sure that the laws and justice are keeping up with the technology. 05:03.440 --> 05:07.760 And mission wise, what would you say the mission here is is it just simply to educate people? 05:07.760 --> 05:16.120 Our mission is to stimulate or be the catalyst for communities, both state, federal and local, 05:16.120 --> 05:23.200 to start thinking about this in a way where they can kind of shape how, uh, balancing 05:23.200 --> 05:29.120 on one side, public safety, and on another side, privacy, because there's some major privacy 05:29.120 --> 05:33.040 concerns, major, uh, justice concerns. 05:33.040 --> 05:39.760 So the, so our mission was to give guidance, start the conversation on guidance. 05:39.760 --> 05:44.920 What does it look like when you have technology and maintaining trust with the community? 05:44.920 --> 05:53.000 What does it look like when you, you, um, you have, uh, license plate readers, for example, 05:53.000 --> 05:56.840 and do you, do you use that technology for everyone? 05:56.840 --> 05:58.760 Do you use it on certain people? 05:58.760 --> 06:03.360 Uh, do you predict through analysis and data where that's going to go? 06:03.360 --> 06:07.880 Because there's always an impact to any time we do something. 06:07.880 --> 06:12.880 And we also wanted to highlight the fact that even though a lot of this technology is not 06:12.880 --> 06:19.360 only being used in policing, but anytime the government, anytime the government uses this 06:19.440 --> 06:24.520 type of information, there are constitutional principles that must be upheld. 06:24.520 --> 06:30.000 One of which that will probably talk about more and more is the impact on the Fourth Amendment. 06:30.000 --> 06:34.240 Yeah, and the Fourth Amendment that deals with, um, help me out here. 06:34.240 --> 06:35.240 Unreasonable searching. 06:35.240 --> 06:37.240 That's right, searching. 06:37.240 --> 06:42.080 Um, and, um, when I think about, you know, the evolution of technology, and especially 06:42.080 --> 06:47.200 for a person like yourself who's spent 40 years in this industry, uh, it brings back, 06:47.360 --> 06:51.600 you know, I think about the things that, you know, that I've seen just in, in my lifetime, 06:51.600 --> 06:52.600 your lifetime. 06:52.600 --> 06:55.000 Um, I just kind of took some notes here. 06:55.000 --> 07:00.440 Uh, I've, I've seen things on, um, cuffing techniques. 07:00.440 --> 07:08.960 Um, I've seen things on, um, you know, bulletproof vests, changing, uh, body cameras, uh, license 07:08.960 --> 07:14.720 plate readers, um, facial recognition systems. 07:14.760 --> 07:19.720 Uh, what stands out to you in terms of, well, when I started, things were a lot different, 07:19.720 --> 07:20.720 uh, back then. 07:20.720 --> 07:24.920 I mean, they're, uh, most police officers were using revolvers. 07:24.920 --> 07:30.760 Uh, you had to take your time and put the, the round in, in the gun. 07:30.760 --> 07:35.680 Um, uh, there were no, like a musket, are you talking like a, like a musket, like a musket? 07:35.680 --> 07:39.200 You know, uh, bulletproof vests were just coming into their own. 07:39.200 --> 07:45.960 Now what you see is, uh, you see, uh, vests that are worn on the exterior with all kinds 07:45.960 --> 07:52.880 of different things on it, uh, from, from lights to maybe a second handgun to extra rounds 07:52.880 --> 07:54.480 and things like that. 07:54.480 --> 07:59.000 We didn't even have trauma plates and a trauma plate was really important because a trauma 07:59.000 --> 08:06.560 plate is what is on a bulletproof vests that when the round hits the, uh, bulletproof vest 08:06.560 --> 08:11.960 that it, it reduces the damage to the heart because that's a, that's a major impact. 08:11.960 --> 08:13.680 We didn't even have those kind of things. 08:13.680 --> 08:18.680 Of course we didn't have the great uniforms where we're wearing polyester. 08:18.680 --> 08:24.400 Everyone had to wear, uh, you know, the three, uh, the, the, the police cap. 08:24.400 --> 08:27.280 There were no baseball caps that was not allowed. 08:27.280 --> 08:34.320 Um, and so it was, it almost, it's almost laughable now what we have available to us 08:34.800 --> 08:37.120 than what we, what we do right now. 08:37.120 --> 08:38.120 Yeah. 08:38.120 --> 08:42.480 And those tools are really, every time something comes out, I guess the, the whole idea is 08:42.480 --> 08:47.800 that it's, it makes law enforcement and enforcing the law is easier or is that the home? 08:47.800 --> 08:53.840 The, the, the tools should make, uh, community safer, law enforcement easier, uh, but it 08:53.840 --> 09:00.880 still comes down to even back then, the tools that you use the most was a pad of paper and 09:00.880 --> 09:02.640 a pencil to get information. 09:02.640 --> 09:07.120 The tool that you use the most was talking and engaging with citizens. 09:07.120 --> 09:08.400 That is transcended. 09:08.400 --> 09:09.400 That will never change. 09:09.400 --> 09:13.880 I was going to say, and do you think we've moved too far away from that because of technology? 09:13.880 --> 09:17.000 I think the risk is there. 09:17.000 --> 09:24.080 And what I'm hoping is that we're starting to create awareness on that we don't lose 09:24.080 --> 09:30.280 those things, things like building trust with community, things like, you know, are we operating 09:30.280 --> 09:33.560 in a bias in non-transparent manner? 09:33.560 --> 09:37.720 Are we listening to people when there are complaints? 09:37.720 --> 09:42.800 Those are some of the things that I hope that we don't use, lose the empathy for people. 09:42.800 --> 09:49.640 Um, when you have like think, like technology, one of the things that you lose at times with 09:49.640 --> 09:53.160 technology is that it is an objective standard. 09:53.160 --> 09:59.280 You know, you see the video, you see DNA, you see, you know, you see things that are there 09:59.280 --> 10:07.600 and, but in policing, subjectivity, discretion, humility, empathy and trust, those are the 10:07.600 --> 10:12.440 hallmarks that are in behind good policing in America. 10:12.440 --> 10:16.520 So then when I, you think about some of the things that you see out there now, especially 10:16.520 --> 10:22.080 with all the social media things that are out there and you'll see things that are very 10:22.080 --> 10:27.400 easily manipulated, um, at almost the point where you look at something and you have to 10:27.400 --> 10:31.480 ask yourself, is that real? 10:31.480 --> 10:36.200 It seems like there needs to be and should be some sort of a balance between, you know, 10:36.200 --> 10:40.640 the technology and the person that's managing that technology. 10:40.640 --> 10:42.120 How do you see that? 10:42.120 --> 10:49.320 This is something that I think communities, law enforcement need to get together on. 10:49.320 --> 11:00.240 As well as the manufacturers of technology, you can have a video that will give a false 11:00.240 --> 11:01.240 negative. 11:01.240 --> 11:09.520 Still, we have not resolved this idea of women of color in small children showing a pretty 11:09.520 --> 11:15.280 good high percentage of false positives when we're looking at surveillance video, facial 11:15.280 --> 11:16.560 recognition. 11:16.560 --> 11:21.040 So those are some things that we should always be concerned about. 11:21.040 --> 11:25.080 What kind of thing would cause something like that to be happening, you think? 11:25.080 --> 11:31.440 It is, it is, it is, it is the technology and when you talk to the experts in the field, 11:31.440 --> 11:36.800 the ones that are not only the experts in the field but the ones that are producing this, 11:36.800 --> 11:39.000 they have not resolved that. 11:39.000 --> 11:45.760 However, one of the things that you always have to be mindful of is that even the manufacturers, 11:45.760 --> 11:48.440 all human beings have implicit biases. 11:48.440 --> 11:53.320 So sometimes those implicit biases can come through through the manufacturer's work. 11:53.320 --> 11:58.640 Sometimes the implicit biases can come through through how the technology is deployed. 11:58.640 --> 12:02.040 What's your, what's your simple way of how you would describe what an implicit bias is? 12:02.040 --> 12:06.360 Because I think some people don't understand what that is sometimes. 12:06.360 --> 12:16.120 This bias is a, is a bias that is, that is not overt, it is not necessarily animus. 12:16.120 --> 12:24.600 It is those things that we do subconsciously, that we may not be aware of, but it adversely 12:24.600 --> 12:26.480 affects our behavior. 12:26.480 --> 12:33.320 It adversely affects how we do things, how we make judgments and how we perceive things. 12:33.320 --> 12:35.000 So that's how it impacts police. 12:35.000 --> 12:36.800 It's like a prejudgment kind of thing. 12:36.800 --> 12:41.960 It's a prejudgment, it's a prejudge of what we do and what we see. 12:41.960 --> 12:45.680 That person's overweight, so that person likes to eat a lot and it's not true and it's not 12:45.680 --> 12:46.680 true. 12:46.680 --> 12:47.680 Absolutely. 12:47.680 --> 12:55.080 And the 800 pound gorilla in the United States is implicit bias based upon race. 12:55.080 --> 12:56.360 That's the 800 pound gorilla. 12:56.360 --> 12:58.320 That's what everyone focuses on. 12:58.320 --> 13:07.800 But as you just mentioned, weight, age, language, height, all of those things, we prejudge. 13:07.800 --> 13:13.800 And the one that we, we prejudge that we, we need to really get a handle on and as those 13:13.800 --> 13:18.240 are the social economic factors, sometimes they cut across all of those categories. 13:18.240 --> 13:24.000 When we see someone that is homeless, looks destitute, we, we in our, in the back of 13:24.000 --> 13:27.080 our minds develop a detachment. 13:27.080 --> 13:31.840 There are some telltale signs, some, some watchouts for implicit bias. 13:31.840 --> 13:39.320 One is if you start to see a group of people and thinking all of them do something a certain 13:39.320 --> 13:42.560 way or everyone does it this way. 13:42.560 --> 13:46.920 Those are, those are things that you may want to do a self check because every human being 13:46.920 --> 13:51.840 is different and when you start to include everyone and saying everyone does it a certain 13:51.840 --> 13:57.640 way, that's when you become susceptible to treating people differently and prejudging. 13:57.640 --> 14:00.560 It sounds dangerous to policing, is it? 14:00.560 --> 14:01.720 It is dangerous. 14:01.720 --> 14:09.280 And it is dangerous because you can prejudge, I remember as, as a, as a, as a rookie cop, 14:09.280 --> 14:16.840 prejudging a situation where because it was a female involved, I assume that she did not 14:16.840 --> 14:19.920 have a weapon, that she was not a threat. 14:19.960 --> 14:26.720 But I have run into encounters where a female was involved and they had a weapon and they 14:26.720 --> 14:29.080 were as just as much as a threat. 14:29.080 --> 14:33.280 But I was prejudging the situation and that placed me at danger. 14:33.280 --> 14:37.720 You have to evaluate the situation based upon what you have. 14:37.720 --> 14:43.800 That is called individualized suspicion and making sure that you're calculating place, 14:43.800 --> 14:48.920 size, manner, how the person departs himself, how they're looking at you and always more 14:48.920 --> 14:51.120 importantly, where their hands are. 14:51.120 --> 14:52.120 Yeah. 14:52.120 --> 14:58.520 And when we talk about implicit bias in humans, is there such a thing when it comes to technology, 14:58.520 --> 15:02.200 especially AI technology and how it's being facilitated? 15:02.200 --> 15:05.160 Yes, in a number of different ways. 15:05.160 --> 15:09.040 One, implicit bias can come through in how it's deployed. 15:09.040 --> 15:10.800 Let me give you an example. 15:10.800 --> 15:20.800 If I start off and I deploy, say, cameras in an area that are license plate readers and 15:20.800 --> 15:26.800 I deploy that base upon, I've got information that there's a higher incidence of people 15:26.800 --> 15:29.120 violating certain things. 15:29.120 --> 15:35.240 That may be true at the beginning, but if I don't come back and check that, that camera 15:35.240 --> 15:40.760 can start to produce a self-fulfilling prophecy because what will happen is that it will continue 15:40.760 --> 15:45.880 to see the same people and that will continue even though it may have changed, that that's 15:45.880 --> 15:50.560 not the highest area, the highest percentage of it, but because they're taking that information, 15:50.560 --> 15:53.840 we're looking at saying, oh, this is the highest percentage. 15:53.840 --> 16:02.480 The other way that it can become an implicit bias is how it is designed. 16:02.480 --> 16:04.640 What is it designed to pick up on? 16:04.640 --> 16:10.400 What are the features and what are the locations and what are the things that it is designed 16:10.400 --> 16:12.520 to do? 16:12.520 --> 16:19.040 That gets a bit complicated and I don't know if I can get into it in this particular moment, 16:19.040 --> 16:25.400 but again, highlighting one of the telltale signs is any time there is like a predictive 16:25.400 --> 16:31.440 analysis that takes place before it is deployed, that's when you should start taking a closer 16:31.440 --> 16:38.240 look at is there a bias inherent because that's when discretion is used, human discretion. 16:38.240 --> 16:40.640 This time is always opens up human error. 16:40.640 --> 16:44.600 Yeah, I can't resist this, but you and I joked earlier before we kind of began this interview 16:44.600 --> 16:50.360 about the red cup and I told you a story about me going to a badger game when I first moved 16:50.360 --> 16:55.520 here and I had water in my red cup and the police officer made me put it out because 16:55.520 --> 16:59.200 they assumed that it might be liquor in there. 16:59.200 --> 17:01.560 Is that an implicit bias? 17:01.560 --> 17:06.640 The fact that I have a red cup that there is something in there other than water? 17:06.640 --> 17:12.200 That implicit bias can come in so many ways and I'll say the reason why it's complicated. 17:12.200 --> 17:17.120 One is why did they select you to even ask you that question. 17:17.120 --> 17:23.600 Just because a cup is red, there's no reason to believe, there's not 100% reason to believe 17:23.600 --> 17:24.600 that. 17:24.600 --> 17:30.960 But when if someone is operating on this principle that any and all people with red cups have 17:30.960 --> 17:34.280 liquor in it, they have prejudged a situation. 17:34.280 --> 17:36.200 That's what I felt. 17:36.200 --> 17:42.960 So that leads to problematic policing. 17:42.960 --> 17:50.280 And so what we would ask that police officer to do is review what they do, ask themselves 17:50.280 --> 17:59.200 some questions, but for this person having the red cup, would I have contacted them? 17:59.200 --> 18:06.160 What for believing that every person with a red cup has liquor in it? 18:06.160 --> 18:12.840 Would I have done what I did and what I have contacted this person? 18:12.840 --> 18:14.960 Those are the questions that we can do it. 18:14.960 --> 18:16.280 They're good people. 18:16.280 --> 18:17.800 All people have implicit biases. 18:17.800 --> 18:18.840 They're good people. 18:18.840 --> 18:27.080 The thing is we are bound to provide service in a fair and impartial manner. 18:27.080 --> 18:31.200 So that's the difference between a police officer or someone in government and just 18:31.200 --> 18:38.080 an everyday person, because I have the right to take away your freedom as a police officer, 18:38.080 --> 18:45.000 because I can use force up to including, physical force up to including, unfortunately, the 18:45.000 --> 18:47.080 potential of taking your life. 18:47.080 --> 18:55.760 I have that constitutional, that burden of being, it's not a burden, it is what we take 18:55.760 --> 19:04.760 that oath for to do it in a way where I'm a guardian of democracy and not trying to 19:04.760 --> 19:10.960 get away with something or trying to be overbearing and tyrannical on those things. 19:10.960 --> 19:16.560 It's an awesome power, but it's only awesome when it's used correctly. 19:16.560 --> 19:17.560 Yeah. 19:17.560 --> 19:25.040 And you talked about license plate readers, tools that are used to kind of gather information 19:25.040 --> 19:32.840 during our pre-interview, you know, I learned about this technique called, is it the flocking? 19:32.840 --> 19:33.840 What? 19:33.840 --> 19:35.640 Explain what that is. 19:35.640 --> 19:42.320 A flock camera is a camera that is deployed in certain parts of a particular geographic 19:42.320 --> 19:43.480 area. 19:43.480 --> 19:49.080 And what it does is it picks up information and it goes back to a certain point. 19:49.080 --> 19:51.880 Many times it's a command center. 19:51.880 --> 19:56.040 What it does is it reads license plates, it reads information about it. 19:56.040 --> 20:00.520 And depending upon the technology, they're starting to be able to pick up and extract 20:00.520 --> 20:04.400 more information from that. 20:04.400 --> 20:12.240 But it can pick up by reading a plate, does this person have a violation that has this 20:12.240 --> 20:18.760 person been previously, I mean, does this person have warrants out for their arrest? 20:18.760 --> 20:21.400 All of that type of information is there. 20:21.400 --> 20:25.880 So the question with flock cameras really comes down to this. 20:25.880 --> 20:32.920 Are they there to be used after the fact when we say a crime was committed? 20:32.920 --> 20:37.640 Then they come back and they look at it and says, yeah, this person was driving in this 20:37.640 --> 20:43.680 area at this particular time, this is what a crime was committed. 20:43.680 --> 20:48.600 I think people probably have a better feel for that. 20:48.600 --> 20:57.000 It's just like the bombing incident in Boston with a marathon. 20:57.000 --> 21:01.240 They went back and they started checking the cameras and they could start to push together 21:01.240 --> 21:02.240 things. 21:02.240 --> 21:05.680 I think most citizens understand that use. 21:05.680 --> 21:10.920 Where it becomes a question is proactively how it is used. 21:10.920 --> 21:17.520 So if I'm using this information and then I act on it, even if you have not committed 21:17.520 --> 21:22.280 a crime right then and there, I go knock on your door and say, hey, you came through 21:22.280 --> 21:25.880 this intersection at such and such a date and time. 21:25.880 --> 21:27.600 This is a potential. 21:27.600 --> 21:31.920 And based upon the information we have, you have a warrant for your arrest. 21:31.920 --> 21:39.240 So people ask those questions or you were here and you're being surveilled now. 21:39.240 --> 21:41.800 People complain about the issues of privacy. 21:41.800 --> 21:42.800 Yeah. 21:42.800 --> 21:46.360 And what's done with that information once it's gathered, what happens to it at that? 21:46.360 --> 21:49.400 That's another issue. 21:49.400 --> 21:56.880 In most states, information has been historically treated in their laws that govern. 21:56.880 --> 21:59.120 How long you can maintain a record. 21:59.120 --> 22:00.680 Where does the information go? 22:00.680 --> 22:02.760 Who has access to it? 22:02.760 --> 22:10.080 So one of the other concerns that communities need to wrestle with is that if a third party 22:10.080 --> 22:16.160 has data and information and if the government has access to that, have they made that third 22:16.160 --> 22:22.960 party become a de facto part of the government because they're accessing their information. 22:22.960 --> 22:24.880 But where's that stored? 22:24.880 --> 22:27.160 What information do they have on you? 22:27.160 --> 22:31.160 Don't you have a right to know what your government has on you? 22:31.160 --> 22:34.640 These are questions that communities really do need to wrestle with. 22:34.640 --> 22:35.640 Yeah. 22:35.640 --> 22:41.480 And we know that some law enforcement agencies, departments around the state have been moving 22:41.480 --> 22:43.040 away from that system. 22:43.040 --> 22:46.120 Why do you think it's so controversial and why would they? 22:46.120 --> 22:47.800 Move away from it, you think? 22:47.800 --> 22:57.760 I think, first of all, I think it was developed in many instances to improve public safety. 22:57.760 --> 23:01.280 I'm not going to conclude that that was not the reason. 23:01.280 --> 23:07.520 But I think that right now we're behind the curve. 23:07.520 --> 23:15.520 We are behind the curve because we have not, as a community, provided what they should 23:15.520 --> 23:16.960 be used for. 23:16.960 --> 23:18.720 What are the standards? 23:18.720 --> 23:23.640 What are the standards of privacy that that community accepts? 23:23.640 --> 23:26.040 How should the police department use it? 23:26.040 --> 23:31.120 Some communities have gone and what they've done is that they've pulled together stakeholders 23:31.120 --> 23:35.320 and they've discussed from every branch. 23:35.320 --> 23:40.920 They've pulled together people that are community members, civil liberties. 23:40.920 --> 23:45.760 They've pulled together people that are subject matter experts, the manufacturers. 23:45.760 --> 23:49.080 And they have come up with some broad guidelines. 23:49.080 --> 23:54.320 And then the community starts to lay out for law enforcement. 23:54.320 --> 23:55.560 Here's some policies. 23:55.560 --> 23:57.240 Here are some procedures. 23:57.240 --> 23:59.840 Here's some ordinances that we think would work. 23:59.840 --> 24:03.080 And they all have to be constantly improved. 24:03.080 --> 24:07.640 But right now, we're behind the eight ball because we have not done that. 24:07.640 --> 24:13.360 And so we're reaching for this technology before we know it's total impact and we're 24:13.360 --> 24:15.960 using it before we know the total impact. 24:15.960 --> 24:23.080 One of the numbers I heard don't quote me, but I went to a seminar last summer and talked 24:23.080 --> 24:26.240 about AI and how it was being used. 24:26.240 --> 24:32.600 And I think at that time they were saying that it's only correct 80% of the time. 24:32.600 --> 24:37.680 And so is it okay for something that's wrong 20% of the time? 24:37.680 --> 24:40.560 Is it okay to use that as a tool? 24:40.560 --> 24:48.600 So how do you weigh the value it brings in terms of what it brings to law enforcement 24:48.600 --> 24:57.440 versus the problem that creates from it being used improperly by the humans that control 24:57.440 --> 24:59.840 it? 24:59.840 --> 25:02.840 It's a very complex question but a good one. 25:02.840 --> 25:04.840 So I gave you an example of a fly camera. 25:04.840 --> 25:08.760 If someone is wanted for murder, you want that person off the street. 25:08.760 --> 25:11.080 You want that fly camera to be able to pick that up. 25:11.080 --> 25:14.480 But let me give you an example that happens every day. 25:14.480 --> 25:24.880 One, if you go on a cruise ship, your picture is taken, okay, and that could be used in 25:24.880 --> 25:25.880 other ways. 25:25.880 --> 25:29.880 Do you think most people assume and understand that that's happening wherever they go now? 25:29.880 --> 25:30.880 No, they don't. 25:30.880 --> 25:31.880 They don't. 25:31.880 --> 25:38.200 I don't think they understand that the government can at times they can decide the subpoena 25:38.200 --> 25:43.360 that private entity could decide to give it to them. 25:43.360 --> 25:44.640 They don't know that. 25:44.640 --> 25:49.760 But that to me can be more problematic. 25:49.760 --> 25:54.800 However, in answering to your question, sometimes it's situational. 25:54.800 --> 25:58.960 They do the same thing, many instances, if you get on a flight. 25:58.960 --> 26:03.720 But because the risk of a person getting on that flight and that plane coming down, if 26:03.720 --> 26:09.320 that person takes that plane down, you're willing to take more of a risk. 26:09.320 --> 26:16.280 You're willing to give up more of your privacy if the risk is higher or if it's effective 26:16.280 --> 26:19.000 and it's important to save lives. 26:19.000 --> 26:24.080 If it's not doing those things, you're going, well, why am I giving up my privacy just 26:24.080 --> 26:25.080 for this? 26:25.080 --> 26:29.640 So, those are some of the things that we have to balance. 26:29.640 --> 26:34.720 Are we just doing it because it's convenient for a particular industry or convenient for 26:34.720 --> 26:37.320 police? 26:37.320 --> 26:38.320 So that's one. 26:38.320 --> 26:45.080 One of the things I do want to mention that I think really quickly is there is an economics 26:45.080 --> 26:50.200 to this that is important for people to understand. 26:50.200 --> 26:58.720 There are agencies now that are sending calls, sending drones to calls to assess the situation. 26:58.720 --> 27:06.520 And then once they assess it, they may decide to deploy police or police officer or not. 27:06.520 --> 27:11.080 It can be and all of these have very positive impacts. 27:11.080 --> 27:14.080 That's why it needs that scrutiny. 27:14.160 --> 27:23.760 However, you flip that over and do you start to say, well, it's cheaper to have the drone 27:23.760 --> 27:32.440 do it than to have police officers who have to pay insurance, salary, benefits and all 27:32.440 --> 27:33.720 those other things. 27:33.720 --> 27:39.080 Now, those are major questions because we have grown accustomed to having human beings 27:39.080 --> 27:46.720 and it should always be making decisions about arrest who gets the citation. 27:46.720 --> 27:48.920 What are the mitigating circumstances? 27:48.920 --> 27:53.560 I don't want to know which one is going to give me the best intelligence. 27:53.560 --> 27:58.600 You may want to know who's going to give you the best intelligence and I believe it's 27:58.600 --> 28:00.760 a police officer. 28:00.760 --> 28:07.560 The technology will give you the information, but the police officer will add those things 28:07.560 --> 28:11.160 that you can't ever add with that. 28:11.160 --> 28:19.880 Yeah, but can a drone talk a person down from a hostage situation or whatever that circumstance 28:19.880 --> 28:20.880 is? 28:20.880 --> 28:22.040 There just has to be a human element. 28:22.040 --> 28:26.040 There has to be a human element to be able to do those things. 28:26.040 --> 28:33.320 There has to be a human element to understand the context, to understand that human being, 28:33.320 --> 28:34.600 where they're coming from. 28:34.680 --> 28:39.760 To understand a particular area, you can have someone, you can have people violating 28:39.760 --> 28:44.520 park laws every night and that drone will pick up on it and they'll say, this is a problem 28:44.520 --> 28:45.880 you're violating that. 28:45.880 --> 28:52.000 What they may not know is that a store may have closed and this may be the only drug 28:52.000 --> 28:56.960 store open at night and people are violating that just to get to that drug store. 28:57.040 --> 29:05.840 You do need human beings to assess these things because just because something is wrong, 29:05.840 --> 29:12.160 the criminal justice system may not always be the correct way to deal with it and it 29:12.160 --> 29:14.120 takes judgment. 29:14.120 --> 29:18.240 That's why justice is not blind. 29:18.240 --> 29:19.680 Justice is blind folded. 29:19.680 --> 29:26.000 That means that human beings have to do things to be able to make sure that justice is needed 29:26.000 --> 29:30.200 out in an equal and fair way. 29:30.200 --> 29:32.240 That's why Lady Justice has that. 29:32.240 --> 29:33.400 That's why the balance is there. 29:33.400 --> 29:36.080 You have to balance the scale with empathy. 29:36.080 --> 29:40.280 You have to balance the scale with a whole host of issues that someone has surrounded 29:40.280 --> 29:41.280 with. 29:41.280 --> 29:45.000 These are things technology can't do. 29:45.000 --> 29:51.640 I don't think that we want a world right now where technology is making those decisions, 29:51.640 --> 29:56.440 just like no one wants a world that we're constantly being surveilled. 29:56.440 --> 30:06.080 And speaking of the human influence on things, whose job is it to determine how these tools 30:06.080 --> 30:13.600 are implemented, is it the law enforcement agency, is it the community, is it state officials, 30:13.600 --> 30:16.760 whose job is it to say, you know, this is a good idea. 30:16.760 --> 30:22.200 We should have a robot that decides that, hey, camera one, camera two, those guys might 30:22.200 --> 30:26.160 do something suspicious in a month and we need to be ready for it. 30:26.160 --> 30:32.920 Like whose job is it to choose where the, you know, that kind of, you know, superficial 30:32.920 --> 30:35.240 technology has been used, I guess. 30:35.240 --> 30:39.720 I think it is the stakeholders of the community. 30:39.720 --> 30:41.200 Is that the people? 30:41.200 --> 30:43.080 That is the people. 30:43.080 --> 30:49.280 That is, that is the ones that are the manufacturers, there's the civil rights leaders, there's 30:49.280 --> 30:51.240 government, government. 30:51.240 --> 30:56.480 But the distinction here is that government has to lead on this one because we're talking 30:56.480 --> 30:58.320 about government issues. 30:58.320 --> 31:04.360 Well, some people are concerned about the government because they take the data and use 31:04.360 --> 31:09.880 it in ways that some of them don't even know about. 31:10.360 --> 31:18.800 When government undermines trust, when they're not using it in a way of honesty, character, 31:18.800 --> 31:23.000 competence, when they don't have the competent in that using the right way, they've undermined 31:23.000 --> 31:24.000 trust. 31:24.000 --> 31:29.160 So, I can't speak, I'm not speaking to a government that is not working. 31:29.160 --> 31:35.160 I am being aspirational, talk about if a government is working, they should take the lead. 31:35.160 --> 31:37.160 They should bring people together. 31:37.800 --> 31:44.160 They should bring all of the key stakeholders together and decide these key points of privacy, 31:44.160 --> 31:51.640 of things like, you know, public safety, of trust, of all of this because all of those 31:51.640 --> 31:57.400 things are right there, you know, the cost-benefit analysis of having a drone do it or a person 31:57.400 --> 31:58.400 do it. 31:58.400 --> 32:03.240 All of those things are key to providing public safety in this country. 32:03.240 --> 32:06.720 Yeah, I want to get this question here before we wrap up. 32:06.760 --> 32:13.760 I mentioned Big Brother earlier, you know, I think people understand that, you know, 32:13.760 --> 32:20.960 we're always, there's a camera on us, on corners and grocery stores, elevators, you 32:20.960 --> 32:23.840 name it, is that a good thing? 32:23.840 --> 32:31.800 I don't think so, because for two reasons, one, and I know everyone has cameras, it's 32:31.840 --> 32:37.120 not just government, but I don't think it's a good thing because it creates an environment 32:37.120 --> 32:41.120 where we assume that people are wrong. 32:41.120 --> 32:46.560 It creates a surveillance mentality that people have to prove themselves right. 32:46.560 --> 32:54.120 One of the major principles of this country is that you are right until you are innocent 32:54.120 --> 32:55.960 until proven guilty. 32:55.960 --> 33:00.400 Under these circumstances, if you're constantly under surveillance and something comes up, 33:00.400 --> 33:03.560 you have to prove yourself innocent. 33:03.560 --> 33:10.440 If you show up as a false positive on a camera and you were there and you were false positive, 33:10.440 --> 33:14.000 you're going to have to prove that you didn't do it. 33:14.000 --> 33:25.000 And that turns the whole dynamic of some things that for 250 years was important to this country. 33:25.440 --> 33:31.360 And that's shifting, that constant surveillance. 33:31.360 --> 33:37.840 And I also want to ask you, what do you see as the biggest threat to policing? 33:37.840 --> 33:43.920 And what do you see as the biggest threat to the community and how it's policed? 33:43.920 --> 33:54.560 Biggest threat to policing is if somehow we cannot get the entire apparatus of government 33:54.560 --> 34:00.840 to start working on these issues because the police will be left out there hanging 34:00.840 --> 34:06.200 because the community will ask, I need for you to keep my community safe. 34:06.200 --> 34:10.240 But then when they keep the community safe and they make a mistake, 34:10.240 --> 34:14.280 then they're going to say, well, you're using technology too much. 34:14.280 --> 34:20.840 So the police, as the ones that are delivering this service, that will be on their, 34:20.840 --> 34:26.360 that will, they will carry the burden of having to deal with all of these issues. 34:26.360 --> 34:33.120 So it's important that if you have a law enforcement agency in your jurisdiction that you help them 34:33.120 --> 34:38.920 and you pull together these resources to do that, what was the second question again? 34:38.920 --> 34:42.440 What's the biggest threat to the community that's being policed? 34:42.440 --> 34:50.680 The biggest, biggest threat to the community that's being policed is that we lose our faith 34:50.680 --> 34:59.920 in humanity, that we start to believe that we live in a society, that everyone is a criminal. 34:59.920 --> 35:05.400 People commit crimes at a very low rate when it's all sitting down. 35:05.400 --> 35:11.600 We should not design systems solely for the purpose of catching people. 35:11.600 --> 35:17.600 We should design systems for keeping the community safe, albeit, which is very important. 35:17.600 --> 35:23.280 But we should also design systems that do the right thing and help people 35:23.280 --> 35:28.280 and help community stay safe while maintaining the public trust. 35:28.280 --> 35:31.600 Yeah, and I'm going to get you to look into your crystal ball on this one. 35:31.600 --> 35:37.640 What is the future, I consider we're here now, but what does the future of law enforcement look like 35:37.640 --> 35:39.440 in terms of technology and how it's being used? 35:39.440 --> 35:42.400 What do you see, what's going to be the next big to do? 35:42.400 --> 35:48.480 That's a tough one because just as I sit here, if I go back three years, 35:48.480 --> 35:54.240 everything that was related to technology has just expanded like you would not believe. 35:54.240 --> 35:56.240 It is growing so rapidly. 35:56.240 --> 36:04.080 We've got data centers that are powering algorithms that we could never imagine before. 36:04.160 --> 36:14.400 So it is hard to predict what's going to happen, but we must try, if we can, to keep this human 36:14.400 --> 36:17.120 centered, justice must be human centered. 36:18.400 --> 36:21.360 From one human to another, no worry, thanks for stopping by. 36:21.360 --> 36:22.960 Thank you very much, I appreciate it. 36:22.960 --> 36:24.160 Appreciate you.