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Thank you very much.

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Glad to be here.

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Hey, you and I have not seen each other since we did the Wisconsin and Black and White

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Project.

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Thank you for your service on that.

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Oh, thank you.

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It was really good.

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Yeah.

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And for a lot of folks that don't know, you're a former police chief.

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You've been in law enforcement for, um, now 40 years.

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40 years.

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Wow.

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And give me a little snapshot of what made you go into law enforcement.

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What was it about law enforcement that made you say I'd like to commit my life to that?

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Well, I originally started off into looking at being an attorney going into politics.

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There's too much work.

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There's too much work.

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Yeah, too much work.

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And, you know, at UW Milwaukee, where I was going, they had a really good criminal justice

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program.

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And I just got really into, you know, protection, justice and understanding what those things

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meant.

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Yeah.

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And just connect it with it.

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Yeah.

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And so you knew you wanted to climb that ladder to get to the chief mode of things or?

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Well, about two years in after being a police officer said, if I leave this profession,

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I want to leave it at a minimum as a mid manager.

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And that in most departments is a lieutenant or above.

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Yeah.

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I love asking people things like, uh, if you had a mission statement for, you know, the

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kind of work and the kind of, uh, philosophy you carry with yourself as you do your profession,

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what would that be for you, you think?

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My mission statement would be that, uh, we are here, here for people and criminal justice

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and humanity are one and the same.

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And how do we make that work?

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Yeah.

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And you've been retired now for how long?

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I've been retired now for about 12, 13 years.

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But I get the impression, you know, work just as much as you did when you were working.

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Yes.

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Well, why do you stay involved?

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I stay involved because, um, it's, it's part of my belief system.

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I've still believed that I can have an impact on helping, uh, people see what police officers

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see.

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I had a unique perspective, uh, not only a unique perspective as a police officer, but

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a unique perspective as an African American male.

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And also I've been very close to the community.

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So bridging those two has been really, uh, really important in my life to ensure that

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this continues.

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Yeah.

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And one of the reasons I think, uh, you and I are sitting here now is because I bumped

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into you a few weeks ago, uh, when they opened up the, uh, the, the, the center, the

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center, just just to get some context, we're at the, uh, the black business hub, um, here

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on Madison, the south side.

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And I know you probably have done all kinds of things in this building.

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Absolutely.

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Uh, on the board, um, also, uh, as, uh, as another member of another board, the Rennebaum

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Foundation, we gave, uh, funds for this, for this building.

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So this, this is important.

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And I also worked as, uh, head of the, uh, Urban Lake as, uh, interim CEO and vice

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assistant.

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Yeah.

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You don't sound retired to me, man.

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No.

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No.

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But one of the things that we were talking, uh, you were telling me about, uh, you, you

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have a fellowship with the fellowship of law enforcement people, um, and I found it really

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interesting when you talked a little bit about, uh, kind of what you guys do and what the

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mission of that organization is.

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Why don't you tell us a little bit about that?

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Yeah.

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There's a fellowship that started two years ago and it was, it involved, uh, retired

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law enforcement executives as well as people from the university community, as well as

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current, uh, law enforcement professionals.

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And what we wanted to do was to look ahead, see what policing was going to be in 2030

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and 2050.

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Cause there are a number of changes taken place.

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One of the areas that we started to focus in on was the area of technology given that

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it has had such a major impact in our lives in so many different ways, but specifically

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in law enforcement.

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So when we say technology, are we speaking specifically to like AI technology?

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AI technology, it is impacting every aspect of policing, everything down to how police

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reports are done, how surveillance is done, uh, things like body worn cameras, uh, facial

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recognition to something as simple as if you've got this information, how do you go to court?

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How do you explain this information in court?

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Do you have the subject matter experts?

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Where are you stored?

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Who has access to it?

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So this is, this is kind of a quiet revolution that we feel that needs to be discussed more

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to make sure that the laws and justice are keeping up with the technology.

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And mission wise, what would you say the mission here is is it just simply to educate people?

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Our mission is to stimulate or be the catalyst for communities, both state, federal and local,

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to start thinking about this in a way where they can kind of shape how, uh, balancing

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on one side, public safety, and on another side, privacy, because there's some major privacy

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concerns, major, uh, justice concerns.

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So the, so our mission was to give guidance, start the conversation on guidance.

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What does it look like when you have technology and maintaining trust with the community?

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What does it look like when you, you, um, you have, uh, license plate readers, for example,

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and do you, do you use that technology for everyone?

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Do you use it on certain people?

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Uh, do you predict through analysis and data where that's going to go?

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Because there's always an impact to any time we do something.

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And we also wanted to highlight the fact that even though a lot of this technology is not

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only being used in policing, but anytime the government, anytime the government uses this

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type of information, there are constitutional principles that must be upheld.

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One of which that will probably talk about more and more is the impact on the Fourth Amendment.

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Yeah, and the Fourth Amendment that deals with, um, help me out here.

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Unreasonable searching.

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That's right, searching.

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Um, and, um, when I think about, you know, the evolution of technology, and especially

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for a person like yourself who's spent 40 years in this industry, uh, it brings back,

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you know, I think about the things that, you know, that I've seen just in, in my lifetime,

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your lifetime.

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Um, I just kind of took some notes here.

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Uh, I've, I've seen things on, um, cuffing techniques.

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Um, I've seen things on, um, you know, bulletproof vests, changing, uh, body cameras, uh, license

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plate readers, um, facial recognition systems.

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Uh, what stands out to you in terms of, well, when I started, things were a lot different,

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uh, back then.

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I mean, they're, uh, most police officers were using revolvers.

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Uh, you had to take your time and put the, the round in, in the gun.

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Um, uh, there were no, like a musket, are you talking like a, like a musket, like a musket?

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You know, uh, bulletproof vests were just coming into their own.

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Now what you see is, uh, you see, uh, vests that are worn on the exterior with all kinds

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of different things on it, uh, from, from lights to maybe a second handgun to extra rounds

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and things like that.

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We didn't even have trauma plates and a trauma plate was really important because a trauma

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plate is what is on a bulletproof vests that when the round hits the, uh, bulletproof vest

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that it, it reduces the damage to the heart because that's a, that's a major impact.

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We didn't even have those kind of things.

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Of course we didn't have the great uniforms where we're wearing polyester.

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Everyone had to wear, uh, you know, the three, uh, the, the, the police cap.

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There were no baseball caps that was not allowed.

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Um, and so it was, it almost, it's almost laughable now what we have available to us

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than what we, what we do right now.

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Yeah.

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And those tools are really, every time something comes out, I guess the, the whole idea is

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that it's, it makes law enforcement and enforcing the law is easier or is that the home?

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The, the, the tools should make, uh, community safer, law enforcement easier, uh, but it

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still comes down to even back then, the tools that you use the most was a pad of paper and

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a pencil to get information.

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The tool that you use the most was talking and engaging with citizens.

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That is transcended.

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That will never change.

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I was going to say, and do you think we've moved too far away from that because of technology?

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I think the risk is there.

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And what I'm hoping is that we're starting to create awareness on that we don't lose

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those things, things like building trust with community, things like, you know, are we operating

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in a bias in non-transparent manner?

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Are we listening to people when there are complaints?

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Those are some of the things that I hope that we don't use, lose the empathy for people.

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Um, when you have like think, like technology, one of the things that you lose at times with

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technology is that it is an objective standard.

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You know, you see the video, you see DNA, you see, you know, you see things that are there

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and, but in policing, subjectivity, discretion, humility, empathy and trust, those are the

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hallmarks that are in behind good policing in America.

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So then when I, you think about some of the things that you see out there now, especially

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with all the social media things that are out there and you'll see things that are very

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easily manipulated, um, at almost the point where you look at something and you have to

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ask yourself, is that real?

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It seems like there needs to be and should be some sort of a balance between, you know,

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the technology and the person that's managing that technology.

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How do you see that?

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This is something that I think communities, law enforcement need to get together on.

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As well as the manufacturers of technology, you can have a video that will give a false

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negative.

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Still, we have not resolved this idea of women of color in small children showing a pretty

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good high percentage of false positives when we're looking at surveillance video, facial

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recognition.

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So those are some things that we should always be concerned about.

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What kind of thing would cause something like that to be happening, you think?

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It is, it is, it is, it is the technology and when you talk to the experts in the field,

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the ones that are not only the experts in the field but the ones that are producing this,

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they have not resolved that.

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However, one of the things that you always have to be mindful of is that even the manufacturers,

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all human beings have implicit biases.

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So sometimes those implicit biases can come through through the manufacturer's work.

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Sometimes the implicit biases can come through through how the technology is deployed.

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What's your, what's your simple way of how you would describe what an implicit bias is?

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Because I think some people don't understand what that is sometimes.

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This bias is a, is a bias that is, that is not overt, it is not necessarily animus.

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It is those things that we do subconsciously, that we may not be aware of, but it adversely

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affects our behavior.

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It adversely affects how we do things, how we make judgments and how we perceive things.

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So that's how it impacts police.

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It's like a prejudgment kind of thing.

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It's a prejudgment, it's a prejudge of what we do and what we see.

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That person's overweight, so that person likes to eat a lot and it's not true and it's not

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true.

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Absolutely.

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And the 800 pound gorilla in the United States is implicit bias based upon race.

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That's the 800 pound gorilla.

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That's what everyone focuses on.

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But as you just mentioned, weight, age, language, height, all of those things, we prejudge.

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And the one that we, we prejudge that we, we need to really get a handle on and as those

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are the social economic factors, sometimes they cut across all of those categories.

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When we see someone that is homeless, looks destitute, we, we in our, in the back of

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our minds develop a detachment.

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There are some telltale signs, some, some watchouts for implicit bias.

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One is if you start to see a group of people and thinking all of them do something a certain

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way or everyone does it this way.

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Those are, those are things that you may want to do a self check because every human being

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is different and when you start to include everyone and saying everyone does it a certain

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way, that's when you become susceptible to treating people differently and prejudging.

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It sounds dangerous to policing, is it?

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It is dangerous.

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And it is dangerous because you can prejudge, I remember as, as a, as a, as a rookie cop,

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prejudging a situation where because it was a female involved, I assume that she did not

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have a weapon, that she was not a threat.

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But I have run into encounters where a female was involved and they had a weapon and they

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were as just as much as a threat.

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But I was prejudging the situation and that placed me at danger.

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You have to evaluate the situation based upon what you have.

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That is called individualized suspicion and making sure that you're calculating place,

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size, manner, how the person departs himself, how they're looking at you and always more

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importantly, where their hands are.

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Yeah.

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And when we talk about implicit bias in humans, is there such a thing when it comes to technology,

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especially AI technology and how it's being facilitated?

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Yes, in a number of different ways.

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One, implicit bias can come through in how it's deployed.

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Let me give you an example.

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If I start off and I deploy, say, cameras in an area that are license plate readers and

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I deploy that base upon, I've got information that there's a higher incidence of people

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violating certain things.

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That may be true at the beginning, but if I don't come back and check that, that camera

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can start to produce a self-fulfilling prophecy because what will happen is that it will continue

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to see the same people and that will continue even though it may have changed, that that's

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not the highest area, the highest percentage of it, but because they're taking that information,

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we're looking at saying, oh, this is the highest percentage.

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The other way that it can become an implicit bias is how it is designed.

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What is it designed to pick up on?

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What are the features and what are the locations and what are the things that it is designed

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to do?

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That gets a bit complicated and I don't know if I can get into it in this particular moment,

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but again, highlighting one of the telltale signs is any time there is like a predictive

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analysis that takes place before it is deployed, that's when you should start taking a closer

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look at is there a bias inherent because that's when discretion is used, human discretion.

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This time is always opens up human error.

241
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Yeah, I can't resist this, but you and I joked earlier before we kind of began this interview

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about the red cup and I told you a story about me going to a badger game when I first moved

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here and I had water in my red cup and the police officer made me put it out because

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they assumed that it might be liquor in there.

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Is that an implicit bias?

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The fact that I have a red cup that there is something in there other than water?

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That implicit bias can come in so many ways and I'll say the reason why it's complicated.

248
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One is why did they select you to even ask you that question.

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Just because a cup is red, there's no reason to believe, there's not 100% reason to believe

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that.

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But when if someone is operating on this principle that any and all people with red cups have

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liquor in it, they have prejudged a situation.

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That's what I felt.

254
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So that leads to problematic policing.

255
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And so what we would ask that police officer to do is review what they do, ask themselves

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some questions, but for this person having the red cup, would I have contacted them?

257
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What for believing that every person with a red cup has liquor in it?

258
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Would I have done what I did and what I have contacted this person?

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Those are the questions that we can do it.

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They're good people.

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All people have implicit biases.

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They're good people.

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The thing is we are bound to provide service in a fair and impartial manner.

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So that's the difference between a police officer or someone in government and just

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an everyday person, because I have the right to take away your freedom as a police officer,

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because I can use force up to including, physical force up to including, unfortunately, the

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potential of taking your life.

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I have that constitutional, that burden of being, it's not a burden, it is what we take

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that oath for to do it in a way where I'm a guardian of democracy and not trying to

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get away with something or trying to be overbearing and tyrannical on those things.

271
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It's an awesome power, but it's only awesome when it's used correctly.

272
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Yeah.

273
00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:25,040
And you talked about license plate readers, tools that are used to kind of gather information

274
00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:32,840
during our pre-interview, you know, I learned about this technique called, is it the flocking?

275
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What?

276
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Explain what that is.

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A flock camera is a camera that is deployed in certain parts of a particular geographic

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area.

279
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And what it does is it picks up information and it goes back to a certain point.

280
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Many times it's a command center.

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What it does is it reads license plates, it reads information about it.

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And depending upon the technology, they're starting to be able to pick up and extract

283
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more information from that.

284
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But it can pick up by reading a plate, does this person have a violation that has this

285
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person been previously, I mean, does this person have warrants out for their arrest?

286
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All of that type of information is there.

287
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So the question with flock cameras really comes down to this.

288
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Are they there to be used after the fact when we say a crime was committed?

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Then they come back and they look at it and says, yeah, this person was driving in this

290
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area at this particular time, this is what a crime was committed.

291
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I think people probably have a better feel for that.

292
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It's just like the bombing incident in Boston with a marathon.

293
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They went back and they started checking the cameras and they could start to push together

294
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things.

295
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I think most citizens understand that use.

296
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Where it becomes a question is proactively how it is used.

297
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So if I'm using this information and then I act on it, even if you have not committed

298
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,280
a crime right then and there, I go knock on your door and say, hey, you came through

299
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this intersection at such and such a date and time.

300
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This is a potential.

301
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,920
And based upon the information we have, you have a warrant for your arrest.

302
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:39,240
So people ask those questions or you were here and you're being surveilled now.

303
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:41,800
People complain about the issues of privacy.

304
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,800
Yeah.

305
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,360
And what's done with that information once it's gathered, what happens to it at that?

306
00:21:46,360 --> 00:21:49,400
That's another issue.

307
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In most states, information has been historically treated in their laws that govern.

308
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How long you can maintain a record.

309
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:00,680
Where does the information go?

310
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Who has access to it?

311
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:10,080
So one of the other concerns that communities need to wrestle with is that if a third party

312
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has data and information and if the government has access to that, have they made that third

313
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:22,960
party become a de facto part of the government because they're accessing their information.

314
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:24,880
But where's that stored?

315
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,160
What information do they have on you?

316
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,160
Don't you have a right to know what your government has on you?

317
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,640
These are questions that communities really do need to wrestle with.

318
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:35,640
Yeah.

319
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:41,480
And we know that some law enforcement agencies, departments around the state have been moving

320
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away from that system.

321
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,120
Why do you think it's so controversial and why would they?

322
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:47,800
Move away from it, you think?

323
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:57,760
I think, first of all, I think it was developed in many instances to improve public safety.

324
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,280
I'm not going to conclude that that was not the reason.

325
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:07,520
But I think that right now we're behind the curve.

326
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:15,520
We are behind the curve because we have not, as a community, provided what they should

327
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:16,960
be used for.

328
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,720
What are the standards?

329
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,640
What are the standards of privacy that that community accepts?

330
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,040
How should the police department use it?

331
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:31,120
Some communities have gone and what they've done is that they've pulled together stakeholders

332
00:23:31,120 --> 00:23:35,320
and they've discussed from every branch.

333
00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:40,920
They've pulled together people that are community members, civil liberties.

334
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:45,760
They've pulled together people that are subject matter experts, the manufacturers.

335
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,080
And they have come up with some broad guidelines.

336
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:54,320
And then the community starts to lay out for law enforcement.

337
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Here's some policies.

338
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,240
Here are some procedures.

339
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,840
Here's some ordinances that we think would work.

340
00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,080
And they all have to be constantly improved.

341
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,640
But right now, we're behind the eight ball because we have not done that.

342
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:13,360
And so we're reaching for this technology before we know it's total impact and we're

343
00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:15,960
using it before we know the total impact.

344
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:23,080
One of the numbers I heard don't quote me, but I went to a seminar last summer and talked

345
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,240
about AI and how it was being used.

346
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:32,600
And I think at that time they were saying that it's only correct 80% of the time.

347
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,680
And so is it okay for something that's wrong 20% of the time?

348
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,560
Is it okay to use that as a tool?

349
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:48,600
So how do you weigh the value it brings in terms of what it brings to law enforcement

350
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:57,440
versus the problem that creates from it being used improperly by the humans that control

351
00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,840
it?

352
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,840
It's a very complex question but a good one.

353
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,840
So I gave you an example of a fly camera.

354
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,760
If someone is wanted for murder, you want that person off the street.

355
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,080
You want that fly camera to be able to pick that up.

356
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,480
But let me give you an example that happens every day.

357
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:24,880
One, if you go on a cruise ship, your picture is taken, okay, and that could be used in

358
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:25,880
other ways.

359
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,880
Do you think most people assume and understand that that's happening wherever they go now?

360
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:30,880
No, they don't.

361
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,880
They don't.

362
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:38,200
I don't think they understand that the government can at times they can decide the subpoena

363
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:43,360
that private entity could decide to give it to them.

364
00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:44,640
They don't know that.

365
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,760
But that to me can be more problematic.

366
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,800
However, in answering to your question, sometimes it's situational.

367
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,960
They do the same thing, many instances, if you get on a flight.

368
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,720
But because the risk of a person getting on that flight and that plane coming down, if

369
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:09,320
that person takes that plane down, you're willing to take more of a risk.

370
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:16,280
You're willing to give up more of your privacy if the risk is higher or if it's effective

371
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,000
and it's important to save lives.

372
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:24,080
If it's not doing those things, you're going, well, why am I giving up my privacy just

373
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,080
for this?

374
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,640
So, those are some of the things that we have to balance.

375
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:34,720
Are we just doing it because it's convenient for a particular industry or convenient for

376
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,320
police?

377
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:38,320
So that's one.

378
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:45,080
One of the things I do want to mention that I think really quickly is there is an economics

379
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:50,200
to this that is important for people to understand.

380
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:58,720
There are agencies now that are sending calls, sending drones to calls to assess the situation.

381
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:06,520
And then once they assess it, they may decide to deploy police or police officer or not.

382
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:11,080
It can be and all of these have very positive impacts.

383
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,080
That's why it needs that scrutiny.

384
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:23,760
However, you flip that over and do you start to say, well, it's cheaper to have the drone

385
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:32,440
do it than to have police officers who have to pay insurance, salary, benefits and all

386
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:33,720
those other things.

387
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:39,080
Now, those are major questions because we have grown accustomed to having human beings

388
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:46,720
and it should always be making decisions about arrest who gets the citation.

389
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,920
What are the mitigating circumstances?

390
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:53,560
I don't want to know which one is going to give me the best intelligence.

391
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:58,600
You may want to know who's going to give you the best intelligence and I believe it's

392
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,760
a police officer.

393
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:07,560
The technology will give you the information, but the police officer will add those things

394
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,160
that you can't ever add with that.

395
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:19,880
Yeah, but can a drone talk a person down from a hostage situation or whatever that circumstance

396
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:20,880
is?

397
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,040
There just has to be a human element.

398
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:26,040
There has to be a human element to be able to do those things.

399
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:33,320
There has to be a human element to understand the context, to understand that human being,

400
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:34,600
where they're coming from.

401
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,760
To understand a particular area, you can have someone, you can have people violating

402
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,520
park laws every night and that drone will pick up on it and they'll say, this is a problem

403
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,880
you're violating that.

404
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:52,000
What they may not know is that a store may have closed and this may be the only drug

405
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:56,960
store open at night and people are violating that just to get to that drug store.

406
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:05,840
You do need human beings to assess these things because just because something is wrong,

407
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:12,160
the criminal justice system may not always be the correct way to deal with it and it

408
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,120
takes judgment.

409
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,240
That's why justice is not blind.

410
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:19,680
Justice is blind folded.

411
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:26,000
That means that human beings have to do things to be able to make sure that justice is needed

412
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,200
out in an equal and fair way.

413
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:32,240
That's why Lady Justice has that.

414
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:33,400
That's why the balance is there.

415
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,080
You have to balance the scale with empathy.

416
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:40,280
You have to balance the scale with a whole host of issues that someone has surrounded

417
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:41,280
with.

418
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,000
These are things technology can't do.

419
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:51,640
I don't think that we want a world right now where technology is making those decisions,

420
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:56,440
just like no one wants a world that we're constantly being surveilled.

421
00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:06,080
And speaking of the human influence on things, whose job is it to determine how these tools

422
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:13,600
are implemented, is it the law enforcement agency, is it the community, is it state officials,

423
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,760
whose job is it to say, you know, this is a good idea.

424
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:22,200
We should have a robot that decides that, hey, camera one, camera two, those guys might

425
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,160
do something suspicious in a month and we need to be ready for it.

426
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:32,920
Like whose job is it to choose where the, you know, that kind of, you know, superficial

427
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,240
technology has been used, I guess.

428
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,720
I think it is the stakeholders of the community.

429
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:41,200
Is that the people?

430
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,080
That is the people.

431
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:49,280
That is, that is the ones that are the manufacturers, there's the civil rights leaders, there's

432
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,240
government, government.

433
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,480
But the distinction here is that government has to lead on this one because we're talking

434
00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:58,320
about government issues.

435
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:04,360
Well, some people are concerned about the government because they take the data and use

436
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:09,880
it in ways that some of them don't even know about.

437
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:18,800
When government undermines trust, when they're not using it in a way of honesty, character,

438
00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:23,000
competence, when they don't have the competent in that using the right way, they've undermined

439
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:24,000
trust.

440
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:29,160
So, I can't speak, I'm not speaking to a government that is not working.

441
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:35,160
I am being aspirational, talk about if a government is working, they should take the lead.

442
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,160
They should bring people together.

443
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:44,160
They should bring all of the key stakeholders together and decide these key points of privacy,

444
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:51,640
of things like, you know, public safety, of trust, of all of this because all of those

445
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:57,400
things are right there, you know, the cost-benefit analysis of having a drone do it or a person

446
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,400
do it.

447
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,240
All of those things are key to providing public safety in this country.

448
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,720
Yeah, I want to get this question here before we wrap up.

449
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:13,760
I mentioned Big Brother earlier, you know, I think people understand that, you know,

450
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:20,960
we're always, there's a camera on us, on corners and grocery stores, elevators, you

451
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,840
name it, is that a good thing?

452
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:31,800
I don't think so, because for two reasons, one, and I know everyone has cameras, it's

453
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:37,120
not just government, but I don't think it's a good thing because it creates an environment

454
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,120
where we assume that people are wrong.

455
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,560
It creates a surveillance mentality that people have to prove themselves right.

456
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:54,120
One of the major principles of this country is that you are right until you are innocent

457
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,960
until proven guilty.

458
00:32:55,960 --> 00:33:00,400
Under these circumstances, if you're constantly under surveillance and something comes up,

459
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:03,560
you have to prove yourself innocent.

460
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:10,440
If you show up as a false positive on a camera and you were there and you were false positive,

461
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:14,000
you're going to have to prove that you didn't do it.

462
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:25,000
And that turns the whole dynamic of some things that for 250 years was important to this country.

463
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:31,360
And that's shifting, that constant surveillance.

464
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:37,840
And I also want to ask you, what do you see as the biggest threat to policing?

465
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:43,920
And what do you see as the biggest threat to the community and how it's policed?

466
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:54,560
Biggest threat to policing is if somehow we cannot get the entire apparatus of government

467
00:33:54,560 --> 00:34:00,840
to start working on these issues because the police will be left out there hanging

468
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:06,200
because the community will ask, I need for you to keep my community safe.

469
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,240
But then when they keep the community safe and they make a mistake,

470
00:34:10,240 --> 00:34:14,280
then they're going to say, well, you're using technology too much.

471
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:20,840
So the police, as the ones that are delivering this service, that will be on their,

472
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:26,360
that will, they will carry the burden of having to deal with all of these issues.

473
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:33,120
So it's important that if you have a law enforcement agency in your jurisdiction that you help them

474
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:38,920
and you pull together these resources to do that, what was the second question again?

475
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,440
What's the biggest threat to the community that's being policed?

476
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:50,680
The biggest, biggest threat to the community that's being policed is that we lose our faith

477
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:59,920
in humanity, that we start to believe that we live in a society, that everyone is a criminal.

478
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:05,400
People commit crimes at a very low rate when it's all sitting down.

479
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:11,600
We should not design systems solely for the purpose of catching people.

480
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:17,600
We should design systems for keeping the community safe, albeit, which is very important.

481
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:23,280
But we should also design systems that do the right thing and help people

482
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,280
and help community stay safe while maintaining the public trust.

483
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,600
Yeah, and I'm going to get you to look into your crystal ball on this one.

484
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:37,640
What is the future, I consider we're here now, but what does the future of law enforcement look like

485
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,440
in terms of technology and how it's being used?

486
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,400
What do you see, what's going to be the next big to do?

487
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:48,480
That's a tough one because just as I sit here, if I go back three years,

488
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:54,240
everything that was related to technology has just expanded like you would not believe.

489
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:56,240
It is growing so rapidly.

490
00:35:56,240 --> 00:36:04,080
We've got data centers that are powering algorithms that we could never imagine before.

491
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:14,400
So it is hard to predict what's going to happen, but we must try, if we can, to keep this human

492
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,120
centered, justice must be human centered.

493
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,360
From one human to another, no worry, thanks for stopping by.

494
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:22,960
Thank you very much, I appreciate it.

495
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,160
Appreciate you.