I'm recording now for an amendment.
So if you just want to say your name
and then your position at Clean
Wisconsin.
Amy Barrio, Communications
Director with Clean Wisconsin.
Cool, so we've seen Wisconsin
be a hub for a lot of data centers
and companies like Microsoft to come
here and build these data centers.
So Microsoft is building in Mount
Pleasant, making plans for Kenosha,
there's Foxconn in the past, and
even this week I read that Meta is
actually making plans to invest
nearly a billion dollars in central
Wisconsin.
So why are these companies looking
at Wisconsin?
What makes it so special?
Well, I think when we think about
Wisconsin, we have to think about
water, right?
We are on two Great Lakes.
The Great Lakes is the largest
freshwater system in the world.
And these companies may
be being a little bit quieter
about climate change and
meeting their climate change goals
and things like that than they used
to be. But when they're making
business decisions, they are very
much thinking about climate change.
And so when you look at Wisconsin,
compared to some other states.
We are projected to be
relatively water rich in
the coming decades and data
centers, particularly AI data
centers need a lot of water.
So we're seeing these companies
coming into Wisconsin and other
states in the Midwest and
the draw is our water resources.
Those are essential for AI data
center to operate.
Sure. So, this might
not be something you know off the
top of your head, but how much
energy do you have? I'm sorry.
I'm sorry, before you start,
could you just brush the top of your
head on that side?
I can see a couple here standing up
and I don't want you to be mad
at me later.
I'm not sure which side we're
talking about.
Your right hand.
And one more.
Perfect. I think it's good now.
Thank you. A little makeup.
Oh wow.
Usually nobody would ever tell me.
They're just like, whatever, I'm
shooting a TV interview.
So how much energy
would a data center or location
like Mount Pleasant consume on
an annual basis?
How much energy.
Yeah. I don't
have that written down.
No problem, no problem.
No, no, no problem.
But like you mentioned, a lot of
these data centers are going to
require water to cool them down.
So what specific water resources are
they going to be pulling from?
So, when data centers, you know,
go through all that computation,
they get hot, and so
water is used for cooling,
basically evaporation to
cool the data center, and that's
typically potable water, so it
has to be clean water at
the same level that you would drink.
So oftentimes these data centers
will pull from the drinking water
system, or they will drill their own
well to access the drinking-water
aquifers that are below our in
Wisconsin.
So these are critical resources.
When I talk about the aquifer,
you may not realize we have a big
sandstone aquifer below our
feet across much of Wisconsin,
where a lot of communities draw
their drinking water from.
Um, so that aquifer
takes a while to recharge.
So in times of drought or, or,
you know, water stress, um,
the aquifer levels drop.
And we need to pay attention
to how much withdrawals are
happening. We have a lot of
competing interests for that water,
communities, farming,
businesses, manufacturing, and now
AI data centers coming in to access
some of that water.
Usually it's water coming from
the drinking water system that
everybody relies on.
And why does that water have
to be potable or fresh water?
Why not salt water or other kinds
of water?
I'm not exactly
sure. I think it just has something
to do with the components
and keeping
everything clean and functioning.
Sure, absolutely.
So what are some of the
environmental impacts of these data
centers continuing to pop up
around Wisconsin and pulling this
water?
When we're trying to see what those
environmental impacts are going to
be, I know that the Microsoft
data center, for example, has said
that they're going to use water
recycling reclamation so they
can try to control their water
footprint.
We don't have as much information
about what these other data centers
are going to be using.
And then we share these resources
with other states, so we know a lot
of data centers are coming to
Michigan, for instance, AI data
centers, so that means big energy,
big water use.
And we have to share our
Great Lakes water resources and
what we're not seeing is a lot of
communication between states about
what projects are being greenlit,
what the water withdrawals are going
to be, and what the potential
stresses are going be.
So I think we're in a position where
we don't know what the environmental
impact is going to be until
it starts to happen and that's not a
situation we want to be in.
Thinking of that, the Great Lakes
Compact started in 2008
between eight states being able to
manage water diversions.
So can this kind of compactor or
protection prevent companies from
coming in and using more water?
Can this be able to protect the
water?
I think it could, I don't
know that it's been used in that way
up to this point.
So I think its just a matter of
states coming together
and figuring out okay what's
happening.
And what you're seeing in Wisconsin
and other places is that even local
communities, neighbors don't that
a data center is coming until it's
already been green lit.
And so when we hear about
these data centers, it's not, hey.
What do we think about this?
It's hey, this is happening and so
that's what we're seeing going on
in Wisconsin in Michigan in
a lot of other states
It's one of those things where, you
know, we have a responsibility to
protect the largest freshwater
system in the world, and
we don't know what the future holds
with data centers.
I think everyone feels like
one second you woke up and AI was
here, and a
lot of people don't really realize
the impact that
this kind of heavy computing
is having on our
environment and could potentially
have on our.
Really critical water systems.
I think people,
you know, there's a lot of
excitement around AI, right?
A lot of excitement around data
centers coming, you know, what it
could mean, you know, jobs and
revenue coming in.
But we have to understand that we
have a lot of.
Entities that depend on
water resources, our agricultural
industry here in Wisconsin, our
tourism, our fishing,
many manufacturing and businesses
rely on water and of
course all of us, all of our
communities. So this is something we
have to share.
And so even though there's this
excitement to just go ahead and
green light project after project,
we can't put those other things at
risk.
Absolutely.
Talking to someone, she had
mentioned that in a South American
country, I believe it was Uruguay,
that a situation had come in where a
company had built all these data
centers and when you used up all
this water during a drought year,
a lot of the people didn't have
access to that fresh water.
It seems, you know, something down
the road from something that could
happen in Wisconsin, but is that
something people are thinking about?
I think it is something people are
thinking about. So that was a Google
data center.
And one thing, even when I
talk about Microsoft and their
effort to recycle water,
they have said that the
days when they'll use the most water
are the hottest.
Driest times of the year.
Well, that's when everybody uses the
most water. That's when our farmers
need water, that when our
communities need water.
So when data centers need
the most water, it's the same time
when everybody needs the most of
water. And that's when you start
seeing the stress, and that's
where you start to see people get
angry. If you're in a drought,
if your water resources are stressed
out, and you
start having withdrawals for
data centers.
It starts to strike at, you know,
the real essence of what people
understand that they need.
And we cannot say that
Wisconsin isn't going to experience
those things. In 2012, we had a
devastating drought in Wisconsin.
Our aquifer levels were very low.
Our water systems were stressed out.
If we have another one of those
times, We need to
understand the public needs to
understand what AI data
centers are going to mean for that
will they be able to
you know, slow things down,
take some things offline to give
our water systems a break.
It doesn't appear so.
That doesn't seem to be the business
model for AI and for data
centers.
So what we really need is an
understanding of what could happen
if we were in a stressful situation
like that.
And we know globally we're at a
time when our water system are
stressed and
Wisconsin is not going to be
exempted from that forever.
Um speaking of that as well
um Microsoft has has
plans it says to to be water
positive by 2030 producing
giving back more water than it is
taking um in 2022 their
usage globally was you know over
1.5 nearly 1.7 billion gallons
of water that was a 34%
jump from the year prior So,
how realistic are these water
positive promises,
are these trustworthy?
I don't know exactly how that plan
would work to be water positive.
It's good that companies are
thinking about this and
trying to talk about it and be more
public because it's not
really a matter of trust.
It's a matter transparency.
So we need to be able to see
what are the plans?
How much is this data center gonna
be using next year or in
five years?
What are the plan to make this
better?
What we're seeing though isn't that
transparency always.
We're seeing data
centers.
Approved construction underway,
and then we're hearing maybe
how much water is going to be used.
And I think the public
understands how critical
water resources are.
They understand that we all
deserve and need safe,
clean water every day,
all the time.
And there
needs to be some oversight of that,
some real understanding of what AI
means for those systems.
I think it's good that Microsoft is
looking to try
to solve this issue because it is an
issue.
What we're seeing though are
data centers popping
up and approved and getting
built.
Before we understand how these
issues could possibly be
solved. So we're seeing the
The issue happen and then
try and figure out how do we solve
the problems that it's bringing?
And that's backwards and we have a
tendency to do a lot of things that
way in our society, you know We
put a bunch of chemicals out there
and then we realize oh those were
bad. How do we fix that?
We put things out and
then We have to go back and try to
unwind everything We know we don't
have time to do that with our
critical water resources.
We cannot afford
to stress things out even more than
they're already being stressed under
climate change and all kinds of
other issues.
Yeah.
So do lawmakers have a
responsibility to make regulations
and keep track of
the water and how it's being used
for these data centers?
I think the public expects
our government and our lawmakers
to take care of these water
resources. We expect
clean, safe water because
we know that everybody
relies on it. There's not one person
in this country, not one
business, not anything that
doesn't need to have water.
And so yes, there's an expectation,
I think, that
every level of government...
Take some responsibility for
protecting those water resources.
And it doesn't mean that
we can't have data
centers, that we cannot have AI.
It just means that we kind of need
to take a minute
and find some
real understanding of what
an AI data center is going to mean
for water,
for energy use, for our
climate goals. What are these,
this kind of new era,
what's it going to be 10 years from
now, 15 years from, are we going to
look back in 25 years Oh my gosh
look what happened and not being
able to do anything about it.
When we had talked before on the
phone, you mentioned a little bit
that there could be impacts on
taking water from other resources
like farming, how are
taking water resources going to,
how could it directly impact
Wisconsinites, some of
the water usage
that they care about.
I think, you know, water
systems are all interrelated.
So when we think about,
for example, I believe in 2024,
agriculture had the highest amount
of water withdrawals from our
aquifers since they started
recording that.
So we know that our
water resources are
something we have to pay attention
to.
When you get into a drought
situation,
hot, dry period.
It's harder and harder, for example,
to reach water.
If it's aquifer levels are low,
it's more energy intensive.
It's just puts a lot
of stress on everybody,
everything, if you have a private
well, trying to get that water.
So I think.
Um.
When we talk about data centers...
I can't remember what your question
was.
No, no, no problem.
Ask it again.
Yeah, how could it impact everyday
Wisconsinites if, you know,
they're not having access to clean,
fresh water, potable water?
I think everybody
knows how
special having
clean water is.
We cannot take it for granted.
When you see communities,
even here in Wisconsin, that don't
have clean, safe water,
for whatever reason, maybe
they have contamination in their
private well,
maybe they're having issues with
their private kind of running low
because of abuse in other
areas.
That's when you start to see how
hard it is to live without that
resource when you're having to get
bottled water in every day to drink,
when you are having to worry about
where your water is coming from,
when your a water utility that's
having to use more and more energy
to pull the water up out of the
aquifer.
You know, people get uneasy when
they start realizing that
this resource that means so
much could be harder
and harder to get, and we don't want
to get in that situation.
So with our water resources,
you know, in Wisconsin there are
going to be times when we have
plenty, and there are gonna be times
where we have less, depending
on where we are in this kind of
uncertain climate future.
But communities need to kind of
have a chance to at least understand
what an AI data center is going to
mean in that mix of
of different kinds of businesses and
people and farmers and
entities that want
to also have access to water.
Absolutely.
That covers a lot of the questions
that I have.
Is there anything else that you
wanted to talk about that you don't
think we covered?
Well, I just want to stress that
it's not that AI
or data centers are
this terrible thing
that's coming.
It's more that we need just time to
understand what it all means and how
to make sure we are prepared and
that we have water resources that
can handle this kind of
big shift that we're seeing right
now. And the hope is that yes.
Data centers can be more
energy-efficient, more water-e
efficient sometime in the future,
but that's not what we're seeing
right now, necessarily.
So it's understanding,
supporting that push from tech
companies to be more water-
efficient and more energy efficient,
and really just giving
communities and people who live in
the state some
transparency and a chance to
understand when
we think about our water resources.
What the impact is going to be.
Absolutely. Thank you.