One day they're going to class,
the next they're being told to leave
the country immediately.
More than 50 international
university students in Wisconsin
have had their student visas revoked
this week, half of them at UW
Madison but also at system
campuses across the state at
Concordia University and Marquette,
according to university officials.
UW Madison says it played no
role in the visa terminations and
know of no ICE activity on
campus. Further, university
officials say they don't believe
that revoked visas relate to
political activity.
So what is going on?
We turn to Madison Immigration
Attorney Amanda Generman with
the Pinesbach Firm.
And thanks very much for being here.
You're very welcome, thank you for
asking me to be.
So I understand you've
been contacted by some of
these people but as to that
question, what is going on,
do you know?
That's a great question.
These are one of these things that
we have been experiencing in
the last 90 days that every
day feels like a new day,
right? There are constant changes
happening and this being
the latest of that experience
for foreign nationals in
our communities.
Is that how it works,
that they get notice of termination
by the U.S.
government and then they have to
leave the country immediately?
So student visas are its own
unique world, and
there are systems in place that
notify a student if they
seem to not hold that
status anymore.
And usually it's through the
university, DSO,
Designated Student Officer, who
notifies the student or has a
conversation and says, there's an
issue here.
This is not how this unfolded
for these 40 to 50 students.
It was an email in their box.
with this notification, no real
explanation.
So, yes and no to
that answer.
What happens if the students
do not, in fact, leave
immediately?
Do they run the risk of being picked
up by ICE?
I think that this is definitely an
act of enforcement, and
should people not remove
themselves or seek other
relief to remain in the United
States or try to establish
that status back
in place, that ICE could
take that action,
come to take them and start the
removal proceedings.
How urgently are advocates like
yourself kind of responding to this?
I understand that there's kind of
a rapid response to this.
Is that to try to set up some kind
of class action lawsuit or what
are lawyers doing?
At this point, there's definitely, I
mean, it's a national issue that
we are experiencing.
So immigration being a national bar,
we are watching individuals from New
Hampshire, things that are getting a
lot of play in the media
as to the litigation that
is happening under these
circumstances.
So here locally within the
Madison and state of Wisconsin,
a group of attorneys
as of this week were
talking about how do we respond?
What are the things we can do?
Who do we know at the university?
How do we get resources out?
So yes, it's a small but mighty
group, but we are here
to assist students.
has any information been forthcoming
from the university or from federal
immigration officials?
The answer is no.
Nobody is really providing
the information, and that's what the
problem is.
There's supposed to be a system
here. There's suppose to be a
due process opportunity for students
to explore what are the
issues. But it's being very,
very, it's very vague.
How broad are the reasons that
result in termination of a student
visa and removal from the U.S.?
Two different answers
to that question.
Terminating a status for a student
is under a system that we
call SEVIS.
And there's a check-down box.
And there are three to four if
you fail to maintain your full
caseload.
If you do have contact with law
enforcement, it could be looked
at. So it's primarily due
to participating in school,
which is what you are here to do on
an F visa.
And so,
when...
these things happen, what these
students seem to be noticing in
their boxes of why they're being
terminated is that it's
for unknown, for other
failing to maintain status.
but they don't know. And the
university says that it does
not appear that these terminations
have anything to do with political
activity.
from what we're seeing right now.
And again, there are very, I have
not had access to a majority
of these individuals.
That does not seem to be the box
that is ticked.
So are these students who
are terminated, their status
terminated and their visas revoked
presumably as a result of that,
are they able to have
hearings?
That is what we're
seeing this litigation action,
trying to get these students back to
having those conversations, to say,
why was this terminated?
What is the
grounds for that and
was it valid?
From your interactions with
these students and other lawyers
that you're talking with, are they
looking over their shoulder,
are in hiding, what are
they doing?
I think our communities are in
crisis right now.
I think that people are very afraid.
When we're watching people in Boston
being taken off the street and
half-masked officers,
I don't know how you don't look over
your shoulder and how you worry
about what's coming next
or am I supposed to be here, am
I not.
So I do believe that the community
is very much afraid
for all of those reasons, rightfully
so.
All right, Amanda Gannerman, we
leave it there. Thanks very much.
It really is.
It's cowboy.
Yeah.
And to me, it's really shocking that
you get
this email that says other reasons.
Well, what other reasons?
And who's saying that?
And who is deciding?
Like I said, generally the process
is through the DSOs.
Like they have to check these
regulatory statuses
maybe every semester, right?
Are the students keeping up?
Are they working? Are they not
supposed to be working?
All the things that are permitted.
And so those are the things that
generally get ticked.
And then there's opportunities to
reinstate or if you're having a hard
time, you're stressed out,
you need a break from school, you
work with your DSO and that's
the relationship. But what's
happening is ICE, who maintains...
that SEVIS program is
skipping it all, and going,
uh-uh, you know, we're not going to
use the university, we are not going
tell the university we're just going
to go through and enter our own.
Do you have any idea, someone asked
me this and I said I have no idea,
but the nationality
people?
Yeah, from what I know from
the UW system, at least from
Madison, it seems to be Asian.
Seems to be mostly Chinese
and Korean nationals.
who I anticipate.
Right.
On the other hand, UW-Madison
in particular has
really recruited from
China for their
international
student base.
So I think it's I had a conversation
with a colleague in LA last night
is that like some of these
actions and who they're
selecting seems to be
kind of testing the waters.
Like I think we all expect it's
going to be the encampment kids.
Yeah. And and the
individuals who are using
their voices.
Yeah, to be heard and
and less about the students who
seem to be minding their own
business. Yeah So it's like,
if you allow that,
where to, you know, again, I think
there's a lot of
just pure lawlessness going on
and going, what can we get away
with?
Would you be willing
to kind of keep us up to date
as to what you learn and what you
know?
I would happily do that.
And like I said, there's four groups
here in Madison that
are saying we're interested in
doing some of the litigation work.
So myself and other people you've
spoken with, Luca Weiss-Odison
at DeWitt is really,
when I think about F1s, that's what
I said to Steve.
I'm like, she's your girl.
Like, if you want to talk F1, that's
who you should be talking to.
Freya Katkowski with East
Bridge Law Group.
They have a three team of
immigration lawyers.
Pinsbach, we have litigation
attorneys, right?
So I'm corralling with
people who do more litigation work.
Where my practice area, I do a lot
of humanitarian, I'm much like Erin
in that way.
I do lot of U visas, violence
against women act, self petitions,
naturalizing.
I just went through with a client
today, the whole application
process is being taken
at just such a deeper dive right
now. I'm walking through these
clients, these conversations about
terrorist organizations.
material support,
people who are from Cambodia,
like it is, everything is under
the level of scrutiny that
I have never felt, and I've been
doing this for 23 years.
Question about someone who is
here on a green card.
Would, in your opinion, they be safe
to leave the country and come back
in?
I have a flyer on what it
means to travel as an LPR, as
a green card holder.
I mean, we see U.S.
citizens are now, their devices are
being taken.
I don't not encourage my clients
to travel right now.
I'm like, unless this is an absolute
emergency, and then these are the
things you're gonna do with your
devices, here's the ACLU's
number, here are the resources.
I think everybody is subject to
being investigated.
Have you heard of people
leaving the country, green
card holders leaving the country and
not being allowed back in?
Definitely deferred inspection,
secondary inspection are happening
with residents who are
returning.
What we are hearing as
well is that CBP
is trying to push this form,
it's called a 407, to basically
abandon your residency.
So saying why don't you just sign
this? Oh my gosh.
We'll take your green card, you can
go home.
Wow.
So the level of
kind of, we talk about what airports
do you come to or airports don't
come to.
I don't feel like any airport is a
great place right now, but I know
where I'm not sending my clients.
Houston, Atlanta,
Logan.
Boston is awful.
So we try to go smaller.
I worked with a large group
of Palestinian students
who were able to get out of RAFA and
get student visas, because no
universities are there, obviously,
anymore.
And we assisted 19
students to come on
scholarship, because other
universities here are stepping up,
going, we will get your education
completed.
And we flew those students in
through a small international
Airport in Ohio.
and the CBP officer called one of
our main contacts, and he's like,
what's going on here?
Like 19 students are sitting in my
waiting room, you know,
and Ban walked the officer
right through it, and only one had
like one kind of holdup, but
all of those students are studying,
and now I wonder.
Right. Now what?
Right, exactly, wow.
So there's a lot of really,
you now, like again,
national action and activities.
people finding the spaces that
we can really advocate for people
on different levels.
It's pretty scary.
You're so welcome.
Again, it's one of those things I
just want to sometimes just go home
and lay down and take a
break.
So thank you for highlighting it.
Thank you for supporting these
students and having their stories
told.
And maybe some of them will come and
want to talk.
If you learn of one, please
let us know because we
would love to do that but we
don't want to kind of
push people either.
The risk is great, understandably.
Families are concerned.
You're sending your loved ones here,
thinking this is a safe space, and
now we're helping people get to
Canada.
Are you, are you actually doing?
I haven't, but I know some
colleagues that are working on
those issues.
We'd like to follow one of those
people.
I do know as well.
I mean, the woman who is
representing the student from Tufts
is a good colleague of
mine from Boston.
What's the status with that now?
I think she's still detained.
And I think that both her
and Mahmoud
Khalil are still in Louisiana, even
though the judges are saying their
cases can be heard back in
their jurisdictions of
Boston and the Northeast.
they haven't been physically
released to those spaces.
I think I'm still connected, so.
You are.