Really nice occasion.
Good good good good
federal investigations over DEI
programs and anti-Semitism,
international students having their
visas revoked, funding cuts,
and threats of more.
The universities of Wisconsin is
coming under the scrutiny of the
Trump administration, with flagship
UW-Madison at the epicenter.
With that in mind, we wanted to
check in with Chancellor Jennifer
Mnuchin.
We offer this disclaimer, PBS
Wisconsin is part of
UW- Madison. And Chancellor, thanks
very much for being here.
Thanks for having me.
So, the university is facing many
headwinds right now.
What stands out as your biggest
concern at UW-Madison?
Well, you're right. It's a challenging
time in higher education across the
entire sector right now, including
for us.
I think the biggest challenge
is around questions around
federal funding, especially for
research and also more generally.
Federal funding is our single
largest component of our
budget and we're really
proud to be an extraordinary
research flagship.
We're doing research on so many
different kinds of topics from
from cancer research to incredible
studies about Alzheimer's
to public policy engagements and
so much else and right now
there are a lot of questions about
what that funding is going to look
like in the time ahead.
So that's probably my single biggest
concern.
Understood.
What is the current status of cuts
to research over head costs and
funding losses?
Well, there have been a number
of executive orders,
but several of them have been
paused through legal processes right
now. So there have efforts
to bring down the
facilities and administration
rates for NIH,
as well as the Department of Energy.
And in both of those cases, those
are now on hold.
Courts have imposed a hold
in both of those instances.
All of the funding
that...
That we get from the government is
used to support research.
And so if these rates drop,
it's not just about
overhead.
It's about renovating laboratories.
It's not buying equipment.
It's supporting the core
science that we do.
Now UW-Madison is under
investigation by the Trump
administration over DEI and
anti-Semitism.
What kind of sanctions for funding
and program cuts has that
resulted in?
So at this point you're
right that we are one of a great
many, many dozens of institutions
all across the country that do have
Title VI complaints connected
to anti-Semitism.
One investigation was opened
back in January 2024.
It actually is about a protest
incident back in October 23,
October 2023.
So nothing recent.
And we certainly condemn
anti-Semitism in all of its
forms, and we are cooperating
fully with that investigation.
But we have not heard anything
recently about it, and it's
about an incident that happened
quite a long time
ago.
Now, we saw that Harvard
University's president rejected the
administration's demands and
saw an immediate federal funding
cut of more than $2 billion.
Would you or could you reject
whatever the demands are?
You know, that's a very speculative
and hypothetical question at this
point. We're all watching Harvard
and a number of other institutions
very carefully to see how
they are behaving and
proceeding.
We are, we're just not in that
situation right now.
I mean, we are, again, there are
many dozens, probably more
than 100 schools that do have Title
VI complaints and we are among
those schools, but we haven't faced
anything like what you're describing
there.
We know that international students
have had their visas terminated
throughout the UW system,
but more than two dozen of them at
UW-Madison.
What is your response to those
actions?
It's been very concerning, frankly.
We've had, you're exactly right,
we've had more than two dozen
students, both current students
and some recent graduates who are
lawfully working in the country this
year, face removal
from the SEVIS
system.
And in many of these cases, we
really, we and they don't know why,
or it's because of something
literally as minor as a traffic
ticket.
And some of these students were,
are literally weeks away from
graduation.
In our community, international
students are an incredibly
important part of everything
we do here.
You know, our very first
international student was actually
part of our first class at
UW-Madison back in 1849.
And we're proud that
we've had global students
and staff and faculty throughout our
history.
And many of them go on to do
incredible things.
Some of them stay right here in
Wisconsin. And it's been interesting
for me to learn that a number
of entrepreneurs here in the state
got their start when they came as
international students or
staff here to UW-Madison.
And then they've gone on to build
companies right here in Wisconsin.
And so we absolutely want to
support our students.
I do also recognize that
those who
come to our country have the
responsibility to follow the law and
that the administration
has the right to
structure visa processes.
But what's been very, very
concerning is that it
seems like some of these students
are being caught up in a dragnet
when they really haven't done any.
Have you
expressed that to the Trump
administration?
Not directly.
I did actually write about this in
the local newspaper this morning,
so it's
something I feel strongly about.
We're also trying to provide support
and information to all of our
students that are affected.
Well, what is the university doing
on behalf of these students?
Well, we're trying to give them the
information so that they can make
the best decisions for themselves.
One of our students did receive
a temporary restraining order on
their SEVIS record.
It would not be lawful here in the
state of Wisconsin for us to provide
direct legal services.
What is your guidance to these
students?
You know, everybody's situation
differs.
They're at different stages of their
life and from different countries.
And so I don't think there's a one
size fits all answer.
We do have several people who are
working with reaching
out to each individual student and
trying to give them the support they
need.
Meanwhile, what are you girding for
at the state level around
funding for the UW in
the midst of a legislative
DEI audit, which found
millions of dollars in DEI spending
across the system was not
tracked?
Yeah, thanks for that question.
We're obviously also in the middle
of a state budget process,
and we really appreciate that the
governor has prioritized
the universities of Wisconsin,
including UW Madison,
in his ask.
And we are very
hopeful that the
state legislature will
decide that.
That we do need to make an
investment in our system of higher
education.
We're an economic driver.
We are preparing students for the
jobs of tomorrow.
And we think that we
offer a lot of benefit
to our wonderful state.
I also do understand that there's
people who have questions and
concerns about some of the things we
do and some of choices that we make.
And we're happy to have those
conversations.
And I think we need to be
open to asking
What do we need to do better?
What do need to differently?
And we should be open to change, but
we should also recognize
that we are providing a
transformative education to
52,000 plus
students here in our great state
of Wisconsin, that our graduation
rates are at their all
time high, that our application
numbers are also at their time
high. And that two thirds of our
students are graduating, two thirds
our undergraduates are graduating
with absolutely no debt.
And the average time
to graduation is under four years.
So there's all of these amazing
things happening in our
student community and all of the
successes.
And so we need to
keep reminding people
of all of really great things,
even as we also take seriously
whatever concerns or questions
that community members or others
have.
On the specificity of that audit,
auditors said that the UW does not
require a universal definition
of DEI,
making delineating spending on
it difficult.
How do you define it?
You know, I think that's actually
fair. I think over
the last decade,
as there was an effort to try to
make sure that we,
and this was something that was
happening at schools all over the
country, not just us.
And in fact, it was something that
here in Wisconsin, the executive
branch was asking for, that as
we focused on DEI, we didn't
always define our terms.
We didn't have
as much specificity
about metrics as we should
have. And I think that
those are our fair concerns.
At the same time, I think we
absolutely want to be a
place where all of our
students, no matter what their
identities, no matter, what their
backgrounds, no matter their beliefs
can succeed and can
thrive and can reach their full
potential.
And we want to being a place
that is helping all of us.
What is
your reaction to everything that's
happening to higher education right
now and at UW-Madison?
I think this is, you know, people
throw around words like
unprecedented, but this is
a challenging time
for higher education, and it's
a time to both
ask what have we been doing
well and what do we need to do
better, but it's also a time to
recognize that higher education
is part of what makes this country
great. But the...
To come back to research where we
started, the compact between the
federal government and universities
has sparked incredible
innovations. It's made us the
envy of most of the globe,
and we're a place that people from
all over the world want to
come study.
We're a place that is
inventing things, commercializing
them, creating startups,
giving students the opportunity to
be more tomorrow than they were
yesterday.
And I understand
that there are concerns about the
cost of higher education.
I understand that there's concerns
about the ideological tilt of higher
education, I understand that there
is concerns about.
You know, whether students
can leave us without
debt and whether they can get
degrees. But here at UW-Madison,
they are graduating, they're not
having overloaded amounts of
debt, and I'm really proud of
the education that we're providing.
And so I hope that
our sector
can be clear-eyed about
possibilities for doing things
better, but I also really
hope Our nation,
as people look at this set
of issues and opportunities
and challenges, will recognize
that so much of what
has made America
strong actually is
deeply tied to our extraordinary
world-class system of higher
education.
And we sure need to hope that we
can keep it, keep and preserve that.
Jennifer Menouken, thanks very much.
Thank you.
Yes, I did.
Thank you. Thank you for indulging
us with those.
But we don't often get a chance to
speak with you.
And so we appreciate your time.
Happy to do it at a very important
moment.
Yes, thank you.
Thank you, take good care.
You too. All right, bye.