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Our time.

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That's a quote from the Wisconsin

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State Public Defender after the

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State Senate adjourned without

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taking up a bill to fund 52

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new positions, including 18

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additional attorneys.

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The agency says a staff shortage

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leaves defendants waiting for

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representation and a backlog

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of cases in the courts.

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Here to talk about it, Deputy State

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Public defender Bridget Krause,

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and thanks very much for being here.

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Morning, thanks for having me.

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So how has the shortage of support

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staff and attorneys grown?

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Um, it's grown tremendously over

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the last few years, especially since

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the pandemic, not only have we

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been, um, short with the number of

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private bar lawyers that are taking

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cases in the state of Wisconsin.

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We've also had an increase

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in the number of cases coming in,

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but we have not had an increase in

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number of public defenders.

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Our public defender support staff

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added to the SPD.

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So it has been growth over

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a number of years and I think after

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the pandemic, we finally saw how

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it was affecting both the legal

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system as well as the attorneys

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and the clients that are represented

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by the public defender's office.

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What are the consequences of

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not having enough people to timely

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defend everyone who needs

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it?

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People wait in custody longer,

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right? Cases go longer without

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having a lawyer.

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So we have had clients sitting in

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custody prior to a preliminary

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hearing, which they're entitled to

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have within 10 days.

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If they're in custody, 20 days if

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they're out of custody and they're

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sitting there without a lawyer

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because there's no lawyer to take

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their case.

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You also have cases in the system

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longer, right?

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So cases that might have...

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Resolved 6 months to

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9 months pre-pandemic.

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Now we're waiting longer to resolve

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or longer to even get an attorney.

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So there's a lot of delay in

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both getting a client, a

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lawyer, and there's a lot delay in

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resolving a case, which

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could have an impact on both

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the system as well as the

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individuals who, you

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know, the complaining witnesses in a

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case. The people that have on to the

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police for help.

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It delays.

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For them also.

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What are the frustrations like

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inside the courtroom,

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inside the criminal justice system?

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I think the judges are frustrated,

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right? They're frustrated because

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there's no lawyer sitting with the

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client at very important

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stages, including a preliminary

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hearing, as

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the case moves forward, right, it's

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hard to get a lawyer to sit with

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that client if there's no lawyers

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available.

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There's a lot of frustration by

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public defenders.

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Honestly, we want to represent our

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clients. We don't want people

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sitting in custody without a lawyer,

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right. We want people sitting there

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that could be innocent of the crimes

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that they've been accused of because

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they don't have a lawyer to

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represent them.

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I think it's frustrating for

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prosecutors too, honestly, because

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they've charged specific cases and

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someone doesn't have a lawyer,

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therefore that case cannot move

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forward. So I think there's a lot of

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frustration in the system.

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It's probably frustrating also,

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honestly for the sheriff's

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office that run the jails, because

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if you can't get a lawyer for a

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client, that client might sit in

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custody and then you have more

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people in custody than should be in

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custody and the jail can't handle

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it.

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The state did authorize new

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prosecutor positions.

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How does that exacerbate case

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delays?

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I mean, there's only so

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many lawyers to take the cases that

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are coming in. And when you add

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prosecutors, you add the number of

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cases coming into the system.

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So if you're adding prosecutors on

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one side, they're reviewing charges,

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they're charging cases, but if you

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don't have the lawyers on the other

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side to represent those clients,

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it just bottlenecks the system, so

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any progress that we make.

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In bringing in new lawyers, new

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private bar lawyers to take the

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cases, any progress we make in

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filling vacancies in the state

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public defenders really

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go nowhere because of

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the increase in the

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number of cases coming into the

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system. So you spoke to private

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bar attorneys who can be appointed

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and are they

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at all helping to offset this

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shortage?

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I think they're helping as much as

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they can, right?

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They also only have so

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much bandwidth, so they can also

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only take so many cases.

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We have some really great private

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bar partners who take cases

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for us, right, and they've taken

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cases for years, but

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at some point they're also saturated

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with representing clients, and it's

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not just a warm body next to

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a client, right.

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A client has a right.

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To effective ethical

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representation and if you have too

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many cases you can't provide that to

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a client so I think our private bar

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partners are working really hard to

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help us but again you

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only have so many lawyers and if

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your continue to bring the cases in

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you just don't have enough lawyers

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to handle those cases.

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Your agency calls this an

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unfunded mandate.

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What's the mandate?

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I think the mandate is

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You know, Gideon, the anniversary

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of Gideons was just this past

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Wednesday.

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And in GideON, the U.S.

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Supreme Court said that clients have

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a constitutional right to

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have a lawyer represent them.

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That's the mandate.

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When you don't have lawyers checking

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the prosecution,

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checking the police department,

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it... Causes a tremendous

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it causes an effect across

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the state across our counties

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across our cities because people

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are unchecked and they're

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able to prosecute people or

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charge people with very serious

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cases and if you don't have a lawyer

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sitting next to that client it

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affects the entire community

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so we have an obligation

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an obligation in our state

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to provide lawyers for

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people that are charged with crimes.

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There is a

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constitutional protectant those

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clients have to be proving guilty

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beyond a reasonable doubt.

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But you need a lawyer sitting next

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to that client, providing that

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defense, reviewing that

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discovery, providing advice to

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clients, and fighting in court if

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necessary.

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And when you don't have that, the

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entire system fails.

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We leave it there.

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Thanks very much.

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Thank you.

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You're an effective attorney.

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Thank you, I appreciate that.

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I try to be.

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So just one question

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before I let you go and that is

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what's the next step

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just keep kind of advocating for

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this?

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We have to, like we have to keep

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advocating with representatives in

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our communities.

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I think we have a lot of support

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from judges who have come up to us

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and said to us, like, what do you

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need? Who should I talk to?

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How can I get you more staff?

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Like, how can I make sure these

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things pass so that you get the

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resources that you need.

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And I think, we talked a lot about

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lawyers, but support staff is big

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for us too, because they do a lot of

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the work behind the scenes that you

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really need to get work done, right?

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So I think we have lot of a support

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in the system.

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We just have to get it before

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the legislator so that they will

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they will like provide us resources.

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Unlike the prosecutors, they get

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their resources from the counties.

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So they're paralegals, they're

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investigators, anybody else, their

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legal secretaries, their support

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staff, all comes from county

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funding. Ours can only come from the

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state. So we really rely on

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that legislation to pass so we

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can get those positions

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that we really need.

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So that's the next step is just

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continuing to talk to people,

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advocating for positions that we

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need in explaining why those

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positions are so important.

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Great, thank you.

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Thank you so much.