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Okay, great, great.

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Thank you so much, Tracy, for your

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time in this interview today.

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We really, really appreciate it.

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Thank you for having me.

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So to begin, just for

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our records, can I have you slowly

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say and spell your

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first and last name.

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My first name is Tori,

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T-O-R-E-Y.

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My last name is Dolan, D-O

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L.

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A N.

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Great.

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And can I?

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I have your title in this role for

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us today.

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I'm an assistant professor of law at

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the University of Wisconsin Law

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School.

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Great.

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And lastly, if any, can

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I have your tribal affiliation?

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I'm a citizen of the

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Choctaw Nation.

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Of Oklahoma.

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Okay great and your location

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today?

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I'm currently in my office in

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Madison, Wisconsin at the University

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of Wisconsin Law School.

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Okay, thank you.

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So this is really a

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big story here in Wisconsin

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that people across the

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state, especially in Northern

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Wisconsin, Northwoods are talking

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about.

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But to begin kind of in the broad

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sense, when people hear that

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LAC de Flambeau is a sovereign

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nation, what does that mean?

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Yeah, so the

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United States Constitution

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recognizes that

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Congress has the ability to regulate

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its relationship with

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Indian tribes, and in

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recognizing that they recognize

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Indian tribes as sovereign,

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meaning that they have the ability

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to govern themselves and their

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territory that predates

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the United states.

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And so when we talk about Lacta

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Flambeau being sovereign What we

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mean is that they have the ability

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to set their own laws and

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be governed by them,

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both their membership and their

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lands.

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Okay, and so

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when we talk about they can govern

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themselves, what does

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that mean for the communities

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that are around them?

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Well, Lacta

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Flambeau's reservation is

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checkerboarded, meaning that there

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is a predominant non-Indian

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community in the area.

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And so often what that means is that

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non-indian neighbors are

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intersecting with tribal law in

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interesting ways.

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The tribe retains the

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inherent sovereignty, meaning it's

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always existed within them, to

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regulate civil

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00:03:01,260 --> 00:03:03,139
jurisdiction in their area

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on certain matters.

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It gets very fact-specific and

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complicated depending on what

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the tribe is attempting to regulate,

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how the tribe is attempting, to

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regulate when it comes to

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non-Indians or non-indian land.

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But generally just being in

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tribal territory you are going to

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interact with tribal law in some

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capacity.

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So when that happens, when the

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tribe says they're exercising their

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sovereignty or exercising their

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rights, is that what that means?

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Yeah, it means that they're

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exercising their ability to have a

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say over what happens in their

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territory and in their community.

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So when we say their

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territory, can you explain what

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does ceded territory mean

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here in Wisconsin?

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Yes, so ceded territory

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usually refers to lands that

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were subject to

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a treaty, meaning

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that the tribe gives up certain

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rights over certain lands

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that they had prior to

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Europeans arriving on

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the continent and in

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exchange they secure a

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set of rights in a treaty.

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Many of those rights they already

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had.

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Some rights are going to be newly

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recognized.

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From the United States, such as

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payment for seeded

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lands or protection from

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other Europeans

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or protection for non-Indian

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communities.

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And so here in Wisconsin,

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there are a number of

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seeded land from

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Ojibwe, Menominee

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and other folks.

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I would say the only lands in

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Wisconsin that are not ceded from

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the local tribe would be

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the Oneida because the

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Oneid are originally from New

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York and were forcibly removed

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to Wisconsin.

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So there are 12 tribes in

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Wisconsin and we know that we have

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11 that are federally recognized,

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but each one has a different story

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it sounds like.

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Yes, each has a different story

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subject to different treaties and

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each tribe has different

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relationships with each other

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because many

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tribes were part of

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confederacies or political alliances

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or come from the

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same group.

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So there are a number of Ojibwe

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tribes in Wisconsin, for example.

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Mm-hmm.

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And when we say territories, does

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that also include waters?

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Yes.

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Okay.

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And in regards to Lactaflambo,

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we're looking at three cases.

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And speaking of waters, let's dive

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into the case of the fishing

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and the walleye fish

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and muskelenji, which has had

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a long history with

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tribal members and community members

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in Wisconsin.

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Oftentimes, in the past,

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it was very contentious

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and dangerous.

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Where we are now with

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this case is that they

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have said that due to environmental

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factors and other factors, they

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don't want non-tribal people fishing

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on 19 of their lakes,

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but they have 260 lakes.

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So they said, for these 19 lakes,

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due to various reasons, we don't

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non-Tribal members

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to fish on 19

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of these lakes, and we're putting an

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injunction on it.

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We're saying that you can't fish

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here, and it now has ended up in

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federal court.

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So as a sovereign nation,

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how do these cases end up

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in Federal Court?

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So, usually these cases dealing

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with hunting and fishing regulation,

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especially as they're related to the

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environment, end up in federal

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court, often because

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non-Indians are challenging

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the tribe's ability to regulate

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them in this way.

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I'll note that navigable

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waters are subject to

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a distinct legal standard within the

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United States, and it's different

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from regulating land,

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and its different from regulation

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tribal land.

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Now, here in this instance, the

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tribe is very concerned about the

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walleye in the muskie population,

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and the

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Supreme Court has recognized that

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Indian tribes retain the inherent

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sovereignty to regulate

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non-members in

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certain instances when the

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behavior of non- members is going to

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00:07:18,470 --> 00:07:20,829
affect the health, safety,

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00:07:20,830 --> 00:07:22,709
economic security, or welfare of the

217
00:07:22,710 --> 00:07:24,829
tribe. And so, from the tribe's

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00:07:24,830 --> 00:07:26,549
perspective here...

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00:07:26,550 --> 00:07:28,409
Walleye and Muskie are very

220
00:07:28,410 --> 00:07:30,169
important to the tribe's

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subsistence, to the tribes' culture.

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And so from their perspective,

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protecting the population in these

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19 lakes necessitates

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them regulating non-Indians

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00:07:41,890 --> 00:07:43,289
in this way.

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Now, on the other

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side, folks argue that the

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tribe doesn't retain the ability to

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00:07:49,250 --> 00:07:50,769
regulate non-members, and that's not

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00:07:50,770 --> 00:07:51,829
a part of the right that's

232
00:07:51,830 --> 00:07:54,269
guaranteed in the treaty.

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00:07:54,270 --> 00:07:57,229
But I will note that treaties don't

234
00:07:57,230 --> 00:07:59,109
contain the entirety of

235
00:07:59,110 --> 00:08:00,609
a tribe's sovereignty.

236
00:08:00,610 --> 00:08:02,429
They're just explicit reservation

237
00:08:02,430 --> 00:08:04,789
of rights secured

238
00:08:04,790 --> 00:08:06,469
at that time, but that doesn't mean

239
00:08:06,470 --> 00:08:08,390
it's the maximum of tribal power.

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00:08:09,710 --> 00:08:11,589
So are there limits

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00:08:11,590 --> 00:08:13,549
within

242
00:08:13,550 --> 00:08:15,509
treaty rights in terms of

243
00:08:15,510 --> 00:08:17,489
their rights and then who they can

244
00:08:17,490 --> 00:08:18,669
govern?

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00:08:18,670 --> 00:08:20,169
Yes, yes.

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00:08:20,170 --> 00:08:22,369
So I will note that

247
00:08:22,370 --> 00:08:24,549
the tribes here have very

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00:08:24,550 --> 00:08:26,589
strong hunting and fishing

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00:08:26,590 --> 00:08:27,990
rights for themselves.

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00:08:29,030 --> 00:08:30,989
Regulating other people is

251
00:08:30,990 --> 00:08:31,969
a different matter.

252
00:08:31,970 --> 00:08:33,769
So in the past, the federal court

253
00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:36,029
has recognized that tribes here

254
00:08:36,030 --> 00:08:38,269
do not have jurisdiction

255
00:08:38,270 --> 00:08:40,089
over navigable waters and

256
00:08:40,090 --> 00:08:42,129
do not have the ability to

257
00:08:42,130 --> 00:08:44,529
regulate non-Indians

258
00:08:44,530 --> 00:08:46,549
pursuant to those treaties.

259
00:08:46,550 --> 00:08:48,269
There are other instances in the

260
00:08:48,270 --> 00:08:50,429
country where courts have recognized

261
00:08:50,430 --> 00:08:52,589
tribal power over navigable waters

262
00:08:52,590 --> 00:08:55,169
pursuant to treaties, and

263
00:08:55,170 --> 00:08:56,989
in part because there was

264
00:08:56,990 --> 00:08:58,869
a distinct property

265
00:08:58,870 --> 00:09:00,909
regime laid out in those treaties,

266
00:09:00,910 --> 00:09:03,169
but here in this instance,

267
00:09:04,650 --> 00:09:06,469
as I see it, it seems to

268
00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:07,709
me that the tribe is trying to

269
00:09:07,710 --> 00:09:09,329
exercise a degree of inherent

270
00:09:09,330 --> 00:09:11,309
sovereignty that might

271
00:09:11,310 --> 00:09:13,330
be distinct from the treaty itself.

272
00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:17,419
So it's almost like a

273
00:09:17,420 --> 00:09:19,339
new element to their treaty or

274
00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:21,179
an addendum to their treaty.

275
00:09:21,180 --> 00:09:22,679
It's a degree of sovereignty that

276
00:09:22,680 --> 00:09:24,959
exists outside the treaty.

277
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:26,979
So imagine that you

278
00:09:26,980 --> 00:09:28,719
know before colonists come to the

279
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,579
United States, the tribe has

280
00:09:30,580 --> 00:09:32,479
a whole pizza pie right

281
00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,379
and the treaty

282
00:09:34,380 --> 00:09:36,199
is one slice of the

283
00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,499
pie that they decided to give away.

284
00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:40,179
The tribe has the remaining pieces

285
00:09:40,180 --> 00:09:42,239
and so inherent sovereignty might

286
00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,039
be a part of that those remaining

287
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:45,040
pieces.

288
00:09:45,660 --> 00:09:48,259
Okay. Thank you for explaining that.

289
00:09:48,260 --> 00:09:50,239
Again, in regards to

290
00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,159
Lac du Flambeau, beyond

291
00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:54,879
rivers and waters and territory,

292
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:56,859
property owners there are suing

293
00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:58,919
Lac du Flembeau Lake Superior

294
00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,039
of Chippewa for allegedly

295
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,279
restricting their access to

296
00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:03,939
a boat launch that's on private

297
00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:05,779
property, but also on the

298
00:10:05,780 --> 00:10:06,939
reservation.

299
00:10:06,940 --> 00:10:09,139
So first, why are there so many

300
00:10:09,140 --> 00:10:11,739
non-tribal members owning property

301
00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:13,519
on the Lac du Flambeau reservation.

302
00:10:14,690 --> 00:10:17,409
Yeah, so in the 19th century,

303
00:10:17,410 --> 00:10:19,489
Congress

304
00:10:19,490 --> 00:10:21,089
implemented this policy called

305
00:10:21,090 --> 00:10:22,149
allotment.

306
00:10:22,150 --> 00:10:24,389
And the idea was that where

307
00:10:24,390 --> 00:10:26,449
tribes own things in common,

308
00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:28,669
meaning all members

309
00:10:28,670 --> 00:10:30,509
and the tribe itself owns the

310
00:10:30,510 --> 00:10:32,329
property, they decided to

311
00:10:32,330 --> 00:10:35,009
break up that communal title and

312
00:10:35,010 --> 00:10:37,189
parcel out individual parcels

313
00:10:37,190 --> 00:10:39,229
of land to different families and

314
00:10:39,230 --> 00:10:41,159
then sell the surplus.

315
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:43,259
The process of selling the surplus

316
00:10:43,260 --> 00:10:45,659
land within the reservation is

317
00:10:45,660 --> 00:10:47,859
what led to these checkerboarded

318
00:10:47,860 --> 00:10:49,559
reservations that we see today,

319
00:10:49,560 --> 00:10:50,679
where there are significant

320
00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:52,979
populations of non-Indians that

321
00:10:52,980 --> 00:10:54,919
own fee land within the exterior

322
00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:56,819
reservation boundaries.

323
00:10:56,820 --> 00:10:58,759
So the non-tribal members that

324
00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,719
own free land within Lacta

325
00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:02,699
Flambeau,

326
00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:05,179
one has attempted to

327
00:11:05,180 --> 00:11:07,079
build a boat launch to

328
00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:08,819
one of these restricted lakes from

329
00:11:08,820 --> 00:11:10,359
the private property.

330
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:12,199
And this is the dispute

331
00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:13,219
at issue.

332
00:11:13,220 --> 00:11:15,079
Now, from

333
00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,939
the homeowner's perspective,

334
00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:19,199
you know, they

335
00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,159
view it as I'm not a member,

336
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,399
I'm subject to this tribe's

337
00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,179
jurisdiction, and this my land that

338
00:11:24,180 --> 00:11:26,379
I own in fee, meaning

339
00:11:26,380 --> 00:11:27,820
under state title.

340
00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,159
But from the tribe's perspective

341
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:32,659
that goes back to the inherent

342
00:11:32,660 --> 00:11:33,899
sovereignty element that I

343
00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:35,659
mentioned, where the court has

344
00:11:35,660 --> 00:11:36,799
recognized that there are some

345
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,739
instances where

346
00:11:38,740 --> 00:11:40,979
tribes do have the ability to

347
00:11:40,980 --> 00:11:43,119
regulate non-member conduct on

348
00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,679
fee land within the exterior

349
00:11:44,680 --> 00:11:46,919
reservation as part of their

350
00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,459
inherent sovereignty.

351
00:11:48,460 --> 00:11:50,739
And so that's the dispute.

352
00:11:50,740 --> 00:11:53,139
Is this environmental situation one

353
00:11:53,140 --> 00:11:55,079
that justifies the tribe

354
00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:57,619
having civil authority over

355
00:11:57,620 --> 00:12:00,169
fee land within the reservation.

356
00:12:00,170 --> 00:12:01,829
Thank you for explaining that.

357
00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:04,169
So the association

358
00:12:04,170 --> 00:12:06,689
went to tribal court and lost,

359
00:12:06,690 --> 00:12:09,249
and the tribe won, and then they

360
00:12:09,250 --> 00:12:10,909
elevated it to federal court.

361
00:12:10,910 --> 00:12:11,949
How can that happen?

362
00:12:11,950 --> 00:12:14,069
How come it's not ended at

363
00:12:14,070 --> 00:12:16,489
the tribal court made a decision and

364
00:12:16,490 --> 00:12:17,490
that's that?

365
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,459
Um, the reason that

366
00:12:20,460 --> 00:12:22,259
things don't end at tribal court is

367
00:12:22,260 --> 00:12:24,139
because it's a, it's

368
00:12:24,140 --> 00:12:26,239
a contest of jurisdiction,

369
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:27,539
which tribal jurisdiction over

370
00:12:27,540 --> 00:12:29,359
non-members has been deemed to

371
00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:31,479
be a question of federal

372
00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,499
law, but there is a doctrine called

373
00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:34,679
the tribal court exhaustion

374
00:12:34,680 --> 00:12:36,519
doctrine, meaning that before

375
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:38,239
you can go to federal court and

376
00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:39,699
challenge the tribe's ability to

377
00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:41,699
exercise authority over you, you

378
00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:43,619
have to exhaust all of the

379
00:12:43,620 --> 00:12:45,659
available remedies within

380
00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:47,219
the tribal government.

381
00:12:47,220 --> 00:12:49,099
So once a plaintiff has

382
00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:51,079
done that, then they can

383
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,959
enter into federal court

384
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,239
to challenge the tribe's

385
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:56,519
exercise of jurisdiction at all.

386
00:12:57,930 --> 00:13:00,029
So, it seems like

387
00:13:00,030 --> 00:13:02,009
there's a lot of steps that happen

388
00:13:02,010 --> 00:13:04,189
before it can reach federal court.

389
00:13:04,190 --> 00:13:05,389
Yes.

390
00:13:05,390 --> 00:13:06,449
Okay.

391
00:13:06,450 --> 00:13:08,609
And going back to the Dawes Act,

392
00:13:08,610 --> 00:13:10,769
when did it end and is it still

393
00:13:10,770 --> 00:13:13,010
playing a role in to flambeau.

394
00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:15,899
It's certainly still playing a role

395
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,099
in Lacta Flambeau because many

396
00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:20,839
of those parcels that were,

397
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:22,839
you know, removed from tribal

398
00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:23,840
ownership,

399
00:13:25,140 --> 00:13:26,999
they're now the parcels of

400
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:28,959
land that are subject to dispute or

401
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,779
access to those parceles of land

402
00:13:30,780 --> 00:13:32,019
is what's subject to the dispute in

403
00:13:32,020 --> 00:13:33,759
the road cases.

404
00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:35,879
And so it continues to impact

405
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:37,779
the tribe's ability to govern today

406
00:13:37,780 --> 00:13:39,619
because I'm sure people can

407
00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:40,659
imagine.

408
00:13:40,660 --> 00:13:42,419
You know, when you're trying to

409
00:13:42,420 --> 00:13:43,759
regulate the environment of an

410
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,759
entire reservation, but you

411
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,559
have parcel A and parcel B and

412
00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:49,679
parcel C that you have

413
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:51,639
to prove your authority

414
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,599
over, well then it gets really

415
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,239
hard to protect the entire

416
00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,359
environment, because you

417
00:13:57,360 --> 00:13:59,239
have to prove your

418
00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:01,239
case for all of these

419
00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:02,919
broken up parcels within your

420
00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:03,920
territory.

421
00:14:04,510 --> 00:14:07,469
And who broke up those parcels?

422
00:14:07,470 --> 00:14:08,409
Congress.

423
00:14:08,410 --> 00:14:09,869
Congress did that, through the Doss

424
00:14:09,870 --> 00:14:11,269
Act. Yes.

425
00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:12,749
And created that checkerboard that

426
00:14:12,750 --> 00:14:14,239
we're speaking about.

427
00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,259
Yes, so the Congress created

428
00:14:16,260 --> 00:14:18,259
the Dawes Act, which authorized

429
00:14:18,260 --> 00:14:20,439
Indian agents to go into

430
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,259
tribal communities parcel out

431
00:14:22,260 --> 00:14:24,219
the communal land, sell the

432
00:14:24,220 --> 00:14:26,039
surplus. And so it's

433
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:27,939
that process that has created

434
00:14:27,940 --> 00:14:30,619
the checkerboard pattern today.

435
00:14:30,620 --> 00:14:32,139
Part of the Daw's Act was motivated

436
00:14:32,140 --> 00:14:33,759
by this belief that the tribes would

437
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,659
disappear, that eventually

438
00:14:35,660 --> 00:14:37,519
tribal people would die out

439
00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,199
or assimilate and be

440
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:40,779
indistinguishable from non-Indian

441
00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:41,679
populations.

442
00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:43,659
And so because of

443
00:14:43,660 --> 00:14:44,660
that...

444
00:14:45,770 --> 00:14:47,649
That's why we have so many legal

445
00:14:47,650 --> 00:14:49,889
and political issues today because

446
00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:52,249
they really didn't expect tribes

447
00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:53,649
and tribal people to endure.

448
00:14:55,550 --> 00:14:57,479
And they didn't disappear.

449
00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:58,299
We did not.

450
00:14:58,300 --> 00:14:59,879
Right, right, right.

451
00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:01,859
They didn't disappear and still

452
00:15:01,860 --> 00:15:03,999
asserting their tribal

453
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,000
sovereignty.

454
00:15:05,900 --> 00:15:07,839
So in the case of the Four Roads,

455
00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,839
those roads were

456
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,839
essentially

457
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:13,939
chopped up and checkerboard

458
00:15:13,940 --> 00:15:15,259
during the Dawes Act.

459
00:15:15,260 --> 00:15:16,700
Is that why they lost that case?

460
00:15:17,710 --> 00:15:19,849
Well, so the roads themselves

461
00:15:19,850 --> 00:15:21,669
are on tribal land, but

462
00:15:21,670 --> 00:15:23,489
these are the roads that access

463
00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:25,429
these private parcels,

464
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:27,289
because when Congress chopped

465
00:15:27,290 --> 00:15:29,169
up, you know,

466
00:15:29,170 --> 00:15:30,469
these reservations and these parcels

467
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:32,469
of land, it was before

468
00:15:32,470 --> 00:15:34,349
cars and before the massive

469
00:15:34,350 --> 00:15:36,109
roadway infrastructure that we have.

470
00:15:36,110 --> 00:15:37,989
So, after,

471
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:39,969
you know, these parcels were divided

472
00:15:39,970 --> 00:15:42,369
up in the 1950s,

473
00:15:42,370 --> 00:15:44,269
I believe, the Bureau of Indian

474
00:15:44,270 --> 00:15:45,270
Affairs.

475
00:15:46,150 --> 00:15:48,449
Agreed to some easements

476
00:15:48,450 --> 00:15:50,389
over these

477
00:15:50,390 --> 00:15:51,609
tribal lands and that's how these

478
00:15:51,610 --> 00:15:52,869
roads were made.

479
00:15:52,870 --> 00:15:54,809
Now the reason that the Bureau

480
00:15:54,810 --> 00:15:56,689
of Indian Affairs had the

481
00:15:56,690 --> 00:15:58,469
authority to do that is because

482
00:15:58,470 --> 00:16:00,309
legally within the United States

483
00:16:00,310 --> 00:16:02,229
the federal government holds

484
00:16:02,230 --> 00:16:04,169
the title to tribal land for

485
00:16:04,170 --> 00:16:06,169
the benefit of Indian tribes.

486
00:16:06,170 --> 00:16:08,109
So there's been a long history of

487
00:16:08,110 --> 00:16:09,989
the United states exercising that

488
00:16:09,990 --> 00:16:12,189
legal authority to make decisions

489
00:16:12,190 --> 00:16:14,309
without consulting the tribe.

490
00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:16,169
Now. Bureau of Indian Affairs

491
00:16:16,170 --> 00:16:18,249
approved these leases

492
00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:20,149
or these easements for

493
00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:22,069
these roads, but they were temporary

494
00:16:22,070 --> 00:16:24,109
and they expired.

495
00:16:24,110 --> 00:16:26,669
And so once they expired,

496
00:16:26,670 --> 00:16:28,789
the tribe wanted to

497
00:16:28,790 --> 00:16:30,729
engage in negotiation with

498
00:16:30,730 --> 00:16:32,629
the village and the township

499
00:16:32,630 --> 00:16:34,489
to renew these easement,

500
00:16:34,490 --> 00:16:36,369
but the tribe wanted payment and the

501
00:16:36,370 --> 00:16:38,609
tribe did not want to

502
00:16:38,610 --> 00:16:40,489
authorize permanent easements.

503
00:16:40,490 --> 00:16:41,829
Because once you authorize a

504
00:16:41,830 --> 00:16:43,389
permanent easement that means that

505
00:16:43,390 --> 00:16:44,909
you give away that property right

506
00:16:44,910 --> 00:16:46,269
forever.

507
00:16:46,270 --> 00:16:48,409
And so because these

508
00:16:48,410 --> 00:16:50,029
private parcels of land that arose

509
00:16:50,030 --> 00:16:51,709
during the Dawes Act, people bought

510
00:16:51,710 --> 00:16:53,549
them and they needed a way to

511
00:16:53,550 --> 00:16:54,649
get to them.

512
00:16:54,650 --> 00:16:55,669
The Bureau of Indian Affairs

513
00:16:55,670 --> 00:16:57,929
approved these easements and

514
00:16:57,930 --> 00:16:59,889
once they expired, the tribe

515
00:16:59,890 --> 00:17:01,429
sought to assert their property

516
00:17:01,430 --> 00:17:02,889
rights by closing these roads.

517
00:17:03,950 --> 00:17:05,789
And that's what led to that lawsuit.

518
00:17:07,120 --> 00:17:09,078
Why is it important for Lacta

519
00:17:09,079 --> 00:17:10,760
Flambeau to get their laws enforced?

520
00:17:12,410 --> 00:17:14,229
It's important for the, for Lacta

521
00:17:14,230 --> 00:17:15,629
Flambeau to get their laws enforced

522
00:17:15,630 --> 00:17:17,608
because there's

523
00:17:17,609 --> 00:17:18,868
nowhere else in the world where

524
00:17:18,869 --> 00:17:21,309
Lactaflo, Lactoflambeau sovereignty

525
00:17:21,310 --> 00:17:23,489
is governing,

526
00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:24,449
right?

527
00:17:24,450 --> 00:17:26,269
This land, this territory

528
00:17:26,270 --> 00:17:28,169
is very important to them,

529
00:17:28,170 --> 00:17:30,249
you know,

530
00:17:30,250 --> 00:17:32,489
for folks who have been to the area,

531
00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:34,369
you know, the tribe is very present

532
00:17:34,370 --> 00:17:35,450
in the community.

533
00:17:36,570 --> 00:17:38,529
The lakes there, you

534
00:17:38,530 --> 00:17:40,669
know, holds their clan

535
00:17:40,670 --> 00:17:42,029
stories, their religion.

536
00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:45,589
And so their ability to

537
00:17:45,590 --> 00:17:47,129
enforce their own laws means their

538
00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:48,969
ability to continue to exist as a

539
00:17:48,970 --> 00:17:50,829
people, to continue to exist in

540
00:17:50,830 --> 00:17:52,889
their territory, and to

541
00:17:52,890 --> 00:17:55,089
protect the area to ensure that

542
00:17:55,090 --> 00:17:57,729
seven generations from now,

543
00:17:57,730 --> 00:17:59,509
Lacta Flambeau people can continue

544
00:17:59,510 --> 00:18:01,049
to exists there.

545
00:18:01,050 --> 00:18:02,749
And so every time that sovereignty

546
00:18:02,750 --> 00:18:04,509
is chipped away in a tribe's

547
00:18:04,510 --> 00:18:06,529
territory, it's

548
00:18:06,530 --> 00:18:08,509
really devastating because tribal

549
00:18:08,510 --> 00:18:10,489
sovereignty exists in our

550
00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:11,490
communities.

551
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:14,879
And not outside them.

552
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,439
So we have to protect every bit of

553
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:17,440
sovereignty we can.

554
00:18:18,530 --> 00:18:20,669
And they keep fighting

555
00:18:20,670 --> 00:18:22,609
it, you know, in such a

556
00:18:22,610 --> 00:18:25,369
short time we're seeing these cases.

557
00:18:25,370 --> 00:18:26,549
What does that say about the tribe?

558
00:18:26,550 --> 00:18:28,609
And also does that cost money to

559
00:18:28,610 --> 00:18:30,629
keep having to go to court?

560
00:18:30,630 --> 00:18:32,709
It costs a massive amount

561
00:18:32,710 --> 00:18:34,349
of money.

562
00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:36,209
And, you know, Lacta Fembo

563
00:18:36,210 --> 00:18:37,889
is in this situation where they have

564
00:18:37,890 --> 00:18:39,509
these three different cases, three

565
00:18:39,510 --> 00:18:41,089
different issues.

566
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:43,509
So that gets very, very expensive,

567
00:18:43,510 --> 00:18:45,329
because these are all distinct

568
00:18:45,330 --> 00:18:47,189
cases with distinct

569
00:18:47,190 --> 00:18:48,649
legal issues that take their own

570
00:18:48,650 --> 00:18:50,249
time and research.

571
00:18:50,250 --> 00:18:52,189
And you know it's very

572
00:18:52,190 --> 00:18:54,289
hard on tribal leadership when

573
00:18:54,290 --> 00:18:56,029
these moments come up, because, you

574
00:18:56,030 --> 00:18:58,009
know, essentially tribal leadership

575
00:18:58,010 --> 00:19:00,629
has to decide, do we fight this?

576
00:19:00,630 --> 00:19:02,549
Do we spend that money,

577
00:19:02,550 --> 00:19:04,649
which often means taking

578
00:19:04,650 --> 00:19:07,469
money from community services,

579
00:19:07,470 --> 00:19:09,709
from health centers, from schools,

580
00:19:09,710 --> 00:19:11,470
from other vital services?

581
00:19:12,950 --> 00:19:15,049
Do we sacrifice those things

582
00:19:15,050 --> 00:19:16,689
to protect sovereignty in the long

583
00:19:16,690 --> 00:19:18,789
run? And those are really difficult

584
00:19:18,790 --> 00:19:19,909
political decisions.

585
00:19:19,910 --> 00:19:21,569
I really don't envy any tribal

586
00:19:21,570 --> 00:19:23,869
leader that's in that situation.

587
00:19:23,870 --> 00:19:25,729
But I think from

588
00:19:25,730 --> 00:19:27,069
what I've seen from statements from

589
00:19:27,070 --> 00:19:28,989
tribal leadership, and from

590
00:19:28,990 --> 00:19:30,929
the way the tribe has asserted

591
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:31,930
its rights,

592
00:19:33,090 --> 00:19:34,949
they recognize that

593
00:19:34,950 --> 00:19:36,869
these are existential fights

594
00:19:36,870 --> 00:19:38,909
about the future and the continued

595
00:19:38,910 --> 00:19:41,129
existence of the tribe and

596
00:19:41,130 --> 00:19:42,429
they're going to fight them.

597
00:19:44,140 --> 00:19:45,959
And as we finish

598
00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:47,139
up, you know, these are three

599
00:19:47,140 --> 00:19:48,959
distinct cases

600
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,539
recently with them.

601
00:19:50,540 --> 00:19:52,019
There's frustration for tribal

602
00:19:52,020 --> 00:19:53,379
members. There's also frustration

603
00:19:53,380 --> 00:19:55,479
for non-tribal members.

604
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:57,359
And I was at one hearing, and

605
00:19:57,360 --> 00:19:59,299
the judge said consistently that

606
00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,319
he wants the tribe to work on

607
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,539
their state-to-state relationship as

608
00:20:03,540 --> 00:20:05,999
a tribe with the state of Wisconsin.

609
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:07,799
What do you think is going to happen

610
00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:08,800
moving forward?

611
00:20:10,150 --> 00:20:11,729
It's hard to predict what's going to

612
00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:13,929
happen, and I will

613
00:20:13,930 --> 00:20:15,829
say, you know, this

614
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:18,349
exists in the context of

615
00:20:18,350 --> 00:20:20,389
decades and decades and decades of

616
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:22,109
conflict, especially when it comes

617
00:20:22,110 --> 00:20:23,589
to fishing.

618
00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:25,409
So, you, know,

619
00:20:25,410 --> 00:20:27,529
history runs deep in the Northwoods,

620
00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:28,909
for sure.

621
00:20:28,910 --> 00:20:31,069
But my hope

622
00:20:31,070 --> 00:20:33,069
is that, you know, especially

623
00:20:33,070 --> 00:20:35,449
as we're dealing with more and more

624
00:20:35,450 --> 00:20:37,569
consequences of climate change,

625
00:20:37,570 --> 00:20:40,069
I hope folks in the Northwoods.

626
00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:41,289
You know, tribal members and

627
00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:43,449
non-tribal members, will view tribal

628
00:20:43,450 --> 00:20:45,389
sovereignty as an asset, you

629
00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:47,389
know? It's an additional layer of

630
00:20:47,390 --> 00:20:49,529
protection that can be exercised

631
00:20:49,530 --> 00:20:51,189
to protect the environment, to

632
00:20:51,190 --> 00:20:52,789
protect a community, to protect the

633
00:20:52,790 --> 00:20:54,129
walleye, to the protect the muskie

634
00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:55,049
fish.

635
00:20:55,050 --> 00:20:57,189
And while, you now, these things

636
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:59,049
are hard in the immediate

637
00:20:59,050 --> 00:21:01,049
moment, I hope

638
00:21:01,050 --> 00:21:03,089
that folks can come together on

639
00:21:03,090 --> 00:21:04,849
all sides of the issue, you know

640
00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:06,769
DNR, Lacta Flambeau, the

641
00:21:06,770 --> 00:21:08,719
fish hatcheries, the

642
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,019
recreational fishers, the tribal

643
00:21:10,020 --> 00:21:11,539
members.

644
00:21:11,540 --> 00:21:13,239
I hope they can all come together

645
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,459
and find commonality

646
00:21:15,460 --> 00:21:17,459
in the fact that everybody

647
00:21:17,460 --> 00:21:18,999
up there loves the land.

648
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:20,699
The Northwoods are beautiful, and I

649
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:22,239
think everybody wants to protect the

650
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,240
Northwood.

651
00:21:24,070 --> 00:21:24,949
Thank you.

652
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:26,009
Thank you for that, Tori.

653
00:21:26,010 --> 00:21:27,209
I think we'll end on that note.

654
00:21:27,210 --> 00:21:28,399
Thank you so much.

655
00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:29,449
Thank you.

656
00:21:29,450 --> 00:21:30,849
Thank you.

657
00:21:30,850 --> 00:21:32,669
All right, so I think we

658
00:21:32,670 --> 00:21:34,289
are good.

659
00:21:34,290 --> 00:21:36,269
We have everything.

660
00:21:36,270 --> 00:21:38,089
I was wondering if you have, do you

661
00:21:38,090 --> 00:21:39,889
have any published books or anything

662
00:21:39,890 --> 00:21:41,149
with your name on the cover that you

663
00:21:41,150 --> 00:21:42,729
could send pictures to us if I

664
00:21:42,730 --> 00:21:44,999
needed some B-roll footage?

665
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,059
Yeah, I don't have, um,

666
00:21:48,060 --> 00:21:49,939
books, I have law review articles,

667
00:21:49,940 --> 00:21:51,959
and then I've, uh, I

668
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:52,960
have some,

669
00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:55,499
I filed a couple of Supreme Court

670
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:56,639
briefs.

671
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:58,259
I have one that has my name on the

672
00:21:58,260 --> 00:22:00,039
front that's printed.

673
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,419
Oh, wait, actually I do have

674
00:22:01,420 --> 00:22:03,249
printouts. Yes, I can send you that.

675
00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:05,189
Yep, send them to me if you know if

676
00:22:05,190 --> 00:22:07,149
you or if you had any photos of you

677
00:22:07,150 --> 00:22:09,809
teaching in the classroom pointing

678
00:22:09,810 --> 00:22:11,789
at a whiteboard or wall

679
00:22:11,790 --> 00:22:13,369
just for any background footage I

680
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:14,809
can play around since you weren't

681
00:22:14,810 --> 00:22:16,449
able to come to the office today.

682
00:22:16,450 --> 00:22:16,969
Yes.

683
00:22:16,970 --> 00:22:18,148
Yes, absolutely.

684
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:19,849
All right, so email those to me when

685
00:22:19,850 --> 00:22:21,049
you can.

686
00:22:21,050 --> 00:22:22,829
And this is due to air this week,

687
00:22:22,830 --> 00:22:24,709
but if not, then it'll be the

688
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:25,669
following week. So I'll keep you

689
00:22:25,670 --> 00:22:26,319
posted.

690
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:27,769
Okay, sounds great.

691
00:22:27,770 --> 00:22:29,249
All right. Thank you, Tori.

692
00:22:29,250 --> 00:22:30,439
I appreciate your time.

693
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:31,479
Yeah, thank you so much.

694
00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:32,640
All right, take care, bye-bye.