And so do you prefer Charles
or Charlie for how
we refer to you in the program?
Um, so public presentation,
I usually refer to myself as
Charles.
Um, it's confusing because I always
introduce myself as Charlie,
but Charles is consistent.
That's what people will find like in
other news sources and on our
websites and stuff.
Yeah, we get that all the time.
It's why I
pay close attention.
So,
and then pronunciation.
How do you pronounce your last name?
So it's Charles Carlin,
just like the comedian.
Okay, perfect.
All right. Are you ready to go?
Yeah, go ahead.
Okay, um,
so just to start, what was your
reaction when lawmakers failed
to reauthorize this program?
I think the failure to reauthorize
Nils Nelson was just such
an unforced error on the
part of lawmakers.
There was plenty of
political will on both sides
of the aisle.
The support from voters
is just absolute.
I mean, you can't have an issue that
gets broader public support.
And so it was an
unnecessary victim of
partisanship in the Capitol.
So how expansive was the program
and how important was it to
Wisconsin conservation effort?
So I think the Wisconsin landscape
and the outdoor recreation
infrastructure that we have in
Wisconsin simply wouldn't be
here today without the
successes of the Knowles Nelson
Stewardship Program.
The program has been operating for
over 35 years,
has helped us permanently protect
more than 650,000
acres of land, most of which is
open for public recreation,
getting out there birdwatching,
going hunting, going for a hike with
your family. And
every single neighborhood in
the state has been touched by
Knowles-Nelson.
It's not an exaggeration.
More than 90% of households are
within a mile of a Knowles
Nelson investment.
So these are the trails that we
walk and bike on, the beach
fronts where we go swimming, the
weed harvesters that help keep our
lakes clean, the playground
equipment that our kids play on at
local parks.
All of this is made possible by
the Knowles Nelsen Stewardship
Program.
That being said.
The program has really been whittled
away over the last 15
years or so.
That's why we see this incredible
maintenance backlog on
state properties.
And so it's a
crisis and it's sort of an
unnecessary catastrophe for funding
to run out.
And at the same time, the problems
have been mounting for a while.
And so is the
backlog of maintenance and those
other items you referenced part
of why it failed
to be reauthorized?
No, the failure to reauthorize the
program is petty partisan
politics.
So not to drag you and your viewers
through the weeds too much, but
there used to be a law on the books
that would allow a single
anonymous member of a
legislative committee to block
almost any Knowles-Nelson project
from moving forward.
This is after the legislature had
appropriated money for the program,
after the DNR had carefully
evaluated the grants that
came in and chose to award funds,
then you could have this single
anonymous legislator step in at
the last moment and say, nope,
we're not moving forward.
There was no way for the public to
know who it was, why it
happened, and there was no mechanism
to get a project unstuck.
So if that sounds crazy,
it's because it was.
And the Wisconsin Supreme Court
agreed and ruled
six to one.
Hey, this is unconstitutional and
can't happen.
So that legislative veto
went away.
And then what we saw was a very
small number of lawmakers,
mostly senators on the Republican
side, say we're
upset because we lost this
power to anonymously block projects.
And therefore, instead of finding a
new path forward through policy,
we'll simply zero out funding for
the program.
Wow.
So what happens
to existing
Knowles-Nelson investments,
land, and future projects?
So land that has been protected
with Knowles-Nelson is
permanently protected.
Nothing is going to undo
that.
What it means, however, moving
forward is if
we need a new segment of
the Ice Age Trail or the North
Country Trail, there's no state
money to make that happen.
If a community is growing and
needs a new neighborhood park,
the Knowles Nelson Stewardship
Program is what used to provide the
foundational funding for
that. And so that work stops.
We have no other significant
source of funding for acquiring
parkland, conservation
areas, recreation areas in the
state. And then all
of that stuff that we need to get
out and enjoy the places that make
Wisconsin special.
So a trailhead to park your car at,
a kiosk that shows you the map of
where you're gonna go walk,
the boat launch to put your kayak or
your fishing boat in the water.
As that stuff ages and
needs to be repaired, we
have now shot ourselves in the foot
and taken away really our
only significant source of funding
to do that, to take care of
that infrastructure.
And so how does Wisconsin's
investment, at least with this
project and overall in
conservation compare to
other states, both with
Knowles-Nelson and now without it?
Yeah So for a
long time, Wisconsin was really the
envy of the nation because
when Knowles Nelson was
founded in 1989
and remember this was a
real bipartisan success, it was
an effort led by legislative
Democrats, signed into law by
governor Tommy Thompson, a prominent
Republican, governor Thompson
then went on to brag over and over
again about how his administration
protected more land than
any other governor's administration
in Wisconsin history.
And we
had more financial
resources to protect our land
and water and to help people get
outside than most other
states.
Starting in 2011 or
so, that story really
changed and we saw the
state start to significantly
pair back Knowles-Nelson
funding so that really
the program became kind of a shadow
of itself while our
neighbors really supercharged their
efforts. So.
In Minnesota, they have what they
call their legacy amendment that
is putting hundreds and hundreds of
millions of dollars into natural
resources and outdoor recreation.
Some very red states like
Georgia, Florida,
Missouri, Texas are
all investing hundreds of
million of dollars in conservation
and outdoor recreation.
Because this is a growing economy,
it's an important part of our
economic foundation.
And also because as the climate
changes, it becomes more
and more important to make those
investments in natural spaces
like wetlands that can protect our
communities.
So our neighbors, they've got their
foot on the gas and Wisconsin,
we just turned the engine off.
Marissa, I think you're muted there.
Sorry, I read that somewhere
that today,
even with Knowles-Nelson as
it was,
Wisconsin is last in
conservation investment.
And so without it,
we're even worse off than
last. Is that true?
I think that metric that you're
referring to is Wisconsin ranks
dead last in the nation
in our investment in our
state parks.
State parks is one important area
where Knowles-Nelson provides
funds.
Some of what got us there is that
the legislature a number of years
ago took away all
tax funding support for the
state parks and tried to make them
funded exclusively by.
User fees, those stickers we all
put on our windshields to get into
the state parks and that it
just doesn't work.
That's not actually enough money to
take care of both the
built infrastructure and
all of the natural places that
are out there.
So I think that's one really
striking example of how,
as a state, we've really walked away
from our commitment to
caring for know, what really makes
Wisconsin special, which is all
of these remarkable outdoor places.
Um,
so.
Was this a lot of money?
Was it the financial aspect
that kind of killed
it and the ability to veto a
project? Or was it just the
ability to veto specific project
in what
it was trying to achieve?
It's really not for a lack of
funds.
So, as we all know, Wisconsin is
sitting on a very healthy surplus
right now. We've got about two and
a half billion extra dollars sitting
in the bank.
Knowles-Nelson was only
had about $33 million a
year appropriated to it.
And when I said earlier that it's
really become a shadow of itself,
go back to 2007, 2008,
we had three times as much
money allocated to the program.
In nominal dollars.
And then if you account for
inflation to actually have that
kind of purchasing power today, we
would be having to put something
like $200 million a year
towards Knowles-Nelson.
We have that money.
It's a matter of priorities.
What we choose to say is
important.
You'll occasionally hear a
legislator who's critical of the
program say, we're just running up
the state's credit card
by making these Knowles Nelson
investments. And that's fiscally
irresponsible.
So we ran those numbers and what we
found is that right now with
the money that we dedicate each
year as well as debt service
payments, Knowles Nelson costs each
Wisconsin resident about $11.
So I took my kid to fish fry at
Culver's the other week and I think
it was about $15 each.
This is a value we can afford.
Is there still a chance that
lawmakers will reauthorize?
Absolutely.
So, you know, this doesn't have
to be Knowles Nelson is done
forever. So what's happened is the
money has run out, but the
program stays on the books, so
all of the laws that guided are
there.
The DNR staff who administer the
program are still there.
What we need is for the legislature
to come back and
invest money in the program,
so that it can get moving again.
And, you know, what we've seen is
as the the program officially lapsed
on June 30th and
candidates and legislators,
mostly on the Democratic side,
have been saying this is a
top priority for us to come
back and get the program
funded, that we're gonna fix
this come January, come
the 2027 state budget.
And I certainly believe that that
intention is there.
I think the responsibility for all
of us as Wisconsin residents and
voters is to be.
Asking those very direct questions
of our candidates and legislators.
Are you gonna fix Knowles-Nelson?
Are you going to make sure that we
can acquire more conservation
land in the future?
Because I do think that our November
elections are going to have
really real consequences
for what kind of latitude
the legislature has to
fund Knowles Nelson again and what
priorities they'll choose.
Is there anything else you want to
add?
Something that's important for
people to know?
I think the last thing that I would
say is that, you know,
Knowles-Nelson really does touch
us all.
So Knowles Nelson funds our
forest products industry.
It holds the working forests of the
Northwoods together.
It supports our state parks.
If you go visit Devil's Lake,
we just added 200 acres to
Devil's lake this year through
a Knowles Nelsen investment.
Or if you live in an urban area and
you're a bike commuter, say you ride
the Cap City Trail to work in
Madison.
That's there because of the
stewardship program.
So it has done so much good
for us.
It is probably the least
controversial investment that the
state makes according to the public.
So, you know, let's just help our
legislators like get it together,
get back on their feet and get this
thing funded again.
All right, that's all I have for
you.
So just to make sure
we have it all correct,
your title with Gathering
Waters.
Chief Strategy Officer.
Okay, and
You are, so we have a graphic
that goes up with your name and we
put a locator on it.
So where should we
say you're joining us from?
Oh, I am
in Northern Langlade
County right now.
I'm on a tiny little lake called
Duck Lake, sort of on the Langlado
County, Langladen and
Oneida County line.
Okay,
is there like a town that
we can reference?
Yeah, the closest town is Summit
Lake, Wisconsin.
Okay, and then
any questions that you have
for me?
Um, I think you said this was going
to air tomorrow. Is that right?
That's correct, so our
program airs statewide at
730 on
Fridays.
So this will be,
the whole interview won't be used,
we'll use some excerpts, and then
we'll probably use additional
pieces on our website.
And so I can
send you the links once they're up
on our web site, but you can also
catch it live tomorrow
night, and then, we re-air on
Sunday mornings as well.
OK, great.
And I guess last question, are
you interviewing any policymakers
about this story as well?
Or will it be just kind of me
speaking about Knowles-Nelson or?
It'll just be this,
we might do something more on it in
the future, especially we're
doing a lot of election coverage
that's kind of issue-based.
So it's possible we'll touch on
this, but this is just to kind of,
we haven't covered Knowles-Nelson
as this has been progressing.
And so this is to give
viewers an opportunity to understand
what it is,
what's happening and what
is gonna be
possible in the feature.
Cool sounds good.
Well, thank you very much for
reaching out and I really appreciate
you all covering this story I think
it's an important one
Yeah, thanks for making time.
I think we interrupted a holiday,
so really appreciate it.
No problem.
All right, take care.
All right. Yeah, have a great week.
YouTube, bye.