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And so do you prefer Charles

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or Charlie for how

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we refer to you in the program?

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Um, so public presentation,

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I usually refer to myself as

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Charles.

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Um, it's confusing because I always

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introduce myself as Charlie,

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but Charles is consistent.

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That's what people will find like in

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other news sources and on our

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websites and stuff.

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Yeah, we get that all the time.

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It's why I

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pay close attention.

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So,

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and then pronunciation.

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How do you pronounce your last name?

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So it's Charles Carlin,

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just like the comedian.

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Okay, perfect.

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All right. Are you ready to go?

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Yeah, go ahead.

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Okay, um,

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so just to start, what was your

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reaction when lawmakers failed

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to reauthorize this program?

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I think the failure to reauthorize

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Nils Nelson was just such

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an unforced error on the

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part of lawmakers.

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There was plenty of

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political will on both sides

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of the aisle.

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The support from voters

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is just absolute.

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I mean, you can't have an issue that

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gets broader public support.

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And so it was an

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unnecessary victim of

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partisanship in the Capitol.

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So how expansive was the program

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and how important was it to

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Wisconsin conservation effort?

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So I think the Wisconsin landscape

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and the outdoor recreation

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infrastructure that we have in

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Wisconsin simply wouldn't be

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here today without the

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successes of the Knowles Nelson

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Stewardship Program.

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The program has been operating for

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over 35 years,

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has helped us permanently protect

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more than 650,000

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acres of land, most of which is

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open for public recreation,

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getting out there birdwatching,

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going hunting, going for a hike with

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your family. And

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every single neighborhood in

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the state has been touched by

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Knowles-Nelson.

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It's not an exaggeration.

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More than 90% of households are

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within a mile of a Knowles

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Nelson investment.

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So these are the trails that we

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walk and bike on, the beach

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fronts where we go swimming, the

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weed harvesters that help keep our

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lakes clean, the playground

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equipment that our kids play on at

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local parks.

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All of this is made possible by

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the Knowles Nelsen Stewardship

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Program.

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That being said.

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The program has really been whittled

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away over the last 15

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years or so.

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That's why we see this incredible

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maintenance backlog on

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state properties.

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And so it's a

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crisis and it's sort of an

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unnecessary catastrophe for funding

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to run out.

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And at the same time, the problems

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have been mounting for a while.

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And so is the

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backlog of maintenance and those

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other items you referenced part

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of why it failed

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to be reauthorized?

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No, the failure to reauthorize the

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program is petty partisan

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politics.

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So not to drag you and your viewers

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through the weeds too much, but

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there used to be a law on the books

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that would allow a single

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anonymous member of a

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legislative committee to block

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almost any Knowles-Nelson project

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from moving forward.

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This is after the legislature had

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appropriated money for the program,

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after the DNR had carefully

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evaluated the grants that

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came in and chose to award funds,

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then you could have this single

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anonymous legislator step in at

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the last moment and say, nope,

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we're not moving forward.

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There was no way for the public to

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know who it was, why it

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happened, and there was no mechanism

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to get a project unstuck.

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So if that sounds crazy,

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it's because it was.

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And the Wisconsin Supreme Court

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agreed and ruled

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six to one.

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Hey, this is unconstitutional and

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can't happen.

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So that legislative veto

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went away.

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And then what we saw was a very

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small number of lawmakers,

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mostly senators on the Republican

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side, say we're

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upset because we lost this

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power to anonymously block projects.

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And therefore, instead of finding a

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new path forward through policy,

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we'll simply zero out funding for

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the program.

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Wow.

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So what happens

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to existing

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Knowles-Nelson investments,

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land, and future projects?

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So land that has been protected

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with Knowles-Nelson is

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permanently protected.

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Nothing is going to undo

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that.

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What it means, however, moving

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forward is if

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we need a new segment of

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the Ice Age Trail or the North

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Country Trail, there's no state

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money to make that happen.

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If a community is growing and

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needs a new neighborhood park,

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the Knowles Nelson Stewardship

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Program is what used to provide the

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foundational funding for

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that. And so that work stops.

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We have no other significant

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source of funding for acquiring

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parkland, conservation

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areas, recreation areas in the

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state. And then all

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of that stuff that we need to get

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out and enjoy the places that make

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Wisconsin special.

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So a trailhead to park your car at,

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a kiosk that shows you the map of

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where you're gonna go walk,

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the boat launch to put your kayak or

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your fishing boat in the water.

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As that stuff ages and

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needs to be repaired, we

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have now shot ourselves in the foot

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and taken away really our

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only significant source of funding

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to do that, to take care of

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that infrastructure.

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And so how does Wisconsin's

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investment, at least with this

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project and overall in

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conservation compare to

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other states, both with

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Knowles-Nelson and now without it?

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Yeah So for a

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long time, Wisconsin was really the

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envy of the nation because

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when Knowles Nelson was

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founded in 1989

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and remember this was a

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real bipartisan success, it was

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an effort led by legislative

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Democrats, signed into law by

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governor Tommy Thompson, a prominent

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Republican, governor Thompson

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then went on to brag over and over

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again about how his administration

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protected more land than

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any other governor's administration

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in Wisconsin history.

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And we

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had more financial

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resources to protect our land

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and water and to help people get

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outside than most other

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states.

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Starting in 2011 or

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so, that story really

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changed and we saw the

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state start to significantly

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pair back Knowles-Nelson

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funding so that really

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the program became kind of a shadow

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of itself while our

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neighbors really supercharged their

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efforts. So.

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In Minnesota, they have what they

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call their legacy amendment that

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is putting hundreds and hundreds of

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millions of dollars into natural

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resources and outdoor recreation.

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Some very red states like

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Georgia, Florida,

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Missouri, Texas are

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all investing hundreds of

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million of dollars in conservation

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and outdoor recreation.

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Because this is a growing economy,

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it's an important part of our

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economic foundation.

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And also because as the climate

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changes, it becomes more

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and more important to make those

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investments in natural spaces

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like wetlands that can protect our

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communities.

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So our neighbors, they've got their

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foot on the gas and Wisconsin,

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we just turned the engine off.

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Marissa, I think you're muted there.

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Sorry, I read that somewhere

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that today,

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even with Knowles-Nelson as

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it was,

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Wisconsin is last in

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conservation investment.

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And so without it,

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we're even worse off than

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last. Is that true?

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I think that metric that you're

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00:08:08,050 --> 00:08:10,329
referring to is Wisconsin ranks

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00:08:10,330 --> 00:08:12,269
dead last in the nation

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in our investment in our

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state parks.

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State parks is one important area

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where Knowles-Nelson provides

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funds.

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00:08:21,690 --> 00:08:24,169
Some of what got us there is that

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00:08:24,170 --> 00:08:26,089
the legislature a number of years

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00:08:26,090 --> 00:08:28,129
ago took away all

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00:08:28,130 --> 00:08:29,949
tax funding support for the

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00:08:29,950 --> 00:08:31,609
state parks and tried to make them

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00:08:31,610 --> 00:08:33,769
funded exclusively by.

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00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:35,589
User fees, those stickers we all

267
00:08:35,590 --> 00:08:37,469
put on our windshields to get into

268
00:08:37,470 --> 00:08:39,808
the state parks and that it

269
00:08:39,809 --> 00:08:40,749
just doesn't work.

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00:08:40,750 --> 00:08:43,048
That's not actually enough money to

271
00:08:43,049 --> 00:08:44,949
take care of both the

272
00:08:44,950 --> 00:08:46,769
built infrastructure and

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00:08:46,770 --> 00:08:48,669
all of the natural places that

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00:08:48,670 --> 00:08:50,049
are out there.

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00:08:50,050 --> 00:08:51,329
So I think that's one really

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00:08:51,330 --> 00:08:53,369
striking example of how,

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00:08:53,370 --> 00:08:55,469
as a state, we've really walked away

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00:08:55,470 --> 00:08:57,949
from our commitment to

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00:08:57,950 --> 00:08:59,829
caring for know, what really makes

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00:08:59,830 --> 00:09:01,779
Wisconsin special, which is all

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of these remarkable outdoor places.

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Um,

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00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:08,680
so.

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00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,319
Was this a lot of money?

285
00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,439
Was it the financial aspect

286
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,299
that kind of killed

287
00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:19,339
it and the ability to veto a

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00:09:19,340 --> 00:09:21,279
project? Or was it just the

289
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,779
ability to veto specific project

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00:09:23,780 --> 00:09:26,259
in what

291
00:09:26,260 --> 00:09:27,480
it was trying to achieve?

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00:09:29,110 --> 00:09:31,289
It's really not for a lack of

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funds.

294
00:09:32,710 --> 00:09:34,429
So, as we all know, Wisconsin is

295
00:09:34,430 --> 00:09:36,289
sitting on a very healthy surplus

296
00:09:36,290 --> 00:09:38,209
right now. We've got about two and

297
00:09:38,210 --> 00:09:40,609
a half billion extra dollars sitting

298
00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:42,069
in the bank.

299
00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:43,929
Knowles-Nelson was only

300
00:09:43,930 --> 00:09:46,069
had about $33 million a

301
00:09:46,070 --> 00:09:48,169
year appropriated to it.

302
00:09:48,170 --> 00:09:49,789
And when I said earlier that it's

303
00:09:49,790 --> 00:09:51,869
really become a shadow of itself,

304
00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:54,349
go back to 2007, 2008,

305
00:09:54,350 --> 00:09:56,309
we had three times as much

306
00:09:56,310 --> 00:09:58,369
money allocated to the program.

307
00:09:58,370 --> 00:10:00,109
In nominal dollars.

308
00:10:00,110 --> 00:10:01,549
And then if you account for

309
00:10:01,550 --> 00:10:03,369
inflation to actually have that

310
00:10:03,370 --> 00:10:05,329
kind of purchasing power today, we

311
00:10:05,330 --> 00:10:06,469
would be having to put something

312
00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:08,489
like $200 million a year

313
00:10:08,490 --> 00:10:09,949
towards Knowles-Nelson.

314
00:10:09,950 --> 00:10:11,429
We have that money.

315
00:10:11,430 --> 00:10:12,969
It's a matter of priorities.

316
00:10:12,970 --> 00:10:15,049
What we choose to say is

317
00:10:15,050 --> 00:10:16,329
important.

318
00:10:16,330 --> 00:10:17,669
You'll occasionally hear a

319
00:10:17,670 --> 00:10:19,009
legislator who's critical of the

320
00:10:19,010 --> 00:10:20,909
program say, we're just running up

321
00:10:20,910 --> 00:10:22,809
the state's credit card

322
00:10:22,810 --> 00:10:24,889
by making these Knowles Nelson

323
00:10:24,890 --> 00:10:26,389
investments. And that's fiscally

324
00:10:26,390 --> 00:10:27,679
irresponsible.

325
00:10:27,680 --> 00:10:29,319
So we ran those numbers and what we

326
00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,599
found is that right now with

327
00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,599
the money that we dedicate each

328
00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,759
year as well as debt service

329
00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:37,879
payments, Knowles Nelson costs each

330
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,099
Wisconsin resident about $11.

331
00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,099
So I took my kid to fish fry at

332
00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:44,579
Culver's the other week and I think

333
00:10:44,580 --> 00:10:46,300
it was about $15 each.

334
00:10:47,460 --> 00:10:48,820
This is a value we can afford.

335
00:10:50,530 --> 00:10:52,249
Is there still a chance that

336
00:10:52,250 --> 00:10:53,869
lawmakers will reauthorize?

337
00:10:55,460 --> 00:10:56,719
Absolutely.

338
00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:58,659
So, you know, this doesn't have

339
00:10:58,660 --> 00:11:00,099
to be Knowles Nelson is done

340
00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:01,899
forever. So what's happened is the

341
00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:03,799
money has run out, but the

342
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,019
program stays on the books, so

343
00:11:06,020 --> 00:11:07,639
all of the laws that guided are

344
00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:08,419
there.

345
00:11:08,420 --> 00:11:10,239
The DNR staff who administer the

346
00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:11,859
program are still there.

347
00:11:11,860 --> 00:11:13,659
What we need is for the legislature

348
00:11:13,660 --> 00:11:15,579
to come back and

349
00:11:15,580 --> 00:11:17,879
invest money in the program,

350
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:19,999
so that it can get moving again.

351
00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,079
And, you know, what we've seen is

352
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,479
as the the program officially lapsed

353
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,879
on June 30th and

354
00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:29,879
candidates and legislators,

355
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,979
mostly on the Democratic side,

356
00:11:31,980 --> 00:11:33,899
have been saying this is a

357
00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:35,739
top priority for us to come

358
00:11:35,740 --> 00:11:37,699
back and get the program

359
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:39,639
funded, that we're gonna fix

360
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,599
this come January, come

361
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,099
the 2027 state budget.

362
00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:45,739
And I certainly believe that that

363
00:11:45,740 --> 00:11:46,899
intention is there.

364
00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:48,659
I think the responsibility for all

365
00:11:48,660 --> 00:11:50,959
of us as Wisconsin residents and

366
00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:52,609
voters is to be.

367
00:11:52,610 --> 00:11:54,629
Asking those very direct questions

368
00:11:54,630 --> 00:11:57,089
of our candidates and legislators.

369
00:11:57,090 --> 00:11:58,989
Are you gonna fix Knowles-Nelson?

370
00:11:58,990 --> 00:11:59,909
Are you going to make sure that we

371
00:11:59,910 --> 00:12:01,889
can acquire more conservation

372
00:12:01,890 --> 00:12:03,729
land in the future?

373
00:12:03,730 --> 00:12:05,829
Because I do think that our November

374
00:12:05,830 --> 00:12:07,669
elections are going to have

375
00:12:07,670 --> 00:12:10,169
really real consequences

376
00:12:10,170 --> 00:12:12,089
for what kind of latitude

377
00:12:12,090 --> 00:12:13,989
the legislature has to

378
00:12:13,990 --> 00:12:15,609
fund Knowles Nelson again and what

379
00:12:15,610 --> 00:12:16,750
priorities they'll choose.

380
00:12:18,210 --> 00:12:19,509
Is there anything else you want to

381
00:12:19,510 --> 00:12:20,629
add?

382
00:12:20,630 --> 00:12:21,809
Something that's important for

383
00:12:21,810 --> 00:12:22,810
people to know?

384
00:12:24,940 --> 00:12:26,079
I think the last thing that I would

385
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,299
say is that, you know,

386
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:30,459
Knowles-Nelson really does touch

387
00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:31,879
us all.

388
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,719
So Knowles Nelson funds our

389
00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:35,079
forest products industry.

390
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:36,899
It holds the working forests of the

391
00:12:36,900 --> 00:12:38,739
Northwoods together.

392
00:12:38,740 --> 00:12:40,559
It supports our state parks.

393
00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:42,819
If you go visit Devil's Lake,

394
00:12:42,820 --> 00:12:44,799
we just added 200 acres to

395
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,699
Devil's lake this year through

396
00:12:46,700 --> 00:12:48,379
a Knowles Nelsen investment.

397
00:12:48,380 --> 00:12:50,219
Or if you live in an urban area and

398
00:12:50,220 --> 00:12:51,679
you're a bike commuter, say you ride

399
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:53,239
the Cap City Trail to work in

400
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,359
Madison.

401
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:55,999
That's there because of the

402
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:57,459
stewardship program.

403
00:12:57,460 --> 00:12:59,439
So it has done so much good

404
00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:00,719
for us.

405
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,179
It is probably the least

406
00:13:02,180 --> 00:13:04,019
controversial investment that the

407
00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:05,699
state makes according to the public.

408
00:13:06,940 --> 00:13:08,639
So, you know, let's just help our

409
00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,119
legislators like get it together,

410
00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:11,539
get back on their feet and get this

411
00:13:11,540 --> 00:13:12,540
thing funded again.

412
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:15,799
All right, that's all I have for

413
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,800
you.

414
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:20,279
So just to make sure

415
00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,559
we have it all correct,

416
00:13:22,560 --> 00:13:24,419
your title with Gathering

417
00:13:24,420 --> 00:13:25,420
Waters.

418
00:13:25,680 --> 00:13:27,529
Chief Strategy Officer.

419
00:13:27,530 --> 00:13:29,309
Okay, and

420
00:13:32,460 --> 00:13:34,539
You are, so we have a graphic

421
00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:36,479
that goes up with your name and we

422
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,559
put a locator on it.

423
00:13:38,560 --> 00:13:40,459
So where should we

424
00:13:40,460 --> 00:13:42,369
say you're joining us from?

425
00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:44,229
Oh, I am

426
00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:46,349
in Northern Langlade

427
00:13:46,350 --> 00:13:47,650
County right now.

428
00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:50,349
I'm on a tiny little lake called

429
00:13:50,350 --> 00:13:52,309
Duck Lake, sort of on the Langlado

430
00:13:52,310 --> 00:13:54,249
County, Langladen and

431
00:13:54,250 --> 00:13:55,629
Oneida County line.

432
00:13:55,630 --> 00:13:56,630
Okay,

433
00:13:57,730 --> 00:13:59,729
is there like a town that

434
00:13:59,730 --> 00:14:01,759
we can reference?

435
00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:03,519
Yeah, the closest town is Summit

436
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:04,899
Lake, Wisconsin.

437
00:14:04,900 --> 00:14:07,239
Okay, and then

438
00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,279
any questions that you have

439
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:10,280
for me?

440
00:14:11,079 --> 00:14:12,639
Um, I think you said this was going

441
00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:13,899
to air tomorrow. Is that right?

442
00:14:15,310 --> 00:14:17,749
That's correct, so our

443
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:19,789
program airs statewide at

444
00:14:19,790 --> 00:14:21,749
730 on

445
00:14:21,750 --> 00:14:22,750
Fridays.

446
00:14:23,390 --> 00:14:25,449
So this will be,

447
00:14:25,450 --> 00:14:27,069
the whole interview won't be used,

448
00:14:27,070 --> 00:14:28,929
we'll use some excerpts, and then

449
00:14:28,930 --> 00:14:31,009
we'll probably use additional

450
00:14:31,010 --> 00:14:32,729
pieces on our website.

451
00:14:34,150 --> 00:14:35,969
And so I can

452
00:14:35,970 --> 00:14:37,629
send you the links once they're up

453
00:14:37,630 --> 00:14:39,229
on our web site, but you can also

454
00:14:39,230 --> 00:14:41,509
catch it live tomorrow

455
00:14:41,510 --> 00:14:43,469
night, and then, we re-air on

456
00:14:43,470 --> 00:14:45,229
Sunday mornings as well.

457
00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:46,230
OK, great.

458
00:14:47,110 --> 00:14:49,929
And I guess last question, are

459
00:14:49,930 --> 00:14:51,929
you interviewing any policymakers

460
00:14:51,930 --> 00:14:54,609
about this story as well?

461
00:14:54,610 --> 00:14:55,989
Or will it be just kind of me

462
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:58,129
speaking about Knowles-Nelson or?

463
00:14:58,130 --> 00:15:00,209
It'll just be this,

464
00:15:00,210 --> 00:15:02,129
we might do something more on it in

465
00:15:02,130 --> 00:15:04,269
the future, especially we're

466
00:15:04,270 --> 00:15:06,489
doing a lot of election coverage

467
00:15:06,490 --> 00:15:08,169
that's kind of issue-based.

468
00:15:08,170 --> 00:15:09,769
So it's possible we'll touch on

469
00:15:09,770 --> 00:15:11,689
this, but this is just to kind of,

470
00:15:11,690 --> 00:15:13,929
we haven't covered Knowles-Nelson

471
00:15:13,930 --> 00:15:15,729
as this has been progressing.

472
00:15:15,730 --> 00:15:17,589
And so this is to give

473
00:15:17,590 --> 00:15:19,469
viewers an opportunity to understand

474
00:15:19,470 --> 00:15:21,429
what it is,

475
00:15:21,430 --> 00:15:24,049
what's happening and what

476
00:15:24,050 --> 00:15:26,209
is gonna be

477
00:15:26,210 --> 00:15:27,509
possible in the feature.

478
00:15:28,789 --> 00:15:30,229
Cool sounds good.

479
00:15:30,230 --> 00:15:31,589
Well, thank you very much for

480
00:15:31,590 --> 00:15:33,249
reaching out and I really appreciate

481
00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:34,629
you all covering this story I think

482
00:15:34,630 --> 00:15:36,019
it's an important one

483
00:15:36,020 --> 00:15:37,539
Yeah, thanks for making time.

484
00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:39,619
I think we interrupted a holiday,

485
00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:40,699
so really appreciate it.

486
00:15:40,700 --> 00:15:41,700
No problem.

487
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:42,739
All right, take care.

488
00:15:42,740 --> 00:15:44,629
All right. Yeah, have a great week.

489
00:15:44,630 --> 00:15:45,630
YouTube, bye.