I guess I'll just kind of start
with what is your
role as executive director
for Wisconsin? What are your goals?
What do you want to accomplish
there?
Right.
So far, Wisconsin is Wisconsin's
only statewide LGBTQ,
plus civil rights and political
advocacy organization, which
means that our mission is to build a
Wisconsin that is safe and inclusive
for all LGBTQ plus people
and where we can really all thrive.
That means that our focus is at
every level of government to try and
make sure that we get pro-equality
protections on the books.
And as executive director, it's
my purpose, obviously,
to to drive that forward.
And I'm a member of the LGBTQ
Plus community. But specifically
with this topic, I just want to make
something clear.
I identify as a queer woman, but I
am not trans and I do think
it is incredibly important that
trans voices and trans leaders are
at the forefront of this movement.
I also think it is not
fair to perpetually put
people of marginalized and oppressed
identities in the position of having
to defend their own existence and
their own lives.
So as a member of this movement, as
a leader in this movement, I am here
to also be a strong voice
in support of our trans and
non-binary community members.
Absolutely.
And so how do
organizations like Fair Wisconsin,
what's their mission and their goal
when it comes to uplifting LGBTQ
and trans voices?
Right.
So part of uplifting the voices is
making sure that the general public
understands the challenges and
frankly, the joys that are part of
our identities and our experiences
so that the general public can best
support and elect
leaders and then hold them
accountable to making sure that the
protections and the rights that
really honor the humanity of
our community are written into law.
And frankly, to also stop the bad
stuff from happening.
Right? It's a both and we do a lot
of proactive and also reactive work.
Absolutely.
And with that,
after Election Day last year, there
was a spike in 700% to
calls in LGBTQ
crisis hotlines.
And even on Inauguration Day on
Monday this week, there were over a
thousand calls, which was a
33% increase just
that afternoon, according to the
Trevor Project.
How are organizations like Fair
Wisconsin preparing to support
trans and queer voices under this
new administration?
So under this new administration, I
think there are a few things to keep
in mind. Number one, trans and
non-binary people are here.
They have always been here.
They will always be here.
And no president can change
that with a line in a speech or the
stroke of some sort of executive
order.
We also have to, as a community and
as a general public, understand that
we can't make it easier for this
administration by assuming he's
actually going to be successful at
implementing these discriminatory
policies.
There is a lot of vagueness
in some of the things he stated
and even in the executive order that
he signed on day one that was
anti-trans.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was
litigation any moment about quite
a bit of it.
And some of this is going
to take some time for us to see what
it really, really means.
But what is most important, I think,
for the general public and for the
LGBTQ community is to really
hold true to that fact
that our community is not going
anywhere. And the LGBTQ plus
community has faced hostile federal
governments before and we are
still here.
And part of the movement
and part of the fact that the LGBTQ
movement is a movement is knowing
that that movement sometimes gets
more and more difficult and more and
more challenging and can go in other
directions. And
it is really, really important that
we continue to center those trans
and non-binary voices in this
movement and to follow their lead.
And also the general public needs to
make sure that we're understanding
the experiences because
as we have seen, the numbers
are scary when it comes to mental
health and emotional well-being,
when it comes to suicidal ideation,
when it comes to suicide attempts.
It's also important to understand
the joy and the
affirmation that can be the flip
side of that.
And I think it's important that this
movement lifts all of that
up and that the general public
really comes to understand that.
What was your reaction?
I'm not sure if you watched the
inauguration, but after hearing
that during it, he said there are
only two genders, male and
female. And what are the
implications of saying something
like that behind a presidential
seal?
Yeah, I think for a second.
When I heard it in the speech,
when the president said
said the factually untrue
statements about sex
and gender and gender identity,
it made me think about how
he was attempting to
follow through on what I would
consider a campaign promise of his
that we saw in the attack ads,
in the anti-trans attack ads.
And I find it incredibly
disappointing, to say the least,
that those attack ads ever happened.
They were disgusting and they were
hateful.
And I think the most important thing
to know about them, actually, is
that they did not work.
Those attack ads that were
anti-trans did not drive
voters. There is research that shows
that.
And some of the people
who ran those attack ads won,
but they did not win based on
their ugly rejection of trans
people.
And to me, that's incredibly
important to keep in mind because it
shows what we as the general public
need to know about holding our
elected officials accountable.
Because if those attack ads did not
drive voters and those
votes did not happen because
of any kind of support of these
anti-trans policies,
we need to know that we can't let
these people who think they have an
anti-trans agenda govern as
though they have a mandate because
they don't.
Some of them won, but they didn't
win because they were anti-trans.
And I think the rest of us need to
be able to hold them accountable and
say this is a cycle that needs to
stop. And this ugliness has no place
in our politics and definitely no
place in our actual government.
And what is holding them
accountable?
What can people do right?
So now
is definitely a time to mobilize and
a time to organize.
And that is a part of our work at
for Wisconsin.
But I think the most important thing
for us to remember, at least as an
LGBTQ community, it
is also a time to care for ourselves
and each other.
And that's really going to look
different for everybody.
The mobilization, the organizing and
the care, right?
So when I think about
it, I think about how
we've all arrived to this moment
at a really different level of
comfort when it comes to
safety, when
it comes to levels of privilege.
And and frankly, even when it comes
to levels of comfort
with uncertainty, because there is
so much uncertainty right now.
So when I think of what does
mobilization or organization
or care look like,
I really think about how
we as queer people
living our lives is a necessary
and beautiful thing.
And for some of us like me,
who, you know, it's literally my job
to be a leader in the LGBTQ
movement.
For some of us, living our lives
means showing up publicly for the
fight.
And for other people, it might mean
doing what they need to do to get
through.
And that's okay.
Not everybody needs to be in the
fight. Not everybody has the
capacity to be in the fight.
And that needs to be okay.
And I know I've heard amongst sort
of my circles some
some feelings of apprehension
about safety and also some
feelings of even like a little bit
of guilt of not feeling
ready to be in the fight.
And so what I think about
the long term sustainability
of an LGBTQ plus movement,
holding these people accountable for
making sure that they do not take
anti-trans votes and make anti-trans
policy into law,
it really comes back at its core
about making sure our community is
cared for and safe.
And that's tough because these
policies are unsafe.
And frankly, I would say even
talking about them becomes
unsafe at a certain point.
Those attack ads, they didn't work,
but they created a more unsafe
environment for trans and non-binary
people, and they really impacted
our LGBTQ plus community
emotional well-being.
And frankly, like,
I don't know anyone who saw them and
didn't find them incredibly
misleading, to say the least.
And and disturbing.
I actually think the polling showed
that like a majority of voters
found them mean spirited,
I think was the word that I saw in
the survey.
And if I'm remembering correctly,
actually, a majority of Republicans
found that mean spirited, which
again, I think is really indicative
of how ugly and disgusting they were
and how they didn't work.
But again, when I think about
holding our politicians accountable
and holding our elected leaders
accountable, I kind of think of them
as two different words for a reason.
It means that this movement needs to
be sustained and sustainable,
and that means we need to care for
ourselves, too.
And so I think a lot
of people think about holding
elected leaders to account as being
a very public thing,
as being like standing outside
of Capitol with a sign or showing up
to a hearing. And I encourage you to
do that.
We do that in Fair, Wisconsin.
I hope you join us.
And taking care
of yourself as a queer person.
Is also holding these people
accountable because you are still
here.
And one of the things that
these kinds of laws and policies and
even executive orders try and do is
try and address us.
And by still being here, we are
still holding them to account.
You know.
So what was your response
when Trump
signed a new executive order
stating that there are only two
sexes, including on official
documents and including
in that cutting federal funding
to gender?
Right.
My initial reaction to the executive
order had a lot to
do with feeling like
the looming threat that we had sort
of been preparing for for a long
time was quite real.
And.
Not not
all immediately impacting
a lot of the things that were listed
in the executive executive order are
going to take time
to implement,
are going to take lots of steps
that have to do with things far
beyond a stroke of a patent like
rulemaking, which includes a public
comment period.
We are members of the public.
We should comment like trying
to change agency regulations.
And so the executive order was
was a such a sweeping attempt to
erase our trans and non-binary
community that I
think it shows a lot
of overreach.
And that's why I am absolutely
certain there will be litigation
about it, which is
another reason it's going to move
pretty slowly.
In some areas there are other areas
where it's not.
There are other areas where it is
immediately impacting people
when it comes to documentation,
when it comes to identifying
documents at the federal level,
like passports.
There are already no longer links on
websites to do any kind of changes
that people would want to make.
And then also, I worry quite a bit
about what the
executive order meant when it comes
to the federal prison population.
I am not a lawyer.
I'm not an expert.
But when I read it and when I think
about where does the
federal government have the most,
has had the most immediate levers
of change and power.
That worries me a lot because we are
talking about an incredibly
vulnerable population that not
enough people are paying attention
to. So that's something that I'm
learning more about and want to do
more work in.
I'll also say
I think it's really, really
important for people to understand
that that executive order,
again, it's going to take a long
time. There will be litigation.
I am sure.
It also doesn't impact
all documents.
It doesn't impact things that are
more state specific.
And that's where for Wisconsin
really comes in.
An example would be the
executive order made changes
to things like passports.
But Wisconsin, every state
does driver's licenses, right?
So, like not every identification
document is affected in the same
way.
And I would encourage anyone
who has any questions or thoughts
about wanting to learn more
about that, that difference, you
know, reach out to for Wisconsin,
reach out to some other amazing
community centers in Wisconsin, and
we're ready to try and direct you in
the right direction.
And then I
also just keep coming back to this
refrain in my own mind of
this is an attempt by
a man who does not understand trans
identity to
erase an entire population of
people. And we
know that our trans and non-binary
friends and neighbors have have
always been here and will always be
here. And an executive
order is not going to change that.
It's definitely going to make life
more difficult.
And I am not, you
know, making that any smaller.
That is huge.
But it doesn't change the fact that
our community is here and not going
anywhere. So it's just, to
me, a helpful refrain to come back
to because
it's how I can affirm the humanity
of the people I love in my life.
And many people
continue to prepare for these
actions beforehand before they even
happen. People rush to change
their identity marker on their
documents.
What's what are the longer term
impacts of those policies?
This is actually a place where we've
been preparing as equality
organizations across the country for
a while to.
So when when
when the election happened and the
outcome happened the way it did,
state and national equality leaders
really convened and got together and
we talked through what are some
lessons learned and the states
where there already are anti-trans
policies on the books because there
are quite a few states in this
country that already have some of
these anti-trans policies
that are being attempted at the
federal level, at the state level.
Wisconsin is not one of them and
we are. As for Wisconsin, we are
very, very proud of
to have been a part of the community
that stopped some of those things.
And we're also very thankful to have
a governor who vetoes some of those
things.
But we've been we convened as
a as national and state equality
leaders to look at those lessons
learned. What can we learn from the
states where there are anti-trans
laws on the books about how to care
for and protect how we can
our trans community?
And flipside, what can
we learn from the states where there
are already protections about
how to strengthen our own
protections in our state, how to
make those more robust at the state
level, or if needed, at the more
municipal, local,
county, city school board level.
Right.
And that's where
I think the preparation has been
really key because we've been
able to see these lessons learned.
And like I said,
the LGBTQ community has faced
hostile governments before.
And in many parts of this country
already, we're facing hostile
governments and we have a lot
to learn from the incredible
LGBTQ plus leaders in those
in those states.
I do not remember the rest of your
question. I apologize.
Please help me out.
I guess I'll read a of
a part of the executive order.
Sure.
You can let me know your reaction to
it. Sure. It says
gender identity reflects a fully
internal and subjective sense of
self disconnected from biological
reality and sex, and existing
on an infinite continuum
that does not provide a meaningful
basis for identification
and cannot be recognized as a
replacement for sex.
What is your reaction to that?
It strikes me that
the general public and I would
include actually the administration,
because they are listening to such
things as well, not to mention
saying some of them.
The general public is told a lot
about trans people and very little
of it is told by trans people.
And that
is striking to me because of the
fact that that creates
not only like an absence of
knowledge, but an absolute
misunderstanding of the reality
of the lived experience of trans
people.
And I also think part
of that is that
I acknowledge that everyone is on
a journey when it comes to
understanding gender identity.
I'm on the journey.
Everyone is.
I encourage everyone who's listening
to learn more.
I also
do not think you need to know every
detail of someone's identity
to respect them as people.
I think you can respect
that someone knows who they are
and you can respect that someone
knows what they need.
And to me, something
like this executive order and
a lot of the other anti-trans
policies and rhetoric
show a real
ignoring, willfully
ignoring of what trans people
really need. And when I talk to my
trans friends and other translators
in the LGBTQ plus movement, it
is they're very clear about what
they need. They need protections
for their health care.
They need protections against
discrimination for
housing and employment.
They need kids to be able
to feel like they belong in a
school.
But because they are not
in the conversation about defining
themselves, there is such
a disconnect there.
And so I just think it's incredibly
important that wherever we
are on our journey of understanding,
we can still respect the other
people, know who they are.
I know who I am, and I know everyone
can have that.
They have their own understanding of
themselves.
I think we can extend the grace that
other people, when they say they
know who they are, they know who
they are.
Yeah, absolutely.
Some other policy that's been
passed. The House passed a ban on
trans students from participating in
girls sports, earlier this
month, which
opens doors up to
women to physical examinations.
How are policies like this intrusive
and dangerous against.
So specifically the anti-trans
athlete bills, the one
at the federal level.
And also there are quite a few at
other other states.
They really open the door to a lot
of invasive questions,
even examinations.
And there's actually data that shows
that in states that have anti-trans
athlete bans, participation
in sports goes down across
the board for all girls.
And and I think that's
a part people don't realize that
these anti-trans
targeting bills impact everyone.
So they impact trans people they
impact girls that these
bills are purported
to be about protecting
or supporting.
They they impact people
who are intersex, which is another
part of our population that we do
not acknowledge and definitely
do not understand
the implications of something as
invasive as questions about your
period or or examinations
of your body would mean.
And it's these
it's this ripple effect of
consequences that
I do. I am not generous enough to
say that that's not an
that's an unintended.
I think there are a lot of very
intended consequences about these
bills.
So I worry
because we've seen it in other
states about decreased
participation.
I worry about these in
this invasive sort of scrutiny of
bodies.
We're talking in many cases about
young girls, about teen girls.
As someone who was once a teen girl,
that is horrifying
and makes sense to me that
participation does go down.
These are not surprising
outcomes, but they
have not stopped people from
choosing to do these anti-trans
athlete bills. And that really
worries me. It also to me
as like a fundamental
misunderstanding of why people play
sports.
I wasn't a big sports person as a
kid, but I
did play soccer and it was fun
to be on a team.
I loved being playing
as a part of a team.
It I was a horrible athlete,
but it felt cool to belong to like a
group of people who are trying to
score a goal, right?
Like, that's why people play sports
to belong on a team.
And so these politicians
who are weaponizing
the desire of a child or
even a college athlete to belong,
they're playing a really ugly game.
And I think there's a lot of people
who are caught as sort of collateral
damage in that.
And that's really, really worrisome
to me.
Do you think.
This administration's future
policies will end up going further,
even going after gay marriage?
I think everything's on the table
and it's scary, right?
I
know what was in Project 20, 25,
and there were
parts of that
roadmap that really attack
all different aspects of the LGBTQ
community, attack
parenting rights, attack
the the solidity
of me believing that my marriage
will be recognized tomorrow.
Right. And those are those are
really worrying things, obviously,
because of the anti-trans attack ads
and this this kind of executive
order right out of the gate.
Our trans community is really,
really on the front
lines of this.
And I don't want to diminish that at
all. That is so real and
definitely where we need to be
putting our focus.
And I also know that as a queer
woman in a queer relationship who is
parenting a small child,
that there are a lot of
the potential realities to changes
and policies that protect me that
I'm also very aware of.
So it's not my most immediate
fear, but
I am absolutely worried about
everything that's also
overwhelming, right?
And that's why I think it's so
important that we remember that when
we are looking at these policies,
whether they be specific to the
trans community or potentially about
the entire LGBTQ
community, it can be
overwhelming and that's exhausting.
That's a lot of emotional labor and
it's why it's important to mobilize
and organize. It's also why it's so
important to do community care,
because we're going to have
to really focus on the
marathon, not a sprint here.
And we don't know what's coming
around the corner. But yes, I
do worry about that.
Yeah.
How do you both personally
and professionally take action
that find power
when these policies are coming out
under this administration?
Yeah, I think about that when I
first I mean, when you said
personally and professionally, I was
like, wow, a lot.
Or either no, I appreciate
it. I appreciate it.
I'm trying to think if there's anything
I kind of said some things that I'm
probably going to repeat here, so
forgive me.
Can you say it again so I can
respond better?
How do you either personally or
professionally take action
or find power when
these new policies are coming?
So there are elections coming up,
and that is the one place that we
can take power as a community and as
a general public who cares about
this LGBTQ community.
2025 is an election year.
We have spring elections.
There are state level and
local level and school level
elections happening.
And with this federal
administration, LGBTQ
plus protections.
Rubber really meets the road at the
state and local and school board
level right now.
That is where we have power as
as people.
And a democracy is only as powerful
as the people who show up to
be a part of it.
So spring 2025 elections
are going to be really, really key
for fair Wisconsin,
for this organization, for
our community in general, to really
show up and elect some
pro-equality candidates, to become
elected officials who we would
then be able to work with and
create more robust protections at
the not federal level.
Right. There are certain avenues
that are close to us right now
because the federal level is
hostile.
But the local avenue, the school
board Avenue, the state Avenue,
those are open.
And we will go down that road,
Right. That's really, really
important.
There's also an upcoming legislative
session.
We had different maps this last
election.
There is a different makeup to our
assembly and our Senate.
We got more pro-equality candidates
elected.
I am hopeful that there is some
proactive work we can do.
I am also clear eyed
and understanding that we will have
to beat back bad stuff again
and we will do it.
We will do it as a community.
For Wisconsin's going to be a part
of that. We are part of a large
coalition to stand up and
stop anything bad from happening.
And again, we have a governor who
I firmly believe will continue to
veto anti LGBTQ bills.
So I think the the focus
for at least my organization right
now is really a twofold
focus on the legislative session
coming up and on the spring 2025
election, making sure that
pro-equality candidates are getting
elected.
And there's also an ongoing
professional, I think, duty
to continue educating the general
public about what matters to our
community.
So and to make sure that that so
many different voices are a part of
that education and
really meeting people where they're
at in their journey and moving them
forward. And so that's a huge part
of the work that my organization
does does as well.
I'll say on a personal level,
you know, my
work in my life are pretty
circular Venn diagram right now.
There's a lot of overlap there,
and it's why I'm trying to also
keep in mind that when I say
we have to organize, we have to
mobilize and we also have to care
for ourselves.
That's a message that when I
say it, I need to listen to it too.
And so I'm just going to say
that out loud one more time to
myself, just to
make sure that other people realize
that the leaders in this movement
are also making sure that we're
centering our own care
as a hope that that gives everyone
else permission to do the same.
And our some of those ways that
people can educate
themselves, bridge those gaps
between trans and non trans
communities.
How can people do that?
Yeah, great question.
Let me just think for a second
because what I want to say is like,
watch this show, but
I'm not going to say that.
Okay.
So there's so
much information out in the world
about trans and non-binary people
because they've we've been here
forever as a community, as an LGBTQ
plus community, and specifically as
a trans and non-binary community.
And that information is readily
available and a lot of wonderful
books and a lot of very
impactful blogs and a lot of
incredible videos.
Of course, media literacy is a
thing. So please, as people
are learning and educating
themselves, make sure that the
source is and
is a reputable one.
And I would say most importantly and
I say this as someone who is not
trans, that the most important
person to listen to right now is a
trans person.
That also means do not ask invasive
questions, but listen to what they
need you to know.
And that is something that I, as
someone who's on my own journey,
learned earlier on.
As someone who has a middle school,
Gender and Sexuality Alliance
advisor, I had many students who
were trans. I had multiple students
transition socially in my classroom,
and it was really
a a beautiful
and heartening thing to see the way
the rest of the classroom
supported them by
learning. And so
and they learned in so many
different ways. And so I'll give
that as an example of ways that
people could approach that.
I distinctly remember one of my
cisgender students whose
very close friend had just socially
transitioned, coming to me and
saying, I need
a book
because like, I don't
know what's going on and I want to
stay this person's friend, but
I'm not really comfortable asking
the questions to them, which
good for you, right?
Good for you for exploring.
Good for you. For knowing that maybe
that's not the right person to ask
the questions to when you're trying
to learn.
And so I.
I handed over
a great library book that I still go
to young adult fiction.
Yay! For young adult fiction.
And it was one way
for that student to learn.
And then the
actually the trans student picked up
the same book and then they read it
together, which was really
beautiful. Right?
It can be as simple as that
and can really open up
to people to a conversation that
I really think we need to be having.
What is your message
to people who
support these anti-trans.
People who consider themselves
to be anti-trans.
What is your message?
Who has a good wine.
Okay. I'm going to need to think for
a second.
When I think about people who hold
beliefs that are anti-trans
in my most generous
heart of hearts, I want to believe
it's a lack of information.
And so I
don't.
And I have people like this that
I've that I've spoken to.
Right. This isn't just a
hypothetical.
What I have found
most impactful,
partly to the person I was speaking
to, but also to myself, because I
think it's important to keep in mind
that that's a tough conversation
for people.
I'm not trans and it's tough
conversations, even tougher if you
are right. And so when I think
about how do I approach someone who
has anti-trans beliefs.
I try and approach it
in a way that shares information
but not data and not
science.
Those are important and they do
support the trans people and
non-binary people exist.
But I don't think those are
necessarily like the things that cut
through the hate.
Cutting through the hate.
Saying that it's hate also is not
necessarily really effective.
So when I think about what message I
would give, I would want it
to be really effective.
And so to me,
appealing to
empathy and one's own
understanding of self is
really important.
So I think about
how a lot
of trans people are very
misunderstood because it is
something that people aren't
familiar with, like the gender
journey that people are on.
And
to me,
as someone who has never been
through a transition, but as someone
who has learned a lot
about myself and come to a deeper
understanding of myself,
that's something that I can appeal
to. And someone else who is not
trans, who might not be a member
of the LGBTQ community or might
be, who has
these views of
saying, You don't need to understand
everything.
You need to understand that someone
who says they know who they are
knows who they are.
Because I would respect the same of
you.
And you don't need to necessarily
understand every detail and
nuance of someone's
health care or of someone's,
you know, intricate
physical makeup to understand
that when they say, I
need this and that this is
protections,
they're speaking the truth.
And so to me, when I think about
how do I message to
to an opposing
viewpoint, I always try and think
of how can I appeal to someone's
empathy and frankly, how can I
appeal to someone's own
understanding of themselves?
I as a queer woman, have gone
through my own self-discovery.
I've gone through my own coming out
journey as any queer person
knows, sort of am always coming out.
And I've always said to myself that
it's a huge gift because it means
that I have such
a deep understanding of who I am
because I had to wrestle with it.
Right?
That is not everyone's experience,
but I think it does rhyme with most
people's experiences.
Maybe it was something you had
to come up with to figure out your
own political beliefs, maybe their
political beliefs. I do not agree
with it all, but you had to wrestle
with them to figure them out.
That's a sense of self you have.
I would try and appeal to
look, you have gone through a
journey. So as everyone else,
just maybe on a different topic and
from a different vantage point,
I believe you when you say you have
these political beliefs, I want you
to believe someone else when they
say they know who they're.
On the other side of that, what is
your message to trans people
who are feeling
or uncertain of the future?
As an LGBTQ plus movement and
as a leader in the movement.
I want our trans and non-binary
community members to know that we
see you, we support you,
and I'm never
going to know everything about your
challenges. I'm going to listen as
much as humanly possible.
And I'm very, very,
very clear in my own belief
that I want to honor
someone else's humanity by not
making them always have to defend
their own existence.
I think it's incredibly important
for those of us who are not trans to
be showing up for our trans
and non-binary community because
it is exhausting to
always have to defend your own
humanity.
And no one should be put in that
position. And specifically, trans
kids should not be put in that
position if they want to show up
and fight. More power to
them and also more power to
the rest of us for not forcing
that on anyone.
And so when I think of my message
to the trans and non-binary
community, I want you to know
you are not alone.
You have strong support
from LGBTQ, plus people from
allied communities and a whole lot
of people who just need to know you
a little bit better. They'll love
you. And so I'm here to help make
sure that that education is
an important part of the
conversation going forward.
Yeah.
Those are all the questions I have.
Is there anything else you wanted to
add that.
We didn't touch on?
Thanks. I mean, we think we're like,
I don't know, there's really good
questions and very thorough.
So probably not.
But let me think for a second.
No, I think yeah, I
can't think of anything that I
thought through beforehand that we
didn't get to, So thank you for
that. Yeah.
Question you.
Okay.
Do.