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Family.

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Yeah.

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Well, Jessie Eben is

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some high ranking person within

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Ashley, which is hilarious because

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when on.

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So on the stuff.

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Do you have questions about

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Wisconsin government and politics?

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If so, you are definitely not alone.

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And this week, we're going to answer

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a few from our audience about

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polarization, social media,

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and money.

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This is Inside Wisconsin

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Politics.

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I'm Sean Johnson here with my

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colleagues Zach Schultz and Rich

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Kramer in Eau Claire.

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Hey guys.

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So we wanna say upfront that if you

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have questions, you should email us

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at insidewisconsinpoliticsatwpr.org.

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But the questions we're gonna talk

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about today didn't just come out of

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nowhere. It turns out Anthony

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Trugowski, a professor of political

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science at the University of

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Wisconsin, La Crosse, watches our

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show and he watches it

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with his students in his legislative

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process class.

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We talked to Professor Trugowsky

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a lot.

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He suggested his students could ask

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us questions and he helped set that

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up.

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A couple of the students submitted

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their questions by video, including

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Riley Bickelhaupt,

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who wanted to know about political

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polarization.

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Hi guys, my name is Riley.

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I'm a freshman at the University of

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Wisconsin-La Crosse.

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I'm studying political science and

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Spanish with a minor in legal

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studies.

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My question for you guys today is

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how do you think the ongoing

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political polarization in Wisconsin

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affects the state's ability to pass

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bipartisan legislation?

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Zach, I feel like there are layers

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to this answer, which is kind of

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like the reason we like the

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question. So where would you begin

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to answer Riley here?

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Uh, last semester and

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then hope that their time doesn't

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run out before summer starts.

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This is a huge question.

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It's a good question, Riley.

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Uh, the first thing that they do is

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define is what is bipartisan?

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Because technically one Democrat

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joins the Republicans, it's a

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bipartisan bill, even if all the

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rest of them oppose it.

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So we can really stretch the

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definition.

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And Sean, you remember back, you

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know, 20 years ago at under Jim Dole

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at the end of the year interviews,

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we'd talk about like controversy in

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the Capitol and say 90% of the

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bills we pass are bi-partisan

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and those Statistics are true.

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Most of those bills are really

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minor, some technical adjustments,

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some of those really aren't

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controversial at all.

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So they are overwhelmingly

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bipartisan, but the ones that get

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our attention, the ones that we

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track and we follow, are very

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contentious. And yes, political

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polarization absolutely factors

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into the image that

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your audience or their voters at

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home will view what

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happens if they let something pass.

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And that goes through leadership all

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the way down.

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I can tell you for certain that

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Robin Voss as assembly speaker knew

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exactly which districts he had

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to worry about more vulnerable

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members and he would let them vote

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against Republican bills because

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he knew that they had to show they

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were more moderate or more

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bipartisan in those areas or bills

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that were going to pass,

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they got to be co-signers on so that

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they could say, I helped pass this

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legislation. So there's a lot of

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tricks and details into what is

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bipartisan.

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But absolutely, there's only one

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bill that needs to be passed each

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legislative session, and that's the

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budget. So Sean, my question to you

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is, if only Republicans

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in the legislature vote for the

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budget, all Democrats vote against

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it, but Governor Evers signs it,

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is it now bipartisan?

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I think it is.

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Yes. I think that the Democratic

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lawmakers in that situation have

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the luxury of knowing that their

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governor is back there to make the

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call that needs to be made.

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And if they have issues with it,

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they can go to the governor and say,

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hey, maybe take this out or

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reword this with your your partial

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veto governor.

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So I think that's an example of a

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bipartisan budget.

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And I think as you've seen the

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Republican margin shrink.

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You have seen more democratic votes

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on those budgets too, because you

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have some of those lawmakers like

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you talked about.

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Under this new map, you have

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lawmakers that are more inclined to

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represent a 50-50 district.

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And what do you hear from them when

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they are campaigning?

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We wanna work across the aisle.

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That is a go-to message.

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Rich, how about you? When it comes

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to bipartisanship

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and Riley's question,

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what stands out to you?

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So I think what you both said

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is totally accurate.

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One of the things that's a couple

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things that stick out to me is when

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there are these bipartisan bills

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that get our attention because they

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are major policy

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issues, it

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seems like the compromise falls

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under a couple categories.

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It's fear or favor.

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So I think of when

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the Wisconsin Supreme Court's

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liberal majority struck down

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Republican-drawn legislative

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voting districts as

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unconstitutional.

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Shortly after, Republicans actually

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voted for maps that were drawn

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by Governor Tony Evers.

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When they were opposed to the

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court case, I mean, they were

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supposed to these maps all

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along, but yet they voted for

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the ones from the governor.

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Why would they do that?

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Well, one of the theories is that

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They feared that the Supreme Court

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justice's liberal majority might

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draw maps that are more

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favorable to Democrats than

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what they ended up passing from

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Evers.

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And then when it comes to favor,

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I think of a bill that passed and

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was signed into law this past

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session that started

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out as a Republican bill banning

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people from

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purchasing soda or candy with

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federal food assistance.

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Democrats hated the bill.

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It was amended and

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Democrats wanted to

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get a lot of new funding

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and positions for the Department of

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Health Services so that it can

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comply with federal changes to

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the food assistance program and

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avoid putting the entire program at

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risk.

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Republicans on their own weren't

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interested in that, but this bill

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morphed into a soda and

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candy ban plus $72

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million for the Department of health

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services. So that's

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one of those favor-for-favor

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kind of bills.

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I think the one thing that I would

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like to impart upon people who

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feel like you look around the

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politics today and it feels

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extremely polarized, I think

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that yes, some Democrats and

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some Republicans legitimately

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hate the other party and

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in no uncertain terms.

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I think the Wisconsin legislature

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has a lot of moments though

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of actual

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bipartisanship.

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I think about the local government

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funding bill that they passed,

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shared revenue we'd call it.

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I mean, I cannot believe that they

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did that, Republicans and Democrats,

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that raised sales taxes in

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Milwaukee.

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It's something that you never could

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have imagined the Republican Party

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doing years ago.

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But in Evers' second term, it seems

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like he's been able to cut

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those deals, and particularly since

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he got these new maps, he's being

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able to, to cut these deals.

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And as you alluded to, Zach, Robin

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Voss sometimes quotes this too,

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95 percent, I think, is the number

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he gives of the bills that they

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pass in the Wisconsin legislature

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are bi-partisan because Yeah,

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the legislature passes a lot of

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bills that are incremental

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and we don't write

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about them. We don't talk about them

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as much, but they're there.

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They do pass a lot of stuff that is

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not a knock-down, drag-out

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fight.

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And I think we saw two milestone

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shifts that have occurred over

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Governor Evers time in office where

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this really came to the head where

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Republican legislature had to work

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with a Democratic governor.

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In the first term, Republicans were

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bound determined to give the

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governor nothing.

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They sent him a budget and said, we

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dare you to sign this.

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And over and over Democrats could

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not get their bills to come to

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committee, couldn't get a hearing,

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never got to the floor.

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In fact, if Democrats wanted to

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build a pass, they would go find a

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Republican they could work with and

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they would have them become the

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sponsor. So they had to like, give

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the Republican credit in order to

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get it somewhere.

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And that was in order to make

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Governor Evers look bad, to weaken

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him for reelection.

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But then when he won in 22,

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Republicans realized, well, we still

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have another four years.

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So it doesn't make sense to keep

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spiting ourselves.

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Let's see if we can get done.

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And so there was a change there.

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And then the other thing that Rich

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pointed out is when the maps

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changed, we saw the

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electorate change underneath these

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politicians. And we saw more people

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running to the middle because they

288
00:08:53,430 --> 00:08:54,529
needed to, if they wanted to keep

289
00:08:54,530 --> 00:08:56,519
their majority and keep that seat.

290
00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:58,019
And so we saw more effort to bring

291
00:08:58,020 --> 00:08:59,239
things to the floor.

292
00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:00,139
And the question that kind of gets

293
00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:01,399
back to the heart of what Riley's

294
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,579
been looking at is there's

295
00:09:03,580 --> 00:09:06,479
a federal image of polarization.

296
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:07,979
There's the theater that comes out

297
00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:09,579
of press releases that we see from

298
00:09:09,580 --> 00:09:11,199
politicians. And then there's the

299
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:12,699
reality of what it looks like at the

300
00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:14,119
end of the day in the chamber when

301
00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:15,459
they all walk off the floor back

302
00:09:15,460 --> 00:09:16,739
into the assembly parlor where the

303
00:09:16,740 --> 00:09:17,579
cameras aren't.

304
00:09:17,580 --> 00:09:18,659
And we're allowed to get a little

305
00:09:18,660 --> 00:09:20,339
glimpse of them laughing, drinking

306
00:09:20,340 --> 00:09:21,779
coffee together, shaking hands.

307
00:09:21,780 --> 00:09:23,179
It's nowhere near the old days where

308
00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:24,479
they would go drink beer afterwards

309
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:25,799
at the bars.

310
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,699
But they still do communicate.

311
00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:29,859
A lot of the anger is theater

312
00:09:29,860 --> 00:09:31,839
for their voters or for the

313
00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:32,888
media.

314
00:09:32,889 --> 00:09:34,929
They are actually people, it turns

315
00:09:34,930 --> 00:09:36,549
out, who talk to each other

316
00:09:36,550 --> 00:09:37,909
sometimes, and especially back in

317
00:09:37,910 --> 00:09:39,129
that chamber, as you mentioned.

318
00:09:39,130 --> 00:09:40,989
Riley had kind of a, we'll call it a

319
00:09:40,990 --> 00:09:42,229
part two to that. It's a follow-up

320
00:09:42,230 --> 00:09:43,709
question. This was submitted by

321
00:09:43,710 --> 00:09:45,669
email. Riley asks, how would you

322
00:09:45,670 --> 00:09:47,409
describe the effects of social media

323
00:09:47,410 --> 00:09:49,349
and misinformation on the

324
00:09:49,350 --> 00:09:51,869
political environment in Wisconsin?

325
00:09:51,870 --> 00:09:53,429
Rich, let's go to you first in this

326
00:09:53,430 --> 00:09:54,209
one.

327
00:09:54,210 --> 00:09:56,049
How are social media

328
00:09:56,050 --> 00:09:58,169
and misinformation affecting

329
00:09:58,170 --> 00:10:00,069
everything in Wisconsin,

330
00:10:00,070 --> 00:10:01,170
but especially our politics?

331
00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,279
Well, in a big way, I mean, the

332
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,339
immediate example that comes to mind

333
00:10:07,340 --> 00:10:09,359
is President Donald Trump's,

334
00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:11,319
you know, false claims about

335
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,139
the 2020 election being

336
00:10:13,140 --> 00:10:15,579
stolen from him through massive

337
00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:18,259
fraud in states like Wisconsin.

338
00:10:18,260 --> 00:10:20,459
So he began tweeting

339
00:10:20,460 --> 00:10:22,359
about that and

340
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,999
has kept it up essentially ever

341
00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:25,979
since. So one of those

342
00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:27,939
tweets was a direct threat to

343
00:10:27,940 --> 00:10:30,099
Assembly Speaker Robin Voss where

344
00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:31,979
he said, look,

345
00:10:31,980 --> 00:10:33,639
decertify the election.

346
00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:35,599
Or else someone's

347
00:10:35,600 --> 00:10:37,559
going to run a primary against you.

348
00:10:37,560 --> 00:10:39,119
And that ended up happening.

349
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,839
Voss said that it's impossible to

350
00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:42,559
decertify the election.

351
00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:44,219
Eventually, there was a recall

352
00:10:44,220 --> 00:10:45,699
effort.

353
00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:47,659
And the challenger to Voss

354
00:10:47,660 --> 00:10:49,399
was endorsed by President Donald

355
00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,579
Trump and almost won.

356
00:10:51,580 --> 00:10:53,419
I mean, Voss's

357
00:10:53,420 --> 00:10:55,839
victory was less than 300

358
00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:56,879
votes.

359
00:10:56,880 --> 00:10:59,039
So that would have had a really big

360
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,040
impact on

361
00:11:01,250 --> 00:11:03,149
the business of the assembly and

362
00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:04,869
the legislature as a whole.

363
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:06,589
So that's one concrete example.

364
00:11:06,590 --> 00:11:08,449
But there's all sorts of

365
00:11:08,450 --> 00:11:10,429
others. You know, I also, I spend a

366
00:11:10,430 --> 00:11:12,369
lot of time on social

367
00:11:12,370 --> 00:11:14,069
media, ex-Twitter, whatever you want

368
00:11:14,070 --> 00:11:15,029
to call it. You got the question

369
00:11:15,030 --> 00:11:16,130
first for a reason, buddy.

370
00:11:18,130 --> 00:11:20,209
Yeah, so I mean,

371
00:11:20,210 --> 00:11:22,389
it's not real life

372
00:11:22,390 --> 00:11:24,229
compared to people you meet on

373
00:11:24,230 --> 00:11:25,809
the street or, you know.

374
00:11:25,810 --> 00:11:27,450
But also, it bleeds into it.

375
00:11:28,730 --> 00:11:30,629
One example is,

376
00:11:30,630 --> 00:11:32,429
you know, these young conservatives

377
00:11:32,430 --> 00:11:34,249
turning point, they're very,

378
00:11:34,250 --> 00:11:36,169
very focused on social media.

379
00:11:36,170 --> 00:11:38,289
That's how they get the message out

380
00:11:38,290 --> 00:11:39,689
about candidates.

381
00:11:39,690 --> 00:11:41,889
That's they get their gentle

382
00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:43,809
threats against lawmakers or party

383
00:11:43,810 --> 00:11:45,809
officials that aren't doing

384
00:11:45,810 --> 00:11:47,629
what they think they should do.

385
00:11:47,630 --> 00:11:49,149
So it does bleed over into real

386
00:11:49,150 --> 00:11:51,929
life, but also there's an aspect of

387
00:11:51,930 --> 00:11:54,149
it being Totally online

388
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:55,549
and in its own universe

389
00:11:57,300 --> 00:11:59,039
We had another question from Anthony

390
00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:00,099
Tragowski's class.

391
00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:02,419
This one came from Kylie Scanador,

392
00:12:02,420 --> 00:12:03,819
a junior studying political science

393
00:12:03,820 --> 00:12:05,499
and criminal justice.

394
00:12:05,500 --> 00:12:07,579
She asks, do you think more

395
00:12:07,580 --> 00:12:09,899
ideologically extreme candidates

396
00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:11,799
hurt their party in a state like

397
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:13,879
Wisconsin, or do

398
00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:15,459
these candidates help their party

399
00:12:15,460 --> 00:12:17,359
win? Zach, will we get an

400
00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:18,539
answer to this one once and for all

401
00:12:18,540 --> 00:12:19,540
this November?

402
00:12:20,189 --> 00:12:22,109
Yes and no,

403
00:12:22,110 --> 00:12:24,169
and the reason for that is once

404
00:12:24,170 --> 00:12:25,789
somebody wins, they are the

405
00:12:25,790 --> 00:12:26,929
definition of their party and

406
00:12:26,930 --> 00:12:27,930
certainly for governor.

407
00:12:28,970 --> 00:12:30,529
At one point in time, Tom Tiffany

408
00:12:30,530 --> 00:12:32,489
was one of the more right

409
00:12:32,490 --> 00:12:34,049
leaning, more, you could label him

410
00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:35,869
an extreme, he was one the early

411
00:12:35,870 --> 00:12:37,529
ones to cozy up to Donald Trump and

412
00:12:37,530 --> 00:12:38,729
the MAGA movement.

413
00:12:38,730 --> 00:12:40,829
He was on the far right

414
00:12:40,830 --> 00:12:42,569
of the Republican congressional

415
00:12:42,570 --> 00:12:44,609
delegation and certainly Republicans

416
00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:46,809
within the state. Now he is

417
00:12:46,810 --> 00:12:48,309
likely the front-runner to be the

418
00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:49,749
Republican nominee for governor, and

419
00:12:49,750 --> 00:12:51,729
if he wins, he will be the face of

420
00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:52,869
the Republican party.

421
00:12:52,870 --> 00:12:54,909
And so that shift that occurs

422
00:12:54,910 --> 00:12:56,769
means it's no longer about

423
00:12:56,770 --> 00:12:58,009
what is extremism, because the

424
00:12:58,010 --> 00:12:59,349
voters will vote for whoever they

425
00:12:59,350 --> 00:13:01,309
think favors them,

426
00:13:01,310 --> 00:13:03,109
and politicians redefine their own

427
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:04,829
image all the time.

428
00:13:04,830 --> 00:13:06,989
We saw another Democrat enter

429
00:13:06,990 --> 00:13:08,069
the field for governor Kirk

430
00:13:08,070 --> 00:13:10,289
Bankstead, who has a

431
00:13:10,290 --> 00:13:12,329
pretty tawdry history with Democrats

432
00:13:12,330 --> 00:13:14,409
themselves, starting Managua and

433
00:13:14,410 --> 00:13:15,509
lawsuits, and I think He was

434
00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:16,549
arrested and.

435
00:13:16,550 --> 00:13:17,889
He's on the outs with a lot of these

436
00:13:17,890 --> 00:13:19,169
candidates, and he decided recently

437
00:13:19,170 --> 00:13:20,569
he was going to run for governor,

438
00:13:20,570 --> 00:13:22,189
enter the field, and he did not get

439
00:13:22,190 --> 00:13:24,209
the same cordial welcome that

440
00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:25,529
the other Democrats did when they

441
00:13:25,530 --> 00:13:27,409
announced last year.

442
00:13:27,410 --> 00:13:28,669
And he would definitely be

443
00:13:28,670 --> 00:13:30,069
considered on the left and a little

444
00:13:30,070 --> 00:13:31,849
more of an extreme candidate by most

445
00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:33,589
people's views of what is a

446
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:35,189
centrist, moderate, or even a

447
00:13:35,190 --> 00:13:37,349
far-left Democrat today.

448
00:13:37,350 --> 00:13:38,609
That doesn't mean Republicans won't

449
00:13:38,610 --> 00:13:39,729
try and use it against the whole

450
00:13:39,730 --> 00:13:41,249
field the same way that Democrats

451
00:13:41,250 --> 00:13:42,389
are going to use Donald Trump and

452
00:13:42,390 --> 00:13:43,649
his connections to Tom Tiffany

453
00:13:43,650 --> 00:13:44,849
against him.

454
00:13:44,850 --> 00:13:46,409
But it will be, how will the

455
00:13:46,410 --> 00:13:47,849
candidate that emerges be able to

456
00:13:47,850 --> 00:13:49,809
redefine themselves as the face of

457
00:13:49,810 --> 00:13:50,749
the Democratic party or the

458
00:13:50,750 --> 00:13:52,039
Republican party?

459
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:53,559
And he announced for governor

460
00:13:53,560 --> 00:13:55,419
shortly after he was visited by

461
00:13:55,420 --> 00:13:57,339
federal agents,

462
00:13:57,340 --> 00:13:59,579
after promising, among other things,

463
00:13:59,580 --> 00:14:01,839
to offer free beer when

464
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:03,239
Donald Trump dies.

465
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:04,339
This was after the most recent

466
00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:05,639
assassination attempt, so.

467
00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:07,159
A perfect example of what Rich is

468
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,779
talking about in social media being

469
00:14:09,780 --> 00:14:11,779
a little bit of a toxic place and

470
00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:12,939
going right back to Riley's first

471
00:14:12,940 --> 00:14:13,799
question about political

472
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,659
polarization, it occurs in social

473
00:14:15,660 --> 00:14:17,599
and it does bleed over into

474
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:18,600
the real world.

475
00:14:19,290 --> 00:14:20,809
To me, I think this question really

476
00:14:20,810 --> 00:14:22,769
kind of boils down to the

477
00:14:22,770 --> 00:14:24,649
word extreme, which is always in

478
00:14:24,650 --> 00:14:25,650
the eye of the beholder.

479
00:14:27,030 --> 00:14:28,229
Like you mentioned, once somebody

480
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:30,489
wins, they become normal,

481
00:14:30,490 --> 00:14:32,329
you just become accustomed to that.

482
00:14:32,330 --> 00:14:34,849
But I think in 2016,

483
00:14:34,850 --> 00:14:36,369
a lot of Democrats, a lotta

484
00:14:36,370 --> 00:14:38,089
Republicans certainly considered

485
00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:39,909
Donald Trump to be on the

486
00:14:39,910 --> 00:14:41,689
extreme end of things.

487
00:14:41,690 --> 00:14:43,709
It worked for him, it continues to

488
00:14:43,710 --> 00:14:45,709
work for him. And when he's

489
00:14:45,710 --> 00:14:47,129
not on the ballot now, Republicans

490
00:14:47,130 --> 00:14:48,130
suffer because

491
00:14:49,010 --> 00:14:50,949
That's what his voters are looking

492
00:14:50,950 --> 00:14:52,309
for.

493
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:54,149
So there's an example where even

494
00:14:54,150 --> 00:14:56,169
in a 50-50 state like Wisconsin,

495
00:14:56,170 --> 00:14:59,589
where you imagine somebody kind of

496
00:14:59,590 --> 00:15:01,370
wanting to aim for that middle,

497
00:15:02,390 --> 00:15:05,369
the more extreme candidate sometimes

498
00:15:05,370 --> 00:15:08,149
is the one who carries the day.

499
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:09,309
Rich, real quick on this one.

500
00:15:11,370 --> 00:15:12,969
Yeah, I wanted to point to, you

501
00:15:12,970 --> 00:15:14,169
know, we've got Republican

502
00:15:14,170 --> 00:15:15,649
Congressman Derek Van Orden.

503
00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:17,449
He's said a lot of inflammatory

504
00:15:17,450 --> 00:15:19,549
things. He's on social media a

505
00:15:19,550 --> 00:15:21,289
lot, thousands and thousands of

506
00:15:21,290 --> 00:15:22,370
tweets probably.

507
00:15:23,790 --> 00:15:25,609
And Democrats call him extreme,

508
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:27,609
but he's won reelection.

509
00:15:27,610 --> 00:15:29,629
And some conservatives in the

510
00:15:29,630 --> 00:15:31,869
third congressional district like

511
00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:33,289
that. They like that about him.

512
00:15:33,290 --> 00:15:34,489
They like about Trump.

513
00:15:34,490 --> 00:15:36,409
They feel that that means they're

514
00:15:36,410 --> 00:15:37,889
authentic and that they're not

515
00:15:37,890 --> 00:15:39,749
listening to the consultant class

516
00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:40,869
in crafting their messaging.

517
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:43,319
All right, I think we need to move

518
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:44,799
on. We're gonna shift gears a bit

519
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,279
with our last question this week,

520
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:47,599
which comes to us on video.

521
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,139
It's about political spending.

522
00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:52,619
I'm Alex Thiessen.

523
00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:54,079
I'm studying political science and

524
00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,279
public administration at UW-La

525
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,239
Crosse.

526
00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,179
My question today is,

527
00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:00,599
with concerns about campaign

528
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,579
spending in recent Wisconsin State

529
00:16:02,580 --> 00:16:04,419
Supreme Court elections, how

530
00:16:04,420 --> 00:16:06,539
would stricter recuse rules change

531
00:16:06,540 --> 00:16:08,199
judicial elections?

532
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,039
Would new rules reduce direct

533
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,379
campaign contributions to

534
00:16:11,380 --> 00:16:12,319
candidates?

535
00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,339
Or would they shift spending

536
00:16:14,340 --> 00:16:16,099
towards outside groups such as PACs

537
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:17,440
or political action committees?

538
00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:20,849
So recusal, the idea

539
00:16:20,850 --> 00:16:22,669
that when you've got a stake in

540
00:16:22,670 --> 00:16:24,409
the case and you're a judge, you

541
00:16:24,410 --> 00:16:26,529
step out of that case.

542
00:16:26,530 --> 00:16:27,889
Rich, this is not something that's

543
00:16:27,890 --> 00:16:29,469
just a theoretical question.

544
00:16:29,470 --> 00:16:30,569
Supreme Court justices might

545
00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:32,250
consider it soon, right?

546
00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:35,979
That's right, there's a rule

547
00:16:35,980 --> 00:16:37,859
petition proposal before the Supreme

548
00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:39,699
Court brought by a group of

549
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:41,319
retired judges.

550
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,099
And essentially, it would mandate

551
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:45,399
that justices recuse themselves

552
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:47,679
if there are reasonable

553
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,639
concerns about donations

554
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,519
they got during their campaigns

555
00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,539
affecting cases,

556
00:16:54,540 --> 00:16:55,979
essentially if those donations come

557
00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:57,839
from parties to the

558
00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,619
case, lawyers, what have you.

559
00:16:59,620 --> 00:17:01,579
But the The twist is

560
00:17:01,580 --> 00:17:03,759
that it's still up to the individual

561
00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:05,879
judge or justice themselves to

562
00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:07,879
decide whether or not to recuse.

563
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:09,679
And this rule proposal doesn't

564
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,339
include any set dollar limits.

565
00:17:12,420 --> 00:17:14,659
That was attempted in a 2017

566
00:17:14,660 --> 00:17:17,039
rule proposal that was rejected by

567
00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,118
the Supreme Court's former

568
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:19,539
conservative majority.

569
00:17:19,540 --> 00:17:20,899
But now we've got a liberal majority

570
00:17:20,900 --> 00:17:22,399
and they've been more open to the

571
00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,118
idea of some sort of change.

572
00:17:25,629 --> 00:17:27,649
In a lot of ways this current rule

573
00:17:27,650 --> 00:17:29,629
would be very similar to what exists

574
00:17:29,630 --> 00:17:31,439
right now on the books

575
00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:32,659
Zach, for somebody out there that's

576
00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:33,799
just kind of wondering, like, why

577
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,299
don't justices just adopt a

578
00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:38,039
strong recusal rule, put a set

579
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:39,899
dollar amount on it, and say,

580
00:17:39,900 --> 00:17:41,369
I'm out if we get above that.

581
00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:43,049
There are so many reasons why that

582
00:17:43,050 --> 00:17:44,509
does not work. The first is simply

583
00:17:44,510 --> 00:17:46,429
inflation I mean a reasonable

584
00:17:46,430 --> 00:17:47,669
number that we all could have agreed

585
00:17:47,670 --> 00:17:49,669
on 10 years ago would be pennies

586
00:17:49,670 --> 00:17:51,169
today when you're talking about 50

587
00:17:51,170 --> 00:17:52,929
and 100 million dollar races Which

588
00:17:52,930 --> 00:17:54,969
is not this one But the last two and

589
00:17:54,970 --> 00:17:56,249
the other one is we now have a

590
00:17:56,250 --> 00:17:57,809
loophole in place for fundraising

591
00:17:57,810 --> 00:17:59,289
for these judicial Candidates that

592
00:17:59,290 --> 00:18:01,209
did not exist 20 years ago It

593
00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:02,549
was actually passed by Scott Walker

594
00:18:02,550 --> 00:18:04,289
and the Republicans But it allows

595
00:18:04,290 --> 00:18:05,809
anyone to give as much money as they

596
00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:07,709
want to the political party who

597
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:09,589
can then donate that money as

598
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:11,519
much they want to the candidate.

599
00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,279
And the reason why giving money to

600
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,459
the candidate is better than an

601
00:18:14,460 --> 00:18:15,779
outside pack, which is part of the

602
00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:17,719
question, is the candidate gets a

603
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:19,619
better ad rate, so they can buy

604
00:18:19,620 --> 00:18:21,559
more TV ads, more online

605
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,679
ads for their dollar.

606
00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:25,099
So it's much more effective for them

607
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:26,639
to keep doing it that way.

608
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:28,159
And finding what is the actual

609
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:29,499
number, especially if it gets

610
00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:31,059
funneled through a party, is a

611
00:18:31,060 --> 00:18:32,859
really difficult question to ask.

612
00:18:32,860 --> 00:18:34,679
And it brings up the idea of what a

613
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:36,379
group trying donate to their

614
00:18:36,380 --> 00:18:38,279
opposite opposing person in the

615
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:39,699
hopes of spiking them off a future

616
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:40,019
case.

617
00:18:40,020 --> 00:18:41,459
That's what the justices say who are

618
00:18:41,460 --> 00:18:42,919
skeptical this like we can't do

619
00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:43,799
that. They'll play games.

620
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,719
Yeah, so it really is a thorny

621
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:46,979
question, there's not a simple

622
00:18:46,980 --> 00:18:49,119
answer, and unfortunately, well,

623
00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:50,419
it comes down to the integrity of

624
00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:51,939
the justice, and that's where

625
00:18:51,940 --> 00:18:53,509
historically it always rested.

626
00:18:53,510 --> 00:18:55,069
Do we see a lot of recusals on this

627
00:18:55,070 --> 00:18:55,689
though?

628
00:18:55,690 --> 00:18:57,529
Once in a great while, but not on

629
00:18:57,530 --> 00:18:58,530
funding.

630
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:00,699
That's all the time we have for

631
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:02,459
today, but we would love to hear

632
00:19:02,460 --> 00:19:04,339
from you if you have questions for a

633
00:19:04,340 --> 00:19:05,159
future show.

634
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:06,399
Just email us at

635
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:10,399
insidewisconsinpoliticsatwpr.org.

636
00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,239
Give us your first and last name and

637
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:13,119
let us know what you wanna know

638
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,639
about Wisconsin politics and

639
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:16,640
government.

640
00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:17,899
Thanks for joining us.

641
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:19,579
This has been Inside Wisconsin

642
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:21,539
Politics. Our colleague Anya Van

643
00:19:21,540 --> 00:19:22,979
Wagtendonck will be back in a couple

644
00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:23,799
weeks.

645
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:24,959
Be sure to follow us on

646
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,599
pbswisconsin.org, wpr.or,

647
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:28,559
YouTube.

648
00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:29,760
Or wherever you get your podcasts.