, WE
NEED
TO
LEAVE
IT
%THERE.
%THANKS VERY MUCH.
%>> YOU'RE
WELCOME.%>>
OUR
NEX
T
GUEST
IS
NATIONALLY
%RECOGNIZED
IN
THE
AREA
O
F
POLICE
%REFORM.
%NOBLE WRAI
I
S
THE
FORMER
CHIEF
%OF
POLICE
IN
MADISON.
%THANK
YOU SO
MUCH
FOR
JOINING
%US.
%>> THANK
YOU.%>>
SO
AS AN
ECTS
AN
EXPERT
I
N
POLICE
%PRACTICES AND REFORM, WHEN YOU
%SAW
THE
IMAGES
OF WHAT
HAPPENED
%TO GEORGE
FLOYD,
WHAT
WENT
%THROUGH YOUR
HEAD?
%>>
FIRST
OF
ALL,
JUST
LIKE
MANY
%AMERICANS, IT
WAS
JUST
HORRIFIC%TO SEE
THAT
JUST
EMOTIONAL
-
%IT'S
JUST A
LOT
O
F
EMOTIONS
%GOING
THROUGH
MY
HEAD.
%I
FEE
L
IT
FROM A
COMMUNITY
%MEMBER, AN
AFRICAN-AMERICAN
MALE
%OR
SOMEONE
THAT'S
BEEN
IN
%
POLICING FOR
NOW
OVER
30
YEARS,
%REALLY.
%AND, YOU
KNOW,
I
FELT
FOR
THE
%FAMILY.%IT WAS
JUST A
TERRIBLE,
JUST A
%TERRIBLE SET
O
F
CIRCUMSTANCES.%>>
S
O
PUTTING
EVEN A
FINER
POINT
%ON
THAT,
HOW
WELL DO YOU
%UNDERSTAND THE
ANGER
OF
%PROTESTERS
MARCHING
I
N
%SOLIDARITY OVER
RACISM
AND
WHITE
%SUPREMACY AS
THEY
MOURN
THE
%DEATH
OF A
BLACK
MAN?
%>> I
UNDERSTAND
IT
FROM
%DIFFERENT ANGLES.
%I CAME
U
P
IN
MILWAUKEE.
%MY
PARENTS
WERE
INVOLVED
W
ITH
%FATHER
GROPPI
AND
THE CIVIL
%RIGHTS
MOVEMENT.
%THAT
RINGS
VERY
STRONG FOR
ME.
%AS A POLICE OFFICER WHO
HAS
%ADVOCATED FOR
POLICE
BUT
ALSO
%POLICE
REFORM,
IT
HIT
ME
HARD
%BECAUSE
ALL
OF
THOSE
GAINS
W
E
%THOUGHT THAT WE WERE
MAKING OVER%THE
YEARS,
YOU
KNOW,
AND
%RECOGNIZING THAT
TRUST CAN BE
%LOST
I
N
JUST
ONE
INSTANT,
JUST
%ONE
I
NSTANT,
SO THAT
WAS
VERY
%DIFFICULT.
%BUT
UNDERSTANDING THAT
TALKING
%TO
COMMUNITY MEMBERS
BOTH HERE
%IN MADISON
AND ACROSS THE
%NATION, THIS
IS A REAL
ISSUE
.
%IT'S
BEEN A
REAL
ISSUE.
%AND
ONE OF
THE
THINGS
THAT
I
%THINK
W
E
MISTAKE,
WE
D
O
BY
%MISTAKE
I
N
OUR
PROFESSION,
IS
%THAT
IF THERE
IS
AN
ABSENCE
OF
%TENSION
OR
IF
PEOPLE
ARE
NOT
%COMPLAINING TO LAW
ENFORCEMENT,%IT
SENDS A
SIGNAL THAT
THINGS
%ARE
OKAY.
%BUT
IN
REALITY, THIS
IS A
%PERFECT EXAMPLE THAT THINGS
ARE
%NOT OKAY.
%THE
TENSION
WAS
AWFUL.
%THE
FRUSTRATION,
THE
DECADES
OF
%FRUSTRATION WAS OUT
THERE.
%AND
THEN THIS
WAS
THE
MATCH
THAT
%REALLY HIT
A
T
THE CORE OF SO
%MANY
PEOPLE.
%ONE OF THE
O
THER
THINGS
I'D
LIKE%TO
SAY,
FREDERICA, THIS IS
%DIFFERENT.
%I'VE
BEEN
AT A
LOT
O
F
PROTESTS.
%MADISON
I
S
THE
STATE
CAPITAL.
%THIS IS
NOT A
PROTEST.
%THIS
IS A
MOVEMENT.
%AND A
MOVEMENT HAPPENS
WHEN
THE
%PEOPLE THAT ARE
DIRECTLY
%IMPACTED BY A
PARTICULAR
ISSUE,
%THEY'RE NOT
THE
ONLY
ONES
%IMPACTED.
%THIS
HAS
GONE
BEYOND
%AFRICAN-AMERICANS.%THIS
I
S
WORLDWIDE.
%THE
OTHER
THING
IN A
MOVEMENT IS
%WHEN YOU
SEE A
SHIFT
I
N
STATUS
%QUO, WHAT
I'M
HEARING I
S
PEOPLE
%ARE
ASKING
FOR
SOMETHING
%DIFFERENT.
%THEY'RE
SAYING
WE
WANT A
%RESPONSE
TO
POLICE
MISCONDUCT
T
O
%HAPPEN
IN A
MORE
RAPID
FASHION.
%WE
WANT POLICE
OFFICERS THAT
ARE
%ENGAGED
I
N
SIMILAR
CONDUCT TO
BE
%TREATED
JUST
LIKE
A
N
AVERAGE
%CITIZEN WOULD BE
TREATED.
%AND
IT SHOULD
BE.
%IF
WE'RE
THE
GUARDIANS
OF
%DEMOCRACY, WE SHOULD BE HELD
TO
%A HIGHER
STANDARD.%>> DO YOU
THINK
THOSE
CALLS WILL
%BE
DIFFERENT THIS
TIME?
%WILL THIS
BE
THE
SITUATION THAT
%CAUSES
CHANGE?
%>>
I
HOPE
SO.
%
I
HOPE
THA
T
THE
CHANGE THAT
%TAKES
PLACE,
THE
REFORM
THAT
%TAKES
PLACE,
GOES
BEYOND
THE
%MOMENT.
%AND AS
I
ALLUDED TO
EARLIER,
WE
%GET
LULLED
INTO
THINKING
JUST
%BECAUSE PEOPLE
ARE
NOT
OUT
THERE
%PROTESTING THAT
THERE'S NOT AN
%ISSUE.
%BECAUSE THERE ARE CLEAR ISSUES
%OF
REFORM THA
T
NEED
TO
TAKE
%PLACE
IN
THIS
PROFESSION.%>>
LIKE?
%>>
LIKE
I
THINK,
YOU
KNOW,
AREAS
%--
AREAS
FOR
-
I'LL
GIVE
YOU AN
%EXAMPLE.
%I
THINK LAW ENFORCEMENT
NEEDS
TO
%PROVIDE
DISCIPLINARY
RECORDS
TO
%THE PUBLIC.
%IT
NEEDS TO
BE
TRANSPARENT.
%NEEDS TO BE
DONE
IN A
WAY
WHERE
%HUMAN RESOURCE
ISSUES
ARE
%PROTECTED
WITHIN A DEPARTMENT.
%BUT
I THINK O
VER
TIME
PEOPLE
%NEED
TO
KNOW
WHAT'S
HAPPENING
ON%A
DISCIPLINARY
STANDPOINT.
%I
THINK
GRAND
VERSUS
CONNOR,
THE
%LANDMARK SUPREME COURT
DECISION
%
THAT
TOOK PLACE
IN
THE
'80s
%REGARDING USE OF
FORCE,
I
THINK
%THOSE
THINGS NEED TO
BE
LOOKED
%AT.
%I'LL
GIVE
YOU
JUST
DRILLING
DOWN
%INTO
THAT A
BIT
MORE.
%THERE'S A PROPOSAL A
T
THE
STATE
%LEVEL
AND
THAT
PROPOSAL
IS
TO
%LOOK
AT
HOW
DO
WE
FOCUS
I
N ON
%THE MINIMAL
AMOUNT
O
F
FORCE
%NECESSARY IN A
USE
OF
FORCE
%SITUATION.
%CALIFORNIA HAS
PASSED
%LEGISLATION THAT
I
S
SIMILAR
TO
%THAT.
%WHAT
GRAND
VERSUS
CONNER
DID,
%WHICH THERE ARE
ASPECTS
OF
IT
I
%REALLY
LIKE,
BUT
IT
MOVED
U
S
%AWAY
FROM
FOCUSING
IN ON
THE
%MINIMUM AMOUNT
O
F
FORCE, WHICH
I
%THINK HAS MORE
OF A
MORAL
%OBJECTIVE
I
N
THE
OPERATIONS
OF
%POLICE WHEN
THEY'RE
DEALING
WITH
%THE USE O
F
FORCE.
%THAT
IS
ALWAY
S --
WHEN
I
CAME
%ON, THAT WAS ALWAYS IN
THE BACK
%OF
M
Y
MIND.
%USE THE
MINIMUM
AMOUNT
OF
FORCE
%NECESSARY WHEN
YOU'RE
ENGAGED
IN
%THAT SITUATION.
%I THINK
W
E
LOST
THAT
UNDER
THE
%OBJECTIVELY REASONABLE STANDARD
%THAT
CAME OUT OF
THE
GRAND
%VERSUS
CONNER
DECISION.
%>>
AND
SO
D
O
YOU
SUPPORT THE
%PROPOSAL
THAT
EXISTS
A
T
THE
%STATE, A
BILL
B
Y
DEMOCRATS
THAT
%DEALS WITH USE
O
F
FORCE?
%DO YOU
SUPPORT
THAT
PROVISION?
%>> I
HAVE
NOT
SEEN
THE
BILL,
SO
%I'M
ALWAYS
RELUCTANT
TO
SAY
THAT
%I
SUPPORT
I
T
IN
ITS
ENTIRETY
%UNTIL I SEE
IT.
%I HAVE
JUST
HEARD
ABOUT
IT.
%AND
FROM
WHAT
I'VE
HEARD,
I
%THINK
IT'S GOING
IN
THE
RIGHT
%DIRECTION.
%IT'S LIKE TO
SEE
THE
%LEGISLATION.
%BUT I
KNOW
THAT I
WAS
TRACKING
%CALIFORNIA'S
LEGISLATION ON
IT,
%AND I
THINK
THEY'RE
GOING
I
N
THE
%RIGHT DIRECTION WITH
IT.
%>>
THE
LEGISLATION
SEEMS
FAIRLY
%BRIEF.
%IT
BASICALLY SAYS
THAT
THE
%PRIMARY
DUTY
O
F
OFFICERS
IS
T
O
%PRESERVE
THE
LIFE
OF
ALL
PEOPLE
%AND
USE
DEADLY
FORCE
AS A
LAST
%RESORT.
%THERE ARE
SOME
OTHER
PROVISIONS,%BUT THOSE
ARE
THE
TWO
MAIN
%PRONGS.%>>
I
THINK
THAT'S GOING
I
N
THE
%RIGHT
DIRECTION.
%AGAIN, I
FOLLOWED
THE
CALIFORNIA
%LEGISLATION AND
THEY
HAD
T
O
WORK
%THAT
THROUGH,
THE
LANGUAGE, SO
%THAT IT
MET
THE
NEEDS.
%BUT WHAT I
T
COMES DOWN
TO,
ONE
%OF THE
THINGS
THAT WE
HAVE
LOST
%AS
IT
RELATES
TO
USE
O
F
FORCE
I
N
%POLICING,
IS
LANGUAGE,
%STATUTORILY
LANGUAGE, SUPREME
%COURT
LANGUAGE,
THAT
REINFORCES
%THE
MORALITY, THE
ETHICS,
THE
%HUMANITY OF
POLICING.
%AND
I
THINK
THAT
LEGISLATION
%THAT'S
BEING
PROPOSED
IS
TRYING%TO GET AT THAT.
%>>
VERY
BRIEFLY, WHAT
LEARNED
%WISDOM
WOULD
YOU
IMPART
ON
%CURRENT POLICE
OFFICERS
?
%>>
I
THINK
POLICING
HAS
REALLY
%EVOLVED.
%I THINK
WE'VE
MADE
GREAT
%STRIDES.
%BUT THE
LEARNED
WISDOM
IS
THAT
%IT'S CONSTANT.
%WE
LOSE
SOMETIMES
BECAUSE
WE
GET
%CAUGHT UP IN
THE
DAY-TO-DAY
PUSH
%OF THINGS.
%
I
MEAN,
WE'RE
OUT THERE
FIGHTING
%FIRES.%IT
IS A
DIFFICULT
JOB.
%
BUT
THE
THINGS THAT
ARE
%IMPORTANT ABOUT
OUR
PROFESSION,%BUILDING
TRUST,
CONNECTING
WITH
%PEOPLE,
PROCEDURAL
JUSTICE,
YOU
%KNOW, THE
COMPETENCY
AND
THE
%CHARACTER THAT
IT
TAKES
T
O
DO
%THIS
JOB,
THE
GUARDIANSHIP WHICH
%WE'RE
ENTRUSTED
WITH,
THA
T
TAKES
%WORK
AND
IT'S
EVERY
DAY
AND
IT'S%HARD TO DO.
%AND
SO THAT I
S
SOMETHING
THAT
WE
%STILL HAVE
TO
EMPHASIZE
GHVMENT
%WE
LEAVE
I
T
THERE.