- Wendi Dwyer: Thank you for having me.
 - I appreciate you opening up your beautiful home to us and your beautiful guide dog Lily.
 - Well, thank you for coming.
 It's nice having you here.
 - Yeah, yeah, I want you to, you know, feel comfortable in your own home, Wendi.
 Relax, it's not like you and I don't know each other.
 We go back a pretty good ways now.
 - Oh, my gosh, how many years?
 - Murv: Well.
 - Third grade in Jeff Yu's backyard.
 - I remember Jeff Yu's backyard.
 Rest in peace, Jeff Yu, Dr.
 Jeff Yu.
 Orchard, was it Orchard Ridge?
 - No, Nakoma on Yuma Drive.
 - I-- so long ago.
 [both laugh] But we go back to back, to then, and then, you know, obviously, then we went to high school together briefly.
 - Yeah.
 - And I ended up going to-- had to go to East 'cause my mom ended up moving across town, which I'm still not happy about.
 - We still think you're a Westie.
 - Murv: I'm-- I'm a-- - Yeah, we kept you.
 
 
 - I'm definitely a Regent.
 [Wendi laughs] But yeah, here we sit, and.
 And I'm so excited to have this conversation with you.
 You're a disability rights activist, advocate, and I talked about some of the things that we share in common, and we share the fact that we both have disabilities in common.
 And I think when people look at us, they don't really know it right away.
 Like, I know you and you and I have gone to dinner before, and.
 and I forget that you're, you know, you're-- you're visually impaired.
 - Mm-hmm.
 - And so, when we talk about disability, what exactly does that even represent when we kind of define that?
 - Well, I would say, you know, I'm really comfortable with my disability.
 And I, I'm blind, you know, I would even say more than visually impaired, and blindness is any sight that can't be corrected through glasses or surgeries.
 And my blindness impacts every part of every day.
 So, I want to make people aware that we are all out there doing things.
 Only 10% of us are out as blind.
 So, most people that are blind don't use a sight cane or a guide dog.
 So, there's a lot of blind people around you all the time.
 But I'm one of the very out blind people.
 [laughs] - And then you get-- but you-- but you also get people that are like, "Oh, you don't look-- you don't look blind.
" - [laughs] Oh, every day, every day.
 - You know?
 You don't have glasses on.
 
 
 - Oh, yeah.
 Oh, I like when people suggest I wear glasses.
 I'm like, "Glasses?
 [laughs] When did this happen?
" That just is the most ridiculous.
 - I mean, I feel bad to say this, but I, I had a really good friend.
 Rest in peace as well, Darryl Lenox.
 Comedian, really good comedian, and he was losing his eyesight and I used to, you know, tease him about it.
 I'd say, "Man, you got to put something on "that one that doesn't work so we know not to look at that one.
" [Wendi chuckles] And, you know, the things we say when we don't know any better.
 - Yeah, you know, but when it's people that you know, it makes it more comfortable for-- I mean, I tease.
 - Well, and he was a-- he's a comic.
 I did comedy as well.
 - Yeah.
 - So, I think the laughter is a big way of how we cope with the things that are challenging us.
 And I know certainly for me, being new in the-- in the community, I'm still, you know, even cautious about having this conversation with you and revealing things about, you know, what I'm dealing with when it comes to having multiple disabilities.
 - Wendi: Yeah.
 - But I think that humor is a big part of, I think, how some of us do cope with it.
 - Mm-hmm, and I think it's best if it's our-- other people not imparting their-- trying to make themselves feel more comfortable with your disability.
 You know, it's different if you're feeling comfortable with your own disability, but it's really not-- doesn't add much when somebody else is just using their humor so that they can be more comfortable with your disability.
 - No, I've noticed that because I think what happens is, is like, it's like if you're the person that's living it, it's certainly okay for you to make fun of it.
 
 
 - Mm-hmm.
 - In terms of how you're gonna cope with that.
 And I remember, I was working.
 I was working at ABC station in Milwaukee, and we had a young lady who was a reporter at one of the opposition stations, and she had a prosthetic left arm.
 And one of the reporters tells me the story about someone, you know, at the job didn't know that she-- they didn't know that she had a prosthetic.
 They just never had paid attention to it.
 And they saw her typing back in the days when we had typewriters.
 And that's a thing.
 Typewriters, guys, that's-- look it up.
 Google it.
 [Wendi laughs] But she was typing with one hand.
 And, you know, and the person yells out, "Hey, so-and-so, we type with two hands around here.
" - [laughs] So, did she give her-- give them the finger with her prosthetic hand?
 [both laugh] I would, if I had a prosthetic arm, I would just have it giving the finger all the time.
 - Right?
 - And if anybody did anything, I'd just lift it up like, just, here you go, lift it up.
 - You know, I could do something really funny about the whole finger thing, but I'm not gonna do it because I don't wanna go there right now.
 - That's what I would do, 100%.
 - But no, but it's just-- I think it's just-- I think it's amazing.
 Sometimes I think, you know, that people aren't thinking.
 - Wendi: Mm-hmm.
 
 
 - Murv: .
about anyone other than themselves.
 - Or that they think it's so unusual to have a disability.
 I mean, that's where this all comes down to, that we're still so far behind that we don't understand the human condition is to be fallible.
 Like we get diseases, we have accidents.
 We-- things change, you know?
 That's why we're humans.
 - Murv: Yeah.
 - Wendi: And we're still so surprised by it.
 We've been humans for-- since the beginning of time.
 And this is still like, like, you know, I'm some people's blind friend, and I'm like, "I'm not your only blind friend, I'm just--" [laughs] - Well, you know, and it's, yeah.
 - Wendi: And, you know.
 So, it's-- it isn't unusual.
 It's not at all unusual for humans to be experiencing disabilities.
 It's the human condition, you know?
 That's what makes us human.
 But then, we have people who think they're infallible making decisions.
 And that's not healthy for anybody.
 We should expect humans to show up, and humans show up in all different ways, so.
 - Yeah, and it's interesting for me as I navigate, you know, my new life, getting around, you know, you start to realizing how, how inaccessible some-- some, like, basic things are.
 [Wendi laughs] - Yeah, yeah, we're the worst.
 
 
 We're the worst of the disabled, okay.
 I'll just tell you, you and I, we are the worst because people who are born blind or they're born, you know, with a mobility disability or whatever.
 They have known this forever.
 Like, this all sucks and it should be better than it is.
 Then we show up, you know, 'cause I was, you know.
 When we were young, I was sighted, fully sighted.
 I used to drive, you know, I've had to give up driving 15 years ago.
 I've become more and more blind, you know, progressively.
 And yeah, I'm like, "Why doesn't this exist," you know?
 But why didn't I care that it didn't exist before I was blind?
 - Murv: Right.
 - Wendi: Why did it have to impact me for me to care?
 Right?
 - Murv: Right.
 - So, that is how backwards we all are.
 Like, I should have cared that these things were so out of, you know, creating limitations for any human, you know?
 So, yeah, we're the worst.
 And, but, you know, we're squawking and the other people are like, "Yeah, where were you when, "you know, I was in school in a wheelchair and couldn't get to the second floor," or whatever.
 And now, we're surprised we can't get to whatever, you know?
 So, but anyway, that's why I'm a disability rights advocate and activist.
 And, I said, you know, I find it all really irritating.
 
 
 - Yeah, I was gonna say, well.
 - [laughs] Extremely irritating, yeah.
 - I think, but the irritation is what creates action, right?
 - Yeah.
 - You know, and I was gonna ask you, how did you fall into this role as an advocate and what does being an advocate mean to you?
 - Well, I fell into this role 'cause it's kind of my personality.
 You know, I, if something's wrong, I wanna know why it's wrong and how it got to be that way and why it stays that way.
 So, I have been that way always.
 You know, I've just-- try to, you know, I want things to be better than they are generally all the time.
 - Murv: Right.
 - And when I had to give up driving, I was so surprised, like, how much the world is built for drivers.
 Like, it just floored me that if you can't drive, you can't do a lot of things and you have to make decisions.
 You can't live a lot of places because you can't drive.
 You're kind of considered, you know, inconvenient if you can't drive.
 And I thought, "Yeah, this is ridiculous.
" This, you know, it really irritated me.
 And that's probably the first thing that started to spur me into action.
 But then also-- - How many years have you been on the front line, you think?
 - Well, so I had to give up driving about 15 years ago.
 And before that, you know, my sight was starting to impact things.
 But I didn't understand how much.
 
 
 Giving up driving really made that more apparent.
 And then, as I've lost more sight, you know, having to use technology in a much different way has really impacted me.
 And then, I've been really surprised by employers that should be progressive, very progressive employers, that are really inaccessible.
 Our state, you know, we're in Wisconsin.
 - You bring that up.
 I tend to ask people when I speak to them about, you know, whatever their thing is.
 - Yeah.
 - What is the state of things if you were gonna give a sort of a state of the things address about disability access?
 - [laughs] Oh, basically, so many things could be made better without the person who is being impacted or held back or affected by it doing all the work to change it.
 That is not how it happens in our state.
 So, we had a completely inaccess-- inaccessible state website system.
 So, if you're getting unemployment and you had to go to wisc.
jobs or whatever, all of it was completely, woefully inaccessible.
 - And when you talk about accessibility for something like that, what does that look like in terms of what does it need to-- - It means that if you're blind, you would have to have a sighted person help you use it because the technology wasn't kept up.
 So, it had clear ADA violations, so-- - And that's Lily tapping with her tail 'cause she's so happy to hear you.
 - Wendi: She's so happy.
 - .
speak about this.
 - She loves it when I get mad.
 So, she just taps, taps!
 [laughs] That's her clapping.
 
 
 - Just, "You go, girl!
 You go!
" - She's clapping for me right now.
 - I love that.
 - That's why I have a guide dog.
 It's just for encouragement.
 So, I went straight to my state rep at the time, Chris Taylor, and showed her and said, "How can this be," you know?
 And then she said, "Well, you know, I wanna help you.
 Do you have any ideas?
" And then, yeah, so I kind of pulled her in and pulled Neil Heinen, who's a fabulous disability rights advocate and activist and educator here in town and journalist, and together, we worked together, and eventually we were able to pull in all the different departments, hold people accountable, and the state websites were made accessible.
 But I wasn't the first person to do that.
 A lot of people pointed this out and said, "This isn't working.
" And it took-- why-- Why wasn't it important to the state to make it accessible without irritating the heck out of those of us who were impacted by their negligence?
 So, why does the person who's already being alienated or impacted then has to do the heavy lifting to get it to be made right?
 I would love for our state and our city to knock that off because it is so much work.
 And I mean, and that's kind of what led me to the cartoon.
 And that's why I said, "Advocacy is a bitch, and sometimes so am I.
" - Murv: Well, and we haven't even talked about that yet.
 - Yeah, but I'm just saying, that's where that came from.
 So, "Advocacy is a bitch and sometimes so am I," was me at a meeting-- - Murv: Well, let's-- let's give some reference here because that is your-- that's your website.
 - Wendi: Yeah.
 
 
 - That you just recently launched, a nonprofit to bring awareness.
 Why the name?
 - Well, because it's really-- so it's sort of just a play on words.
 I did say that in a meeting having to do with disability rights that it's, you know, if you speak up, you're made to feel like, or people will call you behind your back that you're bitching or you're a bitch because you are being-- it's righteous anger.
 It's not being a bitch.
 It's something that needs to be changed.
 It should have been changed before it impacted my life.
 And so, I had said that, "Advocacy is a bitch and sometimes so am I.
" And my friend Wendy Weiler made mugs for all a bunch of friends for my birthday that said that with my quote on there, and then I started thinking about it.
 And I thought, "Gosh, you know, I have this great guide dog.
 "She's adorable as heck.
 "And if she could speak up instead of me, "she'd be so much cuter.
 "People would be able to accept what she's saying so much better than me saying it.
" - Murv: Yeah.
 - And so, I started having my dog, I wrote this cartoon that my dog is speaking up in situations that are either violations or just poor communication things that create barriers for me as a person who's blind.
 And the very first one that we launched was about stopping in the crosswalks 'cause this is really dangerous for me and most people is when a car stops in a crosswalk, a guide dog won't leave the curb.
 So, they're trying to keep you safe and they know that's not right.
 We're not gonna go into that crosswalk.
 There's a car in that crosswalk.
 So, I might wait for three lights before some idiot doesn't stop in the crosswalk.
 We are so accustomed to wanting to be the first one to make it through the light.
 
 
 So, I just got so frustrated.
 So, that was the first cartoon, was explaining to people that when you stop on the crosswalk, you might as well have stopped on the sidewalk, 'cause I can't go.
 I am stuck.
 And the reason the guide dog won't go in front of it is because now we could get hit by the traffic coming at us, and the guide dog's smarter than that.
 But no one should go around a car that's in the crosswalk, because you're much more likely to get hit by oncoming-- that traffic that's coming in front of that car.
 So, we've had accidents with strollers and people in wheelchairs or people with walkers that have gone around the front.
 So, if the cartoon does even one thing, it would be to bring awareness that you're making a really dangerous situation if you are selfish enough to stop in the crosswalk.
 [laughs] - Yeah.
 And you talk about the use of the cartoon, and there's a series of them on the website, and it's really cool.
 I love the way you've done that.
 - Wendi: Thank you.
 - Why use that technique as a way to speak the message?
 - Well, you know, for as crabby as I sound right now, I think that humor is a much better way to get people to think about these things than, you know, anger.
 And the cartoons are fun and they're educational and they are geared towards adults.
 So, that's why I use-- that's why it's, advocacyisabitch.
com is the website.
 I didn't shy away from that word because I'm not-- this isn't for children and so much information about guide dogs or safety are created for children, and children are less likely to get it wrong.
 First off, they're not hiring people.
 They're not driving vehicles.
 You know, they're-- they don't own restaurants, you know?
 So, they're not getting these big things wrong that create barriers for me.
 
 
 Those are adults.
 And the other thing is that having it be for adults, people are finding more fun ways to use it.
 So, I have been, I was asked if it could be used for helping train bus drivers.
 I'm like, "I think bus drivers would like this, go right ahead.
" And I've had some restaurant groups ask if they can use it.
 And anyone can use it for their own advocacy, their own education.
 It's all copywritten, so they just can't make money on it, but they can use it any which way for any of their-- if they need slides for training or if they're, something's happening to them at work and they want people to understand why it's wrong, they can share the cartoon, which might be easier than speaking up on your own behalf.
 So, I'm hoping it'll be used to make things easier for people.
 - Yeah, and is there something about, you know, having Lily speak on your behalf that's more impactful to people you think than, you know, people listening to you speak on your behalf?
 - [laughs] She's so much cuter and sweeter and more palatable than me.
 - I don't know, Wendy.
 You're kind of sweet and cute yourself.
 - Oh, thank you, well-- - Murv: Wink, wink!
 [Wendi chuckles] - Gosh, so, but, like, yeah.
 So, I think she's good.
 And it's, there are things.
 Like, we were on a plane the other day and this-- and Lily and I get on the plane early because she needs to get settled before people are putting luggage and she, you know, you're getting her out of the way.
 It really makes it easier for other people to get on a plane more easily.
 And so, we're on the plane early.
 She's got her bottom underneath the seat in front of me.
 Her head's just right along the wall, like right here next to me.
 
 
 You wouldn't even know she was there.
 And this guy ahead of us gets in, he looks over, and he goes, "Oh, I wish I could bring my dog on the plane.
" And then I said, "Well, maybe you'll be lucky enough to go blind one day.
" And I was thinking, "I wish Lily could have said that instead of me.
" [laughs] - That would have definitely gone over better, probably.
 - And so, that is one of our cartoons, yeah.
 So, but, you know, it's not any-- you're not trying to get away with anything.
 If you can't see, a guide dog really helps you get someplace safely.
 You get to be independent.
 I don't have to fly with somebody else.
 I can independently fly home from my son and daughter-in-law's house in LA because I have a guide dog.
 It's not the same as your pet coming on the plane, and my guide dog will fall asleep in two seconds.
 So, but yeah, I wanted to do something that'd have a different way to communicate some of these important issues, and a way for people to share that information if they needed it, so.
 - Yeah, and I, in doing some of the research I looked at, there's a beautiful YouTube video that kind of explains a little bit about, you know, the "Advocacy is a bitch" project of yours.
 And one of the people that's featured in there, an artist, S-- what's his-- - Fred Seger.
 - Murv: Fred Seger.
 He said something that caught my attention in terms of coming to grips that, you know, he lives with a disability from PTSD.
 - Wendi: Right.
 - And it made me think about, you know, how I view myself in terms of having a disability, and the reluctance to accept that kind of title or label.
 Where do you think that comes from?
 - You know, that's the hardest part about disability rights.
 
 
 I mean, I think that's why our community is farther behind than the gay community, you know, and other communities.
 Because, you know, having a disability, I'm very comfortable with mine.
 But then my career also was-- it was easier for me to have a disability in my career of fundraiser.
 And I did a lot of fundraising for organizations that had to do with blindness so I could come out and be successful in my career.
 But I think some people don't want the people around them to know they have a disability 'cause they don't trust the people around them.
 They don't trust their employers.
 They don't trust the people who might be leaving them out.
 So, I think it signals, there's something really wrong with our culture that we can't use the tools we need competently and to know that we're safe coming out with our disability.
 So, I don't judge anybody who stays closeted with their disability.
 I just know it's much harder to do that.
 I'm very lucky to be able to use a sight cane or a guide dog, or be, you know, be honest about what I need.
 And I wish everybody had that ability, you know, had that opportunity to do that.
 - Yeah.
 - Wendi: But I have a friend who is a physician and she has my same blindness, but the type of physician she is, her blindness wouldn't matter.
 It's mostly research.
 She has learned how to do it.
 She knows the technology.
 But she's still really afraid to come out because of how that would impact the trajectory of her career, and I understand it 100%.
 - Yeah, I think for me, I get a sense of-- I think about who I am as a person.
 - Wendi: Mm-hmm.
 - And when you've lived your life in a certain way and then a piece of you is taken, taken away, or one of your senses is taken away or whatever that might be, I think you always reflect on yourself as who you know yourself to be, not as who you're becoming.
 
 
 - Mm-hmm.
 - Murv: And so.
 I don't lead with anything that I'm dealing with disability-wise because I don't.
 I don't want.
 I don't think I want people to feel like they have to do something extra for me.
 - Mm-hmm.
 - Or that I can't do it myself, or I can't, you know, and I'm, I'm certainly open about what I can and can't do.
 I mean-- - Wendi: Mm-hmm.
 - You know, I would have never thought that I'd be able to climb to the top of Camp Randall Stadium for a football game.
 - Right, right.
 - .
you know, three, six months after, you know, being in the hospital and stuck in a wheelchair for six months.
 - Wendi: Right.
 - But when it came time to have to do that, I got up to the top of that stadium.
 - Wendi: Mm-hmm.
 - I didn't stick around for the game 'cause the Badgers were getting their butt kicked.
 - [laughs] So, well, that's, yes.
 - And going down's a lot easier than going up for me.
 - Wendi: Yeah.
 - So, I think, you know, for me, that's where that reluctance comes from.
 So, I was curious to know if that's something that you had seen in terms of just dealing with people.
 
 
 - Yeah, and you know, too, I, you know, I was hit by a truck, but I wasn't hit by a truck.
 This is something I wanna change, this language.
 And I just used it.
 - And just-- - I was hit by a man driving a truck.
 You know, 'cause you'll say, "A woman was hit by a truck.
" No, I was hit by a man driving a truck.
 A man hit me with his truck.
 And I-- - Like, give context.
 It was at a crosswalk.
 - Wendi: Mm-hmm, and he had a stop sign.
 And he was.
 you know, very self-important and couldn't possibly be paying attention and hit me and Lily.
 And then I was unable to walk for quite a while.
 And so, it impacted my back and broke both legs, and.
 and so, being in a wheelchair and blind, that was a new experience for me.
 So, I was already a disability rights advocate, very outspoken and everything.
 But then being in a wheelchair, then I got to see all these other things that I hadn't been advocating for because I hadn't experienced 'em.
 And then I thought, what a jerk I am, because, you know, I should have been advocating for those things even.
 I should have been paying attention to the whole human experience, not just my human experience and not being able to see.
 I should have been more aware of the mobility limitations that are created by poor decisions by people who don't understand that humans, you know, operate-- - I think, we don't really know what to focus on until we have to focus on it because we're focusing on so much other stuff.
 - Wendi: Yeah.
 
 
 - .
in the process, right?
 I don't.
 - Yeah, but you know what?
 This is what I realized.
 We kind of live in, like how we see people with disabilities is how we're gonna treat our own selves when we have a disability.
 It's how we're gonna see ourselves when we have a disability.
 So, if we see people with disabilities as being an inconvenience or an anomaly or lesser than, when we have our inevitable disability, and we will, we will treat ourselves, we'll think of ourselves as an inconvenience or as less than.
 And, you know, that is something that's really important, that if we really cared about humanity and the human experience, we wouldn't need to experience it ourselves to care about all the people around us, right?
 But it's still very, very backwards.
 - But don't you find that people are constantly trying to equate, you know, the disability that you live with with something in their life that's common?
 - [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
 Which is fine, you know, whatever.
 I probably do it too.
 We probably do it about everything, you know?
 I know, but it's very funny.
 You know, people say to me 'cause they're maybe uncomfortable that I'm blind and when they realize, like, I cannot see them or I can't see what's on the table or something, they say, "Oh, I'm just like that without my contacts in the morning.
" And I think, "But then you put in your contacts.
" - Right?
 [Wendi laughs] - I'm like, "Oh, that's kind of the same, "except for the fact that I haven't been able "to put in my contacts for, you know, "like, I haven't been able to turn up my, the sharpness on my sight for a very long time.
" So, can you imagine you never got your contacts back?
 
 
 But still, at the same time, I mean, they're just trying to relate in a human way.
 - Murv: No, but it's-- - But it's irritating.
 - I know, but I still think it's like, you know, especially with you, it's like, I just don't look at you and think "disability.
" I don't look at you and think, "She can't see.
" And, you know, [Wendi laughs] and you're looking directly at me and this and that.
 And so, I don't see it that way, but I remember one of my other colleagues years ago, I won't name the name, but they were at a party and it was at nighttime, and this person was walking around with sunglasses on.
 And, you know, and this person had a few drinks, and whatever, "Sunglasses?
 "It's 11:30 at night.
 What are you, blind?
" [both laugh] Turns out the guy was blind.
 [both laugh] You know?
 What if, you know?
 - Yeah, oh, yeah.
 No.
 - But there's no one size that fits what a disability looks like.
 - Right, right.
 - Murv: You know?
 - And if you were born sighted, if you're, you know, you've already grown up knowing that when you're in a conversation, you're gonna try to look at the person in the eye.
 So, like, right now, I can see where your eyes are.
 I just can't see your mouth at the same time.
 But if it was just a little bit darker, I probably wouldn't find your eyes.
 
 
 And sometimes I'll just be off a little bit like, you know, looking and then, you know, and as probably maybe uncomfortable for the other person, but there's nothing I can do about it.
 I'm trying my hardest to find your eyes, that's what I do.
 When I get most irritated is when people keep doing things the same way that don't work for me, like, "It's right over there.
 It's right there, it's right over there.
" I'm like, "How many times "do you wanna say that before I can tell you "that means absolutely nothing to me?
" Over there?
 What does that even mean when the person can't see you in the first place?
 And those are the types of things I get much more.
 I wanna educate people.
 - Yeah, but is that because they're forgetting that you have a disability because they don't see you in that way?
 Because, you know, they just, you know, just don't see you in that way 'cause they're not paying attention like that, or?
 - Yeah, I know, and sometimes people just forget.
 You know, it is funny.
 There's funny things people have forgotten about.
 My mom asked me to pick up ice for a party.
 Which is really funny [laughs] 'cause I tried.
 - You can't do that?
 - Well, I mean, I could, but I would have to walk with a guide dog, get, like, a 10-pound bag of ice, get on a bus or an Uber, and then show up with a bag of water.
 But, yeah.
 And that's my mom, so there you go.
 That's how the world is.
 
 
 So, you just have sometimes, people just forget.
 That was like, "Oh, I'm sure somebody else could get the ice.
" - No, I thought it was interesting too, like, you know, I was, like I said, I was in a wheelchair for six months and, you know, I'm 6'5".
 - Wendi: Yeah.
 - You know, and I remember going to a concert reluctantly and, you know, and I just was super, super uncomfortable, but I knew I needed to kind of do this just to cope, you know, with my situation.
 And the entire time, all I saw was the back of people's butts.
 And I said, "Oh, this is a great concert.
" [both laugh] If it was called.
 Never mind what it would be called, but.
 - Wendi: Yeah, don't name it.
 - You know, so, it's.
 I don't know, it's just, there's so much to learn.
 - It is, you know?
 - As you go through the process.
 And I also found, like, whenever I needed help with something, those were the times that nobody helped me.
 - Mm-hmm.
 - And at a time when I didn't need help, those were the times when people tried to help me.
 I remember getting out of my car, the wheelchair's in the back, and I was able to kind of hop to the back, and I was putting my wheelchair in the back of my SUV and somebody was like, "Hey, hey, buddy, you need some help with that?
" I said, "No, I appreciate it, you know," and.
 So, I learned to just be thankful that people are paying attention a little bit.
 - Right.
 
 
 - But I'll tell you what, if I got that 60-pound gallon of water-- 40-pound gallon of water I need to get up those steps.
 - Yeah.
 - I was like, "Where's that dude "that wanted to help me in the parking lot the other day," or whatever.
 And, so I don't know.
 It's a.
 - And, you know, us being-- you can't expect people to know what you need unless you.
 Like, by using a sight cane, I give people the opportunity to be better people.
 Like, you know, 'cause I can't expect them to want, to understand why I can't find the bus stop or whatever if I don't use a sight cane.
 They don't know to help me, right?
 - Murv: Right.
 - So, using a sight cane or using a guide dog, it gives people more opportunities to be helpful.
 And generally they are, you know, and it was a really long time before I felt comfortable leaving the house with a sight cane.
 I just felt like, too many people are looking at you and, you know, jumping out of the way 'cause they're like, "Oh, blind woman's coming through.
" Now, I can't see 'em, so I don't really care.
 And that's one thing I could tell people who have progressive blindness.
 Start using the tools before you're completely dependent on them, because you can learn how to use 'em when you still have a little sight, and then just ignore all the drama around you of people jumping out of the way and things, 'cause eventually, you're not gonna be able to see them anyway, so who cares?
 But it was nice to be able to use the tools and learn how to use them gradually with progressive blindness.
 But now that I am a sight cane user, a guide dog user, I do find that people genuinely, in general are more helpful because they have the clues they need to understand why I'm doing what I'm doing.
 You know?
 That I'm not just stepping in front of them in a line or missing the garbage can.
 You really look like a jerk when you walk over with garbage and you just drop it next to the garbage.
 
 
 And then you just walk away, like, done.
 [laughs] And the garbage is just like-- that, you just look like such a jerk, but that, you know, that person might be blind.
 You know, that might be a reason why they walked over and then totally missed.
 - I've learned not to assume anything with anyone, so.
 - That's what I was gonna say.
 I think when you have your own disability, you are more patient and you assume.
 - Well, I can certainly tell when somebody has a bad leg and those sort of things.
 When I see 'em, that guy's got a prosthetic, you know, or, you know, you can see it.
 It just sticks out to you more.
 - Yeah.
 - I'd love to know, how do you keep from getting stuck into a pattern of missing, you know, what you used to be and what you used to do?
 And I say that because I think about my buddy Darryl and he lived in Canada at the time, in one of my favorite places, Vancouver.
 And I called him up one time and he says, "Man, "you know, I just got these-- I just burned myself, blah, blah, blah, blah.
" I said, "Burn yourself," you know?
 And he's legally blind.
 - Yeah.
 - I was like, I say, "Burn yourself how?
" "Man, I went in that kitchen, "thought I could cook me some fried chicken "'cause I was hungry for some fried chicken.
 And man, I spilled that grease all over my arms," and this and that.
 - Oh!
 - And he's like, seriously, you know, thank goodness he was okay.
 
 
 - Wendi: Wow, wow.
 - And it's like, he quickly learned that, yeah, I don't get to do that anymore.
 - Wendi: Mm-hmm.
 - And, you know, and I've had to let go of some things that I can't, I just physically can't do it anymore.
 - Mm-hmm.
 - And some things I can still physically do, I just can't do it as well, so I just don't wanna do 'em.
 - Wendi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
 - So, how do you fix that, Wendi Dwyer?
 [Wendi laughs] - No, I think that's such a good question 'cause, you know, you wanna stay your vibrant, successful self, whatever that is, you know, whatever you love doing, you wanna keep loving that, you know, it's so much a part-- so, if you keep giving up things without adding things, you could become, you know.
 'Cause, all right, here's the big deal, the big reveal or whatever.
 - Dun-dun-dun-dun!
 - You know, my mental state is as important as my blind, like blindness causes so much anxiety and so much extra work that it's not just the fact that I can't see.
 I mean, it's the wear and tear on your whole being.
 And so, I try to be very proactive about if I have to give something up, I try to think about what I really liked about it and can I do some of that somewhere else?
 So, I was an illustrator.
 I drew and taught art and everything.
 And so, I just thought I was, you know, so visually focused person.
 And so, I'd really think about what part of the creativity I could keep doing.
 So, thinking of this cartoon is sort of like, creativity is also problem solving.
 You know, what's a good way for me to communicate what I need without turning people off.
 And the cartoon was, you know, kind of fun.
 
 
 And, you know, having it be Lily is fun.
 So, that's a creative process that still fed that need without me being the person who drew the cartoon, which was really hard because I love drawing cartoons.
 But I looked for someone who could do it and I liked Fred's work, and then I picked him.
 Fred unfortunately has, is not going to be able to continue it 'cause he has, he's having a health issue.
 So, he's, I'm gonna be switching cartoonists, but not because he isn't awesome.
 He's fabulous.
 And, but he did the first 20 cartoons.
 Now we're transitioning into another cartoonist who also has a disability.
 So, I really want anyone involved in the project be someone who's impacted by disability, because the whole idea of the cartoon is to educate people to not create additional barriers to the original disability just through lack of awareness, really.
 - Yeah.
 - I don't think people don't care.
 I think people don't know, you know, really.
 That's what I believe.
 And I also believe all of us with our disabilities are sometimes in our own heads thinking about what other people are-- how other people are perceiving our disability.
 I was at a bar in Sarasota and I was sitting next to a man at the bar.
 I was waiting for a friend to come, and we're talking and he said, "Oh, wow, this is a--" He goes, "Pretty women don't normally talk to me.
" And I go, "Well, why wouldn't they?
 You're so fun.
" And he goes, well, he goes, "Well, 'cause you know.
" And then I was like, and then he said, then I'm like, "No, not really.
" "'Cause, you know.
 
 
" And I had no idea what he was talking about.
 It turned out he didn't have an arm.
 - Murv: Mm.
 - And he was so in his head thinking, "Oh, this woman's talking to me even though I don't have an arm.
" He had lost his arm fairly recently, and he's saying, "Oh my gosh, this woman's talking to me.
" And then I said, "You know I'm blind, right?
" And then the bartender said, "Can I tell the story over and over again?
 A blind woman walked into a bar.
" [laughs] - Oh, my goodness.
 - And so, it was really funny.
 So, the guy thought it was so funny.
 He goes, "Here the whole time you were talking to me, "I was thinking, oh, I wonder if she thinks about my arm.
 "And you didn't really think about my arm 'cause you couldn't even see me," you know?
 So, I just thought that was such a good picture of us, you know, with disabilities.
 - It is, and I think it's like.
 You know, if, first of all, what are the chances you're gonna encounter a blind person.
 - Pretty likely 'cause it's only 10% of us are out.
 There's 10 times more of me than you would think.
 But, okay.
 - That's a small, I guess my point is, is that more than likely he's used to encountering people that-- - They're fully sighted.
 - Murv: Yes.
 
 
 - And especially someone showing up at a bar alone, right?
 - And that's what they're gonna focus on 'cause that's how people sometimes see us.
 - Mm-hmm.
 - You know, and the thing that stands out, you know, I've talked about it in terms of race for me, you know?
 Thank goodness I've lived a number of places.
 I just don't see that in that way.
 You know, my friends are not, "Oh, that's my Black friend Tony "or my white friend John or whatever, my Asian friend Lou and my blind friend Wendi.
" It's like, man, it doesn't work that way for me.
 But some people do, I guess, put those, they can put those labels on us, I guess.
 - Mm-hmm.
 And then, people start to think about what you can't do and if you should be invited to this or that.
 Somebody was having a game night and said, "Well, I would have invited you, but I didn't know if you could play games.
" And I'm like-- - No, people are quick to make assumptions about what they think you can and can't do.
 And I try to correct that pretty quickly because it's like, if I can't do it, I'm gonna let you know.
 - Mm-hmm.
 And I think that's the right way to do it.
 Invite everybody, and if the person needs something, they'll tell you, you know?
 If they need someone to pick them up on the way or they need, you know, so I think that's the right way to do it is just invite everyone and you don't have to worry, know that person's disability and try to meet every need because that person's going through their whole day everywhere and figuring it out for themselves.
 So, you know, they'll figure it out at your party.
 - Yeah, I learned a lot through my-- I had a friend, Greg Smith, rest in peace as well.
 Greg was a disability rights advocate, had a show called On a Roll and he had muscular dystrophy.
 
 
 And I used to travel with him to different gigs and do things like that, and I learned so much, you know, just being around him in terms of how people treat him.
 And he used to do this thing where I'd travel with him on a-- I call 'em flying machines, but an airplane.
 And.
 - Wait, how old are you?
 You call 'em flying machines?
 [laughs] - Murv: We're not talking about that.
 Cut that part out.
 Flying machine.
 I call it a flying machine.
 You know, and they'd have to break his power chair down to pack it under the.
 - Right, right.
 - .
you know, which is the whole thing.
 And they load him onto the plane with this, he called it the Hannibal Lecter board.
 It was this big, you know, it was this very dehumanizing kind of thing.
 But they would sit there and, I was his travel companion, and they'd say, "Is he gonna need that chair broken down?
" or whatever.
 And so, the whole thing was they, you know, they would never talk to him.
 - Right, right.
 - Because they look at him as this 70-pound, you know, man in this chair.
 And, you know, they don't think he can communicate.
 
 
 They don't think he can speak for himself.
 And so, he would say, "Well, he has a name and he can hear you.
" [Wendi chuckles] You know, and so, I always mock and make fun of that, when I hear people say stuff when they act like you're not present and you're literally-- - Yeah, that's kind of that whole, how you see people with disabilities is how you're gonna see yourself when you have a disability.
 You know, I had this awakening one night and I wrote it down, and I think it might be my quote unless somebody else already said that, but I really believe it.
 Because if you think about how you would wanna be treated, you would never not talk to the person.
 Like, if you really understood at some point I'm going to have a disability and I want people to respect me and include me, then I'm never not going to speak to the person the way I would want to be spoken to for the rest of my life.
 And I had a neighbor who-- they were the chair of a big gala, a huge gala.
 And the gala was for a, it was a adult living situation for people with developmental disabilities.
 And this couple, they had just been invited the year before and they were very wealthy.
 So, then they got voted to be the chairs, and they hadn't really gotten any great education about disability awareness at all.
 And the man, you know, he's in his tuxedo and he's speaking about these-- "Can you imagine if--" Like kind of a degradating way.
 And one of the parents of a resident just got up and just said, "This is bull####.
" Like you should not be, like, this is so-- you do not understand.
 And they were just so upset by the language and the attitudes towards the person that they love who was experiencing this disability.
 And the couple that was the chair thought, "Oh, how ungrateful.
 "We're doing this for their grown child, and this is how they treat us?
" Well, it was only seven or eight years later that that person had ALS.
 That person in the tuxedo who was the grand person of this black tie event, who had used poor language and attitudes and definitely did not see the people that they were raising the money for as equals, he was completely disabled by ALS.
 And I remember thinking, wow, I wonder how he sees himself, 'cause I know how he saw people then.
 I heard his language and I know he really didn't get it.
 And then, I thought, oh, well, his disability is probably that much harder on him because that's how he sees people with disabilities.
 
 
 - Yeah.
 - And so, I would say that for all of us, you know, and I didn't understand how different people were treated when you use a wheelchair 'til I needed to use a wheelchair after I was hit by the truck.
 And that gave me more, you know, more awareness.
 But anyway, that's, that's it, is, you know, basically it's for us, you know, when we're not ableist or we're more aware of what people need, it's really for us and how we're gonna treat ourselves as we get older or have disabilities.
 And, but, you know, I, yeah.
 I know I wish I had done things better all the way along, but I think you and I, we've always had friends with disabilities that we loved and respected.
 So, we've been pretty fortunate that way.
 And-- - Yeah, and when you see it, it's just a natural part of your life basically.
 - Right, so I don't think it-- it didn't really define me to go, not to go blind, but to become more blind.
 It didn't really define me because I saw so many great people living with disabilities.
 - Murv: Yeah.
 - I mean, we had those examples, so we were lucky.
 - Yeah.
 I'm gonna wrap this up here, but we already talked a little bit about, you know, the state and there needs to be some mass improvements in terms of accessibility around here.
 - Yeah.
 - But if you could plop yourself any place in the world, any place in these United States that's doing it right, that's set up a, you know, a community that, you know, makes life easier for people with disabilities, where would you put yourself and what does that look like?
 - God, I love that question.
 For me, it would be St.
 Petersburg, Florida.
 - [gasps] Florida?
 - Yeah, [laughs] St.
 
 
 Petersburg, Florida by far, their paratransit program-- so, I.
 - And help people out, paratransit just means.
 - That's for anybody who can't drive, who has a disability.
 So, it's-- and their program is so accessible, the technology of it is accessible, the system's accessible.
 It's a really positive experience.
 I have blind friends that I visit down there and it's just dreamy to me, their freedom.
 They have so many more opportunities than I have here in Madison, Wisconsin, just because their paratransit is flexible.
 It works, it's accessible.
 It's just lovely.
 Ours is fairly old.
 - Yeah.
 And what's it gonna take for Wisconsin to get there, and who's leading that fight as far as the advocacy part of it?
 - I'm one of 'em, you know, I'm in there.
 You know, I've been, you know, bringing information.
 I'm a disability rights commissioner.
 The commission is working hard.
 The disability rights commission-- - But I guess I'm asking is is that, you know, is that on the state level?
 Is that community, community groups?
 - Oh, no.
 Wisconsin Council of the Blind and Visually Impaired.
 Denise Jess is amazing and tireless.
 
 
 I mean, there's so many people.
 And it's really not, I mean, we're spending a lot of money, so it's not that it would cost money, more money to do it better.
 It'd probably cost less money to do it better.
 We have some pretty silly things.
 Like one of them was, this technology that we bought when we got federal money, we never implemented it.
 Now it's four years old and we're rolling it out.
 There's so much better technology in the last four years, but we have to use what we bought with the federal funds.
 So, that means those of us who need to use the paratransit are kind of stuck with a, an old thing that's being rolled out as a new thing.
 I mean, it's just bureaucracy, poor decisions, people really maybe in decision-making positions that really don't care, that don't believe that they will ever need to use paratransit.
 So, yeah, I think it impacts-- our paratransit in Dane County only goes as far as where buses go.
 So, if you were in Stoughton, had a stroke this weekend and couldn't see, good luck working in Madison because it would cost you so much money to take an Uber from Madison, you know, to your job and back.
 And people just don't expect these things to happen.
 And then when they do, they think, "Wow, I thought we were so much better than this.
" And that's-- if I ever ran for anything, that would be my slogan.
 "We thought we were so much better than this.
" - Mm, I love that.
 - You know?
 So, I think that's just over and over again, "We're Madison, we're better than this, right?
" No, we're not.
 And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of things.
 But I would say St.
 
 
 Petersburg, Florida, in a lot of ways.
 It is just so many good decisions have been made by so many good people who actually use the systems, and I think that's really important.
 So, yeah, that's where I would go.
 And I go periodically and I'm so happy there, and then I come back here and I love Madison, and I just wanna make it better than it is.
 - Look who's showing up to tell us to wrap it up.
 - [laughs] Are you Murv's dog now?
 Are you Murv's dog?
 - I appreciate it, look at you.
 She's like, "Oh, yeah, I like that!
" I appreciate you and Lily opening up your home, and I appreciate you being on the front line.
 And, you know what?
 I'll be there with you at some point.
 - Yeah, well, tell me what you need.
 And then in the meantime, I'll tell people to go to advocacyisabitch.
com.
 Check out our video on the home page.
 That beautiful video's made by John Urban.
 - What is going on right now?
 - Lily?
 She just loves you.
 - I love her.
 
 
 - So, this is when she's not working.
 This is what she's like.
 You're not gonna love your pants later on, just so you know.
 That's okay.
 - Yeah, okay.
 - Wendi, I appreciate you stopping by.
 - Well, actually, you stopped by.
 I live here.
 - You know what, well played, my friend.
 - I appreciate you stopping by.
 Thank you.
 - It's really good to see you.
 Appreciate you so much.
 - Well, stop by often, so thank you.
 - Murv: Okay.
 - Thanks a lot.