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[percussive music]

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- Murv Seymour: Wendi Dwyer,
welcome to <i>In Focus.</i>

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- Wendi Dwyer:
Thank you for having me.

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- I appreciate you opening up
your beautiful home to us

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and your beautiful
guide dog Lily.

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- Well, thank you for coming.

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It's nice having you here.

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- Yeah, yeah,
I want you to, you know,

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feel comfortable in your own
home, Wendi.

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Relax, it's not like you and I
don't know each other.

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We go back
a pretty good ways now.

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- Oh, my gosh, how many years?
- Murv: Well...

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- Third grade
in Jeff Yu's backyard.

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- I remember
Jeff Yu's backyard.

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Rest in peace, Jeff Yu,
Dr. Jeff Yu.

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Orchard,
was it Orchard Ridge?

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- No, Nakoma on Yuma Drive.

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- I-- so long ago.
[both laugh]

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But we go
back to back, to then,

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and then, you know,
obviously,

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then we went to
high school together briefly.

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- Yeah.
- And I ended up going to--

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had to go to East 'cause my mom
ended up moving across town,

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which I'm still
not happy about.

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- We still think
you're a Westie.

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- Murv: I'm-- I'm a--
- Yeah, we kept you.

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- I'm definitely a Regent.
[Wendi laughs]

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But yeah,
here we sit, and...

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And I'm so excited to have
this conversation with you.

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You're a disability rights
activist, advocate,

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and I talked about

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some of the things that
we share in common,

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and we share the fact

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that we both have disabilities
in common.

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And I think when people
look at us,

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they don't really
know it right away.

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Like, I know you

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and you and I have gone
to dinner before, and...

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and I forget that you're,
you know, you're--

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you're visually impaired.
- Mm-hmm.

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- And so,
when we talk about disability,

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what exactly
does that even represent

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when we kind of define that?

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- Well, I would say,
you know,

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I'm really comfortable
with my disability.

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And I, I'm blind,

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you know, I would even say
more than visually impaired,

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and blindness is any sight

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that can't be corrected
through glasses or surgeries.

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And my blindness impacts
every part of every day.

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So, I want
to make people aware

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that we are all out there
doing things.

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Only 10% of us are out as blind.

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So, most people
that are blind

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don't use a sight cane
or a guide dog.

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So, there's a lot of blind
people around you all the time.

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But I'm one of the very out
blind people. [laughs]

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- And then you get-- but you--

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but you also get people
that are like,

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"Oh, you don't look--
you don't look blind."

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- [laughs] Oh, every day,

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every day.
- You know?

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You don't have glasses on.
- Oh, yeah.

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Oh, I like when people
suggest I wear glasses.

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I'm like, "Glasses?

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[laughs]
When did this happen?"

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That just is
the most ridiculous.

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- I mean,
I feel bad to say this,

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but I,
I had a really good friend.

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Rest in peace as well,
Darryl Lenox.

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Comedian,
really good comedian,

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and he was losing his eyesight
and I used to,

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you know,
tease him about it.

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I'd say, "Man,
you got to put something on

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"that one that doesn't work
so we know

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not to look at that one."
[Wendi chuckles]

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And, you know, the things we say
when we don't know any better.

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- Yeah, you know,

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but when it's people that
you know,

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it makes it
more comfortable for--

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I mean, I tease.

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- Well, and he was a--
he's a comic.

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I did comedy as well.
- Yeah.

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- So, I think the laughter
is a big way

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of how we cope with the things
that are challenging us.

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And I know certainly for me,
being new in the--

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in the community,
I'm still, you know,

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even cautious about having this
conversation with you

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and revealing things

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about, you know,
what I'm dealing with

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when it comes to having
multiple disabilities.

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- Wendi: Yeah.
- But I think that humor

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is a big part of, I think,

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how some of us
do cope with it.

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- Mm-hmm,
and I think it's best

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if it's our-- other people
not imparting their--

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trying to make themselves
feel more comfortable

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with your disability.

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You know, it's different
if you're feeling comfortable

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with your own disability,

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but it's really not--
doesn't add much

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when somebody else
is just using their humor

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so that they can be
more comfortable

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with your disability.

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- No, I've noticed that
because I think what happens is,

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is like, it's like if you're
the person that's living it,

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it's certainly okay for you
to make fun of it.

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- Mm-hmm.
- In terms of how

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you're gonna cope with that.

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And I remember, I was working.

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I was working
at ABC station in Milwaukee,

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and we had a young lady

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who was a reporter at one
of the opposition stations,

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and she had a prosthetic
left arm.

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And one of the reporters
tells me the story about

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someone, you know, at the job
didn't know that she--

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they didn't know that
she had a prosthetic.

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They just never
had paid attention to it.

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And they saw her typing
back in the days

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when we had typewriters.

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And that's a thing.

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Typewriters, guys, that's--
look it up.

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Google it.
[Wendi laughs]

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But she was typing
with one hand.

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And, you know,
and the person yells out,

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"Hey, so-and-so, we type
with two hands around here."

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- [laughs]
So, did she give her--

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give them the finger
with her prosthetic hand?

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[both laugh]

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I would,
if I had a prosthetic arm,

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I would just have it giving
the finger all the time.

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- Right?
- And if anybody did anything,

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I'd just lift it up like, just,
here you go, lift it up.

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- You know, I could do something
really funny

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about the whole finger thing,
but I'm not gonna do it

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because I don't wanna go
there right now.

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- That's what I would do, 100%.
- But no, but it's just--

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I think it's just--
I think it's amazing.

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Sometimes I think,
you know,

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that people aren't thinking...
- Wendi: Mm-hmm.

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- Murv: ...about anyone other
than themselves.

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- Or that they think it's
so unusual to have a disability.

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I mean, that's
where this all comes down to,

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that we're still so far behind
that we don't understand

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the human condition is
to be fallible.

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Like we get diseases,
we have accidents.

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We--
things change, you know?

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That's why we're humans.
- Murv: Yeah.

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- Wendi: And we're still
so surprised by it.

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We've been humans for--
since the beginning of time.

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And this is still like,
like, you know,

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I'm some people's blind friend,
and I'm like,

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"I'm not your only blind
friend, I'm just--" [laughs]

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- Well, you know, and it's,

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yeah.
- Wendi: And, you know.

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So, it's--
it isn't unusual.

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It's not at all unusual

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for humans to be experiencing
disabilities.

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It's the human condition,
you know?

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That's what makes us human.

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But then, we have people
who think they're infallible

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making decisions.

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And that's not healthy
for anybody.

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We should expect humans
to show up,

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and humans show up
in all different ways, so.

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- Yeah,
and it's interesting for me

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as I navigate, you know,
my new life, getting around,

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you know,
you start to realizing how,

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how inaccessible some--

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some, like, basic things are.
[Wendi laughs]

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- Yeah, yeah, we're the worst.

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We're the worst
of the disabled, okay.

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I'll just tell you, you and I,
we are the worst

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because people who are born
blind or they're born,

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you know, with a
mobility disability or whatever.

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They have known this forever.

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Like, this all sucks and it
should be better than it is.

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Then we show up, you know,
'cause I was, you know.

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When we were young,
I was sighted, fully sighted.

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I used to drive, you know,

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I've had to give up driving
15 years ago.

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I've become more and more blind,
you know, progressively.

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And yeah, I'm like,

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"Why doesn't this exist,"
you know?

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But why didn't I care
that it didn't exist

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before I was blind?
- Murv: Right.

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- Wendi: Why did it have
to impact me for me to care?

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Right?
- Murv: Right.

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- So, that is how backwards
we all are.

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Like, I should have cared that
these things were so out of,

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you know, creating limitations
for any human, you know?

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So, yeah, we're the worst.

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And, but, you know,
we're squawking

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and the other people are like,
"Yeah, where were you when,

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"you know, I was in school
in a wheelchair

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and couldn't get to the
second floor," or whatever.

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And now, we're surprised we
can't get to whatever, you know?

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So, but anyway, that's why

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I'm a disability rights advocate
and activist.

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And, I said, you know,
I find it all really irritating.

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- Yeah,
I was gonna say, well...

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- [laughs]
Extremely irritating, yeah.

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- I think, but the irritation is
what creates action, right?

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- Yeah.

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- You know,
and I was gonna ask you,

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how did you fall
into this role as an advocate

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and what does being
an advocate mean to you?

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- Well,
I fell into this role

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'cause it's kind of
my personality.

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You know, I,
if something's wrong,

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I wanna know why it's wrong
and how it got to be that way

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and why it stays that way.

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So, I have been that way always.

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You know, I've just--

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try to, you know,
I want things to be better

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than they are generally
all the time.

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- Murv: Right.

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- And when I had to give up
driving,

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I was so surprised,

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like, how much
the world is built for drivers.

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Like, it just floored me
that if you can't drive,

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you can't do a lot of things
and you have to make decisions.

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You can't live a lot of places
because you can't drive.

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You're kind of considered,
you know,

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inconvenient
if you can't drive.

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And I thought,
"Yeah, this is ridiculous."

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This, you know,
it really irritated me.

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And that's probably
the first thing

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that started to spur me
into action.

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But then also--

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- How many years have you been
on the front line, you think?

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- Well, so I had to give up
driving about 15 years ago.

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And before that,
you know,

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my sight was starting
to impact things.

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But I didn't understand
how much.

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Giving up driving
really made that more apparent.

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And then, as I've lost
more sight, you know,

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having to use technology
in a much different way

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has really impacted me.

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And then, I've been
really surprised by employers

241
00:09:46,186 --> 00:09:50,257
that should be progressive,
very progressive employers,

242
00:09:50,324 --> 00:09:52,125
that are really
inaccessible.

243
00:09:52,192 --> 00:09:54,561
Our state, you know,
we're in Wisconsin.

244
00:09:54,628 --> 00:09:55,829
- You bring that up.

245
00:09:55,896 --> 00:09:58,031
I tend to ask people
when I speak to them about,

246
00:09:58,098 --> 00:09:59,299
you know,
whatever their thing is.

247
00:09:59,366 --> 00:10:01,301
- Yeah.
- What is the state of things

248
00:10:01,368 --> 00:10:04,438
if you were gonna give a sort
of a state of the things address

249
00:10:04,505 --> 00:10:07,741
about disability access?
- [laughs] Oh, basically,

250
00:10:07,808 --> 00:10:12,813
so many things could be made
better without the person

251
00:10:13,547 --> 00:10:16,283
who is being impacted
or held back

252
00:10:16,350 --> 00:10:19,987
or affected by it
doing all the work to change it.

253
00:10:20,053 --> 00:10:22,155
That is not
how it happens in our state.

254
00:10:22,222 --> 00:10:24,758
So, we had a completely
inaccess--

255
00:10:24,825 --> 00:10:27,194
inaccessible state
website system.

256
00:10:27,261 --> 00:10:28,529
So, if you're getting
unemployment

257
00:10:28,595 --> 00:10:30,697
and you had to go
to wisc.jobs or whatever,

258
00:10:30,764 --> 00:10:34,701
all of it was completely,
woefully inaccessible.

259
00:10:34,768 --> 00:10:36,103
- And when you talk
about accessibility

260
00:10:36,170 --> 00:10:37,905
for something like that,
what does that look like

261
00:10:37,971 --> 00:10:39,506
in terms of
what does it need to--

262
00:10:39,573 --> 00:10:40,908
- It means
that if you're blind,

263
00:10:40,974 --> 00:10:43,377
you would have to have
a sighted person help you use it

264
00:10:43,443 --> 00:10:46,346
because the technology
wasn't kept up.

265
00:10:46,413 --> 00:10:50,017
So, it had clear
ADA violations, so--

266
00:10:50,083 --> 00:10:51,618
- And that's Lily
tapping with her tail

267
00:10:51,685 --> 00:10:53,020
'cause she's so happy
to hear you...

268
00:10:53,086 --> 00:10:54,821
- Wendi: She's so happy.
- ...speak about this.

269
00:10:54,888 --> 00:10:56,423
- She loves it when I get mad.

270
00:10:56,490 --> 00:10:57,624
So, she just taps, taps!
[laughs]

271
00:10:57,691 --> 00:10:59,226
That's her clapping.
- Just, "You go, girl!

272
00:10:59,293 --> 00:11:00,394
You go!"

273
00:11:00,460 --> 00:11:01,795
- She's clapping for me
right now.

274
00:11:01,862 --> 00:11:04,198
- I love that.
- That's why I have a guide dog.

275
00:11:04,264 --> 00:11:05,432
It's just
for encouragement.

276
00:11:05,499 --> 00:11:07,634
So, I went straight
to my state rep at the time,

277
00:11:07,701 --> 00:11:09,703
Chris Taylor,
and showed her and said,

278
00:11:09,770 --> 00:11:11,772
"How can this be,"
you know?

279
00:11:11,839 --> 00:11:14,308
And then she said, "Well,
you know, I wanna help you.

280
00:11:14,374 --> 00:11:15,475
Do you have any ideas?"

281
00:11:15,542 --> 00:11:17,211
And then, yeah,

282
00:11:17,678 --> 00:11:20,547
so I kind of pulled her in
and pulled Neil Heinen,

283
00:11:20,614 --> 00:11:25,552
who's a fabulous disability
rights advocate and activist

284
00:11:25,619 --> 00:11:29,189
and educator
here in town and journalist,

285
00:11:29,256 --> 00:11:31,592
and together,
we worked together,

286
00:11:31,658 --> 00:11:33,160
and eventually
we were able

287
00:11:33,227 --> 00:11:34,561
to pull in all the
different departments,

288
00:11:34,628 --> 00:11:35,729
hold people accountable,

289
00:11:35,796 --> 00:11:38,699
and the state websites
were made accessible.

290
00:11:38,765 --> 00:11:40,734
But I wasn't the first person
to do that.

291
00:11:40,801 --> 00:11:43,871
A lot of people
pointed this out

292
00:11:43,937 --> 00:11:45,772
and said,
"This isn't working."

293
00:11:45,839 --> 00:11:47,374
And it took-- why--

294
00:11:47,441 --> 00:11:50,777
Why wasn't it important
to the state

295
00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:53,881
to make it accessible

296
00:11:53,947 --> 00:11:58,185
without irritating the heck
out of those of us

297
00:11:58,785 --> 00:12:01,655
who were impacted
by their negligence?

298
00:12:01,722 --> 00:12:06,159
So, why does the person
who's already being alienated

299
00:12:06,226 --> 00:12:10,230
or impacted then
has to do the heavy lifting

300
00:12:10,764 --> 00:12:12,199
to get it to be made right?

301
00:12:12,266 --> 00:12:14,902
I would love for our state
and our city

302
00:12:14,968 --> 00:12:18,906
to knock that off
because it is so much work.

303
00:12:18,972 --> 00:12:20,541
And I mean,

304
00:12:20,607 --> 00:12:23,177
and that's kind of what led me
to the cartoon.

305
00:12:23,243 --> 00:12:24,945
And that's why I said,

306
00:12:25,012 --> 00:12:26,980
"Advocacy is a bitch,
and sometimes so am I."

307
00:12:27,047 --> 00:12:29,183
- Murv: Well, and we haven't
even talked about that yet.

308
00:12:29,249 --> 00:12:31,585
- Yeah, but I'm just saying,

309
00:12:31,652 --> 00:12:32,753
that's where that
came from.

310
00:12:32,819 --> 00:12:34,755
So, "Advocacy is a bitch
and sometimes so am I,"

311
00:12:34,821 --> 00:12:36,623
was me at a meeting--
- Murv: Well, let's--

312
00:12:36,690 --> 00:12:38,892
let's give some reference here
because that is your--

313
00:12:38,959 --> 00:12:40,561
that's your website.
- Wendi: Yeah.

314
00:12:40,627 --> 00:12:42,262
- That you
just recently launched,

315
00:12:42,329 --> 00:12:45,332
a nonprofit
to bring awareness.

316
00:12:46,166 --> 00:12:47,267
Why the name?

317
00:12:47,334 --> 00:12:49,169
- Well, because it's really--

318
00:12:49,236 --> 00:12:51,839
so it's sort of just
a play on words.

319
00:12:51,905 --> 00:12:54,241
I did say that in a meeting

320
00:12:56,910 --> 00:12:58,512
having to do
with disability rights

321
00:12:58,579 --> 00:13:01,682
that it's, you know,
if you speak up,

322
00:13:01,748 --> 00:13:04,284
you're made to feel like,

323
00:13:04,351 --> 00:13:06,119
or people will call you
behind your back

324
00:13:06,186 --> 00:13:08,655
that you're bitching
or you're a bitch

325
00:13:08,722 --> 00:13:12,926
because you are being--
it's righteous anger.

326
00:13:12,993 --> 00:13:14,094
It's not being a bitch.

327
00:13:14,161 --> 00:13:15,495
It's something
that needs to be changed.

328
00:13:15,562 --> 00:13:18,131
It should have been changed
before it impacted my life.

329
00:13:18,198 --> 00:13:20,334
And so, I had said that,

330
00:13:21,602 --> 00:13:23,670
"Advocacy is a bitch
and sometimes so am I."

331
00:13:23,737 --> 00:13:26,440
And my friend Wendy Weiler
made mugs for all

332
00:13:26,507 --> 00:13:27,841
a bunch of friends
for my birthday

333
00:13:27,908 --> 00:13:30,110
that said that with my quote
on there,

334
00:13:30,177 --> 00:13:31,512
and then I started
thinking about it.

335
00:13:31,578 --> 00:13:33,947
And I thought, "Gosh, you know,
I have this great guide dog.

336
00:13:34,014 --> 00:13:35,582
"She's adorable as heck.

337
00:13:35,649 --> 00:13:38,819
"And if she could speak up
instead of me,

338
00:13:38,886 --> 00:13:40,354
"she'd be so much cuter.

339
00:13:40,420 --> 00:13:42,389
"People would be able
to accept what she's saying

340
00:13:42,456 --> 00:13:44,057
so much better
than me saying it."

341
00:13:44,124 --> 00:13:45,225
- Murv: Yeah.

342
00:13:45,292 --> 00:13:47,327
- And so, I started
having my dog,

343
00:13:47,394 --> 00:13:50,664
I wrote this cartoon that
my dog is speaking up

344
00:13:50,731 --> 00:13:54,635
in situations
that are either violations

345
00:13:57,938 --> 00:14:00,974
or just
poor communication things

346
00:14:01,041 --> 00:14:05,279
that create barriers for me
as a person who's blind.

347
00:14:05,345 --> 00:14:09,116
And the very first one
that we launched

348
00:14:09,183 --> 00:14:11,218
was about stopping
in the crosswalks

349
00:14:11,285 --> 00:14:16,290
'cause this is really dangerous
for me and most people

350
00:14:17,191 --> 00:14:20,160
is when a car stops
in a crosswalk,

351
00:14:20,227 --> 00:14:22,529
a guide dog
won't leave the curb.

352
00:14:22,596 --> 00:14:24,298
So, they're trying
to keep you safe

353
00:14:24,364 --> 00:14:25,499
and they know
that's not right.

354
00:14:25,566 --> 00:14:26,900
We're not gonna go
into that crosswalk.

355
00:14:26,967 --> 00:14:28,402
There's a car
in that crosswalk.

356
00:14:28,468 --> 00:14:30,170
So, I might wait
for three lights

357
00:14:30,237 --> 00:14:33,540
before some idiot doesn't stop
in the crosswalk.

358
00:14:33,607 --> 00:14:37,411
We are so accustomed
to wanting to be the first one

359
00:14:37,477 --> 00:14:38,979
to make it
through the light.

360
00:14:39,046 --> 00:14:41,748
So, I just got so frustrated.

361
00:14:41,815 --> 00:14:44,751
So, that was the first cartoon,
was explaining to people

362
00:14:44,818 --> 00:14:46,153
that when you stop
on the crosswalk,

363
00:14:46,220 --> 00:14:47,955
you might as well have stopped
on the sidewalk,

364
00:14:48,021 --> 00:14:49,122
'cause I can't go.

365
00:14:49,189 --> 00:14:50,524
I am stuck.

366
00:14:50,591 --> 00:14:53,060
And the reason the guide dog
won't go in front of it

367
00:14:53,126 --> 00:14:57,598
is because now we could get hit
by the traffic coming at us,

368
00:14:57,664 --> 00:14:59,633
and the guide dog's smarter
than that.

369
00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:02,736
But no one should go around
a car that's in the crosswalk,

370
00:15:02,803 --> 00:15:06,473
because you're much more likely
to get hit by oncoming--

371
00:15:06,540 --> 00:15:10,010
that traffic that's coming
in front of that car.

372
00:15:10,077 --> 00:15:12,012
So, we've had accidents
with strollers

373
00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:15,582
and people in wheelchairs
or people with walkers

374
00:15:15,649 --> 00:15:16,950
that have gone
around the front.

375
00:15:17,017 --> 00:15:19,953
So, if the cartoon
does even one thing,

376
00:15:20,020 --> 00:15:22,089
it would be
to bring awareness

377
00:15:22,155 --> 00:15:25,259
that you're making
a really dangerous situation

378
00:15:25,325 --> 00:15:29,029
if you are selfish enough
to stop in the crosswalk.

379
00:15:29,096 --> 00:15:30,564
[laughs]
- Yeah.

380
00:15:30,631 --> 00:15:33,800
And you talk about the use
of the cartoon,

381
00:15:33,867 --> 00:15:35,002
and there's a series of them

382
00:15:35,068 --> 00:15:36,403
on the website,
and it's really cool.

383
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:38,605
I love the way you've done that.
- Wendi: Thank you.

384
00:15:38,672 --> 00:15:39,773
- Why use that technique

385
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,508
as a way to speak
the message?

386
00:15:41,575 --> 00:15:44,711
- Well, you know, for as crabby
as I sound right now,

387
00:15:44,778 --> 00:15:48,282
I think that humor is a much
better way to get people

388
00:15:48,348 --> 00:15:53,153
to think about these things
than, you know, anger.

389
00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:57,157
And the cartoons are fun
and they're educational

390
00:15:57,224 --> 00:16:00,027
and they are geared
towards adults.

391
00:16:00,093 --> 00:16:01,195
So, that's why I use--

392
00:16:01,261 --> 00:16:03,197
that's why it's,
advocacyisabitch.com

393
00:16:03,263 --> 00:16:04,498
is the website.

394
00:16:04,565 --> 00:16:06,533
I didn't shy away
from that word

395
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,635
because I'm not--
this isn't for children

396
00:16:08,702 --> 00:16:13,373
and so much information
about guide dogs or safety

397
00:16:14,074 --> 00:16:16,710
are created for children,

398
00:16:16,777 --> 00:16:19,947
and children are less likely
to get it wrong.

399
00:16:20,013 --> 00:16:21,448
First off,
they're not hiring people.

400
00:16:21,515 --> 00:16:22,983
They're not
driving vehicles.

401
00:16:23,050 --> 00:16:24,685
You know, they're--

402
00:16:24,751 --> 00:16:26,386
they don't own restaurants,
you know?

403
00:16:26,453 --> 00:16:28,755
So, they're not getting
these big things wrong

404
00:16:28,822 --> 00:16:30,390
that create barriers for me.

405
00:16:30,457 --> 00:16:31,758
Those are adults.

406
00:16:31,825 --> 00:16:36,496
And the other thing is that
having it be for adults,

407
00:16:38,765 --> 00:16:41,235
people are finding
more fun ways to use it.

408
00:16:41,301 --> 00:16:42,736
So, I have been,

409
00:16:42,803 --> 00:16:45,939
I was asked if it could be used
for helping train bus drivers.

410
00:16:46,006 --> 00:16:47,741
I'm like, "I think bus drivers
would like this,

411
00:16:47,808 --> 00:16:48,909
go right ahead."

412
00:16:48,976 --> 00:16:50,110
And I've had some
restaurant groups

413
00:16:50,177 --> 00:16:51,311
ask if they can use it.

414
00:16:51,378 --> 00:16:54,681
And anyone can use it
for their own advocacy,

415
00:16:54,748 --> 00:16:56,917
their own education.

416
00:16:56,984 --> 00:16:58,252
It's all copywritten,

417
00:16:58,318 --> 00:16:59,853
so they just can't make
money on it,

418
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,156
but they can use it
any which way for any of their--

419
00:17:03,223 --> 00:17:04,925
if they need slides for training

420
00:17:04,992 --> 00:17:07,027
or if they're, something's
happening to them at work

421
00:17:07,094 --> 00:17:09,096
and they want people
to understand why it's wrong,

422
00:17:09,162 --> 00:17:10,497
they can share the cartoon,

423
00:17:10,564 --> 00:17:12,966
which might be easier than
speaking up on your own behalf.

424
00:17:13,033 --> 00:17:15,602
So, I'm hoping it'll be used

425
00:17:17,538 --> 00:17:19,273
to make things easier
for people.

426
00:17:19,339 --> 00:17:22,176
- Yeah, and is there something
about, you know,

427
00:17:22,242 --> 00:17:24,711
having Lily speak
on your behalf

428
00:17:24,778 --> 00:17:29,116
that's more impactful to people
you think than, you know,

429
00:17:29,183 --> 00:17:31,285
people listening
to you speak

430
00:17:31,351 --> 00:17:33,687
on your behalf?
- [laughs]

431
00:17:33,754 --> 00:17:36,089
She's so much cuter
and sweeter

432
00:17:36,156 --> 00:17:38,058
and more palatable
than me.

433
00:17:38,125 --> 00:17:39,226
- I don't know, Wendy.

434
00:17:39,293 --> 00:17:40,627
You're kind of sweet
and cute yourself.

435
00:17:40,694 --> 00:17:41,995
- Oh, thank you, well--

436
00:17:42,062 --> 00:17:44,565
- Murv: Wink, wink!
[Wendi chuckles]

437
00:17:44,631 --> 00:17:47,201
- Gosh,
so, but, like, yeah.

438
00:17:47,534 --> 00:17:48,735
So, I think she's good.

439
00:17:48,802 --> 00:17:51,505
And it's,
there are things.

440
00:17:51,572 --> 00:17:54,908
Like, we were on a plane
the other day and this--

441
00:17:54,975 --> 00:17:57,377
and Lily and I
get on the plane early

442
00:17:57,444 --> 00:18:00,380
because she needs
to get settled

443
00:18:00,447 --> 00:18:02,883
before people are putting
luggage and she,

444
00:18:02,950 --> 00:18:04,685
you know, you're getting her
out of the way.

445
00:18:04,751 --> 00:18:06,286
It really makes it easier
for other people

446
00:18:06,353 --> 00:18:07,988
to get on a plane more easily.

447
00:18:08,055 --> 00:18:10,290
And so, we're on the plane
early.

448
00:18:10,357 --> 00:18:12,626
She's got her bottom underneath
the seat in front of me.

449
00:18:12,693 --> 00:18:14,294
Her head's just right
along the wall,

450
00:18:14,361 --> 00:18:15,963
like right here next to me.

451
00:18:16,029 --> 00:18:17,831
You wouldn't even know
she was there.

452
00:18:17,898 --> 00:18:21,602
And this guy ahead of us
gets in, he looks over,

453
00:18:21,668 --> 00:18:24,438
and he goes, "Oh, I wish I could
bring my dog on the plane."

454
00:18:24,505 --> 00:18:26,440
And then I said, "Well,
maybe you'll be lucky enough

455
00:18:26,507 --> 00:18:27,608
to go blind one day."

456
00:18:27,674 --> 00:18:29,009
And I was thinking,

457
00:18:29,076 --> 00:18:31,445
"I wish Lily could have said
that instead of me." [laughs]

458
00:18:31,512 --> 00:18:33,247
- That would have definitely
gone over better, probably.

459
00:18:33,313 --> 00:18:35,315
- And so, that is one
of our cartoons, yeah.

460
00:18:35,382 --> 00:18:38,385
So, but, you know,
it's not any--

461
00:18:39,253 --> 00:18:41,188
you're not trying
to get away with anything.

462
00:18:41,255 --> 00:18:42,456
If you can't see,

463
00:18:42,523 --> 00:18:44,992
a guide dog really helps you
get someplace safely.

464
00:18:45,058 --> 00:18:46,293
You get to be independent.

465
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:47,895
I don't have to fly
with somebody else.

466
00:18:47,961 --> 00:18:50,330
I can independently fly home
from my son

467
00:18:50,397 --> 00:18:51,999
and daughter-in-law's
house in LA

468
00:18:52,065 --> 00:18:54,268
because I have a guide dog.

469
00:18:54,334 --> 00:18:57,538
It's not the same as your pet
coming on the plane,

470
00:18:57,604 --> 00:18:59,706
and my guide dog will fall
asleep in two seconds.

471
00:18:59,773 --> 00:19:01,542
So, but yeah,

472
00:19:01,608 --> 00:19:05,112
I wanted to do something
that'd have a different way

473
00:19:05,179 --> 00:19:08,248
to communicate some
of these important issues,

474
00:19:08,315 --> 00:19:10,951
and a way for people
to share that information

475
00:19:11,018 --> 00:19:12,586
if they needed it, so.

476
00:19:12,653 --> 00:19:15,722
- Yeah, and I, in doing some
of the research I looked at,

477
00:19:15,789 --> 00:19:17,257
there's a beautiful
YouTube video

478
00:19:17,324 --> 00:19:21,528
that kind of explains a little
bit about, you know, the

479
00:19:21,595 --> 00:19:23,964
"Advocacy is a bitch"
project of yours.

480
00:19:24,031 --> 00:19:26,834
And one of the people
that's featured in there,

481
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:28,669
an artist, S--
what's his--

482
00:19:28,735 --> 00:19:30,637
- Fred Seger.
- Murv: Fred Seger.

483
00:19:30,704 --> 00:19:32,439
He said something that caught
my attention

484
00:19:32,506 --> 00:19:34,975
in terms
of coming to grips

485
00:19:36,043 --> 00:19:39,746
that, you know, he lives
with a disability from PTSD.

486
00:19:39,813 --> 00:19:42,916
- Wendi: Right.
- And it made me think about,

487
00:19:42,983 --> 00:19:45,152
you know,
how I view myself

488
00:19:45,219 --> 00:19:47,654
in terms of having
a disability,

489
00:19:47,721 --> 00:19:49,423
and the reluctance
to accept that

490
00:19:49,489 --> 00:19:51,625
kind of title or label.

491
00:19:53,227 --> 00:19:56,063
Where do you think
that comes from?

492
00:19:56,129 --> 00:20:01,134
- You know, that's the hardest
part about disability rights.

493
00:20:01,201 --> 00:20:06,206
I mean, I think that's why
our community is farther behind

494
00:20:06,273 --> 00:20:07,975
than the gay community,
you know,

495
00:20:08,041 --> 00:20:10,277
and other communities.

496
00:20:11,144 --> 00:20:14,515
Because, you know,
having a disability,

497
00:20:14,581 --> 00:20:16,250
I'm very comfortable
with mine.

498
00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:18,986
But then my career
also was--

499
00:20:20,354 --> 00:20:22,122
it was easier for me
to have a disability

500
00:20:22,189 --> 00:20:23,624
in my career of fundraiser.

501
00:20:23,690 --> 00:20:25,058
And I did a lot
of fundraising

502
00:20:25,125 --> 00:20:27,528
for organizations that had to do
with blindness

503
00:20:27,594 --> 00:20:30,564
so I could come out
and be successful in my career.

504
00:20:30,631 --> 00:20:34,101
But I think some people don't
want the people around them

505
00:20:34,168 --> 00:20:35,302
to know
they have a disability

506
00:20:35,369 --> 00:20:37,070
'cause they don't trust
the people around them.

507
00:20:37,137 --> 00:20:38,839
They don't trust
their employers.

508
00:20:38,906 --> 00:20:42,342
They don't trust the people
who might be leaving them out.

509
00:20:42,409 --> 00:20:44,545
So, I think it signals,

510
00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:49,583
there's something
really wrong with our culture

511
00:20:49,650 --> 00:20:53,220
that we can't use the tools
we need competently

512
00:20:53,287 --> 00:20:57,057
and to know that we're safe
coming out with our disability.

513
00:20:57,124 --> 00:20:59,326
So, I don't judge anybody

514
00:20:59,393 --> 00:21:01,628
who stays closeted
with their disability.

515
00:21:01,695 --> 00:21:03,697
I just know it's much harder
to do that.

516
00:21:03,764 --> 00:21:08,402
I'm very lucky to be able to use
a sight cane or a guide dog,

517
00:21:08,468 --> 00:21:11,338
or be, you know,
be honest about what I need.

518
00:21:11,405 --> 00:21:14,975
And I wish everybody
had that ability,

519
00:21:15,909 --> 00:21:18,312
you know,
had that opportunity to do that.

520
00:21:18,378 --> 00:21:20,314
- Yeah.
- Wendi: But I have a friend

521
00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:24,852
who is a physician and she has
my same blindness,

522
00:21:28,322 --> 00:21:30,023
but the type
of physician she is,

523
00:21:30,090 --> 00:21:31,758
her blindness wouldn't matter.

524
00:21:31,825 --> 00:21:33,594
It's mostly research.

525
00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:34,995
She has learned how to do it.

526
00:21:35,062 --> 00:21:36,530
She knows the technology.

527
00:21:36,597 --> 00:21:39,700
But she's still really afraid
to come out

528
00:21:39,766 --> 00:21:42,269
because of how that
would impact

529
00:21:42,336 --> 00:21:47,474
the trajectory of her career,
and I understand it 100%.

530
00:21:47,541 --> 00:21:49,910
- Yeah, I think for me,
I get a sense of--

531
00:21:49,977 --> 00:21:51,111
I think about who I am

532
00:21:51,178 --> 00:21:52,412
as a person.
- Wendi: Mm-hmm.

533
00:21:52,479 --> 00:21:55,983
- And when you've lived
your life in a certain way

534
00:21:56,049 --> 00:21:58,785
and then a piece of you
is taken, taken away,

535
00:21:58,852 --> 00:22:02,589
or one of your senses is taken
away or whatever that might be,

536
00:22:02,656 --> 00:22:04,224
I think you always reflect
on yourself

537
00:22:04,291 --> 00:22:07,728
as who you know yourself to be,
not as who you're becoming.

538
00:22:07,794 --> 00:22:10,297
- Mm-hmm.
- Murv: And so...

539
00:22:10,364 --> 00:22:12,666
I don't lead with anything
that I'm dealing with

540
00:22:12,733 --> 00:22:16,203
disability-wise
because I don't...

541
00:22:17,437 --> 00:22:18,906
I don't want...

542
00:22:18,972 --> 00:22:20,841
I don't think
I want people to feel

543
00:22:20,908 --> 00:22:22,643
like they have to do
something extra for me.

544
00:22:22,709 --> 00:22:25,078
- Mm-hmm.
- Or that I can't do it myself,

545
00:22:25,145 --> 00:22:27,214
or I can't, you know, and I'm,

546
00:22:27,281 --> 00:22:29,316
I'm certainly open
about what I can and can't do.

547
00:22:29,383 --> 00:22:31,718
I mean--
- Wendi: Mm-hmm.

548
00:22:32,152 --> 00:22:33,820
- You know,
I would have never thought

549
00:22:33,887 --> 00:22:35,789
that I'd be able to climb
to the top

550
00:22:35,856 --> 00:22:38,225
of Camp Randall Stadium
for a football game...

551
00:22:38,292 --> 00:22:39,426
- Right, right.
- ...you know,

552
00:22:39,493 --> 00:22:40,928
three, six months after,

553
00:22:40,994 --> 00:22:43,897
you know,
being in the hospital

554
00:22:44,965 --> 00:22:46,800
and stuck in a wheelchair
for six months.

555
00:22:46,867 --> 00:22:48,635
- Wendi: Right.
- But when it came time

556
00:22:48,702 --> 00:22:51,038
to have to do that,
I got up

557
00:22:51,805 --> 00:22:54,174
to the top of that stadium.
- Wendi: Mm-hmm.

558
00:22:54,241 --> 00:22:55,776
- I didn't stick around
for the game

559
00:22:55,843 --> 00:22:57,377
'cause the Badgers
were getting their butt kicked.

560
00:22:57,444 --> 00:22:58,679
- [laughs]
So, well, that's, yes.

561
00:22:58,745 --> 00:23:01,315
- And going down's a lot easier
than going up for me.

562
00:23:01,381 --> 00:23:04,751
- Wendi: Yeah.
- So, I think, you know, for me,

563
00:23:04,818 --> 00:23:07,087
that's where
that reluctance comes from.

564
00:23:07,154 --> 00:23:08,889
So, I was curious to know
if that's something

565
00:23:08,956 --> 00:23:11,091
that you had seen in terms
of just dealing with people.

566
00:23:11,158 --> 00:23:12,926
- Yeah, and you know, too,

567
00:23:12,993 --> 00:23:15,896
I, you know,
I was hit by a truck,

568
00:23:16,597 --> 00:23:17,931
but I wasn't hit
by a truck.

569
00:23:17,998 --> 00:23:19,867
This is something
I wanna change, this language.

570
00:23:19,933 --> 00:23:22,202
And I just used it.
- And just--

571
00:23:22,269 --> 00:23:24,204
- I was hit by a man
driving a truck.

572
00:23:24,271 --> 00:23:26,607
You know, 'cause you'll say,
"A woman was hit by a truck."

573
00:23:26,673 --> 00:23:29,376
No, I was hit by a man
driving a truck.

574
00:23:29,443 --> 00:23:32,112
A man hit me
with his truck.

575
00:23:32,179 --> 00:23:33,780
And I--
- Like, give context.

576
00:23:33,847 --> 00:23:35,315
It was at a crosswalk.

577
00:23:35,382 --> 00:23:37,684
- Wendi: Mm-hmm,
and he had a stop sign.

578
00:23:37,751 --> 00:23:39,419
And he was...

579
00:23:40,754 --> 00:23:42,523
you know,
very self-important

580
00:23:42,589 --> 00:23:45,125
and couldn't possibly
be paying attention

581
00:23:45,192 --> 00:23:46,560
and hit me and Lily.

582
00:23:46,627 --> 00:23:50,330
And then I was unable
to walk for quite a while.

583
00:23:50,397 --> 00:23:55,469
And so, it impacted my back
and broke both legs, and...

584
00:23:55,536 --> 00:23:58,705
and so, being in
a wheelchair and blind,

585
00:23:58,772 --> 00:24:00,707
that was a new experience
for me.

586
00:24:00,774 --> 00:24:02,910
So, I was already a
disability rights advocate,

587
00:24:02,976 --> 00:24:04,378
very outspoken
and everything.

588
00:24:04,444 --> 00:24:05,946
But then being
in a wheelchair,

589
00:24:06,013 --> 00:24:07,848
then I got to see all
these other things

590
00:24:07,915 --> 00:24:09,583
that I hadn't been
advocating for

591
00:24:09,650 --> 00:24:11,084
because I hadn't
experienced 'em.

592
00:24:11,151 --> 00:24:12,886
And then I thought,
what a jerk I am,

593
00:24:12,953 --> 00:24:14,655
because, you know,

594
00:24:14,721 --> 00:24:17,024
I should have been advocating
for those things even.

595
00:24:17,090 --> 00:24:18,725
I should have
been paying attention

596
00:24:18,792 --> 00:24:20,127
to the whole
human experience,

597
00:24:20,194 --> 00:24:23,630
not just my human experience
and not being able to see.

598
00:24:23,697 --> 00:24:25,299
I should have been more aware

599
00:24:25,365 --> 00:24:29,603
of the mobility limitations
that are created

600
00:24:30,337 --> 00:24:32,372
by poor decisions by people
who don't understand

601
00:24:32,439 --> 00:24:34,208
that humans,
you know, operate--

602
00:24:34,274 --> 00:24:36,543
- I think,
we don't really know

603
00:24:36,610 --> 00:24:38,745
what to focus on
until we have to focus on it

604
00:24:38,812 --> 00:24:40,347
because we're focusing
on so much other stuff.

605
00:24:40,414 --> 00:24:41,949
- Wendi: Yeah.
- ...in the process, right?

606
00:24:42,015 --> 00:24:43,550
I don't...
- Yeah, but you know what?

607
00:24:43,617 --> 00:24:45,552
This is what I realized.

608
00:24:45,619 --> 00:24:47,287
We kind of live in,

609
00:24:49,122 --> 00:24:51,191
like how we see people
with disabilities

610
00:24:51,258 --> 00:24:53,260
is how we're gonna treat
our own selves

611
00:24:53,327 --> 00:24:54,428
when we have a disability.

612
00:24:54,494 --> 00:24:56,263
It's how we're gonna see
ourselves

613
00:24:56,330 --> 00:24:57,998
when we have a disability.

614
00:24:58,065 --> 00:25:01,101
So, if we see people
with disabilities

615
00:25:01,168 --> 00:25:05,973
as being an inconvenience
or an anomaly or lesser than,

616
00:25:06,039 --> 00:25:08,542
when we have
our inevitable disability,

617
00:25:08,609 --> 00:25:12,012
and we will,
we will treat ourselves,

618
00:25:12,079 --> 00:25:16,583
we'll think of ourselves as an
inconvenience or as less than.

619
00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:19,653
And, you know,
that is something

620
00:25:20,254 --> 00:25:23,991
that's really important, that if
we really cared about humanity

621
00:25:24,057 --> 00:25:25,759
and the human experience,

622
00:25:25,826 --> 00:25:28,529
we wouldn't need
to experience it ourselves

623
00:25:28,595 --> 00:25:31,265
to care about all the people
around us, right?

624
00:25:31,331 --> 00:25:34,601
But it's still very,
very backwards.

625
00:25:34,668 --> 00:25:37,437
- But don't you find that
people are constantly trying

626
00:25:37,504 --> 00:25:39,406
to equate, you know,

627
00:25:40,874 --> 00:25:43,310
the disability
that you live with

628
00:25:43,377 --> 00:25:46,146
with something in their life
that's common?

629
00:25:46,213 --> 00:25:47,614
- [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

630
00:25:47,681 --> 00:25:49,550
Which is fine,
you know, whatever.

631
00:25:49,616 --> 00:25:50,717
I probably do it too.

632
00:25:50,784 --> 00:25:52,853
We probably do it
about everything, you know?

633
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,888
I know, but it's very funny.

634
00:25:54,955 --> 00:25:56,190
You know, people say to me

635
00:25:56,256 --> 00:25:58,759
'cause they're maybe
uncomfortable that I'm blind

636
00:25:58,825 --> 00:26:00,060
and when they realize, like,

637
00:26:00,127 --> 00:26:02,563
I cannot see them or
I can't see what's on the table

638
00:26:02,629 --> 00:26:04,498
or something, they say,
"Oh, I'm just like that

639
00:26:04,565 --> 00:26:07,768
without my contacts
in the morning."

640
00:26:07,835 --> 00:26:10,470
And I think, "But then
you put in your contacts."

641
00:26:10,537 --> 00:26:11,705
- Right?
[Wendi laughs]

642
00:26:11,772 --> 00:26:14,808
- I'm like, "Oh,
that's kind of the same,

643
00:26:14,875 --> 00:26:16,710
"except for the fact
that I haven't been able

644
00:26:16,777 --> 00:26:18,478
"to put in my contacts
for, you know,

645
00:26:18,545 --> 00:26:21,615
"like, I haven't been
able to turn up my,

646
00:26:21,682 --> 00:26:24,251
the sharpness on my sight
for a very long time."

647
00:26:24,318 --> 00:26:27,221
So, can you imagine you
never got your contacts back?

648
00:26:27,287 --> 00:26:28,555
But still, at the same time,

649
00:26:28,622 --> 00:26:30,891
I mean, they're just trying
to relate in a human way.

650
00:26:30,958 --> 00:26:32,693
- Murv: No, but it's--
- But it's irritating.

651
00:26:32,759 --> 00:26:34,895
- I know, but I still think
it's like, you know,

652
00:26:34,962 --> 00:26:36,230
especially with you, it's like,

653
00:26:36,296 --> 00:26:38,232
I just don't look at you
and think "disability."

654
00:26:38,298 --> 00:26:40,367
I don't look at you
and think, "She can't see."

655
00:26:40,434 --> 00:26:41,835
And, you know,
[Wendi laughs]

656
00:26:41,902 --> 00:26:43,837
and you're looking directly
at me and this and that.

657
00:26:43,904 --> 00:26:45,439
And so, I don't
see it that way,

658
00:26:45,506 --> 00:26:49,510
but I remember one of
my other colleagues years ago,

659
00:26:49,576 --> 00:26:50,677
I won't name the name,

660
00:26:50,744 --> 00:26:55,082
but they were at a party
and it was at nighttime,

661
00:26:55,916 --> 00:26:58,819
and this person was walking
around with sunglasses on.

662
00:26:58,886 --> 00:27:02,122
And, you know, and this person
had a few drinks, and whatever,

663
00:27:02,189 --> 00:27:03,290
"Sunglasses?

664
00:27:03,357 --> 00:27:04,458
"It's 11:30 at night.

665
00:27:04,525 --> 00:27:06,293
What are you, blind?"
[both laugh]

666
00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:08,295
Turns out the guy was blind.

667
00:27:08,362 --> 00:27:10,497
[both laugh]
You know?

668
00:27:11,031 --> 00:27:14,034
What if, you know?
- Yeah, oh, yeah.

669
00:27:14,101 --> 00:27:16,670
No...
- But there's no one size

670
00:27:16,737 --> 00:27:18,772
that fits what
a disability looks like.

671
00:27:18,839 --> 00:27:20,340
- Right, right.
- Murv: You know?

672
00:27:20,407 --> 00:27:23,010
- And if you were
born sighted,

673
00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:24,978
if you're, you know,

674
00:27:25,312 --> 00:27:27,981
you've already
grown up knowing

675
00:27:28,048 --> 00:27:29,483
that when you're
in a conversation,

676
00:27:29,550 --> 00:27:32,319
you're gonna try to look at the
person in the eye.

677
00:27:32,386 --> 00:27:36,056
So, like, right now, I can see
where your eyes are.

678
00:27:36,123 --> 00:27:38,258
I just can't see your mouth
at the same time.

679
00:27:38,325 --> 00:27:40,060
But if it was just
a little bit darker,

680
00:27:40,127 --> 00:27:41,662
I probably wouldn't find
your eyes.

681
00:27:41,728 --> 00:27:43,730
And sometimes I'll just
be off a little bit like,

682
00:27:43,797 --> 00:27:46,400
you know, looking
and then, you know,

683
00:27:46,466 --> 00:27:48,135
and as probably

684
00:27:48,869 --> 00:27:50,470
maybe uncomfortable
for the other person,

685
00:27:50,537 --> 00:27:52,072
but there's nothing
I can do about it.

686
00:27:52,139 --> 00:27:53,774
I'm trying my hardest
to find your eyes,

687
00:27:53,841 --> 00:27:55,309
that's what I do.

688
00:27:55,375 --> 00:27:57,711
When I get most irritated

689
00:27:57,778 --> 00:28:01,048
is when people keep doing
things the same way

690
00:28:01,114 --> 00:28:04,084
that don't work for me, like,
"It's right over there.

691
00:28:04,151 --> 00:28:07,421
It's right <i>there,</i>
it's right <i>over there."</i>

692
00:28:07,487 --> 00:28:09,323
I'm like, "How many times

693
00:28:09,389 --> 00:28:11,325
"do you wanna say that
before I can tell you

694
00:28:11,391 --> 00:28:12,860
"that means absolutely
nothing to me?"

695
00:28:12,926 --> 00:28:14,161
Over there?

696
00:28:14,228 --> 00:28:15,395
What does that even mean

697
00:28:15,462 --> 00:28:18,165
when the person can't see you
in the first place?

698
00:28:18,232 --> 00:28:22,903
And those are the types
of things I get much more...

699
00:28:23,504 --> 00:28:25,272
I wanna educate people.

700
00:28:25,339 --> 00:28:27,441
- Yeah, but is that
because they're forgetting

701
00:28:27,508 --> 00:28:28,609
that you have a disability

702
00:28:28,675 --> 00:28:30,210
because they don't see you
in that way?

703
00:28:30,277 --> 00:28:31,645
Because, you know,
they just, you know,

704
00:28:31,712 --> 00:28:33,046
just don't see you
in that way

705
00:28:33,113 --> 00:28:34,648
'cause they're not paying
attention like that, or?

706
00:28:34,715 --> 00:28:37,217
- Yeah, I know, and sometimes
people just forget.

707
00:28:37,284 --> 00:28:39,253
You know, it is funny.

708
00:28:39,319 --> 00:28:42,856
There's funny things
people have forgotten about.

709
00:28:42,923 --> 00:28:46,660
My mom asked me
to pick up ice for a party.

710
00:28:46,727 --> 00:28:49,496
Which is really funny
[laughs] 'cause I tried.

711
00:28:49,563 --> 00:28:50,864
- You can't do that?

712
00:28:50,931 --> 00:28:52,566
- Well, I mean, I could,

713
00:28:52,633 --> 00:28:54,568
but I would have to walk
with a guide dog,

714
00:28:54,635 --> 00:28:58,739
get, like, a 10-pound bag
of ice, get on a bus or an Uber,

715
00:28:58,805 --> 00:29:00,541
and then show up
with a bag of water.

716
00:29:00,607 --> 00:29:02,309
But, yeah.

717
00:29:02,376 --> 00:29:04,845
And that's my mom,
so there you go.

718
00:29:04,912 --> 00:29:06,180
That's how the world is.

719
00:29:06,246 --> 00:29:08,282
So, you just have
sometimes, people just forget.

720
00:29:08,348 --> 00:29:11,285
That was like, "Oh, I'm sure
somebody else

721
00:29:11,351 --> 00:29:12,586
could get the ice."

722
00:29:12,653 --> 00:29:14,788
- No, I thought it was
interesting too, like, you know,

723
00:29:14,855 --> 00:29:17,391
I was, like I said, I was in a
wheelchair for six months

724
00:29:17,457 --> 00:29:19,259
and, you know, I'm 6'5".
- Wendi: Yeah.

725
00:29:19,326 --> 00:29:22,896
- You know, and I remember
going to a concert reluctantly

726
00:29:22,963 --> 00:29:25,799
and, you know, and I just was
super, super uncomfortable,

727
00:29:25,866 --> 00:29:29,970
but I knew I needed to kind of
do this just to cope,

728
00:29:30,037 --> 00:29:32,072
you know,
with my situation.

729
00:29:32,139 --> 00:29:35,309
And the entire time, all I saw
was the back of people's butts.

730
00:29:35,375 --> 00:29:39,112
And I said, "Oh, this is a
great concert." [both laugh]

731
00:29:39,179 --> 00:29:40,981
If it was called...

732
00:29:41,415 --> 00:29:43,617
Never mind what
it would be called, but...

733
00:29:43,684 --> 00:29:48,488
- Wendi: Yeah, don't name it.
- You know, so, it's...

734
00:29:49,089 --> 00:29:51,892
I don't know, it's just,
there's so much to learn.

735
00:29:51,959 --> 00:29:53,360
- It is, you know?

736
00:29:53,427 --> 00:29:55,395
- As you go through the process.

737
00:29:55,462 --> 00:29:57,664
And I also found, like,

738
00:29:57,731 --> 00:30:01,568
whenever I needed help
with something,

739
00:30:01,635 --> 00:30:04,371
those were the times
that nobody helped me.

740
00:30:04,438 --> 00:30:05,539
- Mm-hmm.

741
00:30:05,606 --> 00:30:07,708
- And at a time
when I didn't need help,

742
00:30:07,774 --> 00:30:10,511
those were the times
when people tried to help me.

743
00:30:10,577 --> 00:30:13,580
I remember
getting out of my car,

744
00:30:14,081 --> 00:30:15,249
the wheelchair's in the back,

745
00:30:15,315 --> 00:30:18,619
and I was able to
kind of hop to the back,

746
00:30:18,685 --> 00:30:23,090
and I was putting my wheelchair
in the back of my SUV

747
00:30:23,156 --> 00:30:26,960
and somebody was like,
"Hey, hey, buddy,

748
00:30:28,529 --> 00:30:30,664
you need some help
with that?"

749
00:30:30,731 --> 00:30:34,568
I said, "No, I appreciate it,
you know," and...

750
00:30:34,635 --> 00:30:36,069
So, I learned
to just be thankful

751
00:30:36,136 --> 00:30:37,905
that people are paying
attention a little bit.

752
00:30:37,971 --> 00:30:39,640
- Right.

753
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:41,608
- But I'll tell you what,

754
00:30:41,675 --> 00:30:43,210
if I got that 60-pound
gallon of water--

755
00:30:43,277 --> 00:30:45,546
40-pound gallon of water
I need to get up those steps.

756
00:30:45,612 --> 00:30:47,347
- Yeah.
- I was like, "Where's that dude

757
00:30:47,414 --> 00:30:49,149
"that wanted to help me
in the parking lot

758
00:30:49,216 --> 00:30:50,617
the other day,"
or whatever.

759
00:30:50,684 --> 00:30:52,452
And, so I don't know.

760
00:30:52,519 --> 00:30:55,222
It's a...
- And, you know, us being--

761
00:30:55,289 --> 00:30:57,658
you can't expect people
to know what you need

762
00:30:57,724 --> 00:30:59,393
unless you...

763
00:31:00,527 --> 00:31:02,296
Like, by using a sight cane,

764
00:31:02,362 --> 00:31:07,034
I give people the opportunity
to be better people.

765
00:31:08,035 --> 00:31:10,304
Like, you know, 'cause I can't
expect them to want,

766
00:31:10,370 --> 00:31:13,006
to understand why I can't find
the bus stop or whatever

767
00:31:13,073 --> 00:31:14,608
if I don't use a sight cane.

768
00:31:14,675 --> 00:31:16,276
They don't know
to help me, right?

769
00:31:16,343 --> 00:31:17,444
- Murv: Right.

770
00:31:17,511 --> 00:31:20,214
- So, using a sight cane
or using a guide dog,

771
00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,116
it gives people more
opportunities to be helpful.

772
00:31:23,183 --> 00:31:25,586
And generally they are,
you know,

773
00:31:25,652 --> 00:31:27,888
and it was
a really long time

774
00:31:27,955 --> 00:31:30,324
before I felt comfortable
leaving the house

775
00:31:30,390 --> 00:31:31,592
with a sight cane.

776
00:31:31,658 --> 00:31:34,494
I just felt like, too many
people are looking at you

777
00:31:34,561 --> 00:31:37,631
and, you know, jumping out
of the way 'cause they're like,

778
00:31:37,698 --> 00:31:39,800
"Oh, blind woman's
coming through."

779
00:31:39,867 --> 00:31:41,969
Now, I can't see 'em,
so I don't really care.

780
00:31:42,035 --> 00:31:43,837
And that's one thing
I could tell people

781
00:31:43,904 --> 00:31:45,038
who have progressive
blindness.

782
00:31:45,105 --> 00:31:46,240
Start using the tools

783
00:31:46,306 --> 00:31:48,775
before you're completely
dependent on them,

784
00:31:48,842 --> 00:31:51,011
because you can learn
how to use 'em

785
00:31:51,078 --> 00:31:52,579
when you still have
a little sight,

786
00:31:52,646 --> 00:31:55,716
and then just ignore
all the drama around you

787
00:31:55,782 --> 00:31:57,518
of people jumping out
of the way and things,

788
00:31:57,584 --> 00:31:58,919
'cause eventually, you're not
gonna be able

789
00:31:58,986 --> 00:32:00,320
to see them anyway,
so who cares?

790
00:32:00,387 --> 00:32:04,057
But it was nice
to be able to use the tools

791
00:32:05,425 --> 00:32:07,361
and learn
how to use them gradually

792
00:32:07,427 --> 00:32:09,997
with progressive blindness.

793
00:32:10,063 --> 00:32:12,165
But now that I am a
sight cane user,

794
00:32:12,232 --> 00:32:13,901
a guide dog user,

795
00:32:15,302 --> 00:32:18,305
I do find
that people genuinely,

796
00:32:19,606 --> 00:32:22,676
in general are more helpful
because they have the clues

797
00:32:22,743 --> 00:32:25,712
they need to understand
why I'm doing what I'm doing.

798
00:32:25,779 --> 00:32:27,014
You know?

799
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,416
That I'm not just stepping
in front of them in a line

800
00:32:29,483 --> 00:32:32,119
or missing the garbage can.

801
00:32:32,186 --> 00:32:34,521
You really look like a jerk
when you walk over with garbage

802
00:32:34,588 --> 00:32:36,323
and you just drop it
next to the garbage.

803
00:32:36,390 --> 00:32:38,158
And then you just
walk away, like, done.

804
00:32:38,225 --> 00:32:40,994
[laughs]
And the garbage is just like--

805
00:32:41,061 --> 00:32:43,764
that, you just look like
such a jerk,

806
00:32:43,830 --> 00:32:46,433
but that, you know,
that person might be blind.

807
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:47,835
You know,
that might be a reason

808
00:32:47,901 --> 00:32:50,037
why they walked over
and then totally missed.

809
00:32:50,103 --> 00:32:52,039
- I've learned not to assume
anything with anyone, so.

810
00:32:52,105 --> 00:32:53,440
- That's what
I was gonna say.

811
00:32:53,507 --> 00:32:55,709
I think when you have
your own disability,

812
00:32:55,776 --> 00:32:59,146
you are more patient
and you assume...

813
00:32:59,213 --> 00:33:02,616
- Well, I can certainly tell
when somebody has a bad leg

814
00:33:02,683 --> 00:33:03,951
and those sort of things.

815
00:33:04,017 --> 00:33:07,054
When I see 'em, that guy's got
a prosthetic, you know,

816
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:08,822
or, you know,
you can see it.

817
00:33:08,889 --> 00:33:10,557
It just sticks out
to you more.

818
00:33:10,624 --> 00:33:12,960
- Yeah.
- I'd love to know,

819
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,165
how do you keep from getting
stuck into a pattern of missing,

820
00:33:18,232 --> 00:33:21,101
you know, what you used to be
and what you used to do?

821
00:33:21,168 --> 00:33:23,303
And I say that because
I think about my buddy Darryl

822
00:33:23,370 --> 00:33:26,640
and he lived in Canada
at the time,

823
00:33:26,707 --> 00:33:29,209
in one of my favorite places,
Vancouver.

824
00:33:29,276 --> 00:33:33,380
And I called him up one time
and he says, "Man,

825
00:33:33,447 --> 00:33:34,615
"you know,
I just got these--

826
00:33:34,681 --> 00:33:36,216
I just burned myself,
blah, blah, blah, blah."

827
00:33:36,283 --> 00:33:37,651
I said, "Burn yourself,"
you know?

828
00:33:37,718 --> 00:33:39,887
And he's legally blind.
- Yeah.

829
00:33:39,953 --> 00:33:42,422
- I was like,
I say, "Burn yourself how?"

830
00:33:42,489 --> 00:33:43,857
"Man, I went in that kitchen,

831
00:33:43,924 --> 00:33:45,459
"thought I could cook me
some fried chicken

832
00:33:45,526 --> 00:33:47,060
"'cause I was hungry
for some fried chicken.

833
00:33:47,127 --> 00:33:49,062
And man, I spilled
that grease all over my arms,"

834
00:33:49,129 --> 00:33:50,264
and this and that.
- Oh!

835
00:33:50,330 --> 00:33:51,665
- And he's like,
seriously, you know,

836
00:33:51,732 --> 00:33:53,467
thank goodness he was okay.
- Wendi: Wow, wow.

837
00:33:53,534 --> 00:33:55,269
- And it's like, he quickly
learned that, yeah,

838
00:33:55,335 --> 00:33:57,271
I don't get to do that anymore.
- Wendi: Mm-hmm.

839
00:33:57,337 --> 00:34:00,440
- And, you know, and I've
had to let go of some things

840
00:34:00,507 --> 00:34:02,743
that I can't, I just
physically can't do it anymore.

841
00:34:02,809 --> 00:34:04,144
- Mm-hmm.

842
00:34:04,211 --> 00:34:05,946
- And some things
I can still physically do,

843
00:34:06,013 --> 00:34:08,749
I just can't do it as well,
so I just don't wanna do 'em.

844
00:34:08,815 --> 00:34:10,083
- Wendi: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

845
00:34:10,150 --> 00:34:12,286
- So, how do you fix that,
Wendi Dwyer? [Wendi laughs]

846
00:34:12,352 --> 00:34:14,321
- No, I think that's such
a good question 'cause,

847
00:34:14,388 --> 00:34:17,524
you know, you wanna stay
your vibrant, successful self,

848
00:34:17,591 --> 00:34:20,527
whatever that is, you know,
whatever you love doing,

849
00:34:20,594 --> 00:34:24,231
you wanna keep loving that,
you know, it's so much a part--

850
00:34:24,298 --> 00:34:26,967
so, if you keep giving up things
without adding things,

851
00:34:27,034 --> 00:34:29,837
you could become, you know...

852
00:34:32,539 --> 00:34:34,474
'Cause, all right,
here's the big deal,

853
00:34:34,541 --> 00:34:38,412
the big reveal or whatever.
- Dun-dun-dun-dun!

854
00:34:38,478 --> 00:34:43,483
- You know, my mental state is
as important as my blind,

855
00:34:45,652 --> 00:34:51,358
like blindness causes so much
anxiety and so much extra work

856
00:34:51,425 --> 00:34:54,061
that it's not just the fact
that I can't see.

857
00:34:54,127 --> 00:34:58,699
I mean, it's the wear
and tear on your whole being.

858
00:34:58,765 --> 00:35:01,502
And so, I try to be
very proactive about

859
00:35:01,568 --> 00:35:03,237
if I have to
give something up,

860
00:35:03,303 --> 00:35:05,439
I try to think about
what I really liked about it

861
00:35:05,506 --> 00:35:07,241
and can I do some of that
somewhere else?

862
00:35:07,307 --> 00:35:09,810
So, I was an illustrator.

863
00:35:09,877 --> 00:35:13,180
I drew and taught art
and everything.

864
00:35:13,247 --> 00:35:15,516
And so, I just thought I was,
you know,

865
00:35:15,582 --> 00:35:18,252
so visually focused person.

866
00:35:18,785 --> 00:35:22,289
And so, I'd really think about
what part of the creativity

867
00:35:22,356 --> 00:35:23,624
I could keep doing.

868
00:35:23,690 --> 00:35:25,626
So, thinking of this cartoon
is sort of like,

869
00:35:25,692 --> 00:35:27,327
creativity is also
problem solving.

870
00:35:27,394 --> 00:35:29,329
You know, what's a good way
for me to communicate

871
00:35:29,396 --> 00:35:31,765
what I need without
turning people off.

872
00:35:31,832 --> 00:35:34,168
And the cartoon was,
you know, kind of fun.

873
00:35:34,234 --> 00:35:36,904
And, you know,
having it be Lily is fun.

874
00:35:36,970 --> 00:35:40,741
So, that's a creative process
that still fed that need

875
00:35:40,807 --> 00:35:43,310
without me being
the person who drew the cartoon,

876
00:35:43,377 --> 00:35:46,079
which was really hard
because I love drawing cartoons.

877
00:35:46,146 --> 00:35:49,917
But I looked for someone
who could do it

878
00:35:49,983 --> 00:35:52,419
and I liked Fred's work,
and then I picked him.

879
00:35:52,486 --> 00:35:57,891
Fred unfortunately has, is not
going to be able to continue it

880
00:35:57,958 --> 00:36:02,229
'cause he has, he's having
a health issue.

881
00:36:02,296 --> 00:36:05,465
So, he's, I'm gonna
be switching cartoonists,

882
00:36:05,532 --> 00:36:07,034
but not because
he isn't awesome.

883
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:08,669
He's fabulous.

884
00:36:08,735 --> 00:36:10,671
And, but he did
the first 20 cartoons.

885
00:36:10,737 --> 00:36:13,073
Now we're transitioning
into another cartoonist

886
00:36:13,140 --> 00:36:14,241
who also has a disability.

887
00:36:14,308 --> 00:36:17,277
So, I really want anyone
involved in the project

888
00:36:17,344 --> 00:36:20,314
be someone who's impacted
by disability,

889
00:36:20,380 --> 00:36:23,817
because the whole idea
of the cartoon

890
00:36:23,884 --> 00:36:29,022
is to educate people to
not create additional barriers

891
00:36:30,524 --> 00:36:35,128
to the original disability
just through lack of awareness,

892
00:36:35,195 --> 00:36:36,296
really.
- Yeah.

893
00:36:36,363 --> 00:36:37,698
- I don't think people don't
care.

894
00:36:37,764 --> 00:36:40,133
I think people don't know,
you know, really.

895
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:42,202
That's what I believe.

896
00:36:42,269 --> 00:36:45,772
And I also believe all of us
with our disabilities

897
00:36:45,839 --> 00:36:48,642
are sometimes in our own heads

898
00:36:50,811 --> 00:36:53,213
thinking about what
other people are--

899
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,049
how other people are
perceiving our disability.

900
00:36:56,116 --> 00:36:58,352
I was at a bar in Sarasota

901
00:36:59,086 --> 00:37:02,489
and I was sitting next
to a man at the bar.

902
00:37:02,556 --> 00:37:05,158
I was waiting for a friend
to come, and we're talking

903
00:37:05,225 --> 00:37:07,961
and he said, "Oh,
wow, this is a--"

904
00:37:08,028 --> 00:37:11,532
He goes, "Pretty women
don't normally talk to me."

905
00:37:11,598 --> 00:37:12,933
And I go, "Well,
why wouldn't they?

906
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,201
You're so fun."

907
00:37:14,268 --> 00:37:16,203
And he goes, well, he goes,
"Well, 'cause you know."

908
00:37:16,270 --> 00:37:18,005
And then I was like,
and then he said,

909
00:37:18,071 --> 00:37:19,206
then I'm like, "No, not really."

910
00:37:19,273 --> 00:37:20,607
"'Cause, you know."

911
00:37:20,674 --> 00:37:22,910
And I had no idea what
he was talking about.

912
00:37:22,976 --> 00:37:24,912
It turned out
he didn't have an arm.

913
00:37:24,978 --> 00:37:26,079
- Murv: Mm.

914
00:37:26,146 --> 00:37:28,081
- And he was so
in his head thinking, "Oh,

915
00:37:28,148 --> 00:37:31,251
this woman's talking to me even
though I don't have an arm."

916
00:37:31,318 --> 00:37:34,154
He had lost his arm fairly
recently, and he's saying,

917
00:37:34,221 --> 00:37:36,356
"Oh my gosh,
this woman's talking to me."

918
00:37:36,423 --> 00:37:40,527
And then I said,
"You know I'm blind, right?"

919
00:37:40,594 --> 00:37:41,862
And then the bartender said,

920
00:37:41,929 --> 00:37:44,364
"Can I tell the story over
and over again?

921
00:37:44,431 --> 00:37:46,300
A blind woman
walked into a bar..." [laughs]

922
00:37:46,366 --> 00:37:48,035
- Oh, my goodness.

923
00:37:48,335 --> 00:37:49,903
- And so, it was really funny.

924
00:37:49,970 --> 00:37:51,772
So, the guy thought
it was so funny.

925
00:37:51,839 --> 00:37:53,974
He goes, "Here the whole time
you were talking to me,

926
00:37:54,041 --> 00:37:56,376
"I was thinking, oh, I wonder
if she thinks about my arm.

927
00:37:56,443 --> 00:37:58,145
"And you didn't really
think about my arm

928
00:37:58,212 --> 00:38:00,347
'cause you couldn't
even see me," you know?

929
00:38:00,414 --> 00:38:04,618
So, I just thought that was
such a good picture of us,

930
00:38:04,685 --> 00:38:06,453
you know, with disabilities.

931
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,422
- It is, and I think
it's like...

932
00:38:08,488 --> 00:38:10,991
You know, if, first of all,
what are the chances

933
00:38:11,058 --> 00:38:13,927
you're gonna encounter
a blind person.

934
00:38:13,994 --> 00:38:18,866
- Pretty likely 'cause
it's only 10% of us are out.

935
00:38:18,932 --> 00:38:21,668
There's 10 times more of me
than you would think.

936
00:38:21,735 --> 00:38:23,003
But, okay.
- That's a small,

937
00:38:23,070 --> 00:38:25,906
I guess my point is,
is that more than likely

938
00:38:25,973 --> 00:38:27,708
he's used to
encountering people that--

939
00:38:27,774 --> 00:38:29,209
- They're fully sighted.
- Murv: Yes.

940
00:38:29,276 --> 00:38:32,079
- And especially someone showing
up at a bar alone, right?

941
00:38:32,145 --> 00:38:33,680
- And that's what
they're gonna focus on

942
00:38:33,747 --> 00:38:36,250
'cause that's how people
sometimes see us.

943
00:38:36,316 --> 00:38:37,551
- Mm-hmm.

944
00:38:37,618 --> 00:38:39,353
- You know, and the thing
that stands out,

945
00:38:39,419 --> 00:38:40,554
you know,
I've talked about it

946
00:38:40,621 --> 00:38:43,457
in terms of race for me,
you know?

947
00:38:45,192 --> 00:38:46,860
Thank goodness
I've lived a number of places.

948
00:38:46,927 --> 00:38:50,163
I just don't see that
in that way.

949
00:38:50,230 --> 00:38:52,900
You know,
my friends are not,

950
00:38:54,067 --> 00:38:55,335
"Oh, that's my Black friend Tony

951
00:38:55,402 --> 00:38:57,337
"or my white friend John
or whatever,

952
00:38:57,404 --> 00:39:00,040
my Asian friend Lou
and my blind friend Wendi."

953
00:39:00,107 --> 00:39:04,545
It's like, man, it doesn't
work that way for me.

954
00:39:04,611 --> 00:39:08,182
But some people do,
I guess, put those,

955
00:39:08,949 --> 00:39:10,684
they can put those labels on us,
I guess.

956
00:39:10,751 --> 00:39:12,019
- Mm-hmm.

957
00:39:12,085 --> 00:39:14,988
And then, people start to think
about what you can't do

958
00:39:15,055 --> 00:39:17,424
and if you should be invited
to this or that.

959
00:39:17,491 --> 00:39:20,761
Somebody was having
a game night and said,

960
00:39:20,827 --> 00:39:22,129
"Well, I would have invited you,

961
00:39:22,196 --> 00:39:26,200
but I didn't know
if you could play games."

962
00:39:26,266 --> 00:39:27,434
And I'm like--

963
00:39:27,501 --> 00:39:29,236
- No, people are quick
to make assumptions

964
00:39:29,303 --> 00:39:31,238
about what they think
you can and can't do.

965
00:39:31,305 --> 00:39:33,640
And I try to correct that pretty
quickly because it's like,

966
00:39:33,707 --> 00:39:35,676
if I can't do it,
I'm gonna let you know.

967
00:39:35,742 --> 00:39:37,177
- Mm-hmm.

968
00:39:37,244 --> 00:39:39,179
And I think that's
the right way to do it.

969
00:39:39,246 --> 00:39:40,547
Invite everybody,

970
00:39:40,614 --> 00:39:42,883
and if the person needs
something,

971
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:45,219
they'll tell you, you know?

972
00:39:45,285 --> 00:39:47,421
If they need someone
to pick them up on the way

973
00:39:47,487 --> 00:39:48,822
or they need, you know,

974
00:39:48,889 --> 00:39:50,824
so I think that's
the right way to do it

975
00:39:50,891 --> 00:39:55,162
is just invite everyone
and you don't have to worry,

976
00:39:55,229 --> 00:39:58,632
know that person's disability
and try to meet every need

977
00:39:58,699 --> 00:40:00,234
because that person's
going through their whole day

978
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,203
everywhere and figuring it
out for themselves.

979
00:40:03,270 --> 00:40:05,606
So, you know, they'll figure
it out at your party.

980
00:40:05,672 --> 00:40:08,575
- Yeah, I learned a lot through
my-- I had a friend, Greg Smith,

981
00:40:08,642 --> 00:40:09,743
rest in peace as well.

982
00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:12,546
Greg was a disability
rights advocate,

983
00:40:12,613 --> 00:40:16,149
had a show called <i>On a Roll</i>
and he had muscular dystrophy.

984
00:40:16,216 --> 00:40:18,151
And I used to travel with him
to different gigs

985
00:40:18,218 --> 00:40:22,422
and do things like that,
and I learned so much,

986
00:40:22,489 --> 00:40:25,592
you know, just being
around him

987
00:40:25,659 --> 00:40:27,294
in terms of how people
treat him.

988
00:40:27,361 --> 00:40:28,862
And he used to do this thing

989
00:40:28,929 --> 00:40:31,832
where I'd travel with him
on a--

990
00:40:32,866 --> 00:40:35,068
I call 'em flying machines,
but an airplane.

991
00:40:35,135 --> 00:40:36,870
And...
- Wait, how old are you?

992
00:40:36,937 --> 00:40:38,305
You call 'em flying machines?
[laughs]

993
00:40:38,372 --> 00:40:40,307
- Murv: We're not talking
about that.

994
00:40:40,374 --> 00:40:41,742
Cut that part out.

995
00:40:41,808 --> 00:40:43,644
Flying machine.

996
00:40:43,710 --> 00:40:46,180
I call it a flying machine.

997
00:40:47,214 --> 00:40:49,349
You know, and they'd have to
break his power chair down

998
00:40:49,416 --> 00:40:50,951
to pack it under the...
- Right, right.

999
00:40:51,018 --> 00:40:52,553
- ...you know,
which is the whole thing.

1000
00:40:52,619 --> 00:40:54,354
And they load him
onto the plane with this,

1001
00:40:54,421 --> 00:40:55,756
he called it the
Hannibal Lecter board.

1002
00:40:55,822 --> 00:40:56,957
It was this big, you know,

1003
00:40:57,024 --> 00:41:00,327
it was this very
dehumanizing kind of thing.

1004
00:41:00,394 --> 00:41:02,529
But they would sit there and,

1005
00:41:02,596 --> 00:41:05,098
I was his travel companion,
and they'd say,

1006
00:41:05,165 --> 00:41:07,401
"Is he gonna need that chair
broken down?" or whatever.

1007
00:41:07,467 --> 00:41:09,002
And so, the whole thing
was they,

1008
00:41:09,069 --> 00:41:11,238
you know, they would
never talk to him.

1009
00:41:11,305 --> 00:41:12,472
- Right, right.

1010
00:41:12,539 --> 00:41:14,541
- Because they look at him
as this 70-pound,

1011
00:41:14,608 --> 00:41:16,376
you know,
man in this chair.

1012
00:41:16,443 --> 00:41:19,012
And, you know, they don't think
he can communicate.

1013
00:41:19,079 --> 00:41:20,614
They don't think he can speak
for himself.

1014
00:41:20,681 --> 00:41:22,616
And so, he would say,
"Well, he has a name

1015
00:41:22,683 --> 00:41:24,017
and he can hear you."
[Wendi chuckles]

1016
00:41:24,084 --> 00:41:26,587
You know, and so, I always mock
and make fun of that,

1017
00:41:26,653 --> 00:41:28,288
when I hear people say stuff

1018
00:41:28,355 --> 00:41:30,424
when they act
like you're not present

1019
00:41:30,490 --> 00:41:31,592
and you're literally--

1020
00:41:31,658 --> 00:41:34,194
- Yeah, that's kind of
that whole,

1021
00:41:34,261 --> 00:41:36,496
how you see people
with disabilities is

1022
00:41:36,563 --> 00:41:38,765
how you're gonna see yourself
when you have a disability.

1023
00:41:38,832 --> 00:41:40,367
You know,
I had this awakening one night

1024
00:41:40,434 --> 00:41:41,635
and I wrote it down,

1025
00:41:41,702 --> 00:41:43,837
and I think it might be my quote
unless somebody else

1026
00:41:43,904 --> 00:41:46,473
already said that,
but I really believe it.

1027
00:41:46,540 --> 00:41:50,344
Because if you think about how
you would wanna be treated,

1028
00:41:50,410 --> 00:41:53,547
you would never
not talk to the person.

1029
00:41:53,614 --> 00:41:55,716
Like, if you really understood
at some point

1030
00:41:55,782 --> 00:41:56,950
I'm going to have a disability

1031
00:41:57,017 --> 00:41:58,952
and I want people to respect me
and include me,

1032
00:41:59,019 --> 00:42:03,257
then I'm never not going
to speak to the person

1033
00:42:04,558 --> 00:42:07,494
the way I would want
to be spoken to

1034
00:42:07,561 --> 00:42:08,695
for the rest of my life.

1035
00:42:08,762 --> 00:42:11,098
And I had a neighbor who--

1036
00:42:12,199 --> 00:42:16,537
they were the chair
of a big gala, a huge gala.

1037
00:42:16,603 --> 00:42:21,508
And the gala was for a, it was
a adult living situation

1038
00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:25,312
for people with
developmental disabilities.

1039
00:42:25,379 --> 00:42:28,815
And this couple, they had just
been invited the year before

1040
00:42:28,882 --> 00:42:29,983
and they were very wealthy.

1041
00:42:30,050 --> 00:42:31,785
So, then they got voted
to be the chairs,

1042
00:42:31,852 --> 00:42:34,855
and they hadn't really gotten
any great education

1043
00:42:34,922 --> 00:42:38,492
about disability awareness
at all.

1044
00:42:38,559 --> 00:42:41,728
And the man,
you know, he's in his tuxedo

1045
00:42:41,795 --> 00:42:43,463
and he's speaking
about these--

1046
00:42:43,530 --> 00:42:45,699
"Can you imagine if--"

1047
00:42:45,766 --> 00:42:48,669
Like kind of a
degradating way.

1048
00:42:49,069 --> 00:42:53,307
And one of the parents
of a resident just got up

1049
00:42:55,642 --> 00:42:58,111
and just said,
"This is bull####."

1050
00:42:58,178 --> 00:43:00,047
Like you should not be,

1051
00:43:00,113 --> 00:43:03,517
like, this is so--
you do not understand.

1052
00:43:03,584 --> 00:43:05,819
And they were just so upset
by the language

1053
00:43:05,886 --> 00:43:07,888
and the attitudes
towards the person

1054
00:43:07,955 --> 00:43:11,758
that they love who was
experiencing this disability.

1055
00:43:11,825 --> 00:43:13,760
And the couple
that was the chair thought,

1056
00:43:13,827 --> 00:43:14,928
"Oh, how ungrateful.

1057
00:43:14,995 --> 00:43:17,531
"We're doing this
for their grown child,

1058
00:43:17,598 --> 00:43:19,266
and this is how
they treat us?"

1059
00:43:19,333 --> 00:43:22,669
Well, it was only seven
or eight years later

1060
00:43:22,736 --> 00:43:24,371
that that person had ALS.

1061
00:43:24,438 --> 00:43:26,240
That person in the tuxedo

1062
00:43:26,306 --> 00:43:30,777
who was the grand person
of this black tie event,

1063
00:43:32,312 --> 00:43:34,481
who had used poor language
and attitudes

1064
00:43:34,548 --> 00:43:37,417
and definitely did not see
the people

1065
00:43:37,484 --> 00:43:40,220
that they were raising
the money for as equals,

1066
00:43:40,287 --> 00:43:43,457
he was completely disabled
by ALS.

1067
00:43:43,524 --> 00:43:45,058
And I remember thinking,

1068
00:43:45,125 --> 00:43:47,427
wow, I wonder how he sees
himself, 'cause I know

1069
00:43:47,494 --> 00:43:49,630
how he saw people then.

1070
00:43:50,297 --> 00:43:55,002
I heard his language and
I know he really didn't get it.

1071
00:43:55,068 --> 00:43:56,270
And then, I thought, oh, well,

1072
00:43:56,336 --> 00:43:58,705
his disability is probably
that much harder on him

1073
00:43:58,772 --> 00:44:01,475
because that's how he sees
people

1074
00:44:01,542 --> 00:44:02,976
with disabilities.
- Yeah.

1075
00:44:03,043 --> 00:44:07,080
- And so, I would say
that for all of us, you know,

1076
00:44:07,147 --> 00:44:10,317
and I didn't understand how
different people were treated

1077
00:44:10,384 --> 00:44:12,719
when you use a wheelchair 'til
I needed to use a wheelchair

1078
00:44:12,786 --> 00:44:14,221
after I was hit by the truck.

1079
00:44:14,288 --> 00:44:18,125
And that gave me
more, you know, more awareness.

1080
00:44:18,192 --> 00:44:22,095
But anyway, that's,
that's it, is, you know,

1081
00:44:22,162 --> 00:44:23,764
basically it's for us, you know,

1082
00:44:23,830 --> 00:44:26,900
when we're not ableist or we're
more aware of what people need,

1083
00:44:26,967 --> 00:44:28,635
it's really for us

1084
00:44:29,770 --> 00:44:31,538
and how we're gonna
treat ourselves

1085
00:44:31,605 --> 00:44:33,774
as we get older
or have disabilities.

1086
00:44:33,841 --> 00:44:36,410
And, but, you know, I, yeah.

1087
00:44:38,645 --> 00:44:41,582
I know I wish I had done
things better all the way along,

1088
00:44:41,648 --> 00:44:42,783
but I think you and I,

1089
00:44:42,850 --> 00:44:44,051
we've always had friends
with disabilities

1090
00:44:44,117 --> 00:44:45,219
that we loved and respected.

1091
00:44:45,285 --> 00:44:48,856
So, we've been
pretty fortunate that way.

1092
00:44:48,922 --> 00:44:50,457
And--
- Yeah, and when you see it,

1093
00:44:50,524 --> 00:44:52,259
it's just a natural part
of your life basically.

1094
00:44:52,326 --> 00:44:53,660
- Right, so I don't think it--

1095
00:44:53,727 --> 00:44:55,863
it didn't really
define me to go,

1096
00:44:55,929 --> 00:44:59,700
not to go blind,
but to become more blind.

1097
00:44:59,766 --> 00:45:01,435
It didn't really define me

1098
00:45:01,502 --> 00:45:04,304
because I saw so many great
people living with disabilities.

1099
00:45:04,371 --> 00:45:05,472
- Murv: Yeah.

1100
00:45:05,539 --> 00:45:07,674
- I mean, we had those examples,
so we were lucky.

1101
00:45:07,741 --> 00:45:08,909
- Yeah.

1102
00:45:08,976 --> 00:45:10,177
I'm gonna wrap this up here,

1103
00:45:10,244 --> 00:45:13,347
but we already talked
a little bit about, you know,

1104
00:45:13,413 --> 00:45:16,817
the state and there needs to be
some mass improvements

1105
00:45:16,884 --> 00:45:18,685
in terms of accessibility
around here.

1106
00:45:18,752 --> 00:45:20,020
- Yeah.

1107
00:45:20,087 --> 00:45:22,422
- But if you could plop
yourself any place in the world,

1108
00:45:22,489 --> 00:45:24,858
any place in these United States
that's doing it right,

1109
00:45:24,925 --> 00:45:28,762
that's set up a, you know,
a community that,

1110
00:45:28,829 --> 00:45:31,532
you know, makes life easier
for people with disabilities,

1111
00:45:31,598 --> 00:45:33,734
where would you put yourself
and what does that look like?

1112
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:35,269
- God, I love that question.

1113
00:45:35,335 --> 00:45:38,272
For me, it would be
St. Petersburg, Florida.

1114
00:45:38,338 --> 00:45:39,439
- [gasps] Florida?

1115
00:45:39,506 --> 00:45:44,077
- Yeah, [laughs]
St. Petersburg, Florida by far,

1116
00:45:44,878 --> 00:45:48,448
their paratransit program--
so, I...

1117
00:45:48,982 --> 00:45:51,118
- And help people out,
paratransit just means...

1118
00:45:51,185 --> 00:45:55,589
- That's for anybody who can't
drive, who has a disability.

1119
00:45:55,656 --> 00:45:59,993
So, it's-- and their program is
so accessible,

1120
00:46:01,161 --> 00:46:02,896
the technology of it
is accessible,

1121
00:46:02,963 --> 00:46:04,198
the system's accessible.

1122
00:46:04,264 --> 00:46:07,668
It's a really positive
experience.

1123
00:46:07,734 --> 00:46:09,903
I have blind friends
that I visit down there

1124
00:46:09,970 --> 00:46:12,439
and it's just dreamy to me,
their freedom.

1125
00:46:12,506 --> 00:46:14,541
They have so many
more opportunities

1126
00:46:14,608 --> 00:46:16,810
than I have here
in Madison, Wisconsin,

1127
00:46:16,877 --> 00:46:21,114
just because
their paratransit is flexible.

1128
00:46:21,815 --> 00:46:24,017
It works, it's accessible.

1129
00:46:24,084 --> 00:46:25,686
It's just lovely.

1130
00:46:25,752 --> 00:46:27,554
Ours is fairly old.

1131
00:46:29,189 --> 00:46:30,524
- Yeah.

1132
00:46:30,591 --> 00:46:32,759
And what's it gonna take
for Wisconsin to get there,

1133
00:46:32,826 --> 00:46:37,264
and who's leading that fight as
far as the advocacy part of it?

1134
00:46:37,331 --> 00:46:39,600
- I'm one of 'em,
you know, I'm in there.

1135
00:46:39,666 --> 00:46:42,736
You know, I've been,
you know, bringing information.

1136
00:46:42,803 --> 00:46:44,171
I'm a disability rights
commissioner.

1137
00:46:44,238 --> 00:46:45,839
The commission is working hard.

1138
00:46:45,906 --> 00:46:47,007
The disability rights
commission--

1139
00:46:47,074 --> 00:46:49,209
- But I guess I'm asking is
is that, you know,

1140
00:46:49,276 --> 00:46:50,410
is that on the state level?

1141
00:46:50,477 --> 00:46:51,578
Is that community,

1142
00:46:51,645 --> 00:46:52,880
community groups?
- Oh, no.

1143
00:46:52,946 --> 00:46:54,481
Wisconsin Council of the Blind
and Visually Impaired.

1144
00:46:54,548 --> 00:46:57,150
Denise Jess is amazing
and tireless.

1145
00:46:57,217 --> 00:47:00,254
I mean, there's so many people.

1146
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:01,588
And it's really not,

1147
00:47:01,655 --> 00:47:03,190
I mean, we're spending
a lot of money,

1148
00:47:03,257 --> 00:47:04,791
so it's not that
it would cost money,

1149
00:47:04,858 --> 00:47:05,993
more money to do it better.

1150
00:47:06,059 --> 00:47:09,363
It'd probably cost less money
to do it better.

1151
00:47:09,429 --> 00:47:12,566
We have some
pretty silly things.

1152
00:47:13,233 --> 00:47:15,135
Like one of them was,

1153
00:47:15,536 --> 00:47:21,208
this technology that we bought
when we got federal money,

1154
00:47:21,275 --> 00:47:22,543
we never implemented it.

1155
00:47:22,609 --> 00:47:24,545
Now it's four years old
and we're rolling it out.

1156
00:47:24,611 --> 00:47:26,280
There's so much better
technology

1157
00:47:26,346 --> 00:47:27,648
in the last four years,

1158
00:47:27,714 --> 00:47:30,551
but we have to use what we
bought with the federal funds.

1159
00:47:30,617 --> 00:47:31,885
So, that means those of us

1160
00:47:31,952 --> 00:47:35,022
who need to use the paratransit
are kind of stuck with a,

1161
00:47:35,088 --> 00:47:37,858
an old thing that's being
rolled out as a new thing.

1162
00:47:37,925 --> 00:47:40,694
I mean, it's just bureaucracy,
poor decisions,

1163
00:47:40,761 --> 00:47:43,530
people really maybe in
decision-making positions

1164
00:47:43,597 --> 00:47:45,732
that really don't care,
that don't believe

1165
00:47:45,799 --> 00:47:49,570
that they will ever
need to use paratransit.

1166
00:47:49,636 --> 00:47:55,309
So, yeah, I think it impacts--
our paratransit in Dane County

1167
00:47:57,110 --> 00:47:59,713
only goes as far
as where buses go.

1168
00:47:59,780 --> 00:48:00,914
So, if you were in Stoughton,

1169
00:48:00,981 --> 00:48:02,883
had a stroke this weekend
and couldn't see,

1170
00:48:02,950 --> 00:48:05,219
good luck working in Madison

1171
00:48:05,285 --> 00:48:07,654
because it would cost
you so much money

1172
00:48:07,721 --> 00:48:11,458
to take an Uber from Madison,
you know, to your job and back.

1173
00:48:11,525 --> 00:48:13,727
And people just don't expect
these things to happen.

1174
00:48:13,794 --> 00:48:15,395
And then when they do,
they think,

1175
00:48:15,462 --> 00:48:17,464
"Wow, I thought we were
so much better than this."

1176
00:48:17,531 --> 00:48:18,732
And that's--

1177
00:48:18,799 --> 00:48:21,568
if I ever ran for anything,
that would be my slogan.

1178
00:48:21,635 --> 00:48:23,370
"We thought we were
so much better than this."

1179
00:48:23,437 --> 00:48:24,972
- Mm, I love that.
- You know?

1180
00:48:25,038 --> 00:48:27,274
So, I think that's just
over and over again,

1181
00:48:27,341 --> 00:48:29,142
"We're Madison,
we're better than this, right?"

1182
00:48:29,209 --> 00:48:30,978
No, we're not.

1183
00:48:31,044 --> 00:48:34,181
And so, yeah,
I think there's a lot of things.

1184
00:48:34,248 --> 00:48:38,185
But I would say
St. Petersburg, Florida,

1185
00:48:38,252 --> 00:48:39,720
in a lot of ways.

1186
00:48:39,786 --> 00:48:43,257
It is just so many
good decisions have been made

1187
00:48:43,323 --> 00:48:46,426
by so many good people
who actually use the systems,

1188
00:48:46,493 --> 00:48:47,995
and I think that's
really important.

1189
00:48:48,061 --> 00:48:49,796
So, yeah, that's
where I would go.

1190
00:48:49,863 --> 00:48:53,433
And I go periodically
and I'm so happy there,

1191
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:55,435
and then I come back here
and I love Madison,

1192
00:48:55,502 --> 00:48:58,405
and I just wanna make it better
than it is.

1193
00:48:58,472 --> 00:49:00,807
- Look who's showing up
to tell us to wrap it up.

1194
00:49:00,874 --> 00:49:03,477
- [laughs]
Are you Murv's dog now?

1195
00:49:03,544 --> 00:49:04,645
Are you Murv's dog?

1196
00:49:04,711 --> 00:49:06,280
- I appreciate it,
look at you.

1197
00:49:06,346 --> 00:49:09,216
She's like, "Oh, yeah,
I like that!"

1198
00:49:09,283 --> 00:49:11,818
I appreciate you and Lily
opening up your home,

1199
00:49:11,885 --> 00:49:13,620
and I appreciate you being
on the front line.

1200
00:49:13,687 --> 00:49:15,589
And, you know what?

1201
00:49:15,656 --> 00:49:17,424
I'll be there with you
at some point.

1202
00:49:17,491 --> 00:49:19,359
- Yeah, well,
tell me what you need.

1203
00:49:19,426 --> 00:49:21,228
And then in the meantime,

1204
00:49:21,295 --> 00:49:23,964
I'll tell people to go to
advocacyisabitch.com.

1205
00:49:24,031 --> 00:49:27,134
Check out our video
on the home page.

1206
00:49:27,201 --> 00:49:29,102
That beautiful video's
made by John Urban.

1207
00:49:29,169 --> 00:49:31,438
- What is going on right now?
- Lily?

1208
00:49:31,505 --> 00:49:33,640
She just loves you.
- I love her.

1209
00:49:33,707 --> 00:49:35,242
- So, this is when
she's not working.

1210
00:49:35,309 --> 00:49:36,643
This is what she's like.

1211
00:49:36,710 --> 00:49:39,046
You're not gonna love your pants
later on, just so you know.

1212
00:49:39,112 --> 00:49:40,214
That's okay.
- Yeah, okay.

1213
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:41,615
- Wendi, I appreciate
you stopping by.

1214
00:49:41,682 --> 00:49:42,983
- Well, actually,
you stopped by.

1215
00:49:43,050 --> 00:49:44,685
I live here.

1216
00:49:44,751 --> 00:49:46,553
- You know what,
well played, my friend.

1217
00:49:46,620 --> 00:49:48,388
- I appreciate <i>you</i> stopping by.

1218
00:49:48,455 --> 00:49:50,190
Thank you.
- It's really good to see you.

1219
00:49:50,257 --> 00:49:51,358
Appreciate you so much.

1220
00:49:51,425 --> 00:49:52,960
- Well, stop by often,
so thank you.

1221
00:49:53,026 --> 00:49:55,596
- Murv: Okay.
- Thanks a lot.