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[percussive music]
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- Murv Seymour: Noble Wray,
welcome to In Focus.
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- Noble Wray: Thank you
very much.
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Glad to be here.
- I got to tell you,
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you and I have not seen
each other
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since we did the Wisconsin
in Black and White project.
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Thank you for your service
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on that.
- Oh, thank you.
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It was really good.
- Yeah, and for a lot of folks
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that don't know,you're a former
police chief.
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You've been in law enforcement
for...
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- Now 40 years.
- Murv: 40 years?
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- Mm-hmm.
- Wow.
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And give me a little snapshot
of what
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made you go
into law enforcement.
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What was it about law
enforcement that made you say,
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"I'd like to commit my life
to that?"
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- Well,
I originally started off
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into looking at being an
attorney, going into politics.
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But...
- That was too much work, huh?
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- It was too much--
yeah, too much work.
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And, you know, at UW-Milwaukee,
where I was going,
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they had a really good
criminal justice program.
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And I just got really into,
you know,
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protection, justice,
and understanding what
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those things meant.
- Yeah.
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- Noble: And just connected
with it.
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- Yeah, and so, you knew
you wanted to climb that ladder
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to get to the chief mode
of things, or...?
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- Well, about two years in
after being a police officer,
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said if I leave
this profession,
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I want to leave it at
a minimum as a mid-manager,
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and that in most departments
is a lieutenant or above.
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- Yeah.
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I love asking people
things like,
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if you had a mission statement
for,
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you know, the kind of work
and the kind of philosophy
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you carry with yourself
as you do your profession,
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what would that be for you,
you think?
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- My mission statement would be
that we are here,
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here for people, and
criminal justice and humanity
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are one and the same,
and how do we make that work?
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- Yeah, and you've been retired
now for how long?
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- I've been retired now
for about 12, 13 years.
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- But I get the impression
you work just as much as you did
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when you were working.
- Yes.
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- Murv: Why do you stay
involved?
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- I stay involved because
it's part of my belief system.
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It's-- I still believe
that I can have an impact
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on helping people see
what police officers see.
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I had a unique perspective,
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not only a unique perspective
as a police officer,
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but a unique perspective
as an African American male.
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And also, I've been
very close to the community,
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so bridging those two
has been really,
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really important in my life
to ensure that this continues.
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- Yeah, and one of the reasons
I think
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you and I are sitting here now
is because I bumped into you
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a few weeks ago
when they opened up the center.
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- The center.
- And just to give some context,
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we're at the Black Business Hub
here on Madison's south side.
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And I know you probably
have done all kinds of things
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in this building.
- Absolutely.
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On the board, also as
another member of another board,
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the Rennebohm Foundation.
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We gave funds
for this building.
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So, this is important.
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I also worked as head
of the Urban League
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as interim CEO
and vice president.
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- Yeah, you don't sound retired
to me, man.
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- No, no.
[both laugh]
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- But one of the things
that when we were talking,
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you were telling me about
you have a fellowship
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with the fellowship
of law enforcement people.
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And I found it
really interesting
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when you talked a little bit
about kind of what you guys do
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and what the mission
of that organization is.
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Why don't you tell us
a little bit about that?
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- Yeah, there's a fellowship
that started two years ago,
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and it was-- it involved retired
law enforcement executives
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as well as people
from the university community,
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as well as current
law enforcement professionals.
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And what we wanted to do
was to look ahead,
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see what policing was
going to be in 2030 and 2050,
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'cause there are a number
of changes taking place.
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One of the areas
that we started to focus in on
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was the area of technology,
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given that it has had
such a major impact in our lives
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in so many different ways,
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but specifically
in law enforcement.
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- So, when we say technology,
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are we speaking specifically
to, like, AI technology?
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- AI technology.
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It is impacting every aspect
of policing,
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everything down to how
police reports are done,
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how surveillance is done,
things like body-worn cameras,
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facial recognition,
to something as simple
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as if you've got
this information,
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how do you go to court?
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How do you explain
this information in court?
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Do you have
the subject matter experts?
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Where do you store it?
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Who has access to it?
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So, this is
kind of a quiet revolution
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that we feel that needs to be
discussed more to make sure
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that the laws and justice are
keeping up with the technology.
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- And mission-wise, what would
you say the mission here is?
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Is it just simply
to educate people?
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- Our mission is to stimulate
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or be the catalyst
for communities, both state,
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federal, and local, to start
thinking about this in a way
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where they can kind of shape
how balancing, on one side,
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public safety
and on the other side privacy,
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because there are
some major privacy concerns,
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major justice concerns.
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So, our mission was
to give guidance,
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start the conversation
on guidance.
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What does it look like
when you have technology
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and maintaining trust
with the community?
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What does it look like when
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you have license plate readers,
for example,
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and do you use
that technology for everyone?
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Do you use it on certain people?
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Do you predict
through analysis and data
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where that's gonna go?
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Because there's always an impact
to anytime we do something.
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And we also wanted to highlight
the fact that even though
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a lot of this technology
is not only
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being used in policing,
but anytime the government,
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anytime the government uses
this type of information,
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there are constitutional
principles that must be upheld,
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one of which that we'll probably
talk about more
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and more is the impact
on the Fourth Amendment.
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- Yeah,
and the Fourth Amendment,
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that deals with--
help me out here--
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- Unreasonable searches.
- That's right, searching.
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And when I think about,
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you know,
the evolution of technology,
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and especially for a person
like yourself
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who spent 40 years
in this industry,
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it brings back, you know,
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I think about the things that,
you know,
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that I've seen just
in my lifetime, your lifetime.
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I just kind of took
some notes here.
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I've seen things
on cuffing techniques.
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I've seen things on, you know,
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bulletproof vests changing,
body cameras,
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license plate readers,
facial recognition systems.
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What stands out to you
in terms of...
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- Well, when I started, things
were a lot different back then.
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I mean, most police officers
were using revolvers.
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You had to take your time
and put the round in the gun.
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- Like a musket?
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Are you saying like a--
- [laughs] Like a musket.
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You know, bulletproof vests
were just coming into their own.
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Now what you see is,
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you see vests
that are worn on the exterior
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with all kinds
of different things on it
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from lights to maybe
a second handgun
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to extra rounds
and things like that.
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We didn't even have
trauma plates,
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and a trauma plate was
really important.
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- What's a trauma plate?
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- A trauma plate
is what is on a bulletproof vest
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that when the round hits
the bulletproof vest,
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that it reduces the damage
to the heart
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because that's a major impact.
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We didn't even have
those kind of things.
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Of course, we didn't have
the great uniforms,
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we were wearing polyester.
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Everyone had to wear, you know,
the three-- the police cap.
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There were no baseball caps.
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That was not allowed.
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And, so it was-- it almost--
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it's almost laughable now
what we have available to us...
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- Yeah.
- ...Than what we do right now.
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- Yeah,
and those tools are really,
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every time something comes out,
I guess,
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the whole idea is
that it makes law enforcement
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and enforcing the laws easier?
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Is that the whole...
- The tools should make
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communities safer,
law enforcement easier.
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But it still comes down
to even back then,
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the tool that you used the most
was a pad of paper
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and a pencil to get information.
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The tool that you used the most
was talking
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and engaging with citizens.
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That is transcendent.
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That will never change.
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- I was gonna say,
and do you think we've moved
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too far away from that
because of technology?
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- I think the risk is there,
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and what I'm hoping is
that we're starting
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to create awareness on that
we don't lose those things,
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things like building trust
with the community,
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things like, you know,
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are we operating in a biased
and nontransparent manner?
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Are we listening to people
when there are complaints?
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Those are some of the things
that I hope that we don't lose:
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the empathy for people.
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When you have, like, technology,
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one of the things
that you lose at times
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with technology is that
it is an objective standard.
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You know, you see the video,
you see DNA,
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you see, you know,
you see things that are there
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and-- but in policing,
subjectivity, discretion,
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humility, empathy, and trust,
those are the hallmarks
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that are in behind good policing
in America.
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- So, then when I-- You think
about some of the things
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that you see out there now,
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especially with all
the social media things
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that are out there,
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and you'll see things that
are very easily manipulated,
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and almost to the point
where you look at something
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and you have to ask yourself,
"Is that real?"
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It seems like there needs to be
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and should be some sort of
a balance between,
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you know,
the technology and the person
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that's managing that technology.
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How do you see that?
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- This is something
that I think communities,
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law enforcement need
to get together on,
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as well as the manufacturers
of technology.
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You can have video that will
give a false negative.
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Still we have not resolved
this idea of women of color
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and small children showing
a pretty good high percentage
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of false positives
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when we're looking
at surveillance video
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or facial recognition.
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So, those are some things
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that we should always
be concerned about.
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- What kind of thing
would cause something
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like that to be happening,
you think?
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- It is-- It is--
It is-- It is the technology.
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And when you talk to the experts
in the field,
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the ones that are not only
experts in the field,
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but the ones
that are producing this,
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they have not resolved that.
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However, one of the things
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that you always have to be
mindful of
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is that even the manufacturers,
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all human beings
have implicit biases.
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So, sometimes those implicit
biases can come through,
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through the manufacturer's work.
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Sometimes implicit biases
can come through
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through how the technology
is deployed.
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- What's your simple way
of how you would describe
248
00:11:40,601 --> 00:11:42,069
what an implicit bias is?
249
00:11:42,135 --> 00:11:43,971
'Cause I think some people
don't understand
250
00:11:44,037 --> 00:11:48,342
what that is sometimes.
- Implicit bias is a--
251
00:11:48,408 --> 00:11:50,878
is a bias that is not overt.
252
00:11:52,779 --> 00:11:55,816
It is not necessarily of animus.
253
00:11:55,883 --> 00:12:00,120
It is those things
that we do subconsciously
254
00:12:00,187 --> 00:12:02,656
that we may not be aware of,
255
00:12:03,390 --> 00:12:06,193
but it adversely affects
our behavior.
256
00:12:06,260 --> 00:12:08,962
It adversely affects
how we do things,
257
00:12:09,029 --> 00:12:12,933
how we make judgments,
and how we perceive things.
258
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,202
So, that's how it impacts
policing.
259
00:12:15,269 --> 00:12:16,603
- Like a prejudgment
kind of thing?
260
00:12:16,670 --> 00:12:17,971
- It's a prejudgment.
261
00:12:18,038 --> 00:12:21,708
It's a prejudge
of what we do and what we see.
262
00:12:21,775 --> 00:12:23,544
- That person is overweight,
so that person likes
263
00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:24,945
to eat a lot...
- Noble: Absolutely.
264
00:12:25,012 --> 00:12:26,446
- And that's not true.
- Absolutely.
265
00:12:26,513 --> 00:12:30,651
And the 800-pound gorilla
in the United States
266
00:12:30,717 --> 00:12:33,854
is implicit bias
based upon race.
267
00:12:34,888 --> 00:12:36,156
That's the 800-pound gorilla.
268
00:12:36,223 --> 00:12:38,025
That's what everyone focuses on.
269
00:12:38,091 --> 00:12:42,362
But as you just mentioned,
weight, age...
270
00:12:42,429 --> 00:12:43,530
- Height.
- Noble: ...language,
271
00:12:43,597 --> 00:12:44,898
height, all of those things...
272
00:12:44,965 --> 00:12:47,067
- Murv: Ethnicity.
- ...we prejudge.
273
00:12:47,134 --> 00:12:49,703
And the one that we prejudge
274
00:12:50,237 --> 00:12:52,973
that we need
to really get a handle on,
275
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,642
and those are
the socioeconomic factors.
276
00:12:55,709 --> 00:12:58,378
Sometimes they cut
across all of those categories.
277
00:12:58,445 --> 00:13:02,216
When we see someone that is
homeless, looks destitute,
278
00:13:02,282 --> 00:13:06,787
we, in the back of our minds,
develop a detachment.
279
00:13:06,854 --> 00:13:08,522
There are some telltale signs,
280
00:13:08,589 --> 00:13:11,291
some watch-outs
for implicit bias.
281
00:13:11,358 --> 00:13:15,162
One is if you start
to see a group of people
282
00:13:15,896 --> 00:13:19,900
and thinking all of them
do something a certain way
283
00:13:19,967 --> 00:13:22,102
or everyone does it this way,
284
00:13:22,169 --> 00:13:25,472
those are things that
you may wanna do a self check
285
00:13:25,539 --> 00:13:27,508
because every human being
is different.
286
00:13:27,574 --> 00:13:30,143
And when you start
to include everyone
287
00:13:30,210 --> 00:13:32,412
and saying everyone does it
a certain way,
288
00:13:32,479 --> 00:13:34,581
that's when you become
susceptible
289
00:13:34,648 --> 00:13:37,384
to treating people differently
and prejudging.
290
00:13:37,451 --> 00:13:38,685
- It sounds dangerous
to policing.
291
00:13:38,752 --> 00:13:40,988
Is it?
- It is dangerous.
292
00:13:41,355 --> 00:13:44,992
And it is dangerous
because you can prejudge.
293
00:13:45,058 --> 00:13:49,863
I remember, as a rookie cop,
prejudging a situation
294
00:13:50,731 --> 00:13:54,168
where, because it was
a female involved,
295
00:13:54,234 --> 00:13:57,471
I assumed
that she did not have a weapon,
296
00:13:57,538 --> 00:13:59,573
that she was not a threat.
297
00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:04,411
But I have run into encounters
where a female was involved
298
00:14:04,478 --> 00:14:05,913
and they had a weapon,
299
00:14:05,979 --> 00:14:08,715
and they were as just as much
of a threat.
300
00:14:08,782 --> 00:14:10,717
But I was prejudging
the situation
301
00:14:10,784 --> 00:14:12,886
and that placed me at danger.
302
00:14:12,953 --> 00:14:15,722
You have to evaluate
the situation
303
00:14:15,789 --> 00:14:17,391
based upon what you have.
304
00:14:17,457 --> 00:14:20,327
That is called
individualized suspicion
305
00:14:20,394 --> 00:14:24,965
and making sure that you're
calculating place, size, manner,
306
00:14:25,032 --> 00:14:26,533
how the person deports himself,
307
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,403
how they're looking at you,
and always more importantly,
308
00:14:29,469 --> 00:14:32,105
where their hands are.
- Yeah.
309
00:14:32,172 --> 00:14:36,210
And when we talk about
implicit bias in humans,
310
00:14:36,276 --> 00:14:38,345
is there such a thing
when it comes to technology,
311
00:14:38,412 --> 00:14:42,382
especially AI technology,
and how it's being facilitated?
312
00:14:42,449 --> 00:14:44,818
- Yes,
in a number of different ways.
313
00:14:44,885 --> 00:14:48,789
One, implicit bias can come
through in how it's deployed.
314
00:14:48,856 --> 00:14:50,390
Let me give you an example.
315
00:14:50,457 --> 00:14:53,360
If I start off and I deploy,
say,
316
00:14:55,829 --> 00:15:00,501
you know, cameras in an area
that are license plate readers,
317
00:15:00,567 --> 00:15:03,837
and I deploy that based upon,
I've got information
318
00:15:03,904 --> 00:15:06,106
that there's a higher incidence
319
00:15:06,173 --> 00:15:08,809
of people violating
certain things.
320
00:15:08,876 --> 00:15:12,012
That may be true
at the beginning, okay?
321
00:15:12,079 --> 00:15:14,181
But if I don't come back
and check that,
322
00:15:14,248 --> 00:15:17,951
that camera can start to produce
a self-fulfilling prophecy,
323
00:15:18,018 --> 00:15:20,721
because what will happen is
that it will continue
324
00:15:20,787 --> 00:15:22,322
to see the same people,
325
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:25,325
and that will continue, even
though it may have changed,
326
00:15:25,392 --> 00:15:27,160
that that's not
the highest area--
327
00:15:27,227 --> 00:15:28,395
highest percentage of area.
328
00:15:28,462 --> 00:15:30,397
But because they're taking
that information,
329
00:15:30,464 --> 00:15:33,600
we're looking at it saying, "Oh,
this is the highest percentage."
330
00:15:33,667 --> 00:15:38,138
The other way that it can
become an implicit bias
331
00:15:39,339 --> 00:15:41,341
is how it is designed.
332
00:15:42,209 --> 00:15:44,344
What is it designed
to pick up on?
333
00:15:44,411 --> 00:15:47,814
What are the features
and what are the locations
334
00:15:47,881 --> 00:15:52,119
and what are the things
that it is designed to do?
335
00:15:52,186 --> 00:15:53,954
That gets a bit complicated,
and I don't know
336
00:15:54,021 --> 00:15:58,559
if I can get into it
in this particular moment.
337
00:15:58,625 --> 00:16:02,162
But again, highlighting
one of the telltale signs
338
00:16:02,229 --> 00:16:06,300
is anytime there is, like,
a predictive analysis
339
00:16:06,366 --> 00:16:08,902
that takes place
before it is deployed,
340
00:16:08,969 --> 00:16:11,905
that's when you should start
taking a closer look
341
00:16:11,972 --> 00:16:14,241
at is there a bias inherent?
342
00:16:14,308 --> 00:16:16,610
Because that's
when discretion is used,
343
00:16:16,677 --> 00:16:20,547
human discretion,
as always, opens up human error.
344
00:16:20,614 --> 00:16:23,417
- Yeah, I can't resist this,
but you and I joked earlier,
345
00:16:23,483 --> 00:16:25,953
before we kind of began this
interview about the red cup,
346
00:16:26,019 --> 00:16:29,623
and I told you a story
about me going to a Badger game
347
00:16:29,690 --> 00:16:33,160
when I first moved here,
and I had water in my red cup,
348
00:16:33,227 --> 00:16:35,128
and the police officer
made me put it out
349
00:16:35,195 --> 00:16:38,532
because they assumed that
it might be liquor in there.
350
00:16:38,599 --> 00:16:41,335
- Mm-hmm.
- Is that an implicit bias?
351
00:16:41,401 --> 00:16:42,936
The fact that I have a red cup,
352
00:16:43,003 --> 00:16:45,572
that there is something
in there other than water?
353
00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:49,109
- That implicit bias
can come in so many ways.
354
00:16:49,176 --> 00:16:50,878
And the reason--
and I'll say why--
355
00:16:50,944 --> 00:16:52,079
the reason why it's
complicated--
356
00:16:52,145 --> 00:16:53,847
One is why did they select you?
357
00:16:53,914 --> 00:16:56,884
Two,
to even ask you that question?
358
00:16:56,950 --> 00:16:58,252
Just because the cup is red,
359
00:16:58,318 --> 00:17:01,188
you know, there's no reason
to believe--
360
00:17:01,255 --> 00:17:03,690
there's not a 100% reason
to believe that.
361
00:17:03,757 --> 00:17:07,494
But when, if someone
is operating on this principle
362
00:17:07,561 --> 00:17:12,232
that any and all people
with red cups have liquor in it,
363
00:17:12,299 --> 00:17:14,034
they have prejudged
the situation.
364
00:17:14,101 --> 00:17:15,903
- That's what I felt.
- Noble: You know,
365
00:17:15,969 --> 00:17:20,641
so, that's-- that leads
to problematic policing.
366
00:17:22,709 --> 00:17:26,480
And so, what we would ask
that police officer to do
367
00:17:26,547 --> 00:17:31,518
is review what they do,
ask themselves some questions.
368
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,557
But for this person having
the red cup,
369
00:17:36,623 --> 00:17:38,859
would I have contacted them?
- Right.
370
00:17:38,926 --> 00:17:43,463
- But for believing
that every person with a red cup
371
00:17:43,530 --> 00:17:47,334
has liquor in it,
would I have done what I,
372
00:17:47,901 --> 00:17:52,506
what I did, and would I have
contacted this person?
373
00:17:52,573 --> 00:17:54,775
Those are the questions
that we can do it.
374
00:17:54,842 --> 00:17:56,009
There are good people.
375
00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:57,611
All people have implicit biases.
376
00:17:57,678 --> 00:17:58,812
They're good people.
377
00:17:58,879 --> 00:18:03,016
The thing is, we are bound
to provide service
378
00:18:04,484 --> 00:18:06,987
in a fair and impartial manner.
379
00:18:07,054 --> 00:18:09,756
So, that's the difference
between a police officer
380
00:18:09,823 --> 00:18:12,559
or someone in government
and just an everyday person,
381
00:18:12,626 --> 00:18:15,963
because I have the right
to take away your freedom
382
00:18:16,029 --> 00:18:17,598
as a police officer
383
00:18:17,664 --> 00:18:20,767
because I can use force
up to and including--
384
00:18:20,834 --> 00:18:23,370
physical force
up to and including,
385
00:18:23,437 --> 00:18:26,940
unfortunately, the potential
of taking your life.
386
00:18:27,007 --> 00:18:32,045
I have that constitutional,
that burden of being.
387
00:18:32,112 --> 00:18:33,213
And it's not a burden.
388
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,183
It is what we take
that oath for,
389
00:18:37,985 --> 00:18:42,456
to do it in a way where
I'm a guardian of democracy
390
00:18:43,090 --> 00:18:46,193
and not trying to get away
with something
391
00:18:46,260 --> 00:18:50,631
or trying to be overbearing
and tyrannical on those things.
392
00:18:50,697 --> 00:18:52,633
It's an awesome power.
393
00:18:52,699 --> 00:18:56,470
But you-- but it's only awesome
when it's used correctly.
394
00:18:56,537 --> 00:19:00,707
- Yeah, and you talked about
license plate readers,
395
00:19:00,774 --> 00:19:03,343
tools that are used to
kind of gather information.
396
00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:04,778
- Noble: Mm-hmm.
397
00:19:04,845 --> 00:19:06,780
- And during our pre-interview,
you know,
398
00:19:06,847 --> 00:19:12,085
I learned about this technique
called-- Is it flocking?
399
00:19:13,287 --> 00:19:15,789
- Flock, mm-hmm.
- Murv: Explain what that is.
400
00:19:15,856 --> 00:19:17,391
- A Flock camera is a camera
401
00:19:17,457 --> 00:19:20,594
that is deployed
in certain parts
402
00:19:20,661 --> 00:19:23,130
of a particular geographic area.
403
00:19:23,197 --> 00:19:26,466
And what it does is
it picks up information
404
00:19:26,533 --> 00:19:28,702
and it goes back
to a certain point.
405
00:19:28,769 --> 00:19:30,971
Many times, it's
a command center.
406
00:19:31,038 --> 00:19:33,740
And what it does is
it reads license plates.
407
00:19:33,807 --> 00:19:35,709
It reads information about it.
408
00:19:35,776 --> 00:19:37,644
And depending
upon the technology,
409
00:19:37,711 --> 00:19:39,413
they're starting
to be able to pick up
410
00:19:39,479 --> 00:19:43,283
and extract more information
from that.
411
00:19:44,084 --> 00:19:47,754
But, it can pick up
by reading the plate,
412
00:19:49,523 --> 00:19:51,825
does this person have
a violation?
413
00:19:51,892 --> 00:19:54,027
Has this person been
previously--
414
00:19:54,094 --> 00:19:58,432
I mean, does this person have
warrants out for their arrest?
415
00:19:58,498 --> 00:20:01,101
All of that type
of information is there.
416
00:20:01,168 --> 00:20:03,470
So, the question
with Flock cameras
417
00:20:03,537 --> 00:20:05,572
really comes down to this.
418
00:20:05,639 --> 00:20:09,209
Are they there to be used
after the fact
419
00:20:09,810 --> 00:20:12,646
when we say a crime
was committed?
420
00:20:12,713 --> 00:20:16,183
Then they come back and
they look at it and say, "Yeah,
421
00:20:16,250 --> 00:20:20,387
"this person was driving in this
area at this particular time.
422
00:20:20,454 --> 00:20:23,590
This is was-- This is
when the crime was committed."
423
00:20:23,657 --> 00:20:28,362
I think people probably have
a better feel for that.
424
00:20:28,428 --> 00:20:31,765
It's just like
the bombing incident
425
00:20:34,601 --> 00:20:36,737
in Boston with the marathon.
426
00:20:36,803 --> 00:20:38,972
They went back and they
started checking the cameras
427
00:20:39,039 --> 00:20:41,675
and they could start
to piece together things.
428
00:20:41,742 --> 00:20:45,112
I think most citizens
understand that use.
429
00:20:45,179 --> 00:20:50,584
Where it becomes a question
is proactively how it is used.
430
00:20:50,651 --> 00:20:52,586
So, if I'm using this
information
431
00:20:52,653 --> 00:20:54,421
and then I act on it,
432
00:20:54,488 --> 00:20:59,293
even if you have not committed
a crime right then and there,
433
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:00,928
I go knock on your door and say,
434
00:21:00,994 --> 00:21:03,931
"Hey, you came through this
intersection
435
00:21:03,997 --> 00:21:05,632
at such and such date and time."
436
00:21:05,699 --> 00:21:07,134
This is a potential.
437
00:21:07,201 --> 00:21:09,436
"And based
upon the information we have,
438
00:21:09,503 --> 00:21:11,672
you have a warrant
for your arrest."
439
00:21:11,738 --> 00:21:13,540
So, people ask those questions,
440
00:21:13,607 --> 00:21:18,178
or you were here
and you're being surveilled now.
441
00:21:18,946 --> 00:21:22,149
People complain about
the issues of privacy.
442
00:21:22,216 --> 00:21:23,884
- Yeah, and what's done
with that information
443
00:21:23,951 --> 00:21:25,185
once it's gathered?
444
00:21:25,252 --> 00:21:28,121
What happens to it at that--
- That's another issue.
445
00:21:28,188 --> 00:21:30,424
In the--
In most states,
446
00:21:31,658 --> 00:21:35,162
information has been
historically treated--
447
00:21:35,229 --> 00:21:36,730
and there are laws that govern
448
00:21:36,797 --> 00:21:38,732
how long you can maintain
a record.
449
00:21:38,799 --> 00:21:40,300
Where does the information go?
450
00:21:40,367 --> 00:21:42,402
Who has access to it?
451
00:21:42,469 --> 00:21:44,771
So, one of the other concerns
452
00:21:44,838 --> 00:21:46,940
that communities need
to wrestle with
453
00:21:47,007 --> 00:21:51,478
is that if a third party
has data and information
454
00:21:52,079 --> 00:21:54,381
and if the government
has access to that,
455
00:21:54,448 --> 00:21:56,550
have they made that third party
456
00:21:56,617 --> 00:21:59,553
become a de facto part
of the government
457
00:21:59,620 --> 00:22:02,489
because they're accessing
their information?
458
00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:04,424
But where is that stored?
459
00:22:04,491 --> 00:22:06,760
What information
do they have on you?
460
00:22:06,827 --> 00:22:10,864
Don't you have a right to know
what your government has on you?
461
00:22:10,931 --> 00:22:12,266
These are questions
462
00:22:12,332 --> 00:22:14,601
that communities
really do need to wrestle with.
463
00:22:14,668 --> 00:22:19,072
- Yeah, and we know that
some law enforcement agencies,
464
00:22:19,139 --> 00:22:20,407
departments around the state
465
00:22:20,474 --> 00:22:22,776
have been moving away
from that system.
466
00:22:22,843 --> 00:22:24,645
Why do you think it's
so controversial
467
00:22:24,711 --> 00:22:27,247
and why would they move away
from it, you think?
468
00:22:27,314 --> 00:22:29,449
- I think, first of all,
469
00:22:29,983 --> 00:22:33,887
I think it was developed
in many instances
470
00:22:35,489 --> 00:22:37,691
to improve public safety.
471
00:22:37,758 --> 00:22:40,827
I'm not gonna conclude that
that was not the reason.
472
00:22:40,894 --> 00:22:45,566
But I think that right now,
we're behind the curve.
473
00:22:47,234 --> 00:22:51,038
We are behind the curve
because we have not,
474
00:22:51,104 --> 00:22:56,577
as a community, provided
what they should be used for.
475
00:22:56,643 --> 00:22:58,345
What are the standards?
476
00:22:58,412 --> 00:23:00,180
What are the standards
of privacy
477
00:23:00,247 --> 00:23:03,217
that
that community accepts?
478
00:23:03,283 --> 00:23:05,652
How should the police
department use it?
479
00:23:05,719 --> 00:23:07,154
Some communities have gone,
480
00:23:07,221 --> 00:23:08,822
and what they've done
is that
481
00:23:08,889 --> 00:23:11,091
they've pulled together
stakeholders
482
00:23:11,158 --> 00:23:14,628
and they've discussed
from every branch.
483
00:23:14,695 --> 00:23:18,498
They pulled together people
that are, you know,
484
00:23:18,565 --> 00:23:20,667
community members,
civil liberties,
485
00:23:20,734 --> 00:23:24,071
they pulled together people
that are subject matter experts,
486
00:23:24,137 --> 00:23:25,439
the manufacturers,
487
00:23:25,506 --> 00:23:28,742
and they have come up
with some broad guidelines,
488
00:23:28,809 --> 00:23:33,881
and then the community starts
to lay out for law enforcement--
489
00:23:33,947 --> 00:23:36,917
here's some policies,
here are some procedures,
490
00:23:36,984 --> 00:23:39,520
here are some ordinances
that we think would work.
491
00:23:39,586 --> 00:23:42,756
And they all
have to be constantly improved.
492
00:23:42,823 --> 00:23:45,225
But right now,
we're behind the eight ball
493
00:23:45,292 --> 00:23:47,327
because we have not done that.
494
00:23:47,394 --> 00:23:50,330
And so, we're reaching
for this technology
495
00:23:50,397 --> 00:23:52,933
before we know its total impact.
496
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,769
And we're using it
before we know the total impact.
497
00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:58,739
- Yeah, and one of the numbers
I heard, and don't quote me,
498
00:23:58,805 --> 00:24:03,644
but I went to a seminar
last summer that talked about AI
499
00:24:03,710 --> 00:24:05,913
and how it was being used.
500
00:24:05,979 --> 00:24:08,182
And I think at that time
they were saying that,
501
00:24:08,248 --> 00:24:12,319
you know, it's only correct
80% of the time.
502
00:24:12,386 --> 00:24:15,122
And so, is it okay
for something that's, you know,
503
00:24:15,189 --> 00:24:17,391
wrong 20% of the time,
504
00:24:17,457 --> 00:24:20,227
is it okay to use that
as a tool?
505
00:24:20,294 --> 00:24:23,864
So, how do you weigh the value
it brings
506
00:24:24,665 --> 00:24:28,602
in terms of what it brings
to law enforcement
507
00:24:28,669 --> 00:24:34,474
versus the problems it creates
from it being used improperly,
508
00:24:35,809 --> 00:24:39,346
you know,
by the humans that control it?
509
00:24:39,413 --> 00:24:42,583
- It's a very complex question,
but a good one.
510
00:24:42,649 --> 00:24:44,585
So, I gave the example
of the Flock camera.
511
00:24:44,651 --> 00:24:46,820
If someone is wanted for murder,
512
00:24:46,887 --> 00:24:48,689
you want that person
off the street.
513
00:24:48,755 --> 00:24:51,091
You want that Flock camera
to be able to pick that up.
514
00:24:51,158 --> 00:24:53,660
But let me give you an example
that happens every day.
515
00:24:53,727 --> 00:24:55,863
One, if you are under--
516
00:24:56,396 --> 00:25:00,601
if you go to-- go on
a cruise ship, your picture,
517
00:25:00,667 --> 00:25:03,270
your picture is taken, okay?
518
00:25:03,337 --> 00:25:05,372
And that could be used
in other ways.
519
00:25:05,439 --> 00:25:06,974
Government could--
- Do you think most people
520
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,141
assume and understand
521
00:25:08,208 --> 00:25:09,543
that that's happening
wherever they go now?
522
00:25:09,610 --> 00:25:12,246
- No, they don't, they don't.
523
00:25:12,312 --> 00:25:15,449
I don't think they understand
that the government can,
524
00:25:15,516 --> 00:25:18,852
at times, they can decide
to subpoena that,
525
00:25:18,919 --> 00:25:23,123
that private entity
could decide to give it to 'em.
526
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:24,358
They don't know that.
527
00:25:24,424 --> 00:25:28,428
But that to me is--
can be more problematic.
528
00:25:29,630 --> 00:25:32,366
However, in answer
to your question,
529
00:25:32,432 --> 00:25:34,568
sometimes it's situational.
530
00:25:34,635 --> 00:25:36,036
They do the same thing
531
00:25:36,103 --> 00:25:38,639
in many instances
if you get on a flight.
532
00:25:38,705 --> 00:25:42,342
But because the risk of
a person getting on that flight
533
00:25:42,409 --> 00:25:43,510
and that plane coming down
534
00:25:43,577 --> 00:25:46,146
if that person takes
that plane down,
535
00:25:46,213 --> 00:25:49,016
you're willing to take more
of a risk.
536
00:25:49,082 --> 00:25:52,019
You're willing
to give up more of your privacy
537
00:25:52,085 --> 00:25:56,190
if the risk is higher
or if it's effective
538
00:25:56,256 --> 00:25:58,792
and it's important
to save lives.
539
00:25:58,859 --> 00:26:01,261
If it's not doing those things,
you're going,
540
00:26:01,328 --> 00:26:04,898
"Well, why am I giving up
my privacy just for this?"
541
00:26:04,965 --> 00:26:06,800
So, we have--
Those are the things,
542
00:26:06,867 --> 00:26:09,036
those are some of the things
that we have to balance.
543
00:26:09,102 --> 00:26:10,537
You know, are we just doing it
544
00:26:10,604 --> 00:26:13,340
because it's convenient
for a particular industry
545
00:26:13,407 --> 00:26:15,876
or convenient for police?
546
00:26:16,910 --> 00:26:18,145
So, that's one.
547
00:26:18,212 --> 00:26:20,948
One of the things
I do want to mention
548
00:26:21,014 --> 00:26:25,853
that I think really quickly is
there is an economics to this
549
00:26:25,919 --> 00:26:29,756
that is important
for people to understand.
550
00:26:29,823 --> 00:26:33,727
There are agencies now
that are sending calls,
551
00:26:33,794 --> 00:26:38,365
sending drones to calls
to assess the situation, okay?
552
00:26:38,432 --> 00:26:40,234
And then, once they assess it,
553
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:43,904
they may decide to deploy
a police officer or not.
554
00:26:43,971 --> 00:26:46,773
- Isn't that safer?
- It can be.
555
00:26:47,374 --> 00:26:50,744
And all of these
have very positive impacts.
556
00:26:50,811 --> 00:26:53,847
That's why it needs
that scrutiny.
557
00:26:53,914 --> 00:26:58,585
However, you flip that over
and do you start to say,
558
00:27:00,354 --> 00:27:04,558
"Well, it's cheaper
to have the drone do it
559
00:27:04,625 --> 00:27:09,229
"than to have police officers
who I have to pay
560
00:27:09,296 --> 00:27:13,433
insurance, salary, benefits
and all those other things?"
561
00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:15,402
Now, those are major questions
562
00:27:15,469 --> 00:27:18,972
because we have grown accustomed
to having human beings,
563
00:27:19,039 --> 00:27:23,143
and it should always be,
making decisions about arrests.
564
00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:25,345
Who gets the citation?
565
00:27:25,979 --> 00:27:28,782
You know, what are
the mitigating circumstances?
566
00:27:28,849 --> 00:27:30,584
- I'd wanna know
which one's gonna give me
567
00:27:30,651 --> 00:27:34,688
the best intelligence.
- You may wanna--
568
00:27:34,755 --> 00:27:36,523
You may wanna know
who's gonna give you
569
00:27:36,590 --> 00:27:37,791
the best intelligence.
570
00:27:37,858 --> 00:27:39,893
And I believe it's
the police officer.
571
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,264
The technology
will give you the information,
572
00:27:44,331 --> 00:27:47,434
but the police officer
will add those things
573
00:27:47,501 --> 00:27:51,205
that you can't
ever add with that, you know.
574
00:27:51,271 --> 00:27:55,108
- Yeah, but can a drone
talk a person down
575
00:27:55,175 --> 00:27:56,777
from a hostage situation
576
00:27:56,844 --> 00:27:59,947
or a-- whatever
that circumstance is?
577
00:28:00,013 --> 00:28:01,949
I mean, there just has to be
a human element.
578
00:28:02,015 --> 00:28:03,750
- There has to be
a human element
579
00:28:03,817 --> 00:28:05,819
to be able to do those things.
580
00:28:05,886 --> 00:28:08,155
There has to be a human element
581
00:28:08,222 --> 00:28:12,993
to understand the context,
to understand that human being,
582
00:28:13,060 --> 00:28:16,230
where they're coming from,
to understand a particular area.
583
00:28:16,296 --> 00:28:18,232
You can have someone--
584
00:28:18,298 --> 00:28:20,868
You can have people violating
park laws every night,
585
00:28:20,934 --> 00:28:23,537
and that drone will pick up
on it and they'll say,
586
00:28:23,604 --> 00:28:24,705
"This is a problem.
587
00:28:24,771 --> 00:28:26,039
You're violating that."
588
00:28:26,106 --> 00:28:28,041
What they may not know is
that there--
589
00:28:28,108 --> 00:28:29,877
that a store may have closed,
590
00:28:29,943 --> 00:28:33,447
and this may be the only
drugstore open at night,
591
00:28:33,514 --> 00:28:36,617
and people are violating that
just to get to that drugstore.
592
00:28:36,683 --> 00:28:41,288
So, you do need human beings
to assess these things
593
00:28:41,355 --> 00:28:45,592
because just
because something is wrong,
594
00:28:45,659 --> 00:28:48,695
the criminal justice system
may not always be
595
00:28:48,762 --> 00:28:51,465
the correct way to deal with it.
596
00:28:51,532 --> 00:28:53,634
And it takes judgment.
597
00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:54,835
That's why.
598
00:28:54,902 --> 00:28:56,003
That's why.
599
00:28:56,069 --> 00:28:57,738
Justice is not blind.
600
00:28:57,804 --> 00:28:59,339
Justice is blindfolded.
601
00:28:59,406 --> 00:29:02,843
That means that
human beings have to do things
602
00:29:02,910 --> 00:29:05,279
to be able to make sure
that justice
603
00:29:05,345 --> 00:29:08,682
is meted out in an equal
and fair way.
604
00:29:09,616 --> 00:29:11,818
So, that's why
Lady Justice has that.
605
00:29:11,885 --> 00:29:13,287
That's why the balance is there.
606
00:29:13,353 --> 00:29:15,856
You have to balance
the scale with empathy.
607
00:29:15,923 --> 00:29:18,825
You have to balance the scale
with a whole host of issues
608
00:29:18,892 --> 00:29:20,761
that someone is surrounded with.
609
00:29:20,827 --> 00:29:24,531
These are things
technology can't do,
610
00:29:24,598 --> 00:29:28,836
and I don't think
that we want a world right now
611
00:29:29,336 --> 00:29:31,371
where technology is making
those decisions,
612
00:29:31,438 --> 00:29:33,440
just like no one wants a world
613
00:29:33,507 --> 00:29:35,709
that we're constantly
being surveilled.
614
00:29:35,776 --> 00:29:39,513
- Yeah, and speaking of
the human influence on things,
615
00:29:39,580 --> 00:29:43,150
whose job is it to determine,
you know,
616
00:29:44,518 --> 00:29:47,154
how these tools are implemented?
617
00:29:47,221 --> 00:29:50,123
Is it the law enforcement
agency?
618
00:29:50,190 --> 00:29:51,458
Is it the community?
619
00:29:51,525 --> 00:29:53,293
Is it state officials?
620
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,530
Whose job is it to say,
"You know, this is a good idea,
621
00:29:56,597 --> 00:29:59,433
"we should have
a robot that decides that,
622
00:29:59,499 --> 00:30:01,401
"hey, camera one, camera two,
623
00:30:01,468 --> 00:30:04,371
"those guys might do something
suspicious in a month,
624
00:30:04,438 --> 00:30:05,973
and we need to be ready for it."
625
00:30:06,039 --> 00:30:09,476
Like, whose job is it
to choose whether, you know,
626
00:30:09,543 --> 00:30:11,678
that kind of, you know,
627
00:30:12,279 --> 00:30:15,048
superficial technology
is being used, I guess?
628
00:30:15,115 --> 00:30:18,785
- I think it is
the stakeholders of the--
629
00:30:19,953 --> 00:30:22,489
- Is that the people?
- That is the people,
630
00:30:22,556 --> 00:30:25,859
that is the ones
that are the manufacturers.
631
00:30:25,926 --> 00:30:28,262
They're the civil rights
leaders.
632
00:30:28,328 --> 00:30:30,898
There's government,
government.
633
00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:32,666
But the distinction here
634
00:30:32,733 --> 00:30:35,235
is that government has to lead
on this one
635
00:30:35,302 --> 00:30:38,272
because we're talking
about government issues.
636
00:30:38,338 --> 00:30:40,140
- Well, some people are
concerned about the government
637
00:30:40,207 --> 00:30:44,211
because they take the data
and use it in ways
638
00:30:45,379 --> 00:30:49,049
that some of them
don't even know about.
639
00:30:49,550 --> 00:30:53,353
- And when government undermines
trust,
640
00:30:54,321 --> 00:30:57,724
when they're not using it
in a way of honesty,
641
00:30:57,791 --> 00:30:59,860
character, confidence--
642
00:30:59,927 --> 00:31:01,061
when they don't have
the confidence
643
00:31:01,128 --> 00:31:02,663
and they're not using it
the right way,
644
00:31:02,729 --> 00:31:03,830
they've undermined trust.
645
00:31:03,897 --> 00:31:05,699
So, I can't speak--
646
00:31:06,533 --> 00:31:09,069
I'm not speaking to a government
that is not working.
647
00:31:09,136 --> 00:31:10,671
I am being aspirational,
648
00:31:10,737 --> 00:31:13,373
talking about
if a government is working,
649
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:14,908
they should take the lead.
650
00:31:14,975 --> 00:31:16,910
They should bring people
together.
651
00:31:16,977 --> 00:31:18,212
They should talk.
652
00:31:18,278 --> 00:31:20,314
They should bring all
of the key stakeholders together
653
00:31:20,380 --> 00:31:25,385
and decide these key points
of privacy of things like,
654
00:31:26,553 --> 00:31:30,757
you know, public safety,
of trust, of all of this,
655
00:31:30,824 --> 00:31:33,227
'cause all of those things
are right there.
656
00:31:33,293 --> 00:31:36,530
You know, the cost-benefit
analysis of having a drone do it
657
00:31:36,597 --> 00:31:37,965
or a person do it.
658
00:31:38,031 --> 00:31:40,400
All of those things are key
659
00:31:40,467 --> 00:31:43,370
to providing public safety
in this country.
660
00:31:43,437 --> 00:31:46,573
- Yeah, I wanna get this
question here before we wrap up.
661
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,009
I mentioned Big Brother earlier.
662
00:31:49,076 --> 00:31:52,880
You know,
I think people understand that,
663
00:31:52,946 --> 00:31:56,583
you know, we're always--
there's a camera on us
664
00:31:56,650 --> 00:32:02,122
at corners and grocery stores,
elevators, you name it.
665
00:32:02,189 --> 00:32:03,690
Is that a good thing?
666
00:32:03,757 --> 00:32:07,528
- I don't think so
because-- for two reasons.
667
00:32:07,594 --> 00:32:11,064
One, and I know
everyone has cameras.
668
00:32:11,565 --> 00:32:13,133
It's not just government,
669
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,735
but I don't think
it's a good thing,
670
00:32:14,801 --> 00:32:17,037
because it creates
an environment
671
00:32:17,104 --> 00:32:20,774
where we assume
that people are wrong.
672
00:32:20,841 --> 00:32:23,443
It creates
a surveillance mentality
673
00:32:23,510 --> 00:32:25,946
that people have to prove
themselves right.
674
00:32:26,013 --> 00:32:30,617
One of the the major principles
of this country
675
00:32:30,684 --> 00:32:33,954
is that you are right
until-- you are innocent
676
00:32:34,021 --> 00:32:35,656
until proven guilty.
677
00:32:35,722 --> 00:32:36,957
Under these circumstances,
678
00:32:37,024 --> 00:32:38,458
if you're constantly
under surveillance
679
00:32:38,525 --> 00:32:42,763
and something comes up, you
have to prove yourself innocent.
680
00:32:42,829 --> 00:32:46,834
If you show up
as a false positive on a camera
681
00:32:47,467 --> 00:32:49,970
and you were there
and you're a false positive,
682
00:32:50,037 --> 00:32:53,640
you're going to have to prove
that you didn't do it.
683
00:32:53,707 --> 00:32:58,078
And that is-- that turns
the whole dynamic of some things
684
00:32:58,145 --> 00:33:02,716
that for 250 years
was important to this country.
685
00:33:04,618 --> 00:33:09,423
And that's shifting,
that constant surveillance.
686
00:33:11,191 --> 00:33:13,527
- And I also wanna ask you,
687
00:33:14,127 --> 00:33:17,598
what do you see as the
biggest threat to policing,
688
00:33:17,664 --> 00:33:20,734
and what do you see as the
biggest threat to the community
689
00:33:20,801 --> 00:33:22,803
and how it's policed?
690
00:33:23,637 --> 00:33:25,939
- Biggest threat to policing is
691
00:33:26,006 --> 00:33:31,578
if somehow we cannot get the
entire apparatus of government
692
00:33:34,515 --> 00:33:37,084
to start working on these
issues,
693
00:33:37,150 --> 00:33:40,721
because the police
will be left out there hanging,
694
00:33:40,787 --> 00:33:43,323
because the community will ask,
695
00:33:43,390 --> 00:33:46,093
"I need for you to keep
my community safe."
696
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:48,161
But then when they keep
the community safe
697
00:33:48,228 --> 00:33:50,197
and they make a mistake,
698
00:33:50,264 --> 00:33:54,168
then they're gonna say, "Were
you using technology too much?"
699
00:33:54,234 --> 00:33:55,802
So, the police,
700
00:33:55,869 --> 00:33:58,605
as the ones
that are delivering the service,
701
00:33:58,672 --> 00:34:00,741
that will be on their--
702
00:34:00,807 --> 00:34:03,076
that will-- they will carry
the burden
703
00:34:03,143 --> 00:34:06,213
of having to deal with all
of these issues.
704
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:07,781
So, it's important
705
00:34:07,848 --> 00:34:10,317
that if you have
a law enforcement agency
706
00:34:10,384 --> 00:34:13,587
in your jurisdiction,
that you help them
707
00:34:13,654 --> 00:34:16,790
and you pull together
these resources to do that.
708
00:34:16,857 --> 00:34:18,759
What was the second question
again?
709
00:34:18,825 --> 00:34:20,561
- What's the biggest threat
to the community
710
00:34:20,627 --> 00:34:22,296
that's being policed?
711
00:34:22,362 --> 00:34:24,498
- Biggest threat
to the community
712
00:34:24,565 --> 00:34:30,037
that's being policed is that
we lose our faith in humanity,
713
00:34:32,005 --> 00:34:36,476
that we start to believe
that we live in a society
714
00:34:37,244 --> 00:34:39,813
that everyone is a criminal.
715
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,050
People commit crimes
at a very low rate
716
00:34:43,116 --> 00:34:45,319
when it's all said and done.
717
00:34:45,385 --> 00:34:49,189
We should not design systems
solely for the purpose
718
00:34:49,256 --> 00:34:51,158
of catching people.
719
00:34:51,525 --> 00:34:55,128
We should design systems
for keeping the community safe,
720
00:34:55,195 --> 00:34:57,531
albeit which is very important,
721
00:34:57,598 --> 00:35:01,735
but we should also design
systems that do the right thing
722
00:35:01,802 --> 00:35:05,305
and help people
and help communities stay safe
723
00:35:05,372 --> 00:35:08,108
while maintaining
the public trust.
724
00:35:08,175 --> 00:35:09,510
- Yeah, and I'm gonna get
you
725
00:35:09,576 --> 00:35:11,512
to look into your crystal ball
on this one.
726
00:35:11,578 --> 00:35:15,015
What does the future,
considering we're here now,
727
00:35:15,082 --> 00:35:17,150
but what does the future
of law enforcement
728
00:35:17,217 --> 00:35:19,353
look like in terms of technology
and how it's being used?
729
00:35:19,419 --> 00:35:20,521
What do you see?
730
00:35:20,587 --> 00:35:22,322
What's gonna be
the next big to-do?
731
00:35:22,389 --> 00:35:26,393
- That's a tough one
because just as I sit here,
732
00:35:26,460 --> 00:35:28,395
if I go back three years,
733
00:35:28,462 --> 00:35:32,466
everything that was related
to technology has just expanded
734
00:35:32,533 --> 00:35:34,134
like you would not believe.
735
00:35:34,201 --> 00:35:36,103
It is growing so rapidly.
736
00:35:36,170 --> 00:35:40,407
We've got data centers
that are powering algorithms
737
00:35:40,474 --> 00:35:43,977
that we could never imagine
before.
738
00:35:44,044 --> 00:35:48,348
So, it is hard to predict
what's going to happen.
739
00:35:48,415 --> 00:35:53,554
But we must try, if we can,
to keep this human-centered.
740
00:35:55,189 --> 00:35:58,358
Justice must be human-centered.
741
00:35:58,425 --> 00:35:59,726
- From one human to another,
742
00:35:59,793 --> 00:36:01,361
Noble Wray,
thanks for stopping by.
743
00:36:01,428 --> 00:36:02,529
- Thank you very much.
744
00:36:02,596 --> 00:36:06,400
I appreciate it.
- Murv: Appreciate you.