1 00:00:01,168 --> 00:00:04,271 their issues. Sometimes the issues choose them. We look 2 00:00:04,338 --> 00:00:07,074 at a few items in the news this week, from flock 3 00:00:07,140 --> 00:00:09,676 cameras to election integrity, to the name of a 4 00:00:09,743 --> 00:00:14,214 great lake. This is inside Wisconsin politics. 5 00:00:17,451 --> 00:00:18,852 I'm Shawn Johnson here with my colleagues, Anya Van 6 00:00:18,919 --> 00:00:20,988 my colleagues, Anya Van Wagtendonk Zac Schultz and 7 00:00:21,054 --> 00:00:23,123 Rich Kremer in Eau Claire. Hey, everyone. 8 00:00:23,190 --> 00:00:25,459 So flock cameras. These cameras run 9 00:00:25,526 --> 00:00:28,795 by a private company that are used by law enforcement 10 00:00:28,862 --> 00:00:31,565 for vehicle surveillance, have been one of those 11 00:00:31,632 --> 00:00:34,835 slowly building issues in the US. I got to say, I was 12 00:00:34,902 --> 00:00:38,105 not terribly aware of them until about April. It seems 13 00:00:38,172 --> 00:00:41,942 like they have entered our politics here, though. As 14 00:00:42,009 --> 00:00:45,546 we enter September. Zac, where do they fit when it 15 00:00:45,612 --> 00:00:47,781 comes to this year's elections? 16 00:00:47,848 --> 00:00:50,717 >> They are the new issue and it feels like they're a 17 00:00:50,784 --> 00:00:53,086 build out from the data center argument. This idea 18 00:00:53,153 --> 00:00:57,291 of AI surveillance state. How in control are we of 19 00:00:57,357 --> 00:00:59,927 our own destiny? And these really interesting 20 00:00:59,993 --> 00:01:02,462 political topics that don't fit into the typical 21 00:01:02,529 --> 00:01:05,399 partisan narrative. So they not only do we have to 22 00:01:05,465 --> 00:01:08,335 figure out how do people think about them, but the 23 00:01:08,402 --> 00:01:10,470 candidates have to figure out where do we think about 24 00:01:10,537 --> 00:01:12,639 these issues because they don't fit into the usual 25 00:01:12,706 --> 00:01:15,409 pockets where they can say, this is a Republican issue, 26 00:01:15,475 --> 00:01:17,644 this is a Democrat issue. They fall across all of 27 00:01:17,711 --> 00:01:20,647 them. And the idea that license plate readers, 28 00:01:20,714 --> 00:01:22,115 which is essentially what these cameras are, have 29 00:01:22,182 --> 00:01:24,718 been around for a long time. Wisconsin doesn't allow 30 00:01:24,785 --> 00:01:27,054 them, but many other states do. Red light cameras. 31 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:28,789 People have argued about whether those are fair or 32 00:01:28,856 --> 00:01:31,859 not. You can get a ticket in the mail if you've 33 00:01:31,925 --> 00:01:33,927 driven through Illinois and had to pay a toll and 34 00:01:33,994 --> 00:01:36,630 worried about the toll camera catching you or your 35 00:01:36,697 --> 00:01:39,867 license plate having old issues. But the idea 36 00:01:39,933 --> 00:01:42,135 now that some data center can just collect all that 37 00:01:42,202 --> 00:01:44,838 and automatically track you without any idea that it's 38 00:01:44,905 --> 00:01:47,474 happening, or people can use it for nefarious 39 00:01:47,541 --> 00:01:49,676 purposes or outside of a subpoena is bringing it 40 00:01:49,743 --> 00:01:53,313 into legal territory. It builds off these questions 41 00:01:53,380 --> 00:01:55,883 about how involved should our government be when it 42 00:01:55,949 --> 00:01:58,051 comes to these, and where should our politicians 43 00:01:58,118 --> 00:02:00,387 stand? And right now, what we're seeing is the 44 00:02:00,454 --> 00:02:03,724 gubernatorial candidate real quick where I want to 45 00:02:03,790 --> 00:02:06,627 be on this, because this could be the next thing to 46 00:02:06,693 --> 00:02:09,796 bite me in the butt in a few weeks. If I don't have 47 00:02:09,863 --> 00:02:12,299 a strong position that falls in line with where my 48 00:02:12,366 --> 00:02:15,135 voters are and independent voters. 49 00:02:15,202 --> 00:02:18,272 candidates on these? And you know, what kind of 50 00:02:18,338 --> 00:02:20,307 political bedfellows are we seeing here? 51 00:02:20,374 --> 00:02:23,143 >> Yeah, I mean, as Zac said, it doesn't fall into 52 00:02:23,210 --> 00:02:25,045 these kind of clear political narratives. And 53 00:02:25,112 --> 00:02:27,614 so we are seeing kind of both candidates, much like 54 00:02:27,681 --> 00:02:30,417 the data center issue, kind of use this to go after one 55 00:02:30,484 --> 00:02:32,886 another. So in particular, Tom Tiffany this week has 56 00:02:32,953 --> 00:02:36,089 been trying to call David Crowley big brother, David 57 00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:38,158 Crowley. So first he was data center David Crowley, 58 00:02:38,225 --> 00:02:41,128 now he's big brother because of the ways in 59 00:02:41,195 --> 00:02:43,664 which flock was used in Milwaukee County. For his 60 00:02:43,730 --> 00:02:47,968 part. David. David. David Crowley is now trying to 61 00:02:48,035 --> 00:02:50,103 reduce the use of them in Milwaukee County. There's 62 00:02:50,170 --> 00:02:52,639 been changes to the policy in Milwaukee City as well. 63 00:02:52,706 --> 00:02:55,976 And so both candidates are really trying to kind of 64 00:02:56,043 --> 00:02:58,579 leverage people's feelings on both the right and the 65 00:02:58,645 --> 00:03:01,114 left, sort of against this tool for their own 66 00:03:01,181 --> 00:03:04,451 political aims. >> And rich, it strikes me 67 00:03:04,518 --> 00:03:08,655 that there is not a really clean line of where 68 00:03:09,756 --> 00:03:12,125 conservative stands on this. You know, there's not a 69 00:03:12,192 --> 00:03:16,563 Republican position when it comes to flock cameras. 70 00:03:16,630 --> 00:03:21,768 What's the sort of spectrum of where they stand on this? 71 00:03:22,503 --> 00:03:24,605 >> Yeah, it is surprising because, you know, 72 00:03:24,671 --> 00:03:28,842 typically you think of the GOP as as, you know, 73 00:03:28,909 --> 00:03:31,445 lockstep with law enforcement and law 74 00:03:31,512 --> 00:03:35,082 enforcement has been using this technology for 75 00:03:35,148 --> 00:03:37,417 homicide investigations, all sorts of things. But 76 00:03:37,484 --> 00:03:41,255 we've also seen stories, including two in Milwaukee 77 00:03:41,321 --> 00:03:44,024 situations where officers are using it for personal 78 00:03:44,091 --> 00:03:47,394 reasons or just not for what it's intended. 79 00:03:47,461 --> 00:03:51,031 Unauthorized use. And that is what is part of what's 80 00:03:51,098 --> 00:03:54,601 getting people really upset. So on the Republican side, 81 00:03:54,668 --> 00:03:57,604 it seems like you've got the more libertarian people 82 00:03:57,671 --> 00:04:01,074 who just don't like this idea of surveillance at all. 83 00:04:01,141 --> 00:04:04,645 You've got some on in the Republican Party that are 84 00:04:04,711 --> 00:04:07,648 saying, look, this is just another tool. It's been 85 00:04:07,714 --> 00:04:10,050 around for a long time. They don't understand why 86 00:04:10,117 --> 00:04:13,320 it's a big deal right now. And then you've got Tom 87 00:04:13,387 --> 00:04:16,056 Tiffany, who's trying to thread that needle, as Anya 88 00:04:16,123 --> 00:04:19,026 mentioned, he's been attacking David Crowley, 89 00:04:19,092 --> 00:04:23,063 claiming that Crowley is all about these things and 90 00:04:23,130 --> 00:04:26,700 is is a big supporter of them. Crowley has said they 91 00:04:26,767 --> 00:04:30,871 are an important tool, but he said, quote, unchecked 92 00:04:30,938 --> 00:04:33,340 surveillance isn't the answer. So that speaks to 93 00:04:33,407 --> 00:04:35,809 the limits that the county is putting in place now. 94 00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:38,712 And with regard to surveillance, Tiffany's 95 00:04:38,779 --> 00:04:41,181 position is kind of interesting. He says he 96 00:04:41,248 --> 00:04:45,085 would block state funds going towards shared 97 00:04:45,152 --> 00:04:47,821 revenue to local governments. He would 98 00:04:47,888 --> 00:04:50,123 essentially say this money can't be used to purchase 99 00:04:50,190 --> 00:04:53,660 these types of cameras or these systems until we have 100 00:04:53,727 --> 00:04:57,197 a committee task force, take a look at it. And 101 00:04:57,264 --> 00:05:00,300 that's interesting because in Congress, Tiffany has 102 00:05:00,367 --> 00:05:04,037 voted to restore or to continue the FISA 103 00:05:05,105 --> 00:05:09,409 surveillance, which is essentially warrantless 104 00:05:09,476 --> 00:05:12,579 mass surveillance of cell phone conversations, text 105 00:05:12,646 --> 00:05:15,282 messages, electronic communications. And that 106 00:05:15,349 --> 00:05:19,686 back in its days, in the early 2000 was a very big 107 00:05:20,654 --> 00:05:23,357 political issue that's kind of died down somewhat in 108 00:05:23,423 --> 00:05:27,361 more recent years. >> So we could imagine a 109 00:05:27,427 --> 00:05:30,831 different world, right, rich, where this issue 110 00:05:30,898 --> 00:05:34,735 comes up. And Tom Tiffany, who's trying to run as this 111 00:05:34,801 --> 00:05:38,138 tough on crime candidate and wants to say, let's not 112 00:05:38,205 --> 00:05:40,040 be Milwaukee since he's running against the 113 00:05:40,107 --> 00:05:42,409 Milwaukee candidate, you could definitely imagine a 114 00:05:42,476 --> 00:05:45,112 world where he's saying, we need to give police every 115 00:05:45,179 --> 00:05:48,715 tool that they want to fight crime. Has there been 116 00:05:48,782 --> 00:05:53,020 any hint of that in what Tom Tiffany's saying? 117 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:56,123 >> Well, he's he's essentially not saying he's 118 00:05:56,190 --> 00:05:59,092 going to take this tool away, but he wants to put 119 00:05:59,159 --> 00:06:03,096 more safeguards in place just in my social media 120 00:06:03,163 --> 00:06:07,634 stream last night, I saw two posts back to back on 121 00:06:08,302 --> 00:06:13,307 Twitter and one was Tiffany calling David Crowley big 122 00:06:13,974 --> 00:06:16,510 brother, Crowley or, you know, flat camera Crowley. 123 00:06:16,577 --> 00:06:19,313 And the next post was someone with Tiffany's 124 00:06:19,379 --> 00:06:22,816 campaign talking about a third party ad highlighting 125 00:06:22,883 --> 00:06:25,452 the the fights and the melee we saw at the state 126 00:06:25,519 --> 00:06:28,856 Fair and talk about talking about how Crowley is soft 127 00:06:28,922 --> 00:06:32,226 on crime. And it just struck me as as kind of 128 00:06:32,292 --> 00:06:36,630 ironic because you're saying he's too supportive 129 00:06:36,697 --> 00:06:40,167 of this technology that law enforcement uses, but also 130 00:06:40,234 --> 00:06:42,903 soft on crime. So which is it? 131 00:06:43,537 --> 00:06:46,273 >> Is there something, Zac, about Wisconsin's politics 132 00:06:46,340 --> 00:06:49,443 being sort of a little libertarian that makes this 133 00:06:49,510 --> 00:06:52,412 issue different than than in other states? I mean, I 134 00:06:52,479 --> 00:06:54,314 think about you kind of referenced it there, but 135 00:06:54,381 --> 00:06:56,850 there has been a push for years to have red light 136 00:06:56,917 --> 00:06:59,920 cameras here, and that has been defeated in the 137 00:06:59,987 --> 00:07:02,990 legislature. Every time. You know, there was a time 138 00:07:03,056 --> 00:07:06,360 in the more distant past when there was resistance 139 00:07:06,426 --> 00:07:08,829 to giving police the ability to write tickets 140 00:07:08,896 --> 00:07:12,599 for not wearing a seatbelt. Here. Is Wisconsin kind of 141 00:07:12,666 --> 00:07:16,570 a unique place when it comes to issues like flock. 142 00:07:16,637 --> 00:07:18,672 >> Potentially is, and there's a history that goes 143 00:07:18,739 --> 00:07:20,874 about your individual liberties as a member of 144 00:07:20,941 --> 00:07:23,377 the motorcycle helmet issue in Wisconsin, being the 145 00:07:23,443 --> 00:07:26,046 home of Harley Davidson, you didn't have to wear a 146 00:07:26,113 --> 00:07:28,415 helmet in Wisconsin for a long time. And there were 147 00:07:28,482 --> 00:07:31,084 debates about whether it was okay to ban the use of 148 00:07:31,151 --> 00:07:33,320 cell phones in cars, and there was already laws that 149 00:07:33,387 --> 00:07:35,255 covered that. All these things that we've covered 150 00:07:35,322 --> 00:07:38,058 at the Capitol over the years, and there is this 151 00:07:38,125 --> 00:07:41,094 mentality that we don't go too far or wait to see 152 00:07:41,161 --> 00:07:43,096 where other states go first, and then figure out if it 153 00:07:43,163 --> 00:07:45,933 makes sense for Wisconsin. And there's a lot of 154 00:07:45,999 --> 00:07:48,836 independents that just don't like the idea of 155 00:07:48,902 --> 00:07:52,072 being watched or being followed. And a lot of 156 00:07:52,139 --> 00:07:54,875 these came from like the sci fi movies that we 157 00:07:54,942 --> 00:07:57,878 watched as kids that are now in reality. And it's 158 00:07:57,945 --> 00:08:00,180 scary for some people because we've been trained 159 00:08:00,247 --> 00:08:03,717 for decades that when these things happen, it's the bad 160 00:08:03,784 --> 00:08:06,720 times and they're happening now. So people are hearing 161 00:08:06,787 --> 00:08:09,590 it from both the left and the right that, hey, this 162 00:08:09,656 --> 00:08:12,693 isn't what I signed up for. Even if it is a tool that 163 00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:14,828 has helped law enforcement track down people that have 164 00:08:14,895 --> 00:08:17,064 committed crimes, the question is, does it go too 165 00:08:17,130 --> 00:08:21,935 far? And in this era of ICE bursting into cities, the 166 00:08:22,536 --> 00:08:24,605 question of whether police are going to come through 167 00:08:24,671 --> 00:08:27,808 your door. There's been left and right debates over 168 00:08:27,875 --> 00:08:30,410 warrantless breaking into apartments to arrest people. 169 00:08:30,477 --> 00:08:33,013 Then they got the wrong door and all sorts of 170 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,082 things that go beyond this, where people are just 171 00:08:35,148 --> 00:08:38,085 scared of, hey, what if they get it wrong? I don't 172 00:08:38,151 --> 00:08:40,153 trust AI. They can't even repeat my my answer into my 173 00:08:40,220 --> 00:08:42,856 phone correctly. How are they going to get this 174 00:08:42,923 --> 00:08:44,725 right when it comes to arresting someone? 175 00:08:44,791 --> 00:08:47,160 >> Ana, do we have any evidence that this is going 176 00:08:47,227 --> 00:08:50,264 to be an issue that moves people in November, or are 177 00:08:50,330 --> 00:08:52,366 people going to be voting on flock? 178 00:08:52,432 --> 00:08:55,402 >> You know, I don't know if in the same way that the 179 00:08:55,469 --> 00:08:58,272 data center issue is, you know, kind of a rich text 180 00:08:58,338 --> 00:09:00,541 of an issue that a lot of people can read, many 181 00:09:00,607 --> 00:09:03,577 different sort of problems or concerns into flock 182 00:09:03,644 --> 00:09:06,547 seems a little bit narrower. And so I think it'll be up 183 00:09:06,613 --> 00:09:09,082 to the candidates to really try to connect concerns 184 00:09:09,149 --> 00:09:12,085 with flock to other things in order to drive that. So 185 00:09:12,152 --> 00:09:14,188 one of the arguments we've seen in other states, 186 00:09:14,254 --> 00:09:16,190 because Wisconsin is not the only state kind of 187 00:09:16,256 --> 00:09:18,458 grappling with this right now, is that these 188 00:09:18,525 --> 00:09:21,128 contracts are very expensive. And so at a time 189 00:09:21,195 --> 00:09:23,230 that a lot of communities are really struggling, and 190 00:09:23,297 --> 00:09:25,465 certainly a lot of people are really struggling 191 00:09:25,532 --> 00:09:27,935 financially. And then your town, you know, maybe can't 192 00:09:28,001 --> 00:09:31,205 pave your potholes, but has a $10 million contract. 193 00:09:31,271 --> 00:09:33,340 That is a connection that I think will register with 194 00:09:33,407 --> 00:09:36,176 voters. I'm not sure if this issue in and of itself, 195 00:09:36,243 --> 00:09:39,046 just the kind of AI and surveillance aspect, will 196 00:09:39,112 --> 00:09:41,048 necessarily sway voters. But as we always say, you 197 00:09:41,114 --> 00:09:43,817 only need to sway a few in Wisconsin to win an 198 00:09:43,884 --> 00:09:47,054 election. something like this, I have 199 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,256 to take a step back sometimes because, you know, 200 00:09:49,323 --> 00:09:51,959 we're journalists, we see a new issue out there. We 201 00:09:52,025 --> 00:09:54,161 don't know how people are going to respond. So 202 00:09:54,228 --> 00:09:57,030 exciting. You know, we feel like this must be the next 203 00:09:57,097 --> 00:09:59,199 big thing. Marquette had that poll last week asking 204 00:09:59,266 --> 00:10:01,768 people about, you know, their most important issues. 205 00:10:01,835 --> 00:10:06,073 5% said data centers. And it was like around 40% or 206 00:10:06,139 --> 00:10:09,676 so plus. That said, the cost of living. So I think 207 00:10:09,743 --> 00:10:12,946 the old issues maybe still carry a little bit more 208 00:10:13,013 --> 00:10:16,750 weight. We did get some other news this week that 209 00:10:16,817 --> 00:10:20,821 feels a little more familiar. There's an 210 00:10:20,888 --> 00:10:24,358 investigation. CNN reported being launched by the 211 00:10:24,424 --> 00:10:29,162 Department of Homeland Security into noncitizen 212 00:10:29,229 --> 00:10:33,400 voter fraud in nine states, including Wisconsin. Rich, 213 00:10:33,467 --> 00:10:37,771 tell us about that. >> Yeah. So this comes from 214 00:10:37,838 --> 00:10:41,375 an internal memo from the federal government that CNN 215 00:10:41,441 --> 00:10:44,912 obtained. It listed the states, of Wisconsin, also 216 00:10:44,978 --> 00:10:47,114 Georgia and Pennsylvania. Those two caught my 217 00:10:47,181 --> 00:10:51,018 attention as well. But a number of states included. 218 00:10:51,084 --> 00:10:54,988 So this is essentially in a a plans for a big 219 00:10:57,024 --> 00:10:59,593 investigation into noncitizen voting, 220 00:10:59,660 --> 00:11:03,030 fraudulent voting ahead of the election. And 221 00:11:03,096 --> 00:11:05,299 traditionally, you know, this is what CNN reported. 222 00:11:05,365 --> 00:11:07,701 Historically, the Department of Justice 223 00:11:07,768 --> 00:11:11,972 doesn't launch these sorts of big announcements right 224 00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:15,542 before an election, just as a matter of kind of it's 225 00:11:15,609 --> 00:11:18,378 not a formal policy, but just best practice. 226 00:11:18,445 --> 00:11:21,682 Department of Homeland Security doesn't have to 227 00:11:21,748 --> 00:11:24,585 follow that. And it's got its own investigative unit 228 00:11:24,651 --> 00:11:29,189 that is going to be doing this work. So but the 229 00:11:29,256 --> 00:11:31,725 backdrop here is that President Donald Trump has 230 00:11:31,792 --> 00:11:35,195 been, you know, making these broad claims without 231 00:11:35,262 --> 00:11:38,332 any evidence that there was massive voter fraud in 2020. 232 00:11:38,398 --> 00:11:41,502 And that was why he lost the election to President 233 00:11:41,568 --> 00:11:45,405 Joe Biden. And since then, you know, more recently, we 234 00:11:45,472 --> 00:11:48,642 see the Wisconsin I mean, the U.S. Department of 235 00:11:48,709 --> 00:11:52,012 Justice is suing Wisconsin to force us to force the 236 00:11:52,079 --> 00:11:55,582 state to turn over sensitive voter 237 00:11:55,649 --> 00:11:58,118 registration documents. And they're saying, well, there 238 00:11:58,185 --> 00:12:01,822 could be fraud. We need to check. And we're not sure 239 00:12:01,889 --> 00:12:03,790 Wisconsin is checking. That's the gist of the 240 00:12:03,857 --> 00:12:07,060 argument. And, you know, the DOJ has sued dozens of 241 00:12:07,127 --> 00:12:09,897 other states as well. They haven't won a single case. 242 00:12:09,963 --> 00:12:13,467 And also the U.S. Postal Service has finalized a 243 00:12:13,534 --> 00:12:17,137 policy that would essentially tell its people 244 00:12:17,204 --> 00:12:19,640 to not send absentee ballots to people who 245 00:12:19,706 --> 00:12:21,875 aren't on these federal lists. That is held up in 246 00:12:21,942 --> 00:12:26,847 court right now, but it all serves as kind of this this 247 00:12:28,248 --> 00:12:31,118 backdrop of, of what's happening with regard to 248 00:12:31,185 --> 00:12:35,122 this latest investigation news reported by CNN. 249 00:12:35,189 --> 00:12:38,492 >> And Ana. I think we've gotten kind of used to 250 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,328 hearing about these types of investigations. Now, 251 00:12:41,395 --> 00:12:45,132 even if they don't go anywhere, is there anything, 252 00:12:45,199 --> 00:12:47,935 you know, particularly unusual about this one, 253 00:12:48,001 --> 00:12:49,837 though, in terms of who's leading it? 254 00:12:49,903 --> 00:12:52,172 >> Yeah. I mean, we've certainly, as Rich said, 255 00:12:52,239 --> 00:12:54,875 there has been this kind of steady drumbeat since 2020. 256 00:12:54,942 --> 00:12:57,544 It's the water that we swim in. Is this kind of 257 00:12:57,611 --> 00:12:59,646 allegations of election fraud. I think at this 258 00:12:59,713 --> 00:13:02,649 point in my sleep, I could type out the list of sort 259 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:04,952 of nonpartisan and partizan investigations that all 260 00:13:05,018 --> 00:13:07,054 election fraud, but that has not diminished the 261 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,056 claims coming from the Trump administration. What 262 00:13:09,122 --> 00:13:11,692 makes this so different is that this is DHS. This is 263 00:13:11,758 --> 00:13:15,462 like an arm of DHS that normally goes after human 264 00:13:15,529 --> 00:13:17,865 traffickers, drug smuggling, this kind of thing, and 265 00:13:17,931 --> 00:13:20,801 they are looking into noncitizen voting, which is 266 00:13:20,868 --> 00:13:23,303 essentially a thing that does not happen. It is 267 00:13:23,370 --> 00:13:25,806 against state law. It's against federal law. But 268 00:13:25,873 --> 00:13:29,510 we've been hearing sort of claims around the 269 00:13:29,576 --> 00:13:32,079 possibility of this for a long time. Wisconsin has 270 00:13:32,145 --> 00:13:34,448 has looked to pass a constitutional amendment 271 00:13:34,515 --> 00:13:38,652 about this. But now using this kind of quite 272 00:13:38,719 --> 00:13:41,054 militarized, quite intensive arm of the 273 00:13:41,121 --> 00:13:44,625 government to go after it. First of all, they don't 274 00:13:44,691 --> 00:13:47,294 sort of have to follow DOJ guidance around what you 275 00:13:47,361 --> 00:13:49,863 can do around an election. And I'll note, you know, 276 00:13:49,930 --> 00:13:52,766 we're less than two months out from our election. DOJ 277 00:13:52,833 --> 00:13:55,936 has guidance that says don't do really intense 278 00:13:56,003 --> 00:13:57,471 investigative things unless you absolutely have to this 279 00:13:57,538 --> 00:14:00,140 close to an election because it can chill voting, 280 00:14:00,207 --> 00:14:02,409 etc. DHS doesn't have to follow any of that. And 281 00:14:02,476 --> 00:14:05,145 then meanwhile, as they've been ramping up this action, 282 00:14:05,212 --> 00:14:08,048 they've been saying at one point they said that they 283 00:14:08,115 --> 00:14:10,951 found 250,000 noncitizens who are registered to vote 284 00:14:11,018 --> 00:14:13,587 in four states. And then upon further investigation, 285 00:14:13,654 --> 00:14:18,325 they've released 180 ID numbers tied to people. 286 00:14:18,392 --> 00:14:20,260 They won't give any more information. So they're 287 00:14:20,327 --> 00:14:23,096 kind of just at the very least, significantly 288 00:14:23,163 --> 00:14:25,465 muddying the waters with a huge amount of resources 289 00:14:25,532 --> 00:14:27,467 from the federal government. Again, going into these 290 00:14:27,534 --> 00:14:30,304 critical midterm elections. >> Zac, I don't feel like 291 00:14:30,370 --> 00:14:32,840 there's been a November election that goes by when 292 00:14:32,906 --> 00:14:36,410 there isn't some election issue that is, you know, 293 00:14:36,476 --> 00:14:39,079 tied up in the courts or fought over in the courts 294 00:14:39,146 --> 00:14:43,050 or in the court of public opinion. Is this one the 295 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:46,820 big one in the year 2026? Or will we forget about 296 00:14:46,887 --> 00:14:49,456 this in a few months? >> Well, in a few months, 297 00:14:49,523 --> 00:14:51,558 it'll still be being brought up because no 298 00:14:51,625 --> 00:14:55,229 matter what happens afterwards, someone's going 299 00:14:55,295 --> 00:14:57,397 question is, of all the things that Rich listed off, 300 00:14:57,464 --> 00:14:59,533 and there's a lot of different avenues in which 301 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,436 the Trump administration is clearly pursuing to push 302 00:15:02,503 --> 00:15:06,073 their narrative of false voting or fraud, which, as 303 00:15:06,139 --> 00:15:08,842 we must repeat every time, there is no evidence it has 304 00:15:08,909 --> 00:15:11,411 ever existed or does exist. It does not change the 305 00:15:11,478 --> 00:15:14,715 outcome of any elections, anywhere, but that doesn't 306 00:15:14,781 --> 00:15:16,917 stop them from putting it out into the public 307 00:15:16,984 --> 00:15:19,653 consciousness. And there's this the is it the Postal 308 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,456 Service? Potentially not delivering ballots? Well, 309 00:15:22,523 --> 00:15:24,558 obviously, that would have a tremendous impact on 310 00:15:24,625 --> 00:15:26,994 voting in Wisconsin. That one seems like the courts 311 00:15:27,060 --> 00:15:29,930 are going to hold it up. It seems less likely to come 312 00:15:29,997 --> 00:15:32,065 to fruition. We've heard rumors for more than a year 313 00:15:32,132 --> 00:15:35,068 that Trump's going to send ICE in around the polls to 314 00:15:35,135 --> 00:15:37,804 try and scare voters. It was kind of hand-waved away 315 00:15:37,871 --> 00:15:40,040 by a lot of Republicans saying, no, of course that 316 00:15:40,107 --> 00:15:42,042 wouldn't happen. This is America, you know, that's 317 00:15:42,109 --> 00:15:45,112 just, you know, people have not wanted to look too 318 00:15:45,179 --> 00:15:47,047 deeply into what could happen because it's never 319 00:15:47,114 --> 00:15:49,750 happened in American history before. So there 320 00:15:49,816 --> 00:15:52,953 are legitimate fears that there could be law 321 00:15:53,020 --> 00:15:55,656 enforcement there at certain poll sites in 322 00:15:55,722 --> 00:15:57,724 certain swing states, and we can all guess which ones 323 00:15:57,791 --> 00:16:00,260 they are that might influence the outcome of 324 00:16:00,327 --> 00:16:02,496 election. The question is, will it actually happen? 325 00:16:02,563 --> 00:16:04,998 And then who will be the one crying foul afterwards 326 00:16:05,065 --> 00:16:07,868 about what that actually means in deterring voters, 327 00:16:07,935 --> 00:16:09,703 literally keeping voters from coming away? But these 328 00:16:09,770 --> 00:16:12,840 kind of stories do come up every single cycle. The 329 00:16:12,906 --> 00:16:15,776 question is, will we see people with guns outside 330 00:16:15,843 --> 00:16:17,511 polls that represent the federal government, that 331 00:16:17,578 --> 00:16:21,448 scare away voters? >> That's a big question. 332 00:16:21,515 --> 00:16:24,084 Turning to something completely different and 333 00:16:24,151 --> 00:16:28,021 something I definitely did not see coming as we enter 334 00:16:28,088 --> 00:16:30,858 this, you know, homestretch of the election, the 335 00:16:30,924 --> 00:16:33,794 president renamed a great lake. According to an 336 00:16:33,861 --> 00:16:38,699 executive order from Lake Ontario to Lake America. 337 00:16:38,765 --> 00:16:42,536 Ana when that happens, people react to it. 338 00:16:42,603 --> 00:16:44,738 Candidates have to react to it. It's expected. What are 339 00:16:44,805 --> 00:16:47,241 our candidates saying about the president doing this? 340 00:16:47,307 --> 00:16:50,043 >> Well, most interestingly is Tom Tiffany, again, a 341 00:16:50,110 --> 00:16:52,513 close ally of President Trump. And he essentially 342 00:16:52,579 --> 00:16:55,782 said, I don't know that I like this. He said, you 343 00:16:55,849 --> 00:16:58,585 know, he sort of turned it into a joke. He said, 344 00:16:58,652 --> 00:17:00,654 unless we're changing Lake Michigan to Lake Wisconsin. 345 00:17:00,721 --> 00:17:03,423 Otherwise, I don't think this is a good idea. And so 346 00:17:03,490 --> 00:17:05,759 that allows him to put a little bit of air between 347 00:17:05,826 --> 00:17:08,996 himself and President Trump. But on an issue that is not 348 00:17:09,062 --> 00:17:11,865 super from a policy standpoint, not necessarily 349 00:17:11,932 --> 00:17:14,868 a super impactful decision, what it is, is kind of one 350 00:17:14,935 --> 00:17:17,638 of these more ostentatious decisions that Trump often 351 00:17:17,704 --> 00:17:20,307 likes to make, maybe a distracting kind of moment 352 00:17:20,374 --> 00:17:22,609 during a time like this. So it allows Tiffany to put 353 00:17:22,676 --> 00:17:25,445 that air between them, but not necessarily on an issue 354 00:17:25,512 --> 00:17:29,183 that, you know, is very consequential. 355 00:17:29,249 --> 00:17:32,019 oh, come on, this is the one that you picked to 356 00:17:32,085 --> 00:17:34,955 differentiate with the president. On Zac, just 357 00:17:35,022 --> 00:17:37,991 real quick as we wrap up here, any sense that voters 358 00:17:38,058 --> 00:17:40,661 will take note of this in November? 359 00:17:40,727 --> 00:17:43,063 >> I can't imagine this being the deciding issue 360 00:17:43,130 --> 00:17:45,766 for someone in an election, but I'm sure there's one 361 00:17:45,832 --> 00:17:48,335 person out of 3 million voters that will say, this 362 00:17:48,402 --> 00:17:50,304 is what matters to me most, and they're probably a 363 00:17:50,370 --> 00:17:53,607 sailor. >> Going after that sailor 364 00:17:53,674 --> 00:17:58,078 vote, a crucial demographic in Wisconsin. 365 00:17:58,145 --> 00:17:59,847 That's all the time we have for today. 366 00:17:59,913 --> 00:18:02,616 This has been inside Wisconsin politics. Be sure 367 00:18:02,683 --> 00:18:05,853 to follow us on PBS wisconsin.org. WPR.org, 368 00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:10,123 YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.