>> A week
from
this past Monday,
like in four days or.
>> As the general
election begins, the
candidates for governor look to
define one
another. That
includes Tom Tiffany
attacking David
Crowley on
data centers.
This is inside Wisconsin politics.
I'm Shawn
Johnson myere with
colleagues Wagtendonk and
Zac Schultz. >> Hello.
>> So
it feels
like ads are
just always
running in Wisconsin,
swing state, Wisconsin, where every
election is
so important.
But Ana,
I wonder
if there
is an argument
to be made
that the ads
that running
right now
are potentially very
critical the
outcome of a
race the one
we have for governor.
>> I mean, right. sort ofs
the pivot point. We are going from primary
to this particular instance,
where we had such crazynd of
Democratic primary, two veryow
clear candidates
that are tooing
be on the ballot.
And so themselves define
and they're another. And
so right now, think with all of
that of theg outnd of
primary week, now is the time that they
have to note entire state,
just their party base, and say, this is
who I am. perhaps thisantly,
is who that guy is. And here's
why you don't want for him.
>> Define or be Zac. It strikes
me that particular are
maybe that because they're not
that well known. They're not that well
statewide. And this is really their opportunity to
decide on what therritory
election will be
fought. Will it
be about
for Tom Tiffany? His greatest fear
is this is an his connections
to Donald Trump and
the national economy and
affordability or
abortion, or any of
those topics that he doesn't want to
talk about. For David
Crowley, it's
absolutely he doesn't
want have to talk
about crime
rates, or he
doesn't want about some of the
executive madeisions he's
in Milwaukee or some
of the history of county, and
especially where he is
on This isenters.
one of those pivot points that Tom
Tiffany trying to say.
Let's put becauset category,
I think that's an area that people want
to canthink I, and
make it more favorable to myself, especially in
the sense that he's well
defined in Just asrea.
we were talking createtrying to
the definition of stand Tom Tiffany
on data centers? Because
it's not super clear.
>> Yeah. I mean, with the
caveat that how don't know
it's going to work neither does the
Tiffany campaign. As
far as
wedge issues
go, it's
fairly clever.
This is a
relatively new issue to
politics. So
it's not defined
in the way that
some other issues are. don't know exactly
where with therest groups
parties. So
Ana how is
that playing out
in this
attack from
Tom Tiffany?
How is he
going David
Crowley trying
to frame
him? >> Yeah, I mean,
he's against him.s
He's calling Data Center.
David Crowley
DC, DC
as a way of
trying to kind of to this.
And the way he's doing it is in
a slightly that becauseay
David Crowley rollkind ofged
back these specific makesntives, that that
him more pro data center. David Crowley is
also kind of trying split the difference
a supportell, Id
local control. So that don't want
it don't have to
have wouldI
want, you know, sort tight
controls and regulations in this kind of
thing. But the
other kind
of interesting
piece of
how Tom
Tiffany is handling
this, so I went
yesterday to
an endorsement
announcement for these
environmental areoups that
now backing David
Crowley. And of
course, environmental
concerns are very
tied up
in people's concerns over
data centers.
And part of the
way that Tom
Tiffany is now
framing it is
that data
centers are taking
away farmland.
And also
because a push
from Democrats
to have
a sustainable
energy, be sort
of the backbone
of data
centers. He's
also now ofind
using it as a three punch
of they're not justrmland,
to create data but also to create
wind farms and solar And so he
can kind of it together in all
of these things that speak to Republican
voters, solar, like wind farms.ke
And their work have
cut out for them to kind of distinguish
those issues. Zac, I was just
seeing some social media appearances from Tom
He was at an and he's kind
of framing it data centers versus
farmland is
maybe like a
pretty transparent
appeal rural
voters in that
instance. >> It's
doing so many
things at
the same time because it is about
his One of hisural
earliest months ago
talked about how
prevent foreign
countries coming in
and buying anarmland, which is
issue that does concern people that are worried
about the rising cost
of field out a to
to put crops in
the we've, as
seen with tariffs affecting s
oybean and corn
farmers, they're
looking for someone
to blame.
And if of there some
cognitive for them is
they don't want
to blame Donald Trump.
I've interviewed them, and
they him andmelly want
his decisions. So they Tom Tiffany says,
well, it's not his It's over here.
This is who blame for your rising
costs. Well, they're more than happy to follow
along that inclination
to begin with. So
it's definitely a to do that. But
what's fascinating ist that's
he's really
trying to split
off
those Hong
voters from
David Crowley
and split the
left, because
we've seen elections
where the
far and
progressive left
have sat
out. Maybe
not in huge
numbers, but enough
numbers where itotentially
does swing an
election. Clinton. Wery
saw that with Harris,
and they're trying
to repeat that
pattern with David
Crowley. they can paint
him as
more moderate,
more corporate
and less
true, far
left than some of
those voters may go
third or just set
all together. one of the
concerns, is he has to watch his flank, even
though he won by the center.
>> That's definitely an open question for me,
especially because you at least get the impression
that a lot of are maybeers
not a politics
first kind of
voter. You came to her
because she
spoke to them
in different ways, more
of candidate.
She not want
to with Donald
Trump, but a
movement candidate
in that way.
You get different
people into the
political arena.
And, you know, one
question that I think of them had
during the whyary was,
don't more Democrats
just say what
Francesca Hong is saying? We're going to have
a I like the on data
sounds of that. Anauldn't David Crowley
just say, hey, let's let's put the brakes
on issue isnterhis
all taken care of for me politically.
>> Well,
politically speaking,
data centers are
not popular. The
vast majority
of voters,
Democrats and Republicans,
don't support data
centers, they
certainly support them sort
of coming But thereunities.
is a real kind
of around the
types in,ey can bring
the kind of economic development
possibilities so I think
like as a
politician, you don't necessarily want to
say, you know,
categorically, I will not
support a thatng
could be a driver
of economic
growth, inspecially
some of these kind of
hard hit places in Wisconsin that are kind
of foring
economic opportunities. You know,
another piece of this,
too, is
that a lot
of the the
data center,
a lot of
the thats
Bakke David
Crowley are
involved in
data center
construction. And so
one of that heings
has said is that, you know, again, if
a local center, oneants
of the things he would want to
see has to be union
built. That gets you support. And unions
are a part of how the
Democratic Party defines lf
as being a party the unions. And
unions are big part of how
Republicans have started to kind of make huge
inroads union question,ople.
I think, is onetapped and unanswered
so far. it seems like he's
also raised sort of the practical arguments
during the primary campaign that, look, putting a
moratorium on these things
is, is not going
to change ones
that are already the works, that there's
a lot of data are happening
or in development now
that a moratorium
just won't
solve. So
how are
we seeing
David Crowley
and his allies? I
guess you'd say
go after
Tom Tiffany in this
early stage, or
how is
he presenting
himself as a
candidate for governor
on TV
airwaves? >> Well, Tom
Tiffany is
splitting splitting the
baby. He's
doing a bitttle
of both. continuing his. I'm i
n. Every
man who thinks
of, you know,
your rural
farmland and your
local schools.
He's still somening
of those positive
ads to
try and define
himself. oft was one
his goals of the freedoms he
had of not having is heimary
could spend millions dollars trying to create
a brand for himself as a
Wisconsin guy, because
his brand
as a D.C.
congressman is
frankly toxic
in the national
political environment around. No one
wants to say,
I'm connected
to Donald
Trump Washington,
D.C. no
one from either
party really
likes that at this
very moment.
So he has to
build brand of
being from Wisconsin, and
he's got enough roots
to be able to and he's got the
support to do it, got the's
money to do it. at the same
time, he's negative ads,
going after theseall ofey
areas. Crowley on the flip side is and
his allies Democratic Governors
Association are doing hing
we expected to linking, which is
Tiffany to Trump national politicnd
s, that is their
route right to try and
connect those dots for voters
who understand
that, because
that is not a
winning formula
for Tom
Tiffany going into the
fall. Voters are thinking of
those two
together. >> And
and, you know, we
are now seeing it
was more aan
week after the David Crowley
running his first ad where
it's kind of
biographical, Democratic Governors
Association ads
were out right
away after the
primary and
kind of seemed
to to fill
that crucial
period when
you want to be
grabbing people's
attention, what does
it take for
one side
to win
this, this
definition war?
Anya and Zac? I
mean, it's kind an open question,
but maybe
it's a simple
answer. >> I
actually well, I
think it's sort of
a answer in that
the question nobody,
knows. Sure.
Every sort of,
you know,
political advertising
expert I've
ever spoken
to said,
you know,
nobody knows why
people choose
Colgate over crest or
crest over Colgate. But
people billions of
dollars oneat you pick
of those. And it's of the same
with when think,o Iting.
you know, we're we'renegative ads,
seeing the positive like we're seeing just
kind of a lot types oferent
messaging get what resonatese
with like a, Jung
annoyed, you know,
hung voter who
isn't quite
sure about
Crowley isn't
going to be the same thing
that resonates with just sort of like your
moderate person who
hasn't really
been paying attention, maybe didn't vote in
the vote intobut is
the general and in any election where the
difference might be 20,000 votes. As we often
see in you kind ofal
need to get a little bit of each
of those >> So, Shawn,
we've seen there's a phrasery
that this about, it talks
you. You can't win the election now, but
you mind,n your.
what is the losing move from either one
of could they dotes? Of
to really put in a hole going
into the fall? You know, one way
to do disappear.o
You know, if if David Crowley had had
no nollies had had
money and just been the air for
a couple of territory. Youous
know, when answersomebody to
the Tiffany
attacks, you get in
real thatuble
way. And so
I think
the one thing
you do is
you keep
hitting those ads.
The Colgate and
Crest isds
Sonya would
as she would
characterize them.
So that's one thing that
we've I think forem.
Tiffany, kinds also, though,
of a critical period because
when the thought
was this was going to be
a Hongny versus
race, which
was conventional
wisdom. You
know, a couple
weeks ago, you
had Republican
donors theound
country saying,
sign me
up. I
want to put money
into that race.
I want to
fight back democratic socialism.
And I want
a potential
win in a swing
state. In
a year when Republicans
could have
losses all
over the place.
I think
the conventional
wisdom right now is still
that this is
Wisconsin. Everything's
50/50 here. It's a
race for governor.
And so, yeah,
it's winnable
for Tom Tiffany,
but needs
to maintain
that perception that he
can win this
race. Because
once perception goes
the the money is
going to I with it,
got a more
important question.
What do think
about the way
these ads
look? How are the
candidates portrayed in
them when
they talk dataut
center? David
Crowley, you
know, the
visuals are very
striking in that
ad. >> Yeah.
And I especially
compared to, again, the sort of
pro Tiffany
ads, likech are all
sunshine and andckyards
pancakes and
his kind of,
you know, defining
himself ad is
him saying
like, I'll teach
your kids read
and I'll put
money in your pocket. And
a third promise
that was quite
pithy and remembering
right now as
compared to the kind of
doom and gloom of
this person's going to come
in steal yourndta
farm. And so it really is like these
tonal kind of gos. And as
between them, it is like even just
a Black andference of
white versus >>chnicolor.
Yeah. I mean, the Crowley thing reminds me,
okay, Anya, this is
a very
old reference, but
Max headroom, the,
the, know,
kind of apocalyptic
doom and
gloom vision of
the 1980s of
our future
where we got
kind of
this, like
kind of digital
background. And then
there's David
Crowley talking
up on stage. He
was You know, forum.
they obviously make itound to
look a little Zac, you
remember Obviously, you had
the same exact thought when
you watched that. I think of Max
headroom He would be a
podcaster today. He would be a television anchor.
I goingmediums
forward. >> Yeah, we
we just
hadn't figured out
where wass role
in the >>orld.
Yeah, that's a Google reference for all the
kids >>t. Max Headroom.
Yeah, I will also that.le
yeah. memoriesn
here. >> The
Democratic ads
attacking Crowley though
to me
it's funny.
They have to
portray the Tom Tiffany
that, you know,
that that
ads attacking
Tiffany missI
said that
they have to
portray the Tom
Tiffany and sou know,
the up on the screen they put
is the Tom Tiffany
from these where
he's like, you know,
I'm Mr. Wisconsin and
I'm pancakes
and, you
know, attending
a damn, you
name it.
>> One of them,
they do whichbolo tie look,
is interesting out brought that
early in the campaign
to, to get a
little of the thents element. But
he went away from
it polished.s
But one of those ads has
Tom in the
bolo tie,
which is an
interesting look,
because what is it
trying mean,ay? I
is that a Wisconsin look? Is that a
rural look? a rustic look?
And it's just when they
pick pick themngs, it's
apart. If you're bored and you like
to watch campaign s,
which who thinkthen Ime
that is one thing decide is how
do they candidate look
most appealing to theot
average voter,
versus how do
they portray
themselves? What kind of lighting
and are they
dressed? And I
think Tiffany's
wearing a jackett
in one of them.
He's of course, he's got his rural
connections. >> Well, and I
think that interesting point, which
is watch these political
ads. is likesally what
one peopleup and
change the channel, they try to get
out of whatever. And
so you need of all of those
frames, something. say
So another thing you see a lot
in these himtack ads is
next to Donald Trump because like, that's the
only thing that you one split
second, it's together inse
your mind. And is a win for
Democrats. unmistakable. They always
try to try the Tom, Tiffany,
Donald Trump, those are
that's like low hanging
fruit for
Democrats time. And
as theever as
data center ads
are for
Tom Tiffany,
it theght be
Democrats just need to
hit those go to points
over over
again in this
midterm election.
>> I have
another follow up question
for both of you.
And that is, how long will
Francesca Hong continue
to define this
election she's not
in it?
She set the
standard in the Democratic
primary. She was
the conversation,
and it's
her position
on data
centers that is
still defining
this race.
So how
much longer will
we see
her loom
over all of
this? >> Well,
and and
I think
probably till November,
she's out there
campaigning for David
Crowley right? I mean,
she's not just being a silent partner
here. She's out there
saying, I
support David
Crowley. You
should too.
And some of
her supporters
don't thatually care for
either. You
know, they're
kind of going
along reluctantly
or not at
all. So,
I mean, I
think it's that's goingg
to be going on for a while.
Yeah. And I think Democrats kind of
don't win does not fully kind
of throw her weight this. Because if
you lose nominationthe
by 3500 votes, she did, like that
is mandateand decisive
for David Crowley issueicularly on this
of data centers, I think there is
no that question, that
a huge why she did
kind stand out was
because she mostthe
standout stance on
that issue.
So if she wants
to kind of if
Democrats want her
voters to come
along, it's going
to need to
both revolve around
that issue and
also have
her as the
movement candidate,
not just kind
of the issues
that behind, but
her as this very
compelling figure to the
300, some odd
thousand people
who voted for kind of
get on board and certainly not stay home
on Well, and I think
you voters thatember
did stay with did that in the
face of worldsure in the
from ads, their own party members, a lot
of you sure abouts saying,
this vote? stuck with her. So
they weren't casual Hong voters. So where she
goes decide, well, how
many of tag along with her
and say, all right, believe in the
mission. But sheom the beginning
was on board to Tom Tiffany. And
she will be a crucial player
in this all the which isough,
fascinating to see much impact she's had
in this whole process. >> I'll tell you
one other knowt we don't
right now. As we here today, we
have the ads. seen them. We have
what they say they're to do in
terms of how big the reach of the
ads is. We know how much they're
going to spend on these ads.
And sometimes
just repetition
and bombarding
the state
with money is
what you need
in an
election like
this one for
governor. I
think that will
be a clue
that we'll see
over the coming
weeks. putting money
in this race and who's
not. That's
all the time for have
today. Rich colleague
, Rick Rich
Kremer. That's all the time
we have Rich Kremergue
will be back week. This has been
inside Wisconsin politics. sure to follow us
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