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campaign begins, the
candidates for governor

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look to define one another.
That includes Tom Tiffany

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attacking David Crowley on
data centers. This is

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inside Wisconsin politics.

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I'm Shawn Johnson here with
my colleagues Anya van

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Wagtendonk and Zac Schultz.
Hey, you two.

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>> Hello.
>> So it feels like ads are

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just always running in
Wisconsin, swing state,

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Wisconsin, where every
election is so important.

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But Ana, I wonder if there
is an argument to be made

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that the ads that are
running right now are

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potentially very critical
to the outcome of a race

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like the one we have for
governor.

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>> I mean, right. This is
sort of the pivot point. We

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are going from primary to
general, and especially in

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this particular instance,
where we had such a kind of

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crazy Democratic primary,
there's now two very clear

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candidates that are going
to be on the ballot. And so

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they are trying to define
themselves and they're

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trying to define one
another. And so right now,

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I think with all of that
momentum kind of coming out

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of the primary week, now is
the time that they have to

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turn to the entire state,
not just their party base,

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and say, this is who I am.
But more importantly,

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perhaps this is who that
other guy is. And here's

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why you don't want to vote
for him.

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>> Define or be defined.
Zac. It strikes me that

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these two candidates in
particular are maybe

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especially vulnerable to
that because they're not

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that well known.
statewide. And this is

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really their opportunity to
decide on what territory

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the election will be fought.
Will it be about for Tom

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Tiffany? His greatest fear
is this is an election on

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his connections to Donald
Trump and the national

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economy and affordability
or abortion, or any of

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those topics that he really
doesn't want to talk about.

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For David Crowley, it's
absolutely he doesn't want

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to have to talk about crime
rates, or he doesn't want

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to talk about some of the
executive decisions he's

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made in Milwaukee or some
of the history of that

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county, and especially
where he is on data centers.

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This is one of those pivot
points that Tom Tiffany is

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trying to say. Let's put
the race in that category,

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because I think that's an
area that people want to

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talk about, and I think I
can make it more favorable

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to myself, especially in
the sense that he's not

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well defined in that area.
Just as we were talking

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about, he's trying to
create the definition of

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where does Tom Tiffany
stand on data centers?

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Because it's not super
clear.

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>> Yeah. I mean, with the
caveat that we don't know

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how it's going to work and
neither does the Tiffany

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campaign. As far as wedge
issues go, it's fairly

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clever. This is a
relatively new issue to

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politics. So it's not
defined in the way that

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some other issues are. You
don't know exactly where

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the interest groups stand
with the parties. So Ana

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how is that playing out in
this attack from Tom

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Tiffany? How is he going
after David Crowley trying

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to frame him?
>> Yeah, I mean, he's

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trying to use his initials
against him. He's calling

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him Data Data Center. David
Crowley DC, DC as a way of

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trying to kind of tie him
to this. And the way he's

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doing it is in a slightly
convoluted way by saying

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that because David Crowley
hasn't pledged to kind of

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roll back these specific
tax incentives, that that

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makes him more pro data
center. David Crowley is

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also kind of trying to
split the difference a

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little bit and say, well, I
support local control. So

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communities that don't want
it don't have to have it. I

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would want, you know, sort
of tight controls and

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regulations in this kind of
thing. But the other kind

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of interesting piece of how
Tom Tiffany is handling

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this, so I went yesterday
to an endorsement

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announcement for these
environmental groups that

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are now backing David
Crowley. And of course,

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environmental concerns are
very tied up in people's

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concerns over data centers.
And part of the way that

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that Tom Tiffany is now
framing it is that data

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centers are taking away
farmland. And also because

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there's a push from
Democrats to have a

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sustainable energy, be sort
of the backbone of data

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centers. He's also now kind
of using it as a one, two,

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three punch of they're
trying to take farmland,

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not just to create data
centers, but also to create

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wind farms and solar farms.
And so he can kind of

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package it together in all
of these things that will

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speak to Republican voters,
Democrats obviously, like

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solar, like wind farms. And
so they'll have more of

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their work cut out for them
to kind of distinguish

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those issues.
seeing some social media

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appearances from Tom
and he's kind of framing it

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as data centers versus
farmland is maybe like a

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pretty transparent appeal
to rural voters in that

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instance.
>> It's doing so many

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things at the same time
because it is about his

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base and rural farmland.
One of his earliest ads

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months ago talked about how
prevent foreign countries

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from coming in and buying
up our farmland, which is

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an issue that does concern
people that are worried

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about the rising cost of
just trying to rent out a

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field to put crops in the
ground, as we've seen with

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all the international
tariffs affecting soybean

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and corn farmers, they're
looking for someone to

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blame. And if they're some
of the cognitive dissonance

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for them is they don't want
to blame Donald Trump. I've

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interviewed them, and they
don't really want to blame

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him and his decisions. So
if they Tom Tiffany says,

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well, it's not his fault.
It's over here. This is who

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you blame for your rising
costs. Well, they're more

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than happy to follow along
if they're if they're in

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that inclination to begin
with. So it's definitely a

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way to do that. But what's
another element that's

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fascinating is he's really
trying to split split off

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those Hong voters from
David Crowley and split the

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left, because we've seen
elections where the far

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left and progressive left
have sat out. Maybe not in

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huge numbers, but enough
numbers where potentially

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it does swing an election.
We saw that with Hillary

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Clinton. We saw that with
Kamala Harris, and they're

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trying to repeat that
pattern with David Crowley.

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If they can paint him as
more moderate, more

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corporate and less true,
far left than some of those

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voters may go third party
or just set all together.

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And that's one of the
concerns, is he has to

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watch his flank, even
though he won by being in

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the center.
>> That's definitely an

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open question for me,
especially because you at

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least get the impression
that a lot of Hong voters

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are maybe not a politics
first kind of voter. You

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know, they came to her
because she spoke to them

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in different ways, more of
a movement candidate. She

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would not want to identify
with Donald Trump, but a

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movement candidate in that
way. You get different

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people into the political
arena. And, you know, one

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question that I think some
of them had during the

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primary was, why don't more
Democrats just say what

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Francesca Hong is saying?
We're going to have a

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moratorium on data centers.
I like the sounds of that.

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Why wouldn't David Crowley
Ana just say, hey, let's

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let's put the brakes on
these. And this data center

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issue is all taken care of
for me politically.

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>> Well, politically
speaking, data centers are

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not popular. The vast
majority of voters,

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Democrats and Republicans,
don't support data centers,

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or they certainly don't
support them sort of coming

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into their own communities.
But there is a real kind of

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question around the types
of jobs that they can bring

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in, the kind of economic
development possibilities

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there. And so I think like
as a politician, you don't

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necessarily want to say,
you know, categorically, I

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will not support a thing
that could be a driver of

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economic growth, especially
in some of these kind of

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hard hit places in
Wisconsin that are kind of

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hurting for economic
opportunities. You know,

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another piece of this, too,
is that a lot of the the

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data center, a lot of the
unions that Bakke David

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Crowley are involved in
data center construction.

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And so one of the things
that he has said is that,

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you know, again, if a local
community wants a data

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center, one of the things
that he would want to see

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is that it has to be union
built. That gets you union

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support. And unions are a
pretty big part of how the

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Democratic Party defines
the unions. And unions are

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a pretty big part of how
Republicans have started to

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kind of make huge inroads
with working people. So the

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union question, I think, is
an untapped and unanswered

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one so far.
>> And it seems like he's

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also raised sort of just
the practical arguments

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during the primary campaign
that, look, putting a

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moratorium on these things
is, is not going to change

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the ones that are already
in the works, that there's

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a lot of data centers that
are happening or in

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development now that a
moratorium just won't solve.

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So how are we seeing David
Crowley and his allies? I

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guess you'd say go after
Tom Tiffany in this early

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stage, or how is he
presenting himself as a

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candidate for governor on
TV airwaves?

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>> Well, Tom Tiffany is
splitting splitting the

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baby. He's doing a little
bit of both. He's still

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continuing his. I'm in.
Every man who thinks of,

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you know, your rural
farmland and your local

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schools. He's still running
some of those positive ads

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to try and define himself.
That was one of his goals

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and one of the freedoms he
had of not having a primary

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is he could spend millions
of dollars trying to create

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a brand for himself as a
Wisconsin guy, because his

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brand as a D.C. congressman
is frankly toxic in the

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national political
environment around. No one

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wants to say, I'm deeply
connected to Donald Trump

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in Washington, D.C. no one
from either party really

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likes that at this very
moment. So he has to build

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a brand of being from
Wisconsin, and he's got

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enough roots to be able to
do it, and he's got the

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support to do it, and he's
got the money to do it. And

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at the same time, he's
starting to run his

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negative ads, going after
David Crowley and all of

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these areas. Crowley on the
flip side is and his allies

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we've seen from the
Democratic Governors

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Association are doing
have happen, which is

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linking Tiffany to Trump
and international and

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national politics, because
that is their route right

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now, is to try and connect
those dots for voters who

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may not understand that,
because that is not a

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winning formula for Tom
Tiffany going into the fall.

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Voters are thinking of
those two together.

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>> And and, you know, we
are now seeing it was more

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than a week after the
primary, David Crowley

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running his first ad where
it's kind of biographical,

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the Democratic Governors
Association ads were out

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right away after the
primary and kind of seemed

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to to fill that crucial
period when you want to be

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grabbing people's attention,
what does it take for one

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side to win this, this
definition war? Anya and

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Zac? I mean, it's kind of
an open question, but maybe

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it's a simple answer.
>> I actually well, I think

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it's sort of a simple
answer in that the question

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is like, nobody knows. Sure.
Every sort of, you know,

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political advertising
expert I've ever spoken to

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has said, you know, nobody
knows why people choose

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Colgate over crest or crest
over Colgate. But people

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spend billions of dollars
to make sure that you pick

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one of those. And it's sort
of the same with when

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you're voting. And so I
think, you know, we're

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seeing the negative ads,
we're seeing the positive

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ads, like we're seeing just
kind of a lot of different

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types of messaging get
thrown out there. Because

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what resonates with like a,
a Jung annoyed, you know,

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hung voter who isn't quite
sure about Crowley isn't

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going to be the same thing
that resonates with just

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sort of like your moderate
person who hasn't really

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been paying attention,
maybe didn't vote in the

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primary, but is going to
vote in the general and in

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any election where the
difference might be 20,000

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votes. As we often see in
these general elections,

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you kind of need to get a
little bit of each of those

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types of people.
>> So, Shawn, we've seen

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throughout history that
there's a phrase that this

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time of year, it talks
about you. You can't win

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the election now, but you
can lose it. So in your

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mind, what is the losing
move from either one of

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these candidates? Of what
could they do to really put

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themselves in a hole going
into the fall?

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it would just be to
disappear. You know, if if

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David Crowley had had no
money or his allies had had

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no money and just been off
the air for a couple of

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weeks, that's dangerous
territory. You know, when

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you don't have somebody to
answer the Tiffany attacks,

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you get in real trouble
that way. And so I think

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the one thing you do is you
just keep hitting those ads.

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The Colgate and Crest ads
is Sonya would as she would

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characterize them. So
that's one thing that we've

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seen from them. I think for
Tiffany, it's also, though,

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kind of a critical period
because when the thought

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was this was going to be a
Tiffany versus Hong race,

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which was conventional
wisdom. You know, a couple

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weeks ago, you had
Republican donors around

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the country saying, sign me
up. I want to put money

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into that race. I want to
fight back democratic

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socialism. And I want a
potential win in a swing

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state. In a year when
Republicans could have

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losses all over the place.
I think the conventional

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wisdom right now is still
that this is Wisconsin.

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Everything's 50/50 here.
It's a race for governor.

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And so, yeah, it's winnable
for Tom Tiffany, but he

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needs to maintain that
perception that he can win

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this race. Because once
that perception goes the

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way the money is going to
go with it, I got a more

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important question. What do
we think about the way

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these ads look? How are the
candidates portrayed in

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them when they talk about
data center? David Crowley,

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you know, the visuals are
very striking in that ad.

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>> Yeah. And I mean,
especially compared to,

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again, the sort of pro Tom
Tiffany ads, which are all

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like sunshine and backyards
and pancakes and his latest

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kind of, you know, defining
himself ad is him saying

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like, I'll teach your kids
to read and I'll put money

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in your pocket. And a third
promise that was quite

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pithy and I'm not
remembering right now as

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compared to the kind of
doom and gloom of this

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person's going to come in
and build data centers and

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steal your farm. And so it
really is like these tonal

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differences. And as you
kind of go between them, it

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really is like even just a
color difference of sort of

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Black and white versus
Technicolor.

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>> Yeah. I mean, the
Crowley thing reminds me,

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okay, Anya, this is a very
old reference, but Max

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headroom, the, the, you
know, kind of apocalyptic

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doom and gloom vision of
the 1980s of our future

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where we got kind of this,
like kind of digital

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background. And then
there's David Crowley

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talking up on stage. He was
at a Journal Sentinel forum.

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You know, they obviously
doctored the background to

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make it look a little
techno. Zac, you remember

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that? Obviously, you had
the same exact thought when

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you watched that.
all the time. He would be a

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podcaster today. He would
be a television anchor. I

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think he was new medium
going forward.

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>> Yeah, we we just hadn't
figured out where his role

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was in the world.
>> Yeah, that's a Google

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reference for all the kids
watching.

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>> Yeah, I will also Google
that.

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>> Old man memories here.
>> The Democratic ads

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attacking Crowley though to
me it's funny. They have to

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portray the Tom Tiffany
that, you know, that that

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ads attacking Tiffany if I
miss said that they have to

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portray the Tom Tiffany
that you know, and so the

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Tom Tiffany that they put
up on the screen is the Tom

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Tiffany from these ads
where he's like, you know,

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I'm Mr. Wisconsin and I'm
having pancakes and, you

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know, attending a damn, you
name it.

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>> One of them, they do
have his bolo tie look,

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which is interesting
because he, he brought that

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out early in the campaign
to, to get a little of the

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rural roots element. But
then he went away from it

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as his ads got more
polished. But one of those

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00:14:03,177 --> 00:14:07,414
attack ads has Tom in the
bolo tie, which is an

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00:14:07,481 --> 00:14:09,683
interesting look, because
what is it trying to say? I

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mean, is that a Wisconsin
look? Is that a rural look?

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Is that a rustic look? And
it's just when they pick

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those things, it's fun to
pick them apart. If you're

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really bored and you like
to watch campaign

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doesn't? Come on, then I
think that is one thing to

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00:14:23,463 --> 00:14:25,465
decide is how do they
decide what makes this

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00:14:25,532 --> 00:14:27,467
candidate look most
ridiculous and not

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appealing to the average
voter, versus how do they

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portray themselves? What
kind of lighting and how

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00:14:31,672 --> 00:14:33,707
are they dressed? And I
think Tiffany's wearing a

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00:14:33,774 --> 00:14:36,543
Carhartt jacket in one of
them. He's of course, he's

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got his rural connections.
>> Well, and I think that

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actually raises an
interesting point, which is

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that normal people don't
watch these political ads.

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And actually what happens
is like one pops up and

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00:14:44,818 --> 00:14:47,588
people change the channel,
or they try to get out of

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that YouTube page or
whatever. And so you need

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00:14:49,890 --> 00:14:52,860
kind of all of those frames,
all of those images to say

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00:14:52,926 --> 00:14:55,762
something. So another thing
that you see a lot in these

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00:14:55,829 --> 00:14:58,532
Tom Tiffany attack ads is
him next to Donald Trump

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00:14:58,599 --> 00:15:00,601
because like, that's the
only thing that you see for

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00:15:00,667 --> 00:15:02,836
one split second, it's
putting those two people

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together in your mind. And
that is a win for Democrats.

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00:15:05,806 --> 00:15:07,641
>> Yeah, yeah. That's
unmistakable. They always

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00:15:07,708 --> 00:15:10,210
try to try the extreme mega
Tom, Tiffany, Donald Trump,

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those are that's like low
hanging fruit for Democrats

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00:15:13,514 --> 00:15:16,350
this time. And as clever as
the data center ads are for

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00:15:16,416 --> 00:15:19,486
Tom Tiffany, it might be
the Democrats just need to

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hit those go to points over
and over again in this

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midterm election.
>> I have another follow up

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00:15:24,791 --> 00:15:27,561
question for both of you.
And that is, how long will

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00:15:27,628 --> 00:15:29,463
Francesca Hong continue to
define this election when

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00:15:29,530 --> 00:15:32,366
she's not in it? She set
the standard in the

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00:15:32,432 --> 00:15:34,401
Democratic primary. She was
the conversation, and now

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00:15:34,468 --> 00:15:37,271
it's her position on data
centers that is still

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00:15:37,337 --> 00:15:40,541
defining this race. So how
much longer will we see her

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loom over all of this?
>> Well, and and I think

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00:15:45,145 --> 00:15:46,880
probably till November,
she's out there campaigning

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00:15:46,947 --> 00:15:50,117
for David Crowley now,
right? I mean, she's not

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00:15:50,184 --> 00:15:53,854
just being a silent partner
saying, I support David

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Crowley. You should too.
And some of her supporters

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don't actually care for
that either. You know,

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they're kind of going along
reluctantly or not at all.

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So, I mean, I think it's
going to be something

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00:16:03,964 --> 00:16:07,534
that's going to be going on
for a while.

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00:16:08,035 --> 00:16:10,904
Democrats kind of don't win
if she does not fully kind

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00:16:10,971 --> 00:16:12,906
of throw her weight behind
this. Because if you lose

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by if you lose the
nomination by 3500 votes,

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as she did, like that is
not a a clear and decisive

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00:16:18,212 --> 00:16:20,147
mandate for David Crowley
and particularly on this

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00:16:20,214 --> 00:16:22,950
issue of data centers,
which I think there is no

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00:16:23,016 --> 00:16:25,085
question that she defined
that question, that a huge

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00:16:25,152 --> 00:16:28,055
part of why she did kind of
stand out was because she

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00:16:28,121 --> 00:16:31,592
took the most standout
stance on that issue. So if

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she wants to kind of if
Democrats want her voters

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00:16:34,628 --> 00:16:37,030
to come along, it's going
to need to both revolve

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00:16:37,097 --> 00:16:40,367
around that issue and also
have her as the movement

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00:16:40,434 --> 00:16:42,436
candidate, not just kind of
the issues that she stood

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00:16:42,503 --> 00:16:44,972
behind, but her as this
very compelling figure to

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00:16:45,038 --> 00:16:47,841
the 300, some odd thousand
people who voted for her to

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00:16:47,908 --> 00:16:50,644
kind of get on board and
certainly not stay home on

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00:16:50,711 --> 00:16:53,981
Election Day.
have to remember that those

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00:16:54,047 --> 00:16:56,817
voters that did stay with
her did that in the face of

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00:16:56,884 --> 00:16:59,720
all the pressure in the
world from ads, their own

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00:16:59,786 --> 00:17:01,788
party members, a lot of
their neighbors saying, are

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00:17:01,855 --> 00:17:04,791
you sure about this vote?
And they stuck with her. So

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00:17:04,858 --> 00:17:06,760
they weren't casual Hong
voters. So where she goes

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00:17:06,827 --> 00:17:08,829
through the fall could
decide, well, how many of

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00:17:08,896 --> 00:17:11,865
those do tag along with her
and say, all right, I

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00:17:11,932 --> 00:17:14,067
believe in the mission. But
she said from the beginning

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00:17:14,134 --> 00:17:17,004
she was on board to defeat
Tom Tiffany. And she will

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00:17:17,070 --> 00:17:19,973
need to be a crucial player
in this all the way through,

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00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:22,709
which is fascinating to see
how much impact she's had

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00:17:22,776 --> 00:17:24,912
in this whole process.
>> I'll tell you one other

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00:17:24,978 --> 00:17:27,814
wild card that we don't
know right now. As we speak

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00:17:27,881 --> 00:17:30,751
here today, we have the ads.
We've seen them. We have

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00:17:30,817 --> 00:17:33,820
what they say they're going
to do in terms of how big

396
00:17:33,887 --> 00:17:36,657
the reach of the ads is. We
don't know how much they're

397
00:17:36,723 --> 00:17:39,593
going to spend on these ads.
And sometimes just

398
00:17:39,660 --> 00:17:43,297
repetition and bombarding
the state with money is

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00:17:43,363 --> 00:17:46,166
what you need in an
election like this one for

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00:17:46,233 --> 00:17:49,703
governor. I think that will
be a clue that we'll see

401
00:17:49,770 --> 00:17:51,972
over the coming weeks.
Who's really putting money

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00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:54,675
in this race and who's not.
That's all the time we have

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00:17:54,741 --> 00:17:56,844
for today. Our colleague
Rich Kremer will be back

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00:17:56,910 --> 00:18:01,448
next week. This has been
inside Wisconsin politics.

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00:18:01,515 --> 00:18:03,684
wisconsin.org. WPR.org,
YouTube, or wherever you

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00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:05,552
get your podcasts.