% >> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY."
% I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
% JOURNALIST FOR "MERE -- HERE AND
% NOW" ON PBS WISCONSIN.
% IT'S JANUARY 26TH.
% THEDACARE FILED FOR A TEMPORARY
% RESTRAINING ORDER LAST WEEK TO
% TRY AND PREVENT SEVEN
% SPECIALIZED HEALTH WORKERS FROM
% STARTING NEW JOBS AT COMPETING
% HEALTH SYSTEM ASCENSION.
% ARGUING THE EMPLOYEES LEAVING
% DURING THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC
% HEALTH CRISIS WOULD RISK THE
% SAFETY OF PATIENTS.
% NOW, THIS STORY HAS RECEIVED
% NATIONAL ATTENTION OVER THE
% WEEKEND AS HEALTH SYSTEMS
% CONTINUE TO BE OVERWHELMED BY
% THE PANDEMIC AND YET, OUR
% HEMORRHAGING WORKERS WHO ARE
% QUITTING OR FINDING BETTER
% OPPORTUNITIES.%SO JOINING ME
TO DISCUSS HER
% REPORTING ON THIS IS MADELINE
% HEIM, A HEALTH REPORTER FOR THE
% "APPLETON POST-CRESCENT" AND THE
% "USA TODAY" NETWORK AND THANK
% YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
% >> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING
% ME.
% >> NOW, YOU RECEIVED COMMENT
% FROM THEDACARE LATE LAST WEEK,
% CAN YOU DESCRIBE WHAT THEY WERE
% ARGUING IN ISSUING THIS
% TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER AND
% WHAT THEY TOLD YOU?
% >> YEAH SO THEDACARE LAST
% THURSDAY FILED FOR A TEMPORARY
% RESTRAINING ORDER AGAINST
% ASCENSION WHICH IS THE OTHER
% HOSPITAL IN APPLETON FOR TRYING
% TO -- WHAT THEY WERE ARGUING WAS
% TRYING TO GROUP RECRUIT THOSE
% SEVEN EMPLOYEES AWAY AT ONCE.
% IN THE COMPLAINT, THEY DESCRIBED
% IT AS COACHING AND THOSE SEVEN
% EMPLOYEES ARE PART OF AN
% 11-MEMBER TEAM THAT, LIKE YOU
% SAID IS SPECIALIZED.
% THEY DO INTERVENTIONAL RADIOLOGY
% THAT COMES INTO PLAY WITH TRAUMA
% AND STROKE PATIENTS SO THEDACARE
% INITIALLY WAS ARGUING THAT, YOU
% KNOW, NOT ONLY DID ASCENSION
% SEEK TO TAKE THESE WORKERS AWAY
% ALL AT THE SAME TIME WHICH WILL
% LEAVE THEM WITH ONLY FOUR OUT OF
% 11 TEAM MEMBERS LEFT ON THAT
% TEAM, BUT IT ALSO CAME, LIKE YOU
% SAID, DURING A REALLY STRESSFUL
% TIME FOR HEALTH CARE WHEN, YOU
% KNOW, EVERYONE IS LOOKING FOR
% MORE WORKERS.
% EVERYNE IS LOSING WORKERS.
% AND SO THEY HAD FILED THAT
% TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER TO
% ASK THE COURT TO INTERVENE AND
% BLOCK THOSE WORKERS TEMPORARILY
% FROM LEAVING THEDACARE OR BLOCK
% THEM FROM STARTING AT ASCENSION
% TO GIVE THEDACARE ENOUGH TIME TO
% FIND REPLACEMENTS.
% >> AND AS WE KNOW, MANY
% BUSINESSES, INCLUDING HEALTH
% CARE, WILL REQUIRE EMPLOYEES TO
% SIGN CONTRACTS THAT INCLUDE
% NON-COMPETE CLAUSES.
% BUT IN THIS CASE, THESE WERE AT
% WILL EMPLOYEES MEANING THEY HAD
% NO CONTRACT, NO OBLIGATION TO
% STAY WITH THEDACARE OR TO
% PREVENT THEM FROM SEEKING
% EMPLOYMENT EVEN WITH A
% COMPETITOR.%IS THAT CORRECT?
% >> THAT IS CORRECT.
% THEY WERE ALL AT WILL EMPLOYEES,
% THEY ALL WERE FREE TO TAKE JOBS
% ELSEWHERE AND THAT IS ONE THING
% THAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE
% COURTROOM, THEDACARE LAWYERS DID
% SAY IS, YOU KNOW, WE'RE FINE
% WITH THEM SEEKING JOBS
% ELSEWHERE.
% THEY TOOK ISSUE MORE WITH
% ASCENSION, YOU KNOW, TAKING THEM
% ALL AT ONCE.
% BUT, YOU KNOW, THE INTERESTING
% THING IS THAT THESE EMPLOYEES
% ALL CAME UPON THE JOB POSTINGS
% FROM ASCENSION SO ASCENSION HAD
% NOT -- THEY ARGUED THEY HAD NOT
% REACHED OUT AND TRIED TO TAKE
% ALL THESE REPORTERS AT ONCE,
% THAT, YOU KNOW, IT STARTED WITH
% ONE EMPLOYEE WHO, YOU KNOW,
% RECEIVED AN OFFER AND LIKED THE
% BENEFITS AND THE PAY.
% AND THEN SHE TOLD THE REST OF
% HER TEAM.
% AND YOU KNOW, IT KIND OF WENT
% FROM THERE.
% SO NO, THEY WERE NOT UNDER ANY
% CONTRACT AND THEY WERE FREE TO
% LEAVE.
% >> NOW, BECAUSE OF THE URGENCY
% OF THEDACARE'S ACTION ON THE
% SURFACE, IT APPEARED AS IF ALL
% OF THIS WAS HAPPENING REALLY
% SUDDENLY BUT YOUR REPORTING
% FOUND THAT THESE EMPLOYEES
% ACTUALLY GAVE PLENTY OF NOTICE
% TO THEDACARE AND EVEN AN
% OPPORTUNITY TO COUNTER
% ASCENSION'S OFFER, IS THAT %
RIGHT?
% >> YEAH, THAT IS.
% SO IN THE COURT PROCEEDINGS, WE
% GOT KIND OF A DETAILED ACCOUNT
% OF THE TIMELINE OF THIS ISSUE
% AND THE FIRST EMPLOYEE WHO HAD
% APPLIED FOR A JOB AT ASCENSION
% WAS DOING THAT WORK, YOU KNOW,
% AT THE END OF NOVEMBER, EARLY
% DECEMBER.%AND THEN ON DECEMB
ER 21ST WAS
% WHEN THEY HAD ALL ACTUALLY
% RECEIVED THEIR OFFERS AND THEY
% TOOK THOSE OFFERS TO THEDACARE
% AND SAID, YOU KNOW, WOULD YOU BE
% WILLING TO MATCH THIS?
% AND THEDACARE TOOK ABOUT A WEEK
% AND THEN CAME BACK AND,
% ACCORDING TO THE EMPLOYEES, SAID
% NO.
% ACTUALLY, THE QUOTE THAT WAS
% MENTIONED SEVERAL TIMES IN THE
% PROCEEDINGS WAS THAT THE SHORT
% TERM COST RIGHT NOW TO THEDACARE
% WAS NOT WORTH THE LONG TERM
% EXPENSE OF PAYING THEM MORE.
% SO FROM THAT POINT FORWARD, YOU
% KNOW, THEY PUT IN THEIR
% RESIGNATION AND THEN A COUPLE OF
% OTHER NURSES DID THE SAME THING
% AND, YEAH, IT ENDED UP BEING,
% YOU KNOW, THERE WERE A FEW WEEKS
% IN BETWEEN WHEN THEDACARE HAD,
% YOU KNOW, DECIDED NOT TO MATCH
% THE OFFER AND WHEN THEY FILED
% THE LEGAL ACTION.
% AND THEY SAY THAT THEY, YOU
% KNOW, TRIED TO MEET WITH
% ASCENSION AND, YOU KNOW, DISCUSS
% A SOLUTION THAT WOULDN'T HAVE
% BROUGHT THEM TO THE COURTROOM
% BUT THAT ULTIMATELY DID NOT %
WORK.
% >> NOW, A COUNTY JUDGE DID
% INITIALLY GRANT THE RESTRAINING
% ORDER LATE LAST WEEK.
% WHY DID HE ALLOW IT?
% AND DID IT HOLD?
% >> YEAH, SO THE JUDGE MARK
% McGINNESS HEARD THAT CASE.
% HE SIGNED THAT TEMPORARY
% RESTRAINING ORDER RIGHT AWAY ON
% FRIDAY OR THURSDAY NIGHT.
% IT WAS RELATIVELY SOON AFTER.
% AND HE SAID THAT HE SIGNED IT
% BECAUSE OF THE, YOU KNOW,
% PERCEIVED GRAVE DANGER TO PUBLIC
% SAFETY THAT THEDACARE ALLEGED IN
% THEIR COMPLAINT AND THEY WERE
% ALLEGING THAT, YOU KNOW, IF WE
% LOSE THESE TEAM MEMBERS ALL AT
% ONCE, THERE WON'T BE ENOUGH CARE
% IN FOX VALLEY TO CARE FOR STROKE
% AND TRAUMA VICTIMS.
% SO MARK McGINNISS SAID HE
% THOUGHT THAT WAS PRETTY SERIOUS
% AND WANTED TO GET IT ON THE
% CALENDAR RIGHT AWAY.
% HE SIGNED THAT RESTRAINING ORDER
% NOT FOR THE FULL 90 DAYS THAT
% THEDACARE HAD INITIALLY ASKED
% FOR THE WORKERS TO NOT WORK AT
% ASCENSION.%HE WAS AIMING TO H
AVE THEM WRAP
% IT UP IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME
% OVER THE WEEKEND AND SO THE
% WORKERS COULD GO TO WORK ON
% MONDAY.
% SO HE HAD SIGNED IT BUT ASKED
% THE TWO PARTIES TO TALK AND TRY
% TO COME TO A SOLUTION.
% UNFORTUNATELY, THAT DID NOT
% HAPPEN SO THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO
% GO TO WORK ON MONDAY.
% THEY WERE ALL IN THE COURTROOM
% ON MONDAY.
% HOWEVER, THAT ORDER WAS
% ULTIMATELY DISMISSED BY THE
% JUDGE ON MONDAY AND THEY WERE
% ABLE TO REPORT TO WORK ON
% TUESDAY.
% SO THE LARGER CASE WILL KEEP
% GOING FORWARD BUT THE TEMPORARY
% RESTRAINING ORDER WAS DISMISSED.
% >> AND THAT GETS TO MY NEXT
% QUESTION.
% WHERE DO THINGS STAND NOW AND
% WHAT DOES FURTHER ACTION FROM
% EITHER SIDE LOOK LIKE?
% AND YOU SAY THE TEMPORARY
% RESTRAINING ORDER IS NO LONGER
% IN EFFECT BUT THERE'S A LARGER
% CASE.%WHAT'S IN THE LARGER C
ASE?
% >> SO IT'S A LITTLE UNCLEAR IN
% THIS CASE.
% THEDACARE IS GOING TO TRY TO
% ARGUE THAT ASCENSION DID
% SOMETHING WRONG IN TRYING TO
% TAKE ALL THOSE EMPLOYEES AT
% ONCE.
% AND ON ASCENSION'S END, THEY
% WERE GROUP RECRUITING SOMEHOW
% AND, YOU KNOW, DECIDED TO TAKE
% THEM ALL AT ONCE KNOWING THAT
% WOULD KIND OF DEBILITATE
% THEDACARE'S TEAM.
% WE DON'T KNOW MUCH ABOUT, YOU
% KNOW, THE SPECIFICS OF WHEN THAT
% IS GOING TO PLAY OUT OR EVEN
% KIND OF WHAT THE LEGAL REMEDY IS
% TO THAT.
% THAT ALL KIND OF REMAINS TO BE
% SEEN.
% BUT, YEAH, THE EMPLOYEES WERE
% ABLE TO GO TO WORK SO THEY ARE
% NOW ASCENSION EMPLOYEES AND, YOU
% KNOW, FAIR TO GET PAID FOR THEIR
% WORK NOW.
% >> I HEARD YOU USE THE PHRASE
% GROUP RECRUITING A COUPLE OF
% TIMES.
% IS THAT SOMETHING IN AND OF
% ITSELF IS ILLEGAL OR ACTIONABLE?
% OR ARE THEY JUST TRYING TO ARGUE
% MORE ON THE PUBLIC HEALTH SIDE?
% THIS IS, AS YOU SAID,
% DEBILITATING THEDACARE?
% >> YEAH, I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE.
% I AM LOOKING TO SPEAK WITH SOME
% LEGAL EXPERTS IN THE NEXT COUPLE
% OF DAYS TO KIND OF FIGURE OUT
% EXACTLY WHERE THE LEGAL ARGUMENT
% LIES.
% BUT THAT PUBLIC HEALTH COMPONENT
% IS REALLY SOMETHING THAT THEY
% ARE PUSHING, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE
% SAYING THAT IN NORMAL TIMES, YOU
% KNOW, EMPLOYEES SWITCH BETWEEN
% THOSE SYSTEMS ALL THE TIME.
% WE REGULARLY SEE PEOPLE GOING IN
% BOTH DIRECTIONS FROM BOTH ST.
% ELIZABETH AND THEDACARE.
% BUT THEY'RE BASICALLY SAYING
% THAT, YOU KNOW, DOING IT DURING
% THE PANDEMIC WHEN EVERYONE IS
% INCREDIBLY SHORT STAFFED AND,
% YOU KNOW, JUST REALLY, REALLY
% HURTING FOR WORK IS, YOU KNOW,
% ESPECIALLY KIND OF DIFFICULT AND
% PUTS THEM IN AN ESPECIALLY
% DIFFICULT POSITION.
% >> NOW, HAVE YOU, IN YOUR
% REPORTING, COME ACROSS OTHER
% CASES LIKE THIS THAT, YOU KNOW,
% THEDACARE MIGHT BE ABLE TO POINT
% TO OR IS THIS SOMETHING THAT'S
% BRAND NEW?
% >> YEAH, I HAVE NOT, ALTHOUGH I
% DON'T WANT TO SAY THAT, YOU
% KNOW, IT'S NEVER HAPPENED.
% I'M NOT EXACTLY SURE ABOUT THAT.
% I DON'T THINK AT LEAST HERE IN
% THE FOX VALLEY WE'VE SEEN
% ANYTHING LIKE THIS.
% AGAIN, I THINK IT SPEAKS TO THE
% STRESS OF THE PANDEMIC AND THE
% STRESS OF, YOU KNOW, HOSPITALS
% ALREADY BEING SO SHORT STAFFED
% AND HAVING TO RELY ON, YOU KNOW,
% THINGS LIKE TRAVELING NURSE
% AGENCIES AND THINGS TO GET BY.
% I THINK THAT'S REALLY, YOU KNOW,
% WHERE THIS LAWSUIT IS COMING
% FROM BECAUSE THEDACARE AND
% ASCENSION DO HAVE A REPUTATION
% HERE, YOU KNOW, FOR WORKING
% TOGETHER.%AND THEY'VE WORKED
TOGETHER
% THROUGH A LOT OF THE PANDEMIC
% AND KIND OF SHARED SERVICES.
% AND SO THIS WAS, YOU KNOW, AT
% LEAST FROM MY VANTAGE POINT, A
% LITTLE UNPRECEDENTED BECAUSE
% THEY DO USUALLY TRY TO WORK
% TOGETHER.
% BUT I THINK IT'S JUST REALLY
% INDICATIVE OF, YOU KNOW, OF
% BREAKING POINT IN THAT, YOU
% KNOW, PEOPLE ARE SO, YOU KNOW,
% LOOKING FOR STAFF.
% IT'S GETTING REALLY CHALLENGING.
% >> IT'S ALSO KIND OF INDICATIVE
% OF, YOU KNOW, HEALTH CARE BEING
% IN A BUSINESS MODEL,
% ENCAPSULATES THIS MASSIVE
% STRUGGLE BETWEEN, AS WE'VE
% TALKED ABOUT, THE HEALTH CARE
% SHORTAGE OF EMPLOYEES ACROSS THE
% BOARD.%NOT EVEN JUST HIGHLY S
PECIALIZED
% WORKERS BUT NURSES, TOO, IN A
% PUBLIC HEALTH CRISIS BUT
% CRUSHING SYSTEMS.
% AND AS YOU'VE SAID, YOU KNOW,
% THEDACARE WAS ARGUING THAT THE
% SHORT TERM COST DOESN'T JUSTIFY
% THE LONG TERM COST AND THAT'S
% ALSO PLAYING OUT WITH NURSES AS
% WELL.
% NURSES ARE ASKING FOR RAISES.
% THEY'RE NOT GETTING IT.
% AND WITH THAT SAME ARGUMENT AND
% SO THEY QUIT AND BECOME
% TRAVELING NURSES WHICH PAYS A
% LOT MORE MONEY.
% AND THEN SYSTEMS, IN TURN, ARE
% WILLING TO PAY THAT MUCH MORE
% MONEY FOR A MORE SHORT TERM
% CONTRACTED EMPLOYEE.
% AND IT SEEMS LIKE MORE AND MORE
% OF THESE, AS YOU DESCRIBED IT,
% BREAKING POINTS ARE HAPPENING.
% >> YEAH, I THINK SO.
% AND ONE POINT THAT I REALLY KIND
% OF WANTED TO MAKE IS THAT, YOU
% KNOW, LIKE YOU SAID, WE HAVE,
% YOU KNOW, THE SITUATION THAT,
% YOU KNOW, THEY SAID THAT THE
% SHORT TERM COSTS WEREN'T WORTH
% THE LONG TERM EXPENSE.
% BUT NOW, THEY WILL BE PAYING --
% THE LONG TERM EXPENSE OR, YOU
% KNOW, THE SHORT TERM COST WILL
% BE PRETTY HIGH BECAUSE NOW,
% THEY'VE GOT TO PAY OTHER
% EMPLOYEES BONUSES.
% SOMETIMES BONUSES ON TOP OF
% BONUSES TO, YOU KNOW, WORK EXTRA
% SHIFTS TO COVER THESE, YOU KNOW,
% THESE OPEN POSITIONS.
% THEY ALSO MENTIONED IN THE COURT
% THEY HAVE HIRED A VENDOR TO COME
% IN AND TRAIN SOME OF THEIR
% EMPLOYEES WHO DO SIMILAR JOBS
% BUT NOT QUITE THE SAME.
% ON HOW TO DO THOSE SPECIFIC
% ROLES, AND THAT VENDOR WAS
% COSTING THEM $11,000.
% SO, YOU KNOW, THE SHORT TERM
% COST IS GOING TO END UP BEING
% PRETTY HIGH FOR THEDACARE JUST
% BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, OF THE
% SITUATION THAT THE WHOLE WORLD,
% WHOLE HEALTH CARE WORLD IS IN
% RIGHT NOW.
% >> AND NOT TO MENTION, THE LEGAL
% EXPENSE OF NOW A FUTURE BATTLE,
% AS YOU'VE DESCRIBED.
% SO, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE
% DAY, HEALTH SYSTEMS ARE A
% BUSINESS.
% SO COULD WE SEE THIS POSSIBLY
% SETTING A NEW PRECEDENT, DO YOU
% THINK POTENTIALLY THIS COULD
% OPEN THE DOOR FOR MORE CASES
% LIKE THIS TO BE HAPPENING AS THE
% BREAKING POINT CONTINUES TO BE,
% YOU KNOW, REACHED EVERY DAY
% ACROSS THE COUNTRY?
% >> YEAH, YOU KNOW, I'M NOT
% REALLY SURE AND I DO HOPE TO ASK
% SOME OF THE LEGAL EXPERTS THAT
% I'M TALKING TO ABOUT THAT.
% BUT I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW,
% WE'LL DEFINITELY KEEP SEEING THE
% ROOT OF THIS ISSUE WHICH WAS
% THAT EMPLOYEES, YOU KNOW, WHO
% HAD WORKED REALLY HARD WANTED A
% BETTER WORK/LIFE BALANCE AND
% THEY, YOU KNOW, DECIDED TO GO
% GET IT INSTEAD OF, YOU KNOW,
% STAYING WHERE THEY WERE, WHERE
% THEY WEREN'T AS HAPPY.
% I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, AS
% YOU SAID, HEALTH CARE IS A
% BUSINESS AND, YOU KNOW, IF IT'S
% GOING TO BE RUN LIKE A BUSINESS,
% THAT'S GOING TO KEEP HAPPENING
% AND SO, I THINK IT REMAINS TO BE
% SEEN WHETHER OR NOT, YOU KNOW,
% HEALTH CARE COMPANIES WILL WANT
% TO TAKE THAT TO COURT LIKE
% THEDACARE DID.
% BUT I THINK THE ROOT OF THE
% ISSUE IS DEFINITELY GOING TO
% KEEP HAPPENING.
% I THINK WE'RE DEFINITELY GOING
% TO SEE THAT GOING FORWARD.
% >> WELL, IT'S VERY INTERESTING
% TOPIC, AND GREAT REPORTING.
% IF YOU WANT TO SEE MADELINE
% HEIM'S REPORTING, IT'S AT THE
% "APPLETON POST-CRESCENT", ALSO
% PART OF THE "USA TODAY" NETWORK.
% MADELINE HEIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH
% FOR JOINING US.
% >> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
% >> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
% AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS.%THANKS
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
% "NOON WEDNESDAY."