% >>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
% I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
% JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
% PBS WISCONSIN.
% TODAY IS JANUARY 19.
% WISCONSIN'S DRINKING REPUTATION
% PROCEEDED THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC,
% BUT THE STRESS OF THE PAST TWO
% YEARS HAS PROPELLED CONSUMPTION
% AND ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS HAVE
% INCREASED BY 25%.
% JOINING US TO TALK ABOUT HOW
% THESE NUMBERS HAVE GOTTEN TO
% WHERE THEY ARE ARE ARI BROWN AND
% BRIEN GLEESON, AN ADDICTION
% COUNSELOR OFMAYO CLINIC FROM
% O'CLAIRE, AND THANK YOU, BOTH,
% FOR THIS CONVERSATION.
% >> THANK YOU.
% >> THANK YOU, GOOD TO BE HERE.
% >> ARI, STARTING WITH YOU, YOUR
% LATEST REPORT DUG INTO THE
% NUMBERS WHICH FOUND NOT ONLY
% HAVE ALCOHOL-RELATED DEATHS
% INCREASED BY 25% IN WISCONSIN,
% BUT WISCONSIN IS ALSO 25% HIGHER
% THAN THE RATE NATIONWIDE.
% WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO LOOK INTO
% THIS RESEARCH AND FIND THOSE
% NUMBERS?%>> YEAH.
% SO THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
% THIS RESEARCH IS SOMETHING WE'VE
% BEEN PURSUING IN DIFFERENT FORMS
% FOR QUITE A WHILE.%BACK IN 20
19, WE LOOKED AT
% SIMILAR DATA SET THAT LOOKED AT
% LIFE EXPECTANCY, AND WE FOUND
% SOME CONCERNING TRENDS AROUND
% LIFE EXPECTANCY IN WISCONSIN
% DRIVEN THINGS BY LIKE
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS, AND MID
% LAST YEAR, WE ACTUALLY LOOKED AT
% ALCOHOL TAX REVENUES, WHICH IS
% THE BEST PROXY, WE AS POLICY
% RESEARCHERS, HAVE FOR WHAT
% OVERALL ALCOHOL CONSUMPTION%
LOOKS LIKE IN THE STATE OF
% WISCONSIN, AND WE FOUND IN 2020
% THAT ALCOHOL TAX REVENUE IN
% WISCONSIN INCREASED QUITE A BIT,
% IN A WAY HAD NOT BEEN SEEN FOR
% MULTIPLE DECADES SINCE THERE
% HAVE BEEN MAJOR CHANGES TO
% TAXATION RULES AROUND ALCOHOL IN
% WISCONSIN.
% SO THAT, I THINK, REALLY IS WHAT
% SPURRED THIS RESEARCH.
% WE WERE ABLE TO USE A DATA SET
% THAT'S PUBLISHED BY THE CENTERS
% FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND
% PREVENTION THAT SINGLED OUT
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS SO THESE
% ARE DEATHS THAT ARE DIRECTLY
% CAUSED BY ALCOHOL.
% THINGS LIKE ALCOHOLIC LIVER
% DISEASE, MENTAL AND BEHAVIOR
% DISORDERS DUE TO ALCOHOL USE,
% AND IT EXCLUDES THINGS THAT
% WOULD RESULT FROM THE
% CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL, BUT NOT
% BE DIRECTLY CAUSED BY IT.
% THINGS LIKE CAR ACCIDENTS,
% VIOLENCE CAUSED BY OR, YOU KNOW,
% IN APPROXIMATE DISTANCE TO THE
% CONSUMPTION OF ALCOHOL, SO JUST
% THE DEATHS THAT ARE REALLY
% DIRECT RESULT OF ALCOHOL, BUT,
% YEAH, YOU'RE RIGHT, YOU KNOW,
% FOUND ALARMING TRENDS HERE AND
% THINGS WE HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT
% FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS,
% EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC
% STARTED.
% >> AND, BRIEN, HAVE YOU BEEN
% SEEING THIS IN YOUR DAY-TO-DAY
% WORK WITH AS THE PANDEMIC HAS
% PROGRESSED?%>> WELL, I'VE BE
EN DOING THIS
% FOR A WHILE, AND I'VE SEEN IT
% FOR A LONG TIME, BUT I WOULD
% SAY, YES, DURING THE PANDEMIC,
% IT'S GOTTEN WORSE.
% I ALSO ASKED BEFORE THIS
% INTERVIEW A COUPLE COLLEAGUES OF
% MINE WHO WORK IN OTHER PLACES,
% AND THEY'VE SEEN THE SAME TREND,
% THAT PARTICULAR FORM OF HARM
% CAUSED IN RELATIONSHIP WITH
% ALCOHOL WHERE, YOU KNOW, ALCOHOL
% ESSENTIALLY AS A POISON OF SORTS
% IS HURTING A PERSON'S BODY, AND
% THAT THAT LEADS TO ILLNESS AND
% DEATH, THAT, YES, THAT IS
% SOMETHING WE'VE SEEN ON THE RISE
% SINCE THE BEGINNING OF COVID.
% >> AND, BRIEN, HAVE YOU, I
% GUESS, SEEN HOW THIS HAS PLAYED
% OUT WITH CLIENTS, AND HAS IT
% MADE YOU BUSIER?
% HAVE YOU BASICALLY UNDERSTOOD
% WHAT PEOPLE ARE GOING THROUGH AS
% THESE LAST TWO YEARS HAVE
% PROGRESSED?
% >> I WOULD SAY YES.
% IT'S NOT THAT IT'S SOMETHING NEW
% AS MUCH AS IT IS JUST SOMETHING
% THAT'S GOTTEN WORSE BECAUSE OF
% THE, YOU KNOW, SOCIALLY WHAT'S
% OCCURRED.%YOU KNOW, GENERALL
Y, AS A
% PERSON'S ALCOHOLISM PROGRESSES,
% THEIR -- THEY'RE LIKELY TO
% BECOME MORE ISOLATED, AND
% THERE'S ANY NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO
% KIND OF TRY TO FUNCTION AS BEST
% THEY CAN USING SOCIAL CONTACTS
% AS A WAY TO KEEP FROM,
% ESSENTIALLY, DRINKING SO MUCH,
% AND IN A SENSE CONTROLLING THEIR
% OWN DRINKING BY MAKING SURE THEY
% HAVE REGULAR SOCIAL CONTACT,%
WHETHER IT IS WITH FAMILY OR
% FRIENDS OR, OF COURSE, ON THE
% JOB.
% DURING COVID, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN
% ISOLATED, AND SO IT IS NOT
% SURPRISING AT ALL TO ME THAT WE
% HAVE SEEN AN UPTICK, A
% SIGNIFICANT RISE IN THE NUMBER
% OF PEOPLE DYING ESSENTIALLY FROM
% THE EFFECTS OF ALCOHOL.
% >> ARI, DO WE KNOW WHO THIS IS
% HAPPENING TO MOST ACUTELY?
% >> YEAH.
% SO THAT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS WE
% WERE REALLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT
% WAS, YOU KNOW, IS THIS SOMETHING
% THAT'S HAPPENING ACROSS ALL
% DIFFERENT KINDS OF PEOPLE, OR IS
% THIS REALLY CONTAINED TO
% SPECIFIC GROUPS?%WHAT WE FOUN
D WAS THAT THE RATE
% OF ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS AMONG
% BASICALLY ALL GROUP, AGE, RACE,
% ETHNICITY, GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION,%
ALL GROUPS WERE INCREASING KIND
% OF OVER THE SPAN OF NOT JUST
% DURING THE PANDEMIC, BUT THE
% ENTIRE 21st CENTURY.
% WHAT WE'VE FOUND IN TERMS OF THE
% GROUPS THAT WERE REALLY DRIVING
% THE INCREASE, BOTH IN 2020 AND
% KIND OF THE LAST DECADE
% SPECIFICALLY WERE THOSE BETWEEN
% THE AGES OF 45 TO 84, SO KIND OF
% OUR MIDDLE-AGED AND OLDER
% POPULATION IN WISCONSIN, AN THEN
% WHAT WE FOUND IN THE SUPPORT
% THAT WAS ALARMING WAS, YOU KNOW,
% FOR THE MOST PART, THE DEATH
% RATE IN RACIAL AND ETHNIC GROUPS
% IN WISCONSIN TRACKS CLOSELY TO
% THAT AS OF THE U.S. RATE, SO,
% FOR EXAMPLE, DEATH RATE FOR
% WHITE WISCONSINITES IS SIMILAR
% TO THE DEATH RATE OF WHITE
% AMERICANS.
% IN 2012, THE DEATH RATE FOR
% BLACK WISCONSINITES INCREASED,
% AND DIVERGING QUITE HEAVILY FROM
% THE DEATH RATES FOR BLACK
% AMERICANS.
% SO, FOR MOST OF THE 21st
% CENTURY, THE DEATH RATE FOR
% BLACK AMERICANS HAS BEEN WELL
% BELOW THAT.
% FOR WHITE AMERICANS, IN
% WISCONSIN, THAT WAS MOSTLY TRUE
% AS WELL, THEY KIND OF -- I
% BELIEVE, 2005 WAS THE LAST YEAR
% THAT BLACK WISCONSINITES WERE
% ABOVE WHITE WISCONSINITES FOR
% THE DEATH RATE, BUT THAT HAS
% CONTINUED FOR AMERICA GENERALLY,
% BUT NOT FOR WISCONSIN.
% IN 2019, THE BLACK DEATH RATE
% ROSE THAT ABOVE THE WHITE DEATH
% RATE.
% WE THOUGHT THAT WAS IMPORTANT TO
% HIGHLIGHT BECAUSE IT WAS REALLY
% ONE OF THE TRENDS YOU START TO
% SEE A DIVERGENCE IN OVERALL
% TRENDS AND SAME DIVERGENCE IN%
THE MIDDLE AGE AND OLDER IN
% WISCONSINITES WHERE THEIR RATE
% IN 2011, 2012 STARTS TO INCREASE
% ABOVE THE RATE OF ALL AMERICANS
% OF SIMILAR GROUPS.
% >> AND IT KIND OF MAKES SENSE
% THAT AN OLDER GROUP IS GOING TO
% HAVE MORE HEALTH RELATED ISSUES,
% EITHER FROM BEING OLDER OR FROM
% DRINKING, AND SO IT IS NOT
% NECESSARILY YOUNGER PEOPLE WE
% ARE SEEING FROM ALCOHOL-INDUCED
% DEATHS, BUT, BRIEN, ARE WE
% SEEING YOUNGER AND YOUNGER
% ALCOHOL ABUSE PROBLEMS IN
% PEOPLE?
% IS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU'RE
% SEEING IN YOUR WORK?
% >> IT'S INTERESTING.
% IT'S KIND OF A LITTLE BIT OF A
% MIXED PICTURE THERE I WOULD SAY.
% OVERALL, I WOULD SAY, YES, YOU
% KNOW, THERE'S A CULTURE OF
% DRINKING IN WISCONSIN, AND NOT
% JUST DRINKING, BUT ONE OF THE
% MAIN THINGS THAT SHOWS UP FROM
% THE STATISTICS THAT I LOOKED AT
% IS THAT IT IS NOT SO MUCH THAT
% YOUNGER -- THAT PEOPLE ARE
% DRINKING YOUNGER THAN THEY USED
% TO OR THAT THEY ARE MORE -- THAT
% MORE OF THEM ARE DRINKING, YOU
% KNOW, PER CAPITA OR WHATEVER,
% BUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING MORE IS
% DRINKING MORE HEAVILY WHEN THEY
% DRINK.
% THAT'S BEEN PRETTY CLEAR, I
% THINK, FROM THE RESEARCH I'VE
% SEEN.
% WHAT THEY ARE DOING MORE IS
% BINGE DRINKING, AND SO THAT'S
% THE TYPE OF DRINKING THAT'S
% LIABLE TO BRING ABOUT -- YOU
% KNOW, FOR YOUNGER PEOPLE, THE
% MEDICAL PROBLEM IS MORE LIKELY
% TO BE ALONG THE LINES OF ALCOHOL
% POISONING.
% WHERE A PERSON DRINKS SO MUCH SO
% QUICKLY THAT THEY SIMPLY
% ANESTHETIZE THEIR CENTRAL
% NERVOUS SYSTEM TO THE POINT THEY
% DIE.%IT IS NOT REAL COMMON.
% IT IS NOT REAL FREQUENT.
% IT HAPPENS MORE COMMONLY AMONG
% YOUNG PEOPLE WHERE IT'S A
% CULTURE WHERE YOUNG PEOPLE DRINK
% MORE WHEN THEY DRINK.
% IT'S NOT THAT MORE OF THEM ARE
% NECESSARILY DRINKING OR THAT
% THEY ARE DRINKING MORE OFTEN,
% BUT WHEN THEY DRINK, THEY DRINK
% MORE, AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT BE
% AN EVEN GREATER -- AND I DON'T
% HAVE THE FIGURES IN FRONT OF
% ME -- BUT OFF THE TOP OF MY
% HEAD, I KNOW THAT'S BEEN
% ACTUALLY THROUGH THE PAST FEW
% DECADES HAPPENING MORE OFTEN
% WITH YOUNG WOMEN THAN IT USED
% TO.
% YOUNG WOMEN, IN PARTICULAR,
% DRINKING MORE WHEN THEY DRINK
% THAN YOUNG WOMEN IN GENERATIONS
% PREVIOUS.
% NOW, I WILL SAY THIS, THOUGH, TO
% KIND OF COUNTER IT, I THINK THAT
% THERE IS LESS -- ESPECIALLY FOR
% UNDERAGE DRINKERS -- I THINK
% THERE'S LESS TOLERANCE OR
% EXPECTATION IN OUR CULTURE TODAY
% FOR THAT, NOT A HUGE AMOUNT.
% I MEAN, THERE'S STILL PLENTY OF
% UNDERAGE PEOPLE DRINKING,
% ESPECIALLY IN WISCONSIN.
% IT'S BEEN SAID IN WISCONSIN WE
% START THEM OUT YOUNG, AND WE DO.
% WE TEND TO.
% IT'S KIND OF A KNOWN THING IF
% YOU GROW UP IN WISCONSIN, YOU'RE
% LIKELY TO BE DRINKING BEFORE YOU
% ARE OF LEGAL AGE, BUT I THINK
% THERE'S BEEN A TREND OF LESS
% TOLERANCE FOR THAT IN THE PAST
% FEW YEARS.
% I THINK THAT, FRANKLY, A LOT OF
% THAT IS PROBABLY DUE TO
% LIABILITY.%YOU KNOW, IN THE P
AST, IT WAS
% NOT UNUSUAL THAT PARENTS WOULD
% SPONSOR A DRINKING PARTY FOR THE
% HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL TEAM.
% EVEN THOUGH THEY WERE ALL
% UNDERAGE, YOU KNOW, WE'LL HAVE
% THEM DRINK AT HOME.
% IT'S SAFE THERE.
% THEY WILL BE DRINKING ANYWAY.
% AT LEAST THEY ARE DRINKING WHERE
% WE WON'T LET THEM DRINK AND
% DRIVE, AND SO THERE WAS SOME
% THOUGHT ABOUT THAT, BUT, YOU
% KNOW, THERE'S BEEN -- I'VE EVEN
% SEEN ROAD SIGNS OR
% ADVERTISEMENTS ON THE ROADS THAT
% SAY, YOU KNOW, PARENTS WHO
% SPONSOR DRINKING AREN'T LIABLE
% FOR WHAT HAPPENS.%I THINK I'
VE SEEN SOME CHANGE,
% ALTHOUGH, AGAIN, NOT DRAMATIC,
% BUT SOME CHANGE IN THE TOLERANCE
% FOR UNDERAGE DRINKING, BUT
% OVERALL, YEAH, THE OVERALL TREND
% HAS GOTTEN WORSE FOR ALL AGES,
% AND AS YOU SAID, ESPECIALLY
% OLDER PEOPLE.
% >> SO A LOT OF FACTORS THAT ARE
% GOING INTO CULTURAL SHIFTS, AND
% I BELIEVE, ARI, IN YOUR REPORT,
% SPECIFICALLY, THAT
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS WERE
% NOT -- DID NOT INCLUDE YOUNG
% PEOPLE WHO HAD GIVEN THEMSELVES
% ALCOHOL POISONING, BUT CAN YOU
% TALK ABOUT WHAT ARE THE
% CONSEQUENCES OF THE HEALTH AND
% ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES OF THIS
% LARGE SCALE RISE IN SEVERE
% DRINKING THAT YOU LAID OUT IN
% THIS REPORT?
% >> YEAH.
% SO, JUST TO RESPOND TO THE FIRST
% PART, AS, YOU KNOW, OUR OTHER
% GUEST MENTIONED, WE DID -- THOSE
% ARE ALCOHOL POISONING IS ONE OF
% THE THINGS THAT'S INCLUDED, BUT
% THE NUMBERS ARE PRETTY SMALL IN
% TERMS OF PEOPLE ACTUALLY
% DRINKING THEMSELVES TO DEATH
% LIKE IN AN ACUTE WAY RATHER THAN
% IN A CHRONIC WAY.
% I BELIEVE IT WAS THE THIRD
% LEADING CAUSE AMONG THE
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED CAUSES, BUT A
% DISTANT THIRD WHERE THE FIRST
% TWO BEING ALCOHOLIC LIVER
% DISEASE AND THEN MENTAL AND
% BEHAVIOR DISORDERS DUE TO
% ALCOHOL USE BEING AROUND 90% OF
% ALL ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS, BOTH
% IN WISCONSIN AND NATIONWIDE.
% TO RESPOND TO THE SECOND PART OF
% THAT, YEAH, IT IS SUCH A GOOD
% QUESTION, AND IT'S REALLY
% SOMETHING THAT I THINK
% POLICYMAKERS SHOULD BE THINKING
% ABOUT IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW,
% WHAT DOES THIS RISE IN
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS MEAN FOR
% THE HEALTH OF WISCONSINITES AND
% FOR THE HEALTH OF, YOU KNOW, THE
% ECONOMY IN WISCONSIN, AND I
% THINK ONE OF THE THING WE WERE
% THINKING ABOUT THROUGHOUT THE
% REPORT WAS, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A
% BIG ECONOMY FOR PURCHASING
% ALCOHOL IN WISCONSIN.
% YOU KNOW, WISCONSIN DOES -- IS
% KIND OF ONE OF THESE STATES
% THAT'S THOUGHT OF AS HAVING A
% PRETTY STRONG DRINKING CULTURE.
% THERE'S BREWERIES ALL AROUND THE
% STATE.
% WHAT WE FOUND OUT IN THE REPORT,
% AND THIS WAS NOT JUST WISCONSIN
% SPECIFIC.%IT HAPPENED IN OTH
ER PLACES, BUT
% IT DID HAPPEN ALSO IN WISCONSIN,
% WAS THAT THERE WAS, YOU KNOW, A
% MOTION FROM THE STATE TO ALLOW
% FOR WHAT WAS TERMED TO-GO
% COCKTAILS FROM, YOU KNOW, BARS
% AND RESTAURANTS IN THE BEGINNING
% OF THE PANDEMIC, AND AT THE
% BEGINNING OF THE PANDEMIC, THE
% CONCERN, I THINK, RIGHTFULLY SO,
% WAS MAKING SURE THAT SMALL
% BUSINESSES COULD, YOU KNOW,
% CONTINUE TO FUNCTION, CONTINUE
% TO, YOU KNOW, DO THEIR BUSINESS,
% AND NOT, HOPEFULLY, YOU KNOW, GO
% AWAY AS A RESULT OF THE
% PANDEMIC, AND FOR, YOU KNOW, A
% LOT OF THINGS, THAT WAS A GOOD
% MOTION, AND IT HELPED A LOT, BUT
% POTENTIALLY ONE OF THE SIDE
% EFFECTS THAT YOU HAVE IS THE
% OVERALL INCREASE IN THE
% ACCESSIBILITY OF ALCOHOL.%TH
IS WAS JUST AN ANOTHER
% EXAMPLE.
% GO BACK THE LAST COUPLE DECADES
% AND FIND LITTLE MOTIONS HERE AND
% THERE THAT HAVE KIND OF SERVED
% TO INCREASE THE ACCESSIBILITY
% AND AVAILABILITY OF ALCOHOL, SO
% IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMIC
% PICTURE, I THINK THAT'S ONE WITH
% OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS TO THINK
% ABOUT IS, YOU KNOW, IT IS AN
% IMPORTANT ECONOMIC INDUSTRY IN
% THE STATE, BUT THERE ARE ALSO
% THESE POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS.%
WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTH, I THINK
% ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE
% FOCUSED ON A LOT IN THE
% PANDEMIC, AGAIN, RIGHTFULLY SO,
% WAS WE ARE REALLY FOCUSED ON
% GETTING COVID UNDER CONTROL,
% AND, OBVIOUSLY, IT'S BEEN A
% MAJOR FACTOR IN ALL OF OUR LIVES
% FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS, BUT ONE
% OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE KIND OF
% BEEN THINKING ABOUT AS POLICY
% RESEARCHERS IS WHAT IS ALL OF
% THESE KIND OF SIDE EFFECTS OF
% THE PANDEMIC ON OTHER AREAS OF
% PUBLIC POLICY, AND ALCOHOL IS
% ONE OF THEM, ESPECIALLY IN OUR
% STATE.
% YOU KNOW, THE INCREASE THAT WE
% SAW, THE 25% INCREASE, ABOUT 25%
% FROM 2019 TO 2020 WAS BY FAR THE
% LARGEST ONE-YEAR JUMP IN
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS FROM --
% FOR ANY YEAR OVER THE 21st
% CENTURY, AND, YOU KNOW, THE
% DOCTOR MENTIONED SOCIAL
% ISOLATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT,
% AND THAT'S ONE WITH OF THE
% THINGS WE'VE BEEN HEARING FROM
% OTHER EXPERTS ON THIS AS WELL
% THAT THAT PLAYED A REALLY BIG
% FACTOR, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I
% THINK THAT THOSE ARE KIND OF THE
% BIG THINGS TO FOCUS ON WHEN IT
% COMES TO THE HEALTH OF WEES AND
% OVERALL WISCONSIN ECONOMY.
% >> IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, WHEN
% THE PANDEMIC FIRST HIT, KIND OF
% MARCH 2020, MANY BUSINESSES WERE
% SHUT DOWN, INCLUDING RESTAURANTS
% AND BARS, BUT GROCERY STORES AND
% LIQUOR STORES WERE CONSIDERED
% ESSENTIAL, AND LIQUOR STORES
% WERE KEPT OPEN.
% BRIEN, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, IN
% WISCONSIN, AS WE ALREADY SAID,
% BINGE LEVEL DRINKING LEVELS WERE
% ALREADY HIGH BEFORE THE
% PANDEMIC.
% IN PLACES IN WISCONSIN WERE
% RANKED TOP DRINKING CITIES
% NATIONALLY, SO WERE PEOPLE
% ALREADY ON THE EDGE OR
% EXPERIENCING KIND OF A FULL
% BLOWN ADDICTION, BUT IT JUST
% WASN'T BEING TALKED ABOUT?
% >> SURE.
% YEAH.
% I WOULD SAY SO.
% YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT TENDS
% TO GET THE HEADLINES AND GET
% NOTICED ARE ABUSE OF OTHER DRUGS
% BECAUSE IT'S MORE DRAMATIC AND
% IMMEDIATE.
% ONE OF THE REAL -- BOY, I DON'T
% KNOW WHAT TO CALL IT -- DANGERS,
% I GUESS YOU WOULD SAY OR ONE OF
% THE THINGS IN MY JOB I SEE VERY
% OFTEN IS THE REAL HARMFUL EFFECT
% OF ALCOHOL.
% QUITE OFTEN, IT IS THE SUBTLETY.
% IT SEEPS IN GRADUALLY.
% SO WE WILL TEND NOT TO NOTICE
% THE EFFECT BECAUSE THE EFFECT
% DOES NOT COME ON IN RAPID ONSET
% LIKE IT MIGHT WITH A DRUG LIKE
% METHAMPHETAMINE.%GENERALLY, I
F SOMEONE IS, IF YOU
% WILL, DRINKING THEMSELVES TO
% DEATH, IT IS A SLOW DEATH.
% IT IS A VERY GRADUAL THING, AND
% THAT TREND IS SOMETHING THAT'S
% BEEN A PART OF THE CULTURE FOR A
% LONG TIME.
% IT'S -- YOU KNOW, TO CALL IT
% "SUICIDE" IS MAYBE NOT QUITE TO
% UNDERSTAND IT BECAUSE I DON'T
% THINK MOST PEOPLE THAT DRINK
% THEMSELVES TO DEATH ARE DOING SO
% BECAUSE THEY WANT TO DIE, BUT
% RATHER THE -- YOU KNOW, AS YOU
% WATCH IT PROGRESS, IT IS SO
% GRADUAL THAT IT IS MORE SUBTLE,
% AND IT IS GOING TO BE BELOW THE
% RADAR, AS YOU ARE SUGGESTING,
% AND PEOPLE FIND A WAY TO HIDE IT
% IN A MILLION OF WAYS THAT WE
% LOST IN THE PANDEMIC, AND SO IT
% IS MAKING SENSE IT INCREASED,
% BUT, YES, IT'S DEFINITELY ALWAYS
% BEEN THERE, AND, YOU KNOW, AS
% THE ILLNESS PROGRESSES, I DON'T
% THINK THAT HAVE MANY ALCOHOL --
% THAT VERY MANY ALCOHOLICS DECIDE
% THAT, OH, YOU KNOW, I JUST
% DECIDE I WANT TO DIE.
% I DON'T THINK IT'S SUICIDE.
% IT'S BEEN CALLED "SLOW SUICIDE,"
% BY SELF-POISONING, BUT I DON'T
% THINK IT IS SO MUCH A MATTER OF
% SOMEBODY WILLINGLY OF THEIR OWN
% DECIDING I DON'T WANT TO LIVE
% ANYMORE AS MUCH AS THEY
% RECOGNIZE THAT IT IS HARMING
% THEM, THEY RECOGNIZE THAT IT
% WILL END WITH THEIR DEATH, BUT
% AS THE DISEASE PROGRESSES, THAT
% DOESN'T BOTHER THEM AS MUCH AS
% NOT DRINKING, AS MUCH AS THE
% IDEA STOPPING DRINKING.
% IT IS MORE TROUBLING TO THEM
% THAN KNOWING THAT EVENTUALLY
% THIS IS GOING TO TAKE MY LIFE.
% SO THAT'S WHAT I'VE SEEN FOR
% YEARS IN WORKING IN THIS FIELD,
% AND THAT HAS NOT REALLY CHANGED
% WITH THE PANDEMIC.
% THAT'S ALWAYS BEEN THERE.
% >> AND KIND OF THAT GRADUAL
% PROGRESSION, AS YOU ARE
% DESCRIBING, SOUNDS LIKE THE FROG
% IN BOILING WATER.
% YOU DON'T NOTICE IT AT FIRST,
% AND BY THE TIME IT GETS REALLY
% BAD, IT'S ALMOST KIND OF TOO
% LATE TO STOP IT, AND OFTEN
% DRINKING IS SEEN AS A GOOD
% THING, A CELEBRATION, A POSITIVE
% THING TO KIND OF RELAX AND LET
% LOOSE, BUT IT DOESN'T ALWAYS
% STAY THAT WAY FOR FOLKS.
% ARI, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, SO WHY
% HAS WISCONSIN FAILED IN THE PAST
% TO PASS LEGISLATION THAT COULD
% ADDRESS THIS, EVEN FOR POLICIES
% LIKE MORE SEVERE PUNISHMENT FOR
% DRUNK DRIVING OFFENSES?
% IS WISCONSIN'S DRINKING CULTURE
% DIRECTLY IMPACTING OUR POLICY
% DECISIONS?%>> YEAH.
% THIS IS SUCH A GREAT QUESTION,
% AND I THINK IT'S SOMETHING THAT
% WE WERE, YOU KNOW, INTERESTED IN
% PURSUING AS WELL.
% ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE
% KIND OF TALKED ABOUT A LITTLE
% BIT WITH THIS REPORT
% SPECIFICALLY IS, YOU KNOW,
% ALCOHOL REALLY SEEMS TO BE WHAT
% WE REFER TO AS A POLICY BLIND
% SPOT IN WISCONSIN.
% I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT
% PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY AWARE OF,
% YOU KNOW, YOU SEE THINGS LIKE
% THE LISTS OF, LIKE, THE TOP 40
% DRINKING CITIES OR THE TOP 10
% DRINKING COUNTIES, AND USUALLY A
% LOT OF THEM ARE IN WISCONSIN,
% AND SO I THINK IT IS SOMETHING
% PEOPLE ARE AWARE OF, BUT, YOU
% KNOW, IT CAN BE HARD SOMETIMES
% TO GET A LOT OF ENERGY BEHIND
% CERTAIN LEGISLATIVE PROPOSALS OR
% TO FIGURE OUT, YOU KNOW, EXACTLY
% WHAT SORT OF POLICY SOLUTIONS,
% YOU KNOW, CAN BE PURSUED IN
% ORDER TO CUT DOWN ON THIS AS AN
% ISSUE.
% I DO THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO
% NOTE THAT IF YOU GO BACK TO
% AROUND 2000, THE RATE OF DEATH
% FROM ALCOHOL-INDUCED CAUSES IN
% WISCONSIN WAS BASICALLY EXACTLY
% AT THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.
% WE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING BEFORE
% 1999, ONLY SINCE THEN, BUT WHAT
% WE HAVE SEEN A THE RATE OF
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS IN
% WISCONSIN TRACKED VERY CLOSELY
% TO THAT AS WAS NATIONAL RATE
% UNTIL ABOUT 2010, 2011 OR SO
% WHERE IT WENT IN THE WRONG
% DIRECTION.%ANOTHER THING TO P
OTENTIALLY
% POINT TO HERE IS THIS REAL
% DIVERGENCE IN THE 25% GAP NOW
% BETWEEN 2020, THE RATE OF
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS IN
% WISCONSIN AND RATE OF
% ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS IN THE
% UNITED STATES IN GENERAL IS
% REALLY KIND OF A NEWER
% PHENOMENA.
% THE OTHER THING I'LL POINT TO
% HERE THAT HAS KIND OF BEEN%PO
INTED OUT TO US IN DOING THIS
% RESEARCH, IS THAT A LOT OF
% ALCOHOL POLICY DECISIONS ARE
% MADE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL IN
% WISCONSIN.%FOR EXAMPLE, YOU H
AVE ITEMS LIKE
% LIQUOR LICENSES.%THOSE ARE LA
RGELY DETERMINED BY
% MUNICIPALITIES, AND SO IT IS
% REALLY HARD, SOMETIMES, TO GET A
% HANDLE ON THE AVAILABILITY AND
% ACCESSIBILITY OF ALCOHOL, WHICH
% IN DOING OUR RESEARCH, WERE TWO
% OF THE BIG ITEMS THAT, YOU KNOW,
% INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE CDC
% POINTED TO IN TERMS OF WHAT
% COULD POTENTIALLY REDUCE THE
% RATE OF ALCOHOL-INDUCED DEATHS
% NATIONWIDE, AND WHEN YOU HAVE
% DECISIONS MADE AT THE LOCAL
% LEVEL, YOU KNOW, IN WISCONSIN
% HERE, OVER 1800 MUNICIPALITIES,
% AND SO KIND OF THAT SPREAD OUT
% DECISION MAKING, A LOT OF TIMES,
% IT IS HARD TO REALLY GET A
% HANDLE ON, YOU KNOW, WHAT
% EXACTLY IS BEING DONE AND JUST
% THE OVERALL INCREASE IN THE
% AVAILABILITY OF ALCOHOL.
% >> BRIEN, WE KNOW THERE ARE
% STIGMAS AGAINST PEOPLE
% STRUGGLING WITH ADDICTION, BUT
% IS THIS MORE OF A MENTAL HEALTH
% CRISIS, AND WHAT DO YOU SEE AS
% WAYS OF ADDRESSING ROOT CAUSES
% OF ALCOHOL ADDICTION?
% >> WELL, OKAY.
% SO, YEAH, ABSOLUTELY IS.
% IN FACT, THAT'S WHERE YOU FIND
% ALCOHOL USE DISORDER, AS WE CALL
% IT NOW, OR ALCOHOLISM, IS NOT
% REALLY THE MEDICAL TERM, BUT IT
% IS ALCOHOL USE DISORDER, WHERE,%
YOU KNOW, THE CRITERIA FOR THAT
% DIAGNOSIS IS FOUND IN THE
% DIAGNOSTIC AND STATISTIC MANUAL
% OF THE AMERICAN PSYCHIATRIC
% ASSOCIATION SO IT IS A MENTAL
% HEALTH ISSUE, ABSOLUTELY IS.
% IT IS INTERESTING THAT WAY.
% SOMETIMES THE INDIVIDUAL
% ALCOHOLIC OR ADDICTED PERSON
% WILL WONDER, AM I ADDICTED OR AM
% I CRAZY, YOU KNOW, IF YOU WILL,
% THINKING ABOUT IT IN THE SIMPLE
% SENSE.
% IT'S, LIKE, WELL, THERE --
% THAT'S WHERE THIS PARTICULAR
% ILLNESS IS COUCHED, UNDER THAT
% HEADING, IF YOU WILL, MENTAL
% HEALTH.
% SO, I DON'T THINK I WOULD
% NECESSARILY SEPARATE THE TWO, BY
% ANY MEANS.
% CERTAINLY, OTHER ISSUES IN
% REGARDS TO MENTAL HEALTH IMPACT
% IT, AND IT IMPACTS OTHER ISSUES
% IN REGARD TO MENTAL HEALTH,
% DRAMATICALLY, BUT IT IS ITS OWN
% THING.
% I WOULD ADD THAT.
% WE KNOW TODAY -- AND THIS IS
% SOMETHING, ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, I
% FEEL KIND OF PRIVILEGED TO GET
% TO SAY JUST IN THE COURSE OF MY
% CAREER, WE HAVE COME TO SEE WITH
% HARD SCIENCE AND NEUROLOGICAL
% RESEARCH AND BRAIN IMAGING THAT
% THIS THING WE CALL ADDICTION IS
% A REAL THING.
% IT IS NOT JUST SOMEBODY BEHAVING
% POORLY.%IT IS A CHANGE IN TH
E WAY THAT
% THE BRAIN OPERATES, AND IT IS
% REALLY BEST DESCRIBED AS A
% NEUROLOGICAL HIJACKING.%THER
E'S A LOT OF THINGS THAT
% HAPPEN WHEN YOU -- WHEN A PERSON
% DRINKS ALCOHOL THAT KIND OF
% SEPARATED, IN MANY WAYS FROM
% OTHER DRUGS, THAT IT, AS -- IT
% IS SUCH A SIMPLE ORGANIC
% MOLECULE.%IT LITERALLY GOES
EVERYWHERE IN
% THE BODY, AND THAT MAKES IT
% DIFFICULT TO RESEARCH IN A HARD
% SCIENCE WAY.
% IT'S ACTUALLY ONE OF THE MORE
% DIFFICULT DRUGS TO RESEARCH
% BECAUSE OF THAT BECAUSE IT'S NOT
% KEPT TO JUST A SINGLE PATHWAY IN
% THE BODY.
% HOWEVER, TODAY, WE CAN SAY
% AUTHORITATIVELY THAT THERE'S A
% REAL THING THAT HAPPENS HERE.
% THERE'S A CHANGE IN THE WAY THAT
% THE BRAIN OPERATES.
% THAT SEEMS INDULLBLE.
% WE DON'T KNOW HOW TO UNDO IT.
% IT'S MAYBE THE BEST DESCRIPTION
% THAT I CAN THINK OF IS THAT IT
% IS A NEUROHIJACKING AT THE
% PSYCHOLOGY LEVEL, AND WHAT IS
% ESSENTIALLY THE REASON I HAVE
% THIS JOB IS BECAUSE OF THAT
% PSYCHOLOGICAL HOOK THAT WE
% UNDERSTAND THE MECHANISM OF THAT
% MUCH BETTER TODAY, THAT IT'S A
% REAL THING, AND IT IS BEST
% DESCRIBED AS A HIJACKING OF THE
% NEUROPATHWAYS INVOLVED WITH
% ATTACHMENT.%IT IS AN ATTACHM
ENT.
% THAT IS A REALLY GOOD WORD TO
% THINK OF WHEN YOU ARE TRYING TO
% UNDERSTAND ADDICTIONS.
% ADDICTIONS ARE ABOUT ATTACHMENT.
% THEY ARE ABOUT A LOT OF
% DIFFERENT THINGS, BUT THAT, IN
% PARTICULAR, IS WHAT MAKES IT A
% TOUGH NUT TO CRACK.%>> HUH.
% VERY INTERESTING.
% SO, ARI, IF THERE'S NOT A LOT OF
% STATEWIDE POLICIES THAT ARE
% GOING TOWARDS ADDRESSING ROOT
% CAUSES AND PREVENTION, DOES
% WISCONSIN HAVE ENOUGH RESOURCES
% KIND OF ON THE REACTION BACK END
% SIDE FOR SERVICES LIKE
% COUNSELING TO WRAP AROUND THOSE%
WHO NEED IT?
% >> YEAH.
% THIS IS A GREAT QUESTION AND ONE
% THAT I THINK, YOU KNOW,
% POLICYMAKERS SHOULD ALSO BE
% INTERESTED IN DIGGING INTO.
% ONE OF THE ITEMS THAT WE
% MENTIONED IN THE REPORT IS THAT
% WE FOUND LAST YEAR THAT THE
% STATE IS NOW WORKING WITH ONE OF
% THE BIGGER BUDGET SURPLUSES IT'S
% HAD IN RECENT YEARS WITH
% DEFINITELY THE POTENTIAL TO, YOU
% KNOW, FOCUS SOME OF THAT REVENUE
% TOWARDS THINGS LIKE ADDRESSING,
% YOU KNOW, PREVENTION, EDUCATION,
% TREATMENT FOR THOSE WHO ARE
% EXPERIENCING ISSUES SURROUNDING
% ALCOHOL USE.%YOU KNOW, THERE
ARE DEFINITELY
% AVENUES THAT POLICYMAKERS COULD
% BE TAKING.
% IT IS HARD TO SAY RIGHT NOW
% INDEFINITELY, YOU KNOW, YOU'D
% EXPECT THAT IN TERMS OF SERVICES
% THAT ARE AVAILABLE, YOU'D EXPECT
% THINGS KIND OF DIFFER
% GEOGRAPHICALLY, YOU KNOW, THERE
% ARE DIFFERENT ISSUES, YOU KNOW,
% FACING DIFFERENT COUNTIES, YOU
% KNOW, SO I THINK IT IS A GREAT
% QUESTION FOR POLICYMAKERS TO
% CONTINUE TO PURSUE.
% THE OTHER THING TO MENTION HERE
% IS, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE RECENT
% STIMULUS BILLS, FOR EXAMPLE, THE
% AMERICAN RESCUE PLAN ACT, THAT
% GAVE LOCAL GOVERNMENTS A LOT OF
% REVENUE TO WORK WITH ON, YOU
% KNOW, OF COURSE, A LOT OF THE
% REVENUE'S GOING TOWARDS, YOU
% KNOW, FILLING OTHER HOLES WHEN
% IT COMES THIS THINGS IMPACTED BY
% THE PANDEMIC, BUT WE THINK, YOU
% KNOW, THIS IS CERTAINLY ONE AREA
% THAT AT A LOCAL LEVEL, IF THERE
% IS REVENUE, THAT COULD
% POTENTIALLY BE USED FOR, YOU
% KNOW, PUBLIC HEALTH SPENDING.
% I'LL SAY, ALSO, THE WISCONSIN
% POLICY FORUM DOES NOT ADVOCATE
% FOR -- AS A NONPARTISAN
% ORGANIZATION, WE DO NOT ADVOCATE
% FOR SPECIFIC POLICIES, BUT JUST,
% YOU KNOW, IN TERMS OF WHAT'S OUT
% THERE, THOSE ARE THE BIG ITEMS
% WHEN IT COMES TO WHAT POLICIES
% COULD BE PURSUED, BOTH AT THE
% LOCAL AND STATE LEVEL.
% >> AND, BRIEN, IF MANY PEOPLE
% WERE POSSIBLY ABUSING ALCOHOL
% BEFORE THE PANDEMIC, AND NOW WE
% SEE THIS GETTING WORSE, HOW DOES
% SOMEONE KNOW IF THEY NEED HELP,
% AND IF SOMEONE WATCHING THIS
% TODAY IS A FRIEND OR FAMILY
% MEMBER OF SOMEONE WHO NEEDS
% HELP, WHAT'S THE BEST WAY TO
% APPROACH THIS TOPIC?
% >> I'M GLAD YOU GOT TO THAT
% QUESTION.
% FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU ARE ASKING
% YOURSELF, GEEZ, I WONDER IF I
% HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ALCOHOL,
% THAT'S A GOOD INDICATOR THAT YOU
% PROBABLY DO.
% THE ADVICE I'D HAVE FOR THE
% INDIVIDUAL OR FOR THE FAMILY
% MEMBER WOULD BE THIS, KEEPING IN
% MIND THE WORD THAT I USE BEFORE
% CAN BE REALLY HELPFUL, BECAUSE
% IT'S VERY CONFOUNDING FOR THE
% INDIVIDUAL AND THE FAMILY TO
% FACE THIS.
% IF YOU CAN REMEMBER THIS IS LIKE
% A RELATIONSHIP, THIS IS LIKE AN
% ATTACHMENT, AND SO IF YOU EVER
% HAD A FRIEND WHO FELL IN LOVE
% WITH SOMEONE WHO JUST WAS NO
% GOOD FOR THEM, IT'S -- THAT'S
% KIND OF LIKE WHAT YOU'RE FACING
% HERE.
% YOU HAVE A FRIEND WHO FELL IN
% LOVE WITH SOMETHING, IT IS AN
% ATTACHMENT.
% THEY DID NOT ASK FOR IT.
% WITH ATTACHMENTS, THEY ARE NOT
% THAT VOLUNTARY.
% THEY ARE DECISIONS WE MAKE IN
% REGARD TO THEM, BUT THEY ARE NOT
% REALLY VOLUNTARY.
% ATTACHMENT IS WHAT OCCURS.
% IF IT OCCURRED, THEN YOU'RE
% GOING TO NEED TO HELP A PERSON
% KIND OF GET THROUGH A BREAKUP,
% IF YOU WILL.
% IF YOU APPROACH IT LIKE THAT AND
% THAT MIND SET, YOU'RE MORE THAN
% LIKELY -- AND LOVING CARING MIND
% SET, I CARE BOTH YOU, BUT I SEE
% THIS HAPPENING, IT IS MUCH MORE
% LIKELY TO BE SUCCESSFUL.
% AGAIN, BOTH FOR THE FAMILY
% PERSON AND FOR THE INDIVIDUAL TO
% RECOGNIZE, I'VE GOT THIS
% ATTACHMENT, I DIDN'T REALLY ASK
% FOR IT, I DON'T REALLY WANT IT,
% BUT I GOT IT, AND, THEREFORE, I
% HAVE TO MOVE FORWARD WITH TRYING
% TO CHANGE MY LIFE AND, YOU KNOW,
% I THINK IN ALL OF THE DETAILS
% THAT GO ALONG WITH THAT BREAKUP,
% WITH THE ATTACHMENT, IT IS THE
% BEST WAY TO APPROACH IT.
% >> ALL RIGHT.
% WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE,
% DEFINITELY A VERY IMPORTANT
% TOPIC, AND I REALLY APPRECIATE
% BOTH OF YOU CONTRIBUTING YOUR
% UNIQUE PERSPECTIVES.
% ARI BROWN, RESEARCHERS FROM
% WISCONSIN POLICY FORUM, AND
% BRIEN GLEESON, ADDICTION
% COUNSELOR WITH THEMAYO CLINIC
% HEALTH SYSTEM OUT OF O'CLAIRE,
% THANK YOU, BOTH, VERY MUCH FOR
% THE CONVERSATION.%>> WELL, T
HANK YOU.
% >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.
% >> I ENJOYED IT.
% >> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
% AND PBS WISCONSIN, VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS, AND THANK%
YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
% "NOON WEDNESDAY."