% >>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
% I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
% JOURNALIST FOR "HERE & NOW" ON
% PBS WISCONSIN.
% TODAY'S JANUARY 5.
% WE ARE BACK, AND IT IS 2022,
% ALTHOUGH, IT DOESN'T FEEL LIKE
% IT.
% WE ARE REACHING NEW LEVELS OF
% THE PANDEMIC AND STILL ARGUING
% OVER THE 2020 ELECTIONS, SO HOW
% DO WE LOOK FORWARD?
% OUR GUEST TODAY WROTE A NEW BOOK
% THAT TAKES US THROUGH RECENT AND
% OLDER POLITICAL HISTORY IN
% WISCONSIN, AND HE SAYS DEMOCRACY
% IN THIS STATE IS IN DANGER.
% MATT ROTHSCHILD IS THE AUTHOR OF
% "12 WAYS TO SAVE KNACK IN
% WISCONSIN," AND HE JOINS ME NOW.
% MATT, THANK YOU FOR THE
% CONVERSATION.
% >> MY PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR
% HAVING ME ON,MARISA, REALLY
% APPRECIATE IT.%>> SO WHY EXAC
TLY DO YOU THINK
% DEMOCRACY IN WISCONSIN IS IN ANY
% SORT OF EXISTENTIAL DANGER?
% >> WELL, WHEN I WAS WRITING THIS
% BOOK, I WAS LOOKING AT SOME OF
% THE PROBLEMS THAT HAVE BEEN
% CORRODING THE FOUNDATIONS OF OUR
% DEMOCRACY HERE IN WISCONSIN AND
% AROUND THE COUNTRY TO SOME
% EXTENT.
% MONEY IN POLITICS, FOR INSTANCE,
% WE DEAL WITH THAT EVERY DAY AT
% THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRACY%CAMP
AIGN, AND GERRYMANDERING IS
% A HUGE PROBLEM, AND IT IS REARED
% ITS UGLY HEAD AGAIN IN THE LAST
% SEVERAL MONTHS HERE IN
% WISCONSIN, AND SO THAT'S A
% PROBLEM, AND THERE ARE SOME
% OTHER LARGER ISSUES, LIKE RACISM
% AND ECONOMIC INEQUALITY THAT
% HAVE BEEN CORRODING THE
% FOUNDATIONS OF OUR DEMOCRACY,
% AND SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS, I
% THINK, REPRESENT A REAL THREAT,
% AND ON TOP OF THAT IS A THREAT I
% CAN ONLY WAVE AT IN THIS BACK
% BECAUSE I FINISHED WRITING THIS
% ALMOST A YEAR AGO, AND THAT'S
% WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th,
% THE COUP ATTEMPT AND THOSE
% SURROUNDING DONALD TRUMP AND%
WHITE NATIONALISM AND EPIDEMIC
% OF IRRATIONALISM, NOT ONLY ABOUT
% THE NOVEMBER ELECTIONS BUT CRAZY
% E RATIONALISM ABOUT COVID AND
% CRAZY IRRATIONALISM YOU SEE IN
% Q'ANON.
% HARD TO FUNCTION WITH THAT LEVEL
% OF IRRATIONALISM, AND FEEDING
% THIS IS A RIGHT WING MEDIA
% ECOSYSTEM THAT GIVES PEOPLE IN
% THAT CAMP, ESSENTIALLY, AN IV
% DRIP 24/7 OF THAT KIND OF
% PROPAGANDA, AND SO IT IS HARD TO
% BREAKTHROUGH, AND THAT, I THINK,
% IS VERY DANGEROUS TO OUR
% DEMOCRACY, AND HERE IN
% WISCONSIN, THERE WERE
% CO-CONSPIRATORS IN THIS
% JANUARY 6th COUP ATTEMPT.
% BY THAT, THERE WAS 15
% LEGISLATORS WHO SIGNED A LETTER
% TO MIKE PENCE ON JANUARY 5th,
% A YEAR AGO EXACTLY, OF ALL DAYS,
% TELLING THE VICE PRESIDENT NOT
% TO RATIFY THE ELECTORS, THAT
% WISCONSIN SENT TO THE ELECTORAL
% COLLEGE.
% WE HAD TEN FALSE ELECTORS,
% REPUBLICANS WHO WERE IMPOSTER
% ELECTORS.
% THEY SAY THEY WERE THE ACTUAL
% ELECTORS AND TRUMP HAD WON
% WISCONSIN, AND SO THIS DENIALISM
% ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED ON
% NOVEMBER 3rd IS VERY
% TERRIFYING TO ME, ACTUALLY, AS
% IS THE ASSAULT ON THE WISCONSIN
% ELECTIONS COMMISSION, WHICH WE
% SEE ALMOST DAILY, AND ON TOP OF
% THAT, WE HAVE THE MICHAEL
% GABLEMAN FISHING EXPEDITION
% THAT'S COSTING IO US $676,000 OR
% MORE AND TICKING, AND HE WANTS
% TO ARREST THE MAYORS OF GREEN
% BAY AND MADISON.
% THIS IS CRAZINESS.
% WE HAVE NOT SEEN THIS LEVEL OF
% PARTISAN ATTACK ON THE INTEGRITY
% OF OUR COLLECTIONS IN --
% ELECTIONS IN MY LIFETIME.
% IT REALLY IS THE SCARIEST MOMENT
% FOR DEMOCRACY IN WISCONSIN AND
% NATIONWIDE.
% I'VE BEEN COVERING POLITICS FOR
% 40 YEARS AND NEVER SEEN ANYTHING
% LIKE IT.
% >> SO LET'S GET INTO YOUR LIST
% HERE.
% YOU HAVE 12 CHAPTERS, 12 WAYS
% THAT YOU PROPOSE TO SAVE
% DEMOCRACY, SO THE LIST IS
% BANNING GERRYMANDERING, CAMPAIGN
% FINANCE REFORM, MAKING VOTING
% EASIER, REENFRANCHISING FORMER
% PRISONERS, AND BANNING PRISON
% GERRYMANDERING, TIGHTENING
% RECUSAL RULES, DIRECT DEMOCRACY,
% RENT CHOICE VOTING, LOCAL
% CONTROL, SAVE LOCAL MEDIA, ROOT
% OUT RACISM, AND MOVE TOWARDS
% ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY.
% ARE THESE UNIQUE, SPECIFICALLY
% TO WISCONSIN?
% >> WELL, NO, NONE OF THEM ARE
% UNIQUE TO WISCONSIN.
% A LOT OF THEM ARE NATIONAL LIKE
% GERRYMANDERING, CAMPAIGN
% FINANCE, ECONOMIC EQUALITY,
% RACISM, FOR SURE, BUT TAKE ONE
% EASY ONE, LIKE TIGHTENING
% RECUSAL RULES.
% THIS MIGHT SEEM OBSCURE, BUT
% WHAT A RECUSAL RULE IS IS A RULE
% WHEREBY JUDGES OR JUSTICES NEED
% TO GET OFF A CASE WHEN THEY HAVE
% AN OBVIOUS CONFLICT OF INTEREST.
% THEY NEED TO RESCUE THEMSELVES,
% AS THEY SAY.
% NOW, IN WISCONSIN, THE RULE ON
% RECUSAL IS ESSENTIALLY NO RULE
% AT ALL.
% THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT WAS
% INVITED BY THE LEAGUE OF WOMEN
% VOTERS AND BY 54 RETIRED JUDGES
% AND FORMER JUSTICES IN THE
% WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT TO ADOPT
% A TIGHT RULE ON RECUSAL AND
% CONFLICT OF INTEREST, BUT WHAT
% THE WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT DID
% INSTEAD WAS ADOPT A RULE THAT
% WAS WRITTEN BY THE BIGGEST
% LOBBYING OUTFIT IN WISCONSIN,
% WISCONSIN MANUFACTURERS AND
% COMMERCE, AND THE WISCONSIN
% REALTORS, AND, BASICALLY, THE
% RULE SAID IT'S UP TO THE JUDGE
% OR JUSTICE WHETHER HE OR SHE
% COULD GET OFF A CASE OR NOT.
% THAT'S A RULE WITH NO TEETH
% WHATSOEVER.%ON TOP OF THAT,
IF I'M A LAWYER
% IN A CASE BEFORE A JUDGE RIGHT
% NOW, I CAN GIVE THAT JUDGE'S
% RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN A CHECK FOR
% $2,000, AND NEITHER THAT JUDGE
% NOR I NEED TO TELL THE LAWYER ON
% THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CASE I
% JUST GAVE THE JUDGE $2,000.
% I MEAN, THAT'S AN INVITATION TO
% CORRUPTION.
% IT'S BASICALLY LEGALIZED
% BRIBERY, AND WE HAVE TO DO
% BETTER THAN THAT IN WISCONSIN.
% ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS CHANGE THE
% LAW.
% YOU KNOW, GARY HEBEL, STATE
% ASSEMBLY, INTRODUCED A BILL IN
% SEVERAL SESSIONS OF THE
% LEGISLATURE TO DO AWAY WITH THAT
% ABILITY TO ESSENTIALLY LEGALLY
% BRIBE A JUDGE AND TO HAVE SOME
% REAL TOUGH RULES ON RECUSAL, SO,
% YOU KNOW, THAT'S PARTICULAR TO
% WISCONSIN, AND WE ARE FALLING
% BEHIND OTHER STATES, WHICH IS A
% REAL SAD THING FOR ME.
% I CAME TO WISCONSIN 40 YEARS AGO
% BECAUSE I WAS ENTICED BY THE
% PROGRESSIVE TRADITION AND
% TRADITION OF CLEAN GOVERNMENT,
% BUT WE LOST BOTH OF THOSE.
% OTHER STATES ARE BANNING
% GERRYMANDERING AND
% RE-ENFRANCHIING THE FORMALLY
% INCARCERATED AND DOING MORE ON
% CAMPAIGN FINANCE THAN WE ARE.
% SO WE ARE TUMBLING DOWN THE
% LIST.
% >> NOW, YOU SAY IN THE BOOK
% WISCONSIN WAS ONCE A LABORATORY
% OF DEMOCRACY.%NOW, FOR THE L
AST DECADE OR SO,
% THERE ARE MANY EXAMPLES OF
% REPUBLICAN POLICIES ORIGINATING
% IN WISCONSIN AND THEN BEING
% ADOPTED BY OTHER STATES.
% IS WISCONSIN STILL NOT A
% LABORATORY FOR DEMOCRACY EVEN IF
% IT'S NOT FOR THE DEMOCRATIC
% PARTY'S POLICIES?
% ?
% NO, IT'S NOT A LABORATORY FOR
% DEMOCRACY ANYMORE, BUT A LAB FOR
% THE RICH OR REACTION OR A DISH
% FOR THE PRIVATIZERS.
% LOOK WHAT SCOTT WALKER DID
% ATTACKING LABOR UNIONS.
% WE WERE A LEADING STATE AS FAR
% AS GIVING LABOR UNIONS THE RIGHT
% TO ORGANIZE HERE IN WISCONSIN,
% INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO ORGANIZE
% IN THE PUBLIC SECTOR.
% WE WERE THE FIRST STATE TO ALLOW
% THAT, AND WALKER GOT RID OF
% THAT.%>> SO THERE IS A LOT O
F FINGER
% POINTING IN THIS BOOK AT
% REPUBLICANS, AND YOU DO HAVE AN
% OPENLY PROGRESSIVE STANCE ON
% POLITICS, BUT THE VERY NATURE OF
% A LOT OF THESE ISSUES HAS JUST
% BECOME HYPERPOLARRIZED TO HAVE A
% CONVERSATION ABOUT.
% WHAT IS YOUR APPEAL TO
% REPUBLICANS OR CONSERVATIVES WHO
% READ THIS AND MAY WANT TO JUST
% DISMISS IT EARLY ON FOR BEING
% TOO LIBERAL?
% HOW DO YOU BRING THEM INTO THE
% CONVERSATION?%>> WELL, I'M A
LL FOR
% CONVERSATION AND ARGUMENTATION.%
I THINK WE NEED MORE OF THAT
% ACROSS THE AISLE HERE IN
% WISCONSIN.
% I INVITE ANYONE WHO WOULD LIKE
% TO DEBATE ME TO DEBATE ME OR
% JUST, YOU KNOW, HAVE A PRIVATE
% EXCHANGE.
% I'M FOR THAT.
% WE NEED MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO DO
% THAT.
% I HAVE SECTIONS IN EVERY CHAPTER
% ABOUT COUNTER ARGUMENTS AND
% COMPLEXITIES AND TRY TO GIVE
% SOME EXPRESSION TO VIEWS THAT
% DON'T ALIGN WITH MINE, AND I DO
% WANT TO SALUTE A COUPLE
% REPUBLICAN ELECTED OFFICIALS
% RIGHT NOW WHO I THINK HAVE BEEN
% VERY COURAGEOUS, ESPECIALLY
% SENATOR CATHY BERNEER, HEADING
% THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON
% ELECTIONS CALLING THE GABLEMAN
% FISHING EXPEDITION IS CHARADE
% AND NEEDS TO END AND SAID ALMOST
% TEARFULLY IN A PRESS CONFERENCE
% QUOTING BEN FRANKLIN WHO SAID,
% YOU CAN HAVE A REPUBLIC, IF YOU
% CAN KEEP IT.
% SHE SAID WE MAY NOT BE ABLE TO
% KEEP IT AT THE RATE WE'RE GOING.
% THAT WAS VERY POWERFUL.
% I SAW HER IN A PUBLIC HEARING
% WITH OTHER CLERKS AND WITH A
% MEMBER OF THE WISCONSIN
% ELECTIONS COMMISSION SAYING WE
% HAVE ALL OF THESE CHECKS AND
% BALANCES FOR OUR ELECTIONS HERE
% IN WISCONSIN.
% OUR ELECTIONS ARE NOT BEING
% STOLEN, AND THAT WAS COURAGEOUS.
% THE OTHER REPUBLICAN I WANT TO
% SALUTE IS STATE SENATOR ROB
% COLES WHO HEADS THE LEGISLATIVE
% AUDIT COMMITTEE, THE CO-HEAD OF
% IT, AND HE SAID THAT OUR
% ELECTIONS ARE SAFE AND SECURE.
% NOW, THEY ARE UNDER TREMENDOUS
% PRESSURE FROM THEIR BASE AND
% FROM SOME OTHER PEOPLE IN THE
% REPUBLICAN CAUCUS AND THE
% LEGISLATURE TO KEEP HYPING THE
% PROPAGANDA ABOUT THE LAST
% ELECTION AND KEEP REGURGITATING
% TRUMP'S BIG LIE, AND THEY REFUSE
% TO DO THAT, AND THEY DESERVE
% CREDIT FOR DOING THAT.
% >> SOME OF THE TOPICS IN THE
% BOOK, SUCH AS CARRYING OUT THE
% RESULTS OF THE 2020 -- CARRYING
% OUT AND THE RESULTS OF THE 2020
% ELECTION, THESE ARE STILL VERY
% MUCH PLAYING OUT IN REALTIME.
% LOTS OF THINGS EVEN JUST THIS
% MONTH IN JANUARY COMING THROUGH
% THE COURTS.
% HOW MUCH OF YOUR CONCERN FOR THE
% STATE OF DEMOCRACY IN WISCONSIN
% STEMS FROM WHAT'S JUST HAPPENING
% IN THE LAST FIVE TO TEN YEARS OR
% LESS?%>> WELL WITH, A LOT OF
IT
% HAPPENED IN THE LAST YEAR.
% THE LAST YEAR'S MADE ME EVEN
% MORE WORRIED ABOUT THE STATE OF
% OUR DEMOCRACY HERE IN WISCONSIN.
% AND OVER THE LAST TEN YEARS, I
% JUST THINK MONEY AND POLITICS
% HAS BECOME MUCH MORE EXTREME.
% AFTER THE UNITED DECISION, A
% U.S. SUPREME COURT DECISION BACK
% IN 2010, THAT SAID SUPER RICH
% PEOPLE AND OTHER GROUPS CAN
% SPEND AS MUCH MONEY AS THEY P TO
% TRY TO ELECT THIS OR THAT
% CANDIDATE, AND THEN IN 2015, THE
% REPUBLICAN LEGISLATURE, AGAIN,
% WITH THE EXEMPTION OF SENATOR
% ROB COLES, PASSED A BILL THAT
% TOTALLY REWROTE OUR ELECTION LAW
% IN WISCONSIN, WHICH IS
% IRONICALLY CALLED, YOU KNOW,
% CHAPTER 13, AND -- NO, CHAPTER
% 11, IRONIC THEY CALL IT CHAPTER
% 11, THE BANKRUPTCY CHAPTER, AND
% WHAT IT DID IS ALLOW SUPER RICH
% PEOPLE AND CORPORATIONS TO HAVE
% MORE SWAY OVER ELECTIONS THAN%
EVER BEFORE.
% IT ALLOWED CORPORATIONS FOR THE
% FIRST TIME IN 100 YEARS, FOR
% INSTANCE, TO CONTRIBUTE DIRECTLY
% TO POLITICAL PARTIES.
% THE GREAT GOVERNOR AND SENATOR
% FROM OUR STATE WHO HIS WHOLE
% LIFE FOUGHT AGAINST CORPORATE%
CONTROL OF POLITICS WOULD BE
% PATROLLING OVER -- ROLLING OVER
% IN HIS GRAVE RIGHT NOW IF HE SAW
% THAT.
% THEY CAN SPEND UNLIMITED AMOUNTS
% MONEY ON POLITICAL PARTIES,
% BEFORE, THERE WAS A $10,000 DE
% FACTO LIMIT OF WHAT SUPER RICH
% COULD SPEND ON POLITICS, AN NOW
% THERE'S NO LIMIT WHATSOEVER.%
THERE WAS AN EXPRESSION IN
% WISCONSIN THAT'S NOW ANTIQUATED,
% AND THAT WAS, I MAXED OUT, AND
% SOME RICH FOLKS IN WISCONSIN, ON
% BOTH SIDES, WHO LIKE TO PLAY IN
% THE POLITICAL ARENA, ACTUALLY
% LIKE THIS EXPRESSION BECAUSE
% THEY CAN TELL A CANDIDATE WHO
% CAME TO THEM BEGGING FOR ANOTHER
% DONATION, THAT, YOU KNOW WHAT,
% I'D LOVE TO HELP YOU, BUT
% UMIAKSE -- BUT I MAXED OUT, I
% SPENT THE $10,000 LIMIT, AND NOW
% THERE'S NO WAY FOR A SUPER RICH
% PERSON IN WISCONSIN TO MAX OUT.
% >> YOU HAVE TWO CHAPTERS IN
% PARTICULAR I FOUND INTERESTING
% YOU INCORPORATED RELATING TO THE
% INCARCERATED, SO, ONE, END
% PRISON GERRYMANDERING, AND THE
% OTHER IS TO RESTORE VOTING
% RIGHTS TO THOSE RECENTLY
% RELEASED FROM PRISON, BUT THEY
% ARE STILL ON SOME SORT OF PAROLE
% OR PROBATION.%WHY DID THESE
TWO TOPICS IN
% PARTICULAR MAKE YOUR LIST?
% WHEN YOU HEAR ABOUT THEM LESS
% THAN ISSUES LIKE CAMPAIGN
% FINANCE REFORM OR VOTER ID,
% THINGS LIKE THAT.
% >> GLAD YOU BROUGHT THESE UP
% BECAUSE THESE ARE TWO ISSUES
% THAT I'VE BECOME FAMILIAR WITH
% OVER THE LAST OF SEVEN YEARS IN
% THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRACY CAMPUS
% THAT I DIDN'T KNOW THAT MUCH
% ABOUT BEFORE BUT ARE REALLY
% IMPORTANT.
% ONE, RE-ENFRANCHISING THE
% FORMALLY INCARCERATED.
% NOW, THERE'S 64,000 PEOPLE IN
% WISCONSIN RIGHT NOW WHO SERVED
% THEIR TIME.
% THEY PAID THEIR DUES.
% THEY SERVED THEIR TERM BEHIND
% BARS.
% THEY ARE NOW LIVING IN THE
% COMMUNITY.
% STILL, THEY CAN'T VOTE.
% THEY ARE CITIZENS OF WISCONSIN.
% THEY DID THE TIME.
% THEY CAN'T VOTE.
% THEY CAN'T VOTE BECAUSE HERE ON
% PAPER, AS IT'S CALLED, ON
% EXTENDED SUPERVISION AND PAROLE,%
AND SOMETIMES THAT LASTS 10, 12,
% 15 YEARS.
% IF THIGH SERVE THE PENALTY FOR
% THEIR CRIME, THE SEVEREST PART
% OF THE PENALTY, WHICH IS
% SACRIFICING FREEDOM AND LIVING
% BEHIND BARS FOR THE WHOLE TERM
% OF THEIR SENTENCE, THEY SHOULD
% BE ABLE TO VOTE, AND NOW A LOT
% OF STATES INCLUDING OUR
% NEIGHBORING STATES LET PEOPLE
% VOTE ONCE THEY GET OUT BEHIND
% BARS.
% TWO STATES LET PEOPLE VOTE WHILE
% BEHIND BARS, VERMONT AND MAINE,
% BUT HERE IN WISCONSIN, YOU KNOW,
% WE'RE MAKING THESE PEOPLE FEEL
% LIKE A TOTAL OUTCASTS EVEN AFTER
% SERVING THEIR TIME, AND I THINK
% THAT'S WRONG.
% PRISON GERRYMANDERING IS ANOTHER
% ISSUE THAT I DIDN'T KNOW MUCH
% ABOUT.
% NOW PRISON GERRYMANDERING
% ESSENTIALLY MEANS COUNTING YOU
% AS LIVING IN THE PLACE WHERE THE
% PRISON IS LOCATED RATHER THAN
% THE COMMUNITY YOU COME FROM.
% IN OTHER WORDS, IF YOU ARE
% ARRESTED AND CONVICTED IN
% MILWAUKEE AND SENT ELSEWHERE,
% THE CENSUS COUNTS YOU AS LIVING
% IN WAPON FOR TEN YEARS, EVEN
% THOUGH LIKELY YOU'RE ONLY THERE
% FOR A YEAR AND A HALF OR TWO AN.
% AS A RESULT, MILWAUKEE IS
% UNDERCOUNTED AND UNDERRESOURCED.
% WAPON HAS GREATER REPRESENTATION
% AND GREATER RESOURCES THAT FLOW
% FROM THAT REPRESENTATION BECAUSE%
OF THE WAY WE COUNT WHERE
% PRISONERS LIVE, AND THAT SEEMS
% TO BE WRONG.
% AND, AGAIN, OTHER STATES ARE
% MOVING ON THIS ISSUE OF BANNING
% PRISON GERRYMANDERING, AND WE
% ARE NOT MOVING AT ALL.
% >> AND WE HAVE REPORTED ON THAT
% VERY TOPIC OF PRISON
% GERRYMANDERING ON THIS PROGRAM
% SPEAKING TO SPOKES FROM EXPO,
% AND THEY REITERATED THAT THAT IS
% A WAY TO ADDRESS RACISM IN
% WISCONSIN.
% ADDITIONALLY, IN YOUR BOOK, YOU
% TALK ABOUT HOW CAMPAIGN FINANCE
% REFORM IS A WAY TO ADDRESS SOME
% FORMS OF OF RACISM IN WISCONSIN.
% WHY ARE SOME OF THESE THINGS
% DIRECTLY RELATED TO RACE?
% >> WELL, RACE, YOU KNOW,
% UNDERGIRDS A LOT OF WHAT'S WRONG
% WITH OUR COUNTRY AND A LOT OF
% THE MALFUNCTIONING OF OUR
% DEMOCRACY, AND TO IGNORE RACISM
% AS A PROBLEM ACROSS THE BOARD IS
% A MISTAKE, AND IN PARTICULAR IN
% CAMPAIGN FINANCE, FOR INSTANCE,
% BECAUSE OF THE GROSS DISPARITIES
% IN WEALTH AND INCOME ON RACIAL
% LINES IN WISCONSIN AND IN THE
% COUNTRY, BLACK PEOPLE AND
% LATINOS HAVE LESS ABILITY TO
% COMPETE IN THE MONEY GAME, AND
% THE MONEY GAME IS A BIG PART OF
% THE REAL GAME WHO IS ELECTED AND
% WHO DOESN'T AND WHAT LAWS ARE
% PASSED AND WHAT AREN'T, AND WHAT
% POLICIES ARE PURSUED AND WHAT
% ARE JUNKED, AND SO THEY ARE IN A
% DISADVANTAGE THAT WAY.%WE AT
THE WISCONSIN DEMOCRACY
% CAMPAIGN LOOKED AT TOP 50 DONORS
% TO DEMOCRATS AND TOP 50 DONORS
% TO REPUBLICANS, AND WE COULD
% FIND ONLY ONE PERSON WHO WAS NOT
% WHITE, AND SO, YOU KNOW, IF THE
% FUNDING IS BEING DONE PRIMARILY
% BY WHITE FOLKS, YOU KNOW,
% CHANCES ARE THE LAWS THAT ARE
% BEING PASSED OR THE POLICIES
% PURSUED ARE NOT REALLY
% REFLECTING THE NEEDS AND
% INTERESTS OF THE FOLKS WHO ARE
% NOT WHITE.
% >> NOW, I, PARTICULARLY, LIKED
% THE CHAPTER ON SAVING LOCAL
% MEDIA AS WELL AS HOW TO HAVE A
% RESPECTFUL DIALOGUE.
% ARE PEOPLE TOO ENTRENCHED IN
% THEIR OWN ECHO CHAMBERS, AND IS
% THAT CONTRIBUTING TO THIS
% EROSION OF DEMOCRACY?%>> I D
O THINK IT IS POISONOUS
% FOR THE OUR DEMOCRACY TO HAVE
% PEOPLE IN THEIR OWN CAMPS, IN
% THEIR OWN MEDIA ECOSYSTEMS, YOU
% KNOW, YOU CAN BE A LEFTY AND
% WATCHMSNBC AND "MEET THE
% NATION," OR BE A PROGRESSIVE AND
% DEMOCRACY NOW ON THE RADIO, AND
% LIVE IN MADISON AND NOT BUMP
% INTO ANYBODY WHO DISAGREES WITH
% YOU AND BE A RIGHT WINGER
% ELSEWHERE IN THE STATE AND
% LISTEN TO FOX NEWS AND READING
% RIGHT WING STUFF ON THE TABLETS,
% AND BECAUSE OF THE ALGORITHMS,
% YOU ARE FED MORE AND MORE OF
% THAT STUFF AND YOU'RE IN
% SEPARATE MEDIA UNIVERSES AND
% SEPARATE CAMPS, AND YOU VIEW THE
% OTHER PERSON AS NOT ONLY HAVING
% DIFFERENT IDEAS THAN YOU HAVE,
% BUT AS BEING EVIL AND AS BEING,
% YOU KNOW, TOTALLY OFF THE
% CHARTS, SOMEONE YOU CAN'T EVEN
% HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH, AND I
% THINK WE NEED MORE CONVERSATIONS
% ACROSS THE AISLE.
% WE NEED TO FIND FORUMS WHERE WE
% CAN HAVE CIVIL DIALOGUE AND SO
% I'M LOOKING FOR THOSE FORUMS.
% I'M HOPING TO HAVE MORE OF THEM
% HERE IN WISCONSIN, AND WE CAN'T
% GIVE UP ON EACH OTHER.
% I MEAN, HALF OF THE PEOPLE OF
% WISCONSIN VOTED FOR A CANDIDATE
% THAT THE OTHER HALF DIDN'T.
% NOW, NOT EVERYBODY IN THE OTHER
% SIDE IS AN EVIL PERSON, AND WE
% GOT TO FIGURE OUT HOW WE CAN
% FIRST LISTEN TO EACH OTHER.
% I THINK THAT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.
% TRY TO CONNECTS WITH OTHER
% PEOPLE, UNLESS, OF COURSE, THE
% OTHER PEOPLE ARE, YOU KNOW,
% WAVING CONFEDERATE FLAGS AND
% HAVE SWASTIKA TATTOOS ON THE
% MUSCLES, I'M NOT A LEFT WING
% JEWISH ATHEIST GOING TO ENGAGE
% IN A CONVERSATION WITH THAT
% PERSON BECAUSE IT COULD BE
% DANGEROUS FOR ME, FRANKLY, BUT
% THAT'S THE MAJORITY OF THE
% PEOPLE WHO VOTED IN WAYS
% DIFFERENT THAN I DO OR VIEW THE
% WORLD IN A WAY DIFFERENT THAN I
% DO.
% THERE'S SO MANY PEOPLE IN THE
% STATE, AND I HAVE SOME FRIENDS
% WHO ARE IN THIS CATEGORY TOO,
% REALLY GOOD PEOPLE, NICE PEOPLE,
% DID NOT VOTE THE WAY I VOTED.
% I'M TRYING TO HAVE CONVERSATIONS
% WITH MANY OF THEM, AND I THINK
% WE NEED TO BRING PEOPLE BACK
% FROM THE ABYSS OF
% ANTI-DEMOCRACY.%I SEE THIS A
NTI-DEMOCRACY
% MOVEMENT SWEEPING THIS COUNTRY,
% AND ALIVE AND KICKING HERE IN
% WISCONSIN, AND IT SCARES THE
% BEJESUS OUT OF ME, FRANKLY.
% >> AND, SINCE THE PANDEMIC, I
% MEAN, THERE'S WAYS IN WHICH
% WE'VE BECOME MORE ISOLATED, BUT
% THERE'S ALSO WAYS IN WHICH THE
% INTERNET HAS ALLOWED US TO
% BECOME MORE CONNECTED, SO,
% DEFINITELY TWO SIDES OF THE COIN
% THERE, SO YOUR FINAL CHAPTER IS
% ON HOPE.
% WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT TO YOU,
% AND HOW DO YOU FORESEE MOVEMENTS
% ON THE IDEAS THAT YOU HAVE LAID
% OUT IN THIS BOOK?
% >> WELL, YEAH.
% HOPE IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE TO
% HAVE JUST TO GET OUT OF BED IN
% THE MORNING, AND IF YOU'RE A
% POLITICAL PERSON, YOU NEED TO
% HAVE IT; OTHERWISE, YOU WOULDN'T
% ENGAGE IN THIS POLITICS, AND I
% ALSO HAVE HOPE BECAUSE I WORK
% WITH A LOT OF TREMENDOUS
% PRO-DEMOCRACY NONPROFITS, AND
% ACTIVISTS WITHIN AND OUTSIDE
% THOSE NONPROFITS HERE IN
% WISCONSIN.
% WE'RE LUCKY IN THIS STATE TO
% HAVE SO MANY GROUPS OUT THERE
% DOING SUCH GREAT WORK.
% I'M REFERRING TO, LIKE, THE
% LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS, A
% TREMENDOUS ORGANIZATION.
% COMMON CAUSE, BLOCK, LIP, THE
% AFRICAN-AMERICAN ROUND TABLE,
% WISCONSIN CONSERVATION VOTERS,
% WISCONSIN FARMERS UNION.
% THEY ARE JUST SO MANY GOOD
% ORGANIZATIONS DOING GREAT WORK
% ACROSS THE STATE, AND I TRAVEL
% AROUND THE STATE GIVING TALKS,
% AT LEAST I DID SO BEFORE COVID,
% AND I WOULD MEET THESE FOLKS ALL
% THE TIME JUST DOING GREAT WORK
% IN EVERY COMMUNITY, AND LOOK AT
% THE CIVIL RIGHTS PROTESTS THAT
% HAPPENED A YEAR AND A HALF AGO.
% THEY HAPPENED IN MORE THAN 48
% COMMUNITIES.
% MANY OF THESE COMMUNITIES HAD
% NEVER SEEN A CIVIL RIGHTS
% PROTEST, YOU KNOW, IN THEIR
% LIVES, AND SO THAT'S ENCOURAGING
% TO ME, AND SO I TAKE HOPE FROM
% THAT.
% I ALSO TAKE HOPE FROM THE
% TEACHINGS OF HOWARD ZEN, WHO
% WROTE FOR ME WHEN I WAS AT THE
% PROGRESSIVE FOR MANY YEARS AND
% ALSO WORKED FOR RALPH NADER OUT
% OF COLLEGE, BOTH STRESSING THE
% NEED FOR CITIZEN ACTIVISM AND
% NEED FOR NON-VIOLENT MASS
% MOVEMENTS, AND THOSE ARE THINGS
% THAT GIVE ME HOPE STILL TO THIS
% DAY.%>> NOW, TOMORROW IS THE
ONE-YEAR
% ANNIVERSARY OF THE INSURRECTION
% ON THE U.S. CAPITOL.
% DO YOU THINK STRENGTHENING
% DEMOCRACY NATIONWIDE THROUGH
% IDEAS YOU PUT FORTH IN THIS BOOK
% COULD PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE
% THAT FROM HAPPENING AGAIN EITHER
% AT THE U.S. CAPITOL OR EVEN HERE
% IN OUR OWN STATE?
% >> WELL, I THINK WE NEED
% SOMETHING MORE EVEN THAN THE
% IDEAS SKETCHED INTO THE BOOK,
% FRANKLY.%I THINK, FIRST OF AL
L, GARLAND,
% UNITED STATES ATTORNEY OF THE%
UNITED STATES, HAS A LEGAL,
% MORAL, AND HISTORICAL OBLIGATION
% TO INDICT DONALD TRUMP FOR
% ELECTION TAMPERING AND
% CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT SUBVERSION.
% DONALD TRUMP NEEDS TO BE HELD
% ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE CRIMES
% AGAINST OUR DEMOCRACY.
% WHEN YOU ARE THE PRESIDENT OF
% THE UNITED STATES AND YOU CALL
% UP THE SECRETARY OF STATE OF
% GEORGIA SAY, JUST GIVE ME 11,780
% VOTES, THAT'S THE VERY
% DEFINITION OF ELECTION
% TAMPERING.
% WHEN HE WAS PLOTTING WITH PEOPLE
% IN THE OVAL OFFICE ABOUT, YOU
% KNOW, SIX WAYS HE COULD OVERTURN
% THE ELECTION AND NOT HAVE VICE
% PRESIDENT PENCE RATIFY THE
% ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES, THAT'S
% CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT SUBVERSION.
% HE NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.
% ON TOP OF THAT, WE HAVE TO DO
% THINGS TO PREVENT A PRESIDENT IN
% THE FUTURE FROM OVERTURNING OUR
% DEMOCRACY.
% ONE OF THOSE THINGS IS TO TAKE
% OFF THE BOOKS THE INSURRECTION
% ACT.
% THERE'S A LAW CALLED THE
% INSURRECTION ACT THAT ALLOWS THE
% PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES
% TO PUT U.S. TROOPS IN THE
% STREETS OF THIS COUNTRY.
% TRUMP, ON JANUARY 19th, 2021
% COULD HAVE INVOKED THE
% INSURRECTION ACT TO STAY IN
% POWER.
% THERE'S ALSO THE NATIONAL
% EMERGENCY ACT ALLOWING THE
% PRESIDENT AND PRESIDENT ALONE TO
% DECLARE A NATIONAL EMERGENCY FOR
% 30 DAYS AND BASICALLY SUSPEND
% OUR SYSTEM OF CHECKS AND
% BALANCES.
% I MEAN, WE CANNOT LEAVE THESE
% LOADED GUNS IN THE TOP DRAWER OF
% THE OVAL OFFICE FOR THE NEXT
% DONALD TRUMP WHO COMES IN.
% >> ALL RIGHT.
% WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
% MATT ROTHSCHILD, AUTHOR OF "12
% WAYS TO SAVE DEMOCRACY IN
% WISCONSIN," THANK YOU FOR THE%
CONVERSATION.%>> MY PLEASURE.
% THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON.
% >> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
% AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS, AND THANK%
YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON
% "NOON WEDNESDAY."