% >>> WELCOME TO "NOON
% WEDNESDAY," I'M MARISA WOJCIK,
% MULTIMEDIA JOURNALIST WITH "HERE%
& NOW" ON PBS WISCONSIN.
% TODAY IS OCTOBER 27.
% AFTER TEN YEARS SINCE WISCONSIN
% LAST REDREW POLITICAL LINES,
% REDISTRICTING IS HAPPENING
% AGAIN.
% NOW STATEWIDE.
% THE LAST TIME THIS PROCESS
% HAPPENED IN 2011 WAS SO
% SIGNIFICANT THAT IT CHANGED THE
% NATURE OF WISCONSIN POLITICS FOR
% THE NEXT DECADE.
% IN FACT, IT WAS SO IMPORTANT TO
% WISCONSIN'S HISTORY THAT TWO
% WISCONSIN PUBLIC RADIO
% JOURNALISTS MADE AN ENTIRE
% PODCAST SERIES ABOUT IT CALLED,
% "WPR PRESENTS: MAPPED OUT" AND
% BRIDGIT BOWDEN AND SHAWN JOHNSON
% JOIN ME NOW.
% THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING
% HERE.
% >> THANKS FOR HAVING US.
% >> SO, BRIDGIT, I'LL START WITH
% YOU.
% THE SERIES, BY THE WAY, WHICH IS
% JUST AMAZING.
% IT IS SO RICH IN AUDIO AND
% CONTENT, BUT IT STARTS BY
% CONTRASTING THE SCENE OF THE
% 2011AFTON PROTESTS OUTSIDE THE
% CAPITOL.
% WAS THAT OF THE REPUBLICAN HIRED
% LAWYERS WHO ARE ACROSS THE
% STREET QUIETLY WORKING AWAY
% INSIDE THE MAP ROOM, THEN TAKES
% US THROUGH THE HISTORY TO WHERE
% WE ARE TODAY WITH THE EPISODE
% CALLED "LOCKED IN."
% THIS IS A COMPLEX TOPIC.
% IS IT FOR THOSE WHO NEED A
% LITTLE BIT OF A HISTORY LESSON?
% >> I THINK THAT THE PODCAST IS
% REALLY FOR BOTH GROUPS OF
% PEOPLE.
% WE START OUT IN EPISODE ONE WITH
% A VERY BASIC LESSON ABOUT WHAT
% IS REDISTRICTING.
% IF YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE
% WHO IS STARTING AT SQUARE ONE
% AND HAS NOT REALLY HEARD OF
% REDISTRICTING BEFORE, WE GOT
% YOU.
% START WITH EPISODE ONE AND LEARN
% ALL ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS AND THE
% IMPACTS MUCH REDISTRICTING, AND
% IN THE LATER EPISODES, WE GET
% INTO THE MEATY DETAILS ABOUT
% WHAT HAPPENED IN 2011, WHAT IT
% MEANT FOR THE STATE, AND ALSO
% WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN THIS
% YEAR, SO I THINK THAT BOTH OF
% THOSE GROUPS OF PEOPLE WOULD
% ENJOY THIS PODCAST.
% >> AND, SHAWN, WHAT DID
% WISCONSIN'S MAPS AND THE
% LANDSCAPE OF STATE POLITICS LOOK
% LIKE BEFORE AND AFTER THE MAPS
% WERE DRAWN, AND JUST WHY EXACTLY
% WERE 2011 MAPS SO CONSEQUENTIAL?
% >> WELL, IF YOU LOOK AT JUST A
% COUPLE YEARS BEFORE THESE MAPS
% WERE DRAWN, AND IT IS HARD TO
% IMAGINE NOW, BUT WE HAD
% DEMOCRATIC CONTROL OF STATE
% GOVERNMENT IN WISCONSIN, AND,
% REALLY, WE SHOULD SAY MORE
% BROADLY, YOU HAD A DEMOCRAT IN
% THE WHITE HOUSE, DEMOCRATIC
% CONTROL OF CONGRESS, DEMOCRATIC
% CONTROLLED EVERYTHING, AND, YOU
% KNOW, THE WAY THINGS TYPICALLY
% GO AND HAVE HISTORICALLY GONE IN
% THOSE SITUATIONS IS IN THE
% MIDTERM ELECTION, THE PARTY OUT
% OF POWER HAS A GOOD YEAR, AND
% THAT WAS THE CASE FOR
% REPUBLICANS IN 2010, AND THEY
% WERE, YOU KNOW, SWEPT INTO POWER
% IN 2011, AND JUST HAD, YOU KNOW,
% ENORMOUS PENT UP AGENDA THAT,
% YOU KNOW, THEY PASSED THAT YEAR
% THAT I THINK YOU COULD
% DEFINITELY SAY WILL, YOU KNOW,
% BE A PART OF WISCONSIN'S HISTORY
% FOR YEARS TO COME WHEN YOU'RE
% TALKING ABOUT CHANGING UNION
% RIGHTS, FIREARM LAWS, YOU KNOW,
% YOU NAME IT, THIS WAS A CHANCE
% FOR REPUBLICANS TO DO WHAT THEY
% WANTED TO DO.
% AS PART OF THAT, THEY PASSED
% THIS MAP, AND THAT ALLOWS THEM
% TO, YOU KNOW, BORROW FROM THE
% TITLE OF TODAY "LOCK IN" THAT
% SESSION, AND BEYOND THAT FOR THE
% NEXT DECADE, THERE'S NEVER
% REALLY IN ANY THREAT OF LOSING
% THE MAJORITY, AND SO YOU SAW AN
% AMBITIOUS REPUBLICAN AGENDA
% THROUGHOUT THE DECADE.
% >> BRIDGIT, YOU SPOKE TO
% WISCONSIN PEOPLE WHO LIVED THE
% IMPACTS OF THE MA'AM AND THOSE%
WHO TRIED TO RUN FOR STATE
% LEGISLATURE.
% WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM THOSE
% PERSONAL STORIES?
% >> RIGHT.
% SO WE WANTED TO TRAVEL TO
% VARIOUS PARTS OF THE STATE AND
% LOOK AT WHAT THIS 2011 MAP
% REALLY MEANT SO WE LOOKED AT THE
% MAPS, AND WE SAW A FEW PLACES
% WHERE THERE WERE DISTINCT
% CHANGES THAT HAPPENED IN THE
% 2011 SO WE WENT AND FOUND SOME
% PEOPLE WHO COULD TELL US WHAT IT
% MEANT, PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN THOSE
% PLACES.
% SO WE TALKED TO A WOMAN WHO
% LIVES IN FOREST, WISCONSIN, FOR
% EXAMPLE, NORTH OF MADISON, AND
% SHE'S A MEMBER OF THE VILLAGE
% BOARD.
% FOREST IN 2011 WAS SPLIT UP INTO
% THREE DIFFERENT ASSEMBLY
% DISTRICTS AND THREE DIFFERENT
% SENATE DISTRICTS.
% SO SHE TO TOLD US AS AN ELECTED
% OFFICIAL, WHEN SHE TRIES TO TALK
% TO STATE REPRESENTATIVES AND
% SENATORS, SHE HAS TO CONTACT SIX
% DIFFERENT PEOPLE BECAUSE THERE'S
% SIX PEOPLE WHO REPRESENT THE
% AREA OF FOREST, AND SO, YOU
% KNOW, THAT'S A TANGIBLE IMPACT
% OF THIS MAP.
% WE ALSO WENT TO LECLAIRE WHERE
% WE MET A WOMAN WHO TRIED TO RUN
% FOR OFFICE.
% SHE'S A DEMOCRAT.
% SHE RAN IN A DISTRICT THAT IS
% NOW A HEAVILY REPUBLICAN
% DISTRICT, AND WHAT SHE TOLD US
% IS SHE'LL NEVER TRY TO RUN AGAIN
% BECAUSE SHE FEELS LIKE SHE
% DOESN'T HAVE ANY SORT OF SHOT.
% SO YOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE IN
% PEOPLE'S REAL LIVES WHAT THE
% 2011 MAP DID ACROSS THE STATE.
% >> AND, SHAWN, 2011'S MAPS
% EVENTUALLY WOUND UP IN THE U.S.
% SUPREME COURT WHERE THE IDEAS OF
% A PARTISAN ADVANTAGE VERSUS A
% PARTISAN GERRYMANDER WERE REALLY
% PICKED APART AND PUT ON STAGE.
% THIS CURRENT ROUND OF
% REDISTRICTING HAPPENING RIGHT
% NOW IS LIKELY TO ALSO END UP IN
% THE COURT.
% CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT IS THE
% DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND A
% GERRYMANDER, AND WHY IS IT SO
% DIFFICULT TO MAKE CHANGES,
% PARTISAN GERRYMANDER
% SPECIFICALLY.%>> I DON'T KNO
W WHERE THE LINE
% IS BETWEEN GERRYMANDER.
% THE COURTS JUST DECIDED THEY
% WILL NOT DRAW THE LINE,
% ESPECIALLY THE FEDERAL COURT
% SYSTEM DECIDED BECAUSE OF A
% DECISION BY THE U.S. SUPREME
% COURT THAT PARTISAN
% GERRYMANDERING CASES ARE NOT
% SOMETHING THAT THE FEDERAL COURT
% SYSTEM IS GOING TO DECIDE.
% THEY ARE NOT DENYING THAT
% PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING, THE MAP
% DRAWING THAT GIVES ONE PARTY THE
% ADVANTAGE OVER ANOTHER, IS
% HAPPENING.
% THEY ARE JUST SAYING, WE ARE NOT
% GOING TO DECIDE WHEN IT BECOMES
% SO SEVERE THAT YOU HAVE VIOLATED
% THE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF THE
% PARTY THAT IS NOT DRAWING THE
% MAP, THE PARTY THAT IS NOT IN
% POWER.
% AND SO AS WE ENTER, YOU KNOW,
% THE 2021-22 ROUND OF
% REDISTRICTING, YOU KNOW, AS YOU
% MENTIONED, WE KNOW THIS IS GOING
% TO COURT.
% WE ARE NOT QUITE SURE WHICH
% COURT IS GOING TO DECIDE IT
% BECAUSE RIGHT NOW IT IS BEFORE
% THE STATE SUPREME COURT AND A
% FEDERAL PANEL.
% RIGHT NOW, THE STATE SUPREME
% COURT GETS FIRST CRACK AT IT,
% AND WHAT WE DO KNOW IS THAT THE,
% YOU KNOW, THE HOPES OF SOME
% DEMOCRATS SPECIFICALLY IN
% WISCONSIN THAT WE'D HAVE, YOU
% KNOW, KIND OF A BASELINE FOR
% WHEN A MAP GETS TOO PARTISAN AND
% THAT YOU CAN BRING THAT KIND OF
% CASE IN 2021.
% THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
% THEY HAVE TO FIGHT THIS OUT ON
% OTHER GROUNDS.
% >> BRIDGIT, THERE'S AUDIO OF
% ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER, A
% REPUBLICAN, WITH THE PROSECUTION
% FOLLOWING THE ARGUMENTS BEFORE
% THE SUPREME COURT, AND IT IS
% GREAT AUDIO.
% HE SAYS AUSTA LA VISTA,
% GERRYMANDERING.
% SOME MAY SEE THIS AS A DEMOCRATS
% VERSUS REPUBLICANS ISSUE.
% NATIONALLY, IS IT BIPARTISAN, OR
% IS IT ONE PARTY HAVING
% DOMINATION OVER THE OTHER?
% >> RIGHT.
% SO YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
% IN WISCONSIN THIS IS AN ISSUE
% THAT WE MOSTLY HERE DEMOCRATS
% CALLING FOR REDISTRICTING
% REFORM, BUT ACROSS THE COUNTRY,
% IT REALLY DEPENDS ON YOUR
% POLITICAL CIRCUMSTANCES.
% SO IN OTHER PLACES, MAYBE PLACES
% LONG CONTROLLED BY DEMOCRATS
% WHERE DEMOCRATS HAD CONTROL OVER
% MAP DRAWING, THERE ARE
% REPUBLICANS WHO ARE CALLING FOR
% REDISTRICTING REFORM.
% GREAT EXAMPLE OF THIS IS
% ILLINOIS.
% ILLINOIS IS CONTROLLED BY
% DEMOCRATS, AND WE SEE REPUBLICAN
% LAWMAKERS THERE ASKING FOR VERY
% SIMILAR REFORMS AS WE HEAR FROM
% WISCONSIN DEMOCRATS.
% OTHER STATES LIKE MARYLAND HAVE
% ALSO SEEN DEMOCRATIC
% GERRYMANDERS, AND THEN YOU SEE
% REPUBLICANS BEING THE ONES
% ASKING FOR REFORM.
% SO IT, YOU KNOW, IT IS AN ISSUE
% THAT IS NOT ONE PARTY'S ISSUE OR
% ANOTHER PARTY'S ISSUE, BUT IT
% REALLY DEPENDS ON THE POLITICAL
% CIRCUMSTANCES OF YOUR STATE.
% IN OUR FINAL EPISODE, EPISODE 6,
% YOU'LL HEAR MORE ABOUT THAT NEXT
% WEEK, AND YOU'LL HEAR FROM OTHER
% REPUBLICANS WHO CHAMPIONED THIS
% ISSUE.
% >> SO, SHAWN, IF WISCONSIN'S
% CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT THE
% LEGISLATURE MUST DRAW MAPS OF
% THE LEGISLATURE'S OWN DISTRICTS,
% ISN'T THAT A CONFLICT OF
% INTEREST, AND AT THIS POINT, IF
% THOSE DISTRICTS ARE ALREADY
% LOCKED IN TO HAVE A CERTAIN
% ADVANTAGE FOR REPUBLICANS, IS
% THAT GOING TO CONTINUE TO
% COMPOUND, AND IS THERE ANY WAY
% OUT OF IT?
% IS THERE ANY OTHER WAY THAT
% THESE MAPS CAN OR SHOULD BE
% DRAWN?%>> I THINK THE QUESTIO
N OF
% WHETHER IT'S A CONFLICT OF
% INTEREST FOR THE LEGISLATURE, I
% THINK WE CAN LOOK AT IT
% PRACTICALLY AND SAY, YEAH, YOU
% KNOW?
% THEY HAVE A DEFINITE CONFLICT OF
% INTEREST THERE JUST FROM A
% PRACTICAL RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOUR
% OWN EYES PERSPECTIVE, BUT IN
% TERMS OF LAW, THE CONSTITUTION
% SAYS THE LEGISLATURE DOES IT.
% THE IDEA BEING THAT THE
% LEGISLATURE IS THE VOICE OF THE
% PEOPLE, AND SO IT IS DEFINITELY
% WITHIN THEIR PURVIEW TO DO THAT.%
YOU KNOW, THEY ARE GOING TO GET
% A CHANCE TO DRAW THE MAPS.
% ANYTHING THEY DO NEEDS APPROVAL
% OF THE GOVERNOR, THOUGH.
% THE GOVERNOR IS, RIGHT NOW,
% DEMOCRATIC GOVERNOR TONY EVERS,
% AND HE'S ALREADY SENT CLEAR
% SIGNS HE'S GOING TO VETO THE MAP
% THAT REPUBLICANS HAVE DEVELOPED.
% HE'S CALLING IT GERRYMANDERING
% 2.0.
% SO THAT LEES US IN THE COURTS.
% AND THERE IS A CHANCE THAT A
% COURT, YOU KNOW, THE STATE
% SUPREME COURT COULD SAY, LOOK,
% WE DON'T WANT TO MESS WITH THE
% MAP TOO MUCH.
% WE'RE GOING TO MAKE AS FEW
% CHANGES AS POSSIBLE OF THE
% THAT'S WHAT REPUBLICANS HOPE THE
% STATE SUPREME COURT WILL SAY.
% THERE'S ALSO A CHANCE THE COURT,
% IF IT'S NOT THE STATE SUPREME
% COURT, IT COULD BE A FEDERAL
% COURT.
% SAYS WE ARE NOT BEHOLDEN TO LOOK
% AT THIS MAP FROM A DECADE AGO.
% WE'RE GOING TO REDRAW THIS MAP
% USING, YOU KNOW, OBJECTIVE
% CRITERIA AND, YOU KNOW, DO THE
% BEST VERSION OF THE MAP WE CAN
% DO RIGHT NOW IN 2021.
% WE'RE NOT BEHOLDEN TO A DECISION
% FROM THE LEGISLATURE OF 2011.
% YOU -- I THINK AT THIS POINT IN
% THE PROCESS YOU CAN DEFINITELY
% SEE IT GOING EITHER WAY.
% >> AND, BRIDGIT, YOU ALREADY
% TOUCHED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT,
% BUT WHAT CAN WE EXPECT FROM
% FUTURE EPISODES?
% YOU HAVE AN EPISODE NEXT WEEK,
% BUT YOU ALSO TEASE A LITTLE BIT
% THAT THERE MIGHT BE SOME MORE
% COMING, EVEN FURTHER AFTER NEXT
% WEEK?%>> YEAH.
% SO NEXT WEEK, NEXT WEDNESDAY IS
% THE LAST EPISODE OF OUR FIRST
% BATCH OF EPISODES, AND IT IS
% SORT OF ABOUT ALL OF THE OPTIONS
% OF WHAT COULD HAPPEN THIS YEAR.
% THAT SAID, REDISTRICTING IS
% HAPPENING THIS YEAR.
% WE WILL BE FOLLOWING UP
% WHENEVER, WHATEVER WHAT%HAPP
ENSES IS GOING TO HAPPEN,
% AND WE'LL FOLLOW UP WITH
% EPISODES THAT KEEP YOU INFORMED
% ON THAT.
% >> ALL RIGHT.
% AND LASTLY, SHAWN, YOU REPORTED
% ON THIS FOR WPR AS IT WAS
% HAPPENING THE LAST TEN YEARS.
% DID ANYTHING SURPRISE YOU,
% SPECIFICALLY, AS YOU DUG INTO
% THE ARCHIVES?
% TALKED WITH SOME OF THE KEY
% PLAYERS.%WHAT SPECIFICALLY AR
E YOU
% LOOKING FOR AS THE CURRENT
% POLITICAL FIGHT GOES FORWARD?
% >> I THINK THAT WHENEVER YOU
% SPEND A LOT OF TIME ON ONE
% TOPIC, LIKE WE HAVE HERE, AND
% YOU REALLY ANALYZE EVERYONE'S
% WORDS FROM A DECADE AGO, I THINK
% WHAT STRUCK ME IS JUST HOW, I
% GUESS, FUZZY THE REDISTRICTING
% CRITERIA THAT MAPMAKERS HAVE TO
% FOLLOW.%YOU KNOW, YOU CAN DE
CIDE AS A
% MAP MAKER, A LEGISLATOR, THAT
% WE'RE GOING TO EMPHASIZE ONE
% CRITERIA OVER HERE, MAYBE
% KEEPING URBAN COMMUNITIES
% TOGETHER, AND THEN IN ANOTHER
% PART OF THE STATE SAY, WE'RE
% GOING TO SPLIT THIS CITY APART,
% SATISFYING TWO COMPLETELY%DI
FFERENT CRITERIA, BUT AS LONG
% AS YOU KIND OF SAY THAT'S WHAT
% WE'RE DOING, WE'RE FOLLOWING
% THESE CRITERIA, YOU HAVE A LOT
% OF LEEWAY AS A LEGISLATOR,
% ESPECIALLY WHEN THE GOVERNOR'S
% FROM YOUR OWN PARTY.
% I GUESS IT WAS JUST LISTENING
% BACK TO SOME OF THE DEBATES AND
% SOME OF WHAT SOUNDED AT THE TIME
% LIKE REALLY, YOU KNOW, TECHNICAL
% JARGIN.
% NOW A DECADE LATER, YOU SEE WHY
% IT WAS PRESENTED THAT WAY AND
% THE POWER OF THOSE WORDS, AND
% WHAT THEY ULTIMATELY MEANT, YOU
% KNOW, THAT THAT IS KIND OF
% FOUNDATION OF POWER IN WISCONSIN
% IS THIS KIND OF GRAY AREA OF
% WHAT MAKES A MAP OKAY.
% >> ALL RIGHT.
% WE LEAVE IT THERE.
% SHAWN JOHNSON AND BRIDGIT
% BOWDEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
% JOINING US.
% >> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
% >> THANKS FOR HAVING US.
% >> IT IS A REALLY GREAT SERIES.
% YOU CAN FIND IT AT
% WPR.ORG/PRESENTS, AND FOR MORE
% FROM "HERE & NOW" AND PBS
% WISCONSIN, VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS.