% >>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
% I'M MARISA WOJCIK MULTIMEDIA
% JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
% PBS WISCONSIN.%TODAY IS SEPTE
MBER 22.% FOR MANY REASONS, 2020 IS
GOING
% TO HAVE A LASTING IMPACT AND ONE
% OF THOSE IS THE PRESIDENTIAL
% ELECTION.
% A RECENT SURVEY ASKED CLERKS AND
% VOTERS ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCES
% OF THE 2020 ELECTION, AND
% JOINING ME TO TELL US ABOUT THAT
% SURVEY AND THE RESULTS IS BARRY
% BURDEN, A UW-MADISON PROFESSOR
% OF POLITICAL SCIENCE AND
% DIRECTOR OF THE ELECTIONS
% RESEARCH CENTER, AND THANK YOU
% SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
% >> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
% GLAD TO BE HERE.
% >> FIRST, WITH VOTERS, WAS THERE
% CONSENSUS FROM VOTERS ON HOW
% THEY EXPERIENCED THE 2020
% ELECTION, AND DID ANY GROUPS
% REPORT PARTICULAR DIFFICULTY
% VOTING?%>> YEAH.
% SO THE STUDY, THE REPORT IS
% BASED ON SURVEYS OF BOTH THE
% PUBLIC AND LOCAL ELECTION
% OFFICIALS, AND THE PUBLIC GAVE
% THE ELECTION REALLY HIGH MARKS.
% I ASKED THEM SPECIFICALLY IN THE
% SURVEY WHETHER THEY ENCOUNTERED
% DIFFICULTY, ESPECIALLY WITH THE
% SHIFT TO ABSENTEE VOTING, WHICH
% WAS NEW FOR A LOT OF VOTERS.
% THE VAST MAJORITY SAID IT WAS AN
% EASY PROCESS, HAPPY WITH THE
% ELECTION, AND THOSE WHO VOTED IN
% PERSON, MOST HAD SHORT WAITING
% TIMES, THAT'S BEEN THE TRADITION
% IN WISCONSIN, AND IT HELD IN
% 2020, AND SO I THINK THE BROAD
% MESSAGE IS ONE OF GREAT SUCCESS
% DESPITE ALL THE DIFFICULTIES AND
% VERY HIGH LEVELS OF TURNOUT, THE
% SHIFTS THAT HAD TO HAPPEN TO
% MOVE POLLING PLACES FROM OLD
% LOCATIONS TO NEW LOCATIONS,
% VOTERS MOSTLY HAD GOOD
% EXPERIENCES.
% THERE WERE SOME POCKETS OF THE
% POPULATION THAT CONTINUE TO HAVE
% DIFFICULTY, AND MAYBE MORE
% DIFFICULTY IN 2020 THAN IN OTHER
% YEARS.
% IN PARTICULAR, THREE JUMP OUT.
% THOSE ARE YOUNG PEOPLE, PEOPLE
% WITH DISABILITIES, AND NON-WHITE
% MINORITY VOTERS.
% ALL THREE OF THOSE GROUPS WERE
% LIKELY IN THE SURVEY TO SAY THEY
% HAD SOME DIFFICULTY WITH THE
% ABSENTEE VOTING PROCESS, EITHER
% GETTING A WITNESS SIGNATURE OR
% GETTING THE BALLOT IN ON TIME OR
% MAKING THE REQUEST.
% THERE WAS SOME DIFFICULTY VOTING
% IN PERSON.
% THE WAIT TIMES TO VOTE WERE
% LONGER FOR YOUNG PEOPLE, PEOPLE
% WITH DISABILITIES, AND MINORITY
% VOTERS.
% THIS CONTINUED TO BE TROUBLE
% SPOTS.
% I THINK FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.
% YOU KNOW, YOUNG VOTERS,
% ESPECIALLY COLLEGE AGE STUDENTS,
% WERE OFTEN RELOCATED OR
% DISLOCATED DURING THE PANDEMIC,
% MOVING MAYBE FROM CAMPUS BACK TO
% THEIR PARENTS' HOME OR SOMETHING
% ELSE AND FIGURING OUT THE
% ABSENTEE VOTING PROCESS OR
% SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND THAT
% CREATED MANY PROBLEMS AND MANY
% OF THEM VOTED IN PERSON,
% PROBABLY, AS A SIDE EFFECT OF
% ALL OF THAT.
% >> AND SHIFTING OVER TO CLERKS.
% WHY WAS IT DIFFICULT FOR YOU TO
% SUMMARIZE ALL OF THE EXPERIENCES
% OF MUNICIPAL CLERKS, AND WHAT
% DID THEY REPORT AS DIFFICULTY
% ADMINISTERING THE ELECTION?
% >> WELL, WISCONSIN HAS A
% SOMEWHAT UNUSUAL SYSTEM OF
% ELECTION ADMINISTRATION.
% IT IS BASED AT THE MUNICIPAL
% LEVEL SO EVERY CITY, VILLAGE,
% AND TOWN HAS ITS OWN ELECTION
% CLERK, WHETHER IT IS THE CITY OF
% MILWAUKEE WITH OVER 400,000
% PEOPLE OR THE SMALL TOWN THAT
% MIGHT HAVE A FEW HUNDRED PEOPLE.
% IN FACT, THE TYPICAL CLERK
% SERVES LESS THAN 1,000 VOTERS.
% IT IS VERY DECENTRALIZED.
% THERE IS A HUGE RANGE IN THE
% KIND OF PROFESSIONALISM AND
% CAPACITY OF THE OFFICES AND
% NUMBER OF VOTERS SERVED.
% MOST CLERKS WORK PART-TIME ON AN
% HOURLY BASIS, AND MOST OF THEM
% HAVE OTHER JOBS ON THE SIDE, AND
% SO IT IS A PART-TIME GIG OPPOSED
% TO CLERKS IN, SAY, GREEN BAY OR
% MADISON WITH STAFF WHO WORK YEAR
% ROUND AND REALLY FOCUS ON
% ELECTIONS.
% SO YOU GET A WIDE VARIETY OF
% OPINIONS OF WHAT ELECTION
% PROCESSES OUGHT TO BE ADOPTED
% DEPENDING ON THE SIZE OF THE
% COMMUNITY AND WHAT THE
% EXPERIENCE WAS.
% MOST CLERKS HAD SUCCESSFUL
% ELECTION AND HAPPY WITH HOW
% THINGS CAME OFF, AND INNOVATED
% IN REALLY INTERESTING WAYS TO
% MAKE THINGS WORK WHEN THERE WAS
% DIFFICULTY FINDING POLL WORKERS
% OR SHIFTING TO NEW LOCATIONS,
% AND ESPECIALLY IN BIGGER CITIES.
% THERE WAS INNOVATIONS LIKE THE
% USE OF DROP BOXES TO COLLECT
% BALLOTS.
% IN SOME PLACES USING OLD STORE
% FRONTS FROM CLOSED BUSINESSES AS
% POLLING LOCATIONS BECAUSE THEY
% ALLOWED FOR SOCIAL DISTANCING,
% BUT YOU SEE IN THE SURVEY THAT,
% YOU KNOW, THE GENERAL ATTITUDE
% TOWARDS VOTING AND
% ADMINISTRATION OF ELECTIONS IS
% PRETTY DIFFERENT IN SMALL TOWNS
% AND VILLAGES COMPARED TO BIGGER
% CITIES.
% FOR EXAMPLE, WHETHER WE OUGHT TO
% ALLOW SOMETHING LIKE DROP BOXES
% OR MANDATE MUNICIPALITIES USE
% DROP BOXES.
% BIGGER CITIES WERE ENTHUSIASTIC
% ABOUT THAT AND WANT TO ALLOW THE
% OPTION, IF NOT MANDATE THERE'S
% SOME NUMBER OF DROP BOXES, BUT
% IN THE SMALLEST COMMUNITIES, I
% THINK THEY HAVE DIFFICULTY
% IMAGINING SERVING DROP BOXES
% WHILE DOING THE OTHER THINGS
% THEY DO ELECTION-WISE BEFORE
% ELECTION DAY, AND SO THEY REALLY
% RESIST THE IDEA OF A MANDATE.
% EVEN KIND OF THE ROUTINE ASPECTS
% OF RUNNING ELECTIONS LIKE
% RECRUITING POLL WORKERS WAS
% EQUALLY DIFFICULT IN BIG CITIES
% AND SMALL TOWNS, BUT IN BIGGER
% COMMUNITIES MORE OF THOSE POLL
% WORKERS WERE NEW.
% IN LARGEST CITIES, ABOUT HALF OF
% THE POLL WORKERS WERE BRAND NEW,
% NEVER SERVED BEFORE, AND SO THEY
% NEEDED TO BE TRAINED.
% THEY NEEDED TO BE FOUND AND
% TRAINED AND RECRUITED AND
% MONITORED IN A WAY THAT ONGOING
% POLL WORKERS WOULDN'T BE, AND
% YET CLERKS SAID THE NEW POLL
% WORKERS DID JUST AS WELL, IF NOT
% BETTER, THAN THEIR VETERAN POLL
% WORKERS WHO RETURNED.
% THERE'S A SILVER LINING TO THAT,
% BUT IT PRESENTS SPECIAL
% CHALLENGES, I THINK, IN LARGER
% CITIES THAN IN SMALLER
% COMMUNITIES.
% >> AND SOME CLERKS REPORTED HIGH
% LEVELS OF BURNOUT WITH THE
% PANDEMIC AND THE POLITICAL
% ENVIRONMENT, AND IN SOME CASES,
% EXPERIENCING THREATS.
% BECAUSE OF THOSE EXPERIENCES,
% ARE WE GOING TO SEE ANY SORT OF
% MASS EXODUS OF MUNICIPAL CLERKS,
% ESPECIALLY WITH THAT GOOD
% EXPERIENCE OF KNOWING HOW TO
% ADMINISTER ELECTIONS, AND WHAT
% WOULD BE THE CONSEQUENCES OF
% THAT IF WE LOST THAT
% INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE?%>> Y
EAH.
% THERE HAVE BEEN NEWS STORIES
% FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY
% ABOUT ELECTION OFFICIALS GETTING
% OUT OF THE JOB, THAT 2020 WAS
% JUST SO DIFFICULT AND
% UNPLEASANTLY DECIDED TO HANG IT
% UP AND RETIRE.
% I WAS CONCERNED THAT WOULD
% HAPPEN IN WISCONSIN AS WELL.
% THE SURVEY DID ASK ABOUT SOME OF
% THE SPECIFIC EXPERIENCES THAT
% CLERKS HAD WITH HOSTILE OR
% THREATENING MESSAGES, AND ABOUT
% 20% OF CLERKS TOLD US THAT THOSE
% WERE MORE COMMON EXPERIENCES IN
% 2020 THAN BEFORE, AND THAT'S
% OBVIOUSLY A STRESS ON THE JOB.
% THE SURVEY ASKED SPECIFICALLY
% ABOUT BURNOUT, AND ABOUT WHETHER
% THEY FEEL USED UP IN THE END OF
% THE WORKDAY, AND THE VAST
% MAJORITY OF CLERKS SAID
% "ABSOLUTELY" AS IT IS A VERY
% DIFFICULT JOB, ESPECIALLY IN THE
% PANDEMIC.
% WE ALSO ASKED ABOUT OTHER
% STRESSES, MISINFORMATION, HAVING
% TO COMBAT INTENTIONAL OR
% UNINTENTIONAL MISUNDERSTANDINGS
% HOW THE ELECTION OPERATES,
% PUTTING NEW PRESSURE ON THEM TO
% KEEP THE FACTS IN FRONT OF
% VOTERS AND RUN A PROPER
% ELECTION, AND THEN, OF COURSE,
% THE GLUT OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS.
% BALLOTS ARRIVING BY THE MAIL
% THEY REALLY DIDN'T HAVE TO
% PROCESS IN THE PAST AND DON'T
% HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROCESS
% BEFORE ELECTION DAY UNDER
% WISCONSIN LAW, AND THAT WAS A
% REAL TROUBLE, I THINK, FOR A LOT
% OF CLERKS AS THOSE BALLOTS PILED
% UP BEFORE THE ELECTION, AND THEN
% HAVE TO PROCESS THEM ALL ON
% ELECTION DAY.
% THE SURVEY ASKED SPECIFICALLY
% WHETHER ALL EXPERIENCES TOGETHER
% MADE THE CLERK MORE LIKELY TO
% WANT TO END THEIR CAREER IN THAT
% POSITION OR IT DIDN'T MAKE A
% DIFFERENCE OR MAKE THEM LIKELY
% TO STAY, AND I WAS SURPRISED TO
% SEE THERE WAS A SORT OF EQUAL
% BALANCE.
% ABOUT 20% OF CLERKS SAID THE
% EXPERIENCE MADE THEM MORE LIKELY
% TO WANT TO LEAVE, AND SOME SAID
% THEY WOULD RETIRE EARLY AS A
% RESULT, BUT THERE WAS ANOTHER
% 20% THAT INDICATED THE
% EXPERIENCE MADE THEM REDEDICATE
% THEMSELVES TO THEIR POSITIONS,
% AND THEY REALLY WANTED TO STAY
% ON AND MORE LIKELY TO SERVE FOR
% ADDITIONAL ELECTIONS THAN THEY
% WOULD HAVE BEEN.
% THAT'S A WONDERFUL BRIGHT SIDE,
% I THINK, AGAIN, THE SILVER
% LINING TO ALL OF THIS THAT
% DOESN'T GET EMPHASIZED AS MUCH.
% LOOKING AT THE ACTUAL ROSTERS OF
% CLERKS FROM BEFORE THE ELECTION
% AND AFTER, THE TURNOVER DOES NOT
% SEEM TO BE EXCEPTIONAL AT THIS
% POINT.
% THERE'S ALWAYS A CHURN IN THESE
% POSITIONS, AS I SAID, THEY ARE
% PART-TIME, THEY ARE NOT CAREERS
% FOR MANY OF THESE PEOPLE, AND SO
% THEY DO SORT OF CYCLE IN AND
% CYCLE OUT, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE THE
% PATTERN IS REALLY NOT MUCH
% HIGHER IN TERMS OF THE TURNOVER
% THIS TIME AROUND THAN IT WOULD
% HAVE BEEN AFTER THE 2016
% ELECTION.
% >> AND YOU MENTIONED ABSENTEE
% BALLOTS.%HOW MUCH DID THAT PL
AY A ROLE IN
% THE 2020 ELECTION OVERALL WITH
% UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS OF VOTING
% BY MAIL.%DID THIS IMPACT VOTE
RS?
% DID THIS IMPACT CLERKS?
% YOU MENTIONED HOW DIFFERENT
% MUNICIPALITIES, DIFFERENT
% COUNTIES, CITIES, VILLAGES,
% VASTLY DIFFERENT SIZES DEALING
% WITH VASTLY DIFFERENT LEVELS OF
% POPULATION, DID THAT HAVE
% VARYING IMPACTS ON HOW ABSENTEE
% BALLOTS WERE PROCESSED AND
% EVENTUALLY COUNTED?
% >> IT DID.
% IT WAS PROBABLY THE FIRST
% ELECTION IN WISCONSIN HISTORY
% WHERE THE MAJORITY OF VOTES WERE
% CAST OUTSIDE OF ELECTION DAY.
% THE NORMAL PATTERN IN WISCONSIN,
% THE SYSTEM, IS REALLY SET UP TO
% SERVE VOTERS ON ELECTION DAY
% WITH A SMALL NUMBER OF VOTERS
% EXPECTED TO CAST BALLOTS BY MAIL
% OR MAYBE IN PERSON EARLY, WHICH
% WE CALL EARLY VOTING, BUT IT IS
% REALLY A FORM OF ABSENTEE VOTING
% IN WISCONSIN, BUT 2020 TURNED
% THAT ON ITS HEAD, AND IT WAS
% ONLY A MINORITY OF VOTERS WHO
% CAST VOTES IN PERSON SO I THINK
% ONE THING IT'S DONE IS SET UP
% FUTURE ELECTIONS IN WISCONSIN TO
% ALWAYS HAVE THESE THREE PIECES
% SIMULTANEOUSLY, VOTING IN PERSON
% ON ELECTION DAY, WHICH WE ALL
% RECOGNIZE AS TRADITIONAL WAY OF
% VOTING, VOTING BY MAIL, WHERE A
% VOTER REQUESTS BALLOT AND SENDS
% IN THROUGH THE POSTAL SERVICE,
% AND THEN THIS THIRD FORM, WHICH
% IS ABSENTEE VOTING IN PERSON OF
% SOME KIND BEFORE ELECTION DAY
% WHERE CLERKS REALLY DID A LOT OF
% INNOVATING.%I MENTIONED THE
USE OF DROP
% BOXES BEFORE.
% THOSE GOT ROLLED OUT IN LOTS OF
% COMMUNITIES, BUT ESPECIALLY IN
% BIGGER COMMUNITIES AND HEAVILY
% USED BY VOTERS.
% I THINK MANY VOTERS VIEWED THE
% DROP BOXES AS MORE SECURE THAN
% THE MAIL.%THERE WAS CONCERNS
ABOUT WHETHER
% THE POSTAL SERVICE WOULD
% IMMEDIATE DELIVERY STANDARDS IN%
2020, AND PEOPLE WERE WORRIED
% ABOUT THAT BALLOT GETTING BACK
% ON TIME, AND SO I THINK THERE
% WAS A KIND OF SECURITY IN USING
% THE DROP BOX FOR A LOT OF
% VOTERS, AND SO THAT WAS A
% MASSIVE INNOVATION, BUT THERE
% WAS OTHERS, CITIES LIKE MADISON
% USED DROP SLOTS AT LIBRARIES
% THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE USED FOR
% RETURNING BOOKS AS A WAY TO
% COLLECT BALLOTS.
% THERE WAS BALLOT COLLECTION
% ACTIVITIES IN PARKS AND OTHER
% PLACES WHERE ELECTION WORKERS
% WENT OUT TO RECEIVE BALLOTS,
% AGAIN, TAKING THE POSTAL SERVICE
% OUT OF THE FINAL STEP OF GETTING
% BALLOT BACK TO THE ELECTION
% OFFICE.%I THINK IT WAS A SEN
SE OF
% SECURITY FOR A LOT OF VOTERS.
% IT REALLY PUT PRESSURE ON
% ELECTION OFFICIALS AS I WAS
% SAYING TO SEE THOSE BALLOTS
% PILING UP BEFORE ELECTION DAY,
% THEY NEEDED TO BE STORED
% SOMEWHERE, THAT IS SECURE, AND
% THEN ALLOCATED TO THE RIGHT
% POLLING PLACE ON ELECTION DAY
% WHERE THEY ARE OPENED AND
% INSPECTED AND TABULATED, AND SO
% THAT WAS ADDITIONAL WORK FOR
% POLL WORKERS ON ELECTION DAY TO
% DO AN EXCESSIVE AMOUNT OF
% ABSENTEE BALLOT FABULOUS
% ALONGSIDE IN-PERSON VOTING.
% THERE WAS ANOTHER INNOVATION
% UNDERWAY BEFORE 2020 IN MOSTLY
% LARGER COMMUNITIES, AND THAT IS
% COUNTING ABSENTEE BALLOTS IN A
% CENTRAL LOCATION RATHER THAN AT
% THE POLLING PLACE.
% CITIES LIKE BROOKFIELD AND
% MILWAUKEE AND GREEN BAY HAD
% ALREADY BEEN DOING THIS AS JUST
% AN EFFICIENCY, HUGE NUMBER OF
% BALLOTS NEED TO BE PROCESSED,
% AND TAKE THEM TO THE ONE PLACE,
% HIGH SPEED SCANNER TO RUN THE
% BALLOTS.%MORE COMMUNITIES WER
E INTERESTED
% IN DOING THAT IN 2020 AND IN THE
% SURVEY SAYING THEY ARE THINKING
% SERIOUSLY ABOUT DOING THIS IN
% UPCOMING ELECTIONS.
% I THINK WE'LL GO FROM, YOU KNOW,
% A COUPLE DOZEN WHO HAD BEEN
% DOING IT BEFORE THE ELECTION TO
% PROBABLY MANY DOZENS, ESPECIALLY
% LARGER COMMUNITIES IN FUTURE
% ELECTIONS.
% >> AND NOW THAT EVERYTHING IS
% MORE VIRTUAL, SOME OF US
% REMEMBER SEEING VIDEO OF THESE
% MASSIVE ROOMS IN MILWAUKEE, FOR
% EXAMPLE, OF PEOPLE COUNTING
% BALLOTS, VERY, VERY INTERESTING
% TIME, AND SO SWITCHING GEARS A
% LITTLE BIT.
% NO VOTER FRAUD HAS BEEN FOUND,
% AND WE ARE STILL TALKING ABOUT
% THE 2020 ELECTION IN SEPTEMBER,
% LATE SEPTEMBER OF 2021, AND
% THERE ARE SEVERAL ONGOING
% INVESTIGATIONS IN OUR STATE
% ALONE, ASSEMBLY SPEAKER ROBIN
% BOSS SAYS HE WANTS TO SHOW THE
% PUBLIC THEY CAN TRUST HOW
% ELECTIONS ARE RUN IN WISCONSIN.
% ARE THESE INVESTIGATIONS ERODING
% OR GAINING PUBLIC TRUST?
% >> WELL, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD
% QUESTION, AND I'M GOING TO
% ANSWER IT IN A MOMENT.
% LET ME JUST SAY THE MESSAGE FROM
% MY SURVEY OF CLERKS AND VOTERS,
% THE TWO MAJOR STAKEHOLDERS IN
% THE ELECTION, WAS THAT IT WAS
% HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL, VERY
% CONFIDENT IN WHAT HAPPENED, HAD
% A GOOD EXPERIENCE, DESPITE ALL
% THE DIFFICULTIES, DESPITE THE
% PUBLIC HEALTH CONCERNS,
% FINANCIAL CONCERNS,
% MISINFORMATION, THE CHANGE IN
% THE WAY PEOPLE VOTED, THEY
% PULLED IT OFF.
% WE HAVE TO KEEP GOING BACK TO
% THAT THEME BECAUSE IT IS THE
% DOMINANT EXPERIENCE OF BOTH THE
% ELECTION OFFICIALS AND THE
% VOTERS.
% REALLY, NOWHERE IN MY SURVEYS
% DID I HEAR FROM CLERKS THEY
% THOUGHT THERE WAS SUBSTANTIAL%
FRAUD HAPPENING OR THEY THOUGHT
% THE LAWS WERE NOT BEING
% IMPLEMENTED PROPERLY.
% THERE WERE OPPORTUNITIES IN THE
% SURVEY FOR THEM TO SAY WHATEVER
% THEY WANTED, IN ADDITION TO THE
% CLOSED ENDED QUESTIONS I ASKED,
% THERE WAS A LOT OF OPPORTUNITIES
% FOR OPEN ENDED VERBATIM
% COMMENTS, AND IT WAS RARE FOR A
% CLERK TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE
% SECURITY OF THE ELECTION OR THE
% INTEGRITY OF THE ELECTION THAT
% BOTHERED THEM.
% NOW, IN TERMS OF WHETHER THESE
% INVESTIGATIONS AND AUDITS AND
% OTHER THINGS UNDERWAY BOOST
% CONFIDENCE, I THINK IT IS
% UNLIKELY.
% WE KNOW FROM SURVEYS OF VOTERS
% AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT MAJOR
% PREDICTER OF WHETHER THEY ARE
% CONFIDENT ABOUT AN ELECTION IS
% IF THEY HEAR FROM PEOPLE IN
% THEIR PARTY, IN PARTICULAR,
% PUBLIC OFFICIALS, CANDIDATES,
% OTHER LEADERS, THAT TELLING THEM
% THEY SHOULD HAVE CONFIDENCE IN
% THE ELECTION.
% YOU KNOW, THAT'S THE KIND OF
% CREDIBLE SOURCE THEY'D HEAR FROM
% IN POLITICS THAT'S MEANINGFUL TO
% THEM, AND MOST IN THE SURVEY HAD
% A GREAT EXPERIENCE WITH NO
% QUALMS ABOUT HOW THE ELECTION
% WAS CONDUCTED.
% IF YOU ARE HEARING FROM SOMEONE
% IN PUBLIC LIFE TELLING YOU THAT,
% EVEN THOUGH YOUR EXPERIENCE WAS
% FINE, ELSEWHERE, WE HAVE
% SUSPICIONS OR IRREGULARITIES.
% AS A VOTER, YOU DON'T HAVE A LOT
% OF AMMUNITION TO COMBAT THOSE
% KINDS OF CONCERNS.
% SO I THINK ONE OF THE BEST
% THINGS WE CAN DO IS SIMPLY
% REMIND VOTERS THAT THE ELECTION
% HAD BOTH THE NORMAL TESTING OF
% EQUIPMENT THAT HAPPENS BEFORE
% THE ELECTION AND AFTER WHERE IT
% IS PUBLICLY RUN AND EVERYONE CAN
% SEE THAT THE MACHINES ARE
% WORKING PROPERLY.
% THERE'S A SPOT AUDIT OF THE
% STATE THAT HAPPENS AFTER EVERY
% ELECTION WHERE RANDOM WARDS
% AROUND THE STATE ARE SELECTED
% AND BALLOTS REVIEWED, AND THERE
% WAS A FULL RECOUNT OF ALL
% BALLOTS IN TWO BIGGEST COUNTIES
% IN WISCONSIN, AND THEY VERIFIED
% THE RESULTS, BUT, REALLY, THE
% BASIC OUTCOME UNCHANGED AS A
% RESULT OF THE REVIEWS.
% I THINK BY CONTINUING TO RAISE
% QUESTIONS AND DEMAND
% INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER KINDS
% OF THINGS HAPPENING NINE MONTHS,
% TEN MONTHS AFTER THE ELECTION,
% THAT'S LIKELY TO LOWER
% CONFIDENCE OR CERTAINLY NOT TO
% BOOST IT.
% IT MAY HAVE SOME VALUE, BUT I
% THINK THE TIMING, THE KIND OF
% PARTISANSHIP THAT'S EMBEDDED IN
% IT ARE REALLY NOT HELPFUL FOR
% REMINDING VOTERS ABOUT THE GOOD
% THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN THE
% ELECTION.
% >> AND JUST DRILLING DOWN A
% LITTLE BIT FURTHER, THE
% INVESTIGATION IS LED BY
% WISCONSIN FORMER WISCONSIN
% SUPREME COURT JUSTICE, MIKE
% GABLEMAN, AND THIS WEEK HE
% RELEASED A SIX-MINUTE LONG VIDEO
% AND TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THEY
% ARE NOT CHALLENGING THE RESULTS,
% BUT, QUOTE, SOME ELECTION
% OFFICIALS ACTED UNILATERALLY IN
% DECIDING NOT TO FOLLOW
% ESTABLISHED STATE LAW.
% WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THAT?
% THIS IS AN INVESTIGATION THAT
% SEEMS TO BE DIFFERENT THAN
% LOOKING FOR FRAUD.
% IS THIS JUST CREATING MORE
% CONFUSION?
% CERTAINLY, WE HAVE NOT SEEN
% SOMETHING LIKE THIS BEFORE.
% >> WELL, I HAVE A COUPFUL
% WORR -- COUPLE WORRIES ABOUT
% THAT.
% ONE, THE INVESTIGATION SEEMS TO
% HAVE A MOVING TARGET IN MIND.
% THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT HIS
% TEAM IS INTERESTED IN HAVE
% SHIFTED OVER TIME.
% HE'S TRAVELED TO ARIZONA TO SEE
% THE RECOUNT AUDIT BUSINESS THAT
% WAS HAPPENING THERE IN MARICOPA
% COUNTY.
% HE'S TRAVELED TO A SEMINAR THAT
% MIKE LINDELL, THE MY PILLOW CEO,
% PUT ON IN SOUTH DAKOTA AND%CO
NDUCTED WITH OTHER FOLKS WHO
% ARE IN THAT INDUSTRY OF RAISING
% QUESTIONS ABOUT THE ELECTION.
% HIS MOST RECENT VIDEO, AS YOU
% MENTIONED, IS TALKING ABOUT
% CLERKS NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW,
% AND, TO ME, THAT SEEMS LIKE A
% DIFFERENT SET OF CONCERNS, AND
% IF THAT WERE HAPPENING, I THINK
% THE LEGISLATURE HAS THE RIGHT TO
% HOLD HEARINGS TO LOOK INTO THAT,
% AND THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE SOME
% OF THAT, AND THERE COULD BE
% COURT CASES FILED.
% SOMEONE COULD FILE SUIT CLAIMING
% CLERKS OR ELECTION OFFICIALS
% WERE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.
% THERE WAS SEVEN OR EIGHT SUITS
% FILED RIGHT AFTER THE
% PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN
% WISCONSIN IN STATE COURT AND
% FEDERAL COURT CLAIMING THAT LAWS
% WERE NOT BEING FOLLOWED, THAT
% THE COLLECTION OF BALLOTS IN
% CITY PARKS WAS NOT ALLOWED UNDER
% THE LAW, MAYBE DROP BOXES
% SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN PERCENTED,
% CLERKS ASSISTING WHEN THEY
% SHOULDN'T HAVE.
% ALL THE SUITS WERE TOSSED OUT
% NOT SEEN AS HAVING MERIT OR NOT
% AFFECTING THE ELECTION AS A
% RESULT.%THAT'S NOT TO SAY WE
DON'T NEED
% IMPROVEMENT.%IT IS AN IMPERFE
CT, HUMAN
% PROCESS, IT WAS A DIFFERENT
% ELECTION THAN EVER BEFORE, AND I
% THINK THE SYSTEM ADAPTED, BUT IT
% WAS NOT DESIGNED TO DEAL WITH
% THE CHALLENGES WE FACED IN 2020,
% AND SO SOME CHANGES TO THE
% ELECTION LAW ARE PROBABLY RIGHT,
% BUT I DON'T THINK THAT DOING IT
% THROUGH SOMEWHAT SECRETIVE
% INVESTIGATION THAT'S NOT DONE IN
% FULL PUBLIC VIEW AND WITH MOVING
% TARGETS IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC.
% >> DID CLERKS IN YOUR SURVEY
% HAVE A CONSENSUS OR IDEA WHAT
% CHANGES COULD BE PROPOSED IN
% ORDER TO MAKE ELECTIONS RUN
% BETTER OR WHAT THEY THINK WOULD
% BE FAIRER?
% >> YEAH.
% SO THERE IS A TENDENCY AMONG
% ELECTION OFFICIALS TO LIKE
% THINGS THE WAY THEY ARE.
% THIS IS CALLED A STATUS QUO
% BIAS.
% ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME OUT
% AGAIN AND AGAIN IN THE SURVEY IS
% CLERKS JUST WANTED THE RULES TO
% BE FIXED.
% THEY DON'T WANT CHANGES BEING
% MADE, ESPECIALLY DURING THE
% ELECTION SEASON.
% THEY WERE REALLY FRUSTRATED IN
% THE SPRING DURING THE
% PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARY WHEN THE
% LEGISLATURE OR THE GOVERNOR OR
% THE COURTS WERE INTERVENING AND
% CHANGING THE RULES ON THEM.
% THIS FORCES THEM TO RE-EDUCATE
% VOTERS, RETRAIN POLL WORKERS,
% CHANGE THE FORMS AND
% INFORMATIONAL MATERIALS THEY ARE
% USING, AND CHANGE ALL THE
% PROCESSES.%THEY WANT THOSE TH
INGS TO BE
% LOCKED DOWN ONCE WE GET IN
% ELECTION SEASON, WHICH IS
% COMPLETELY UNDERSTANDABLE.%IT
ALSO MEANS THEY MOSTLY LIKE
% THE PROCEDURES IN PLACE.
% SO, FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE
% QUESTIONS IN THE SURVEY ASKED
% CLERKS WHETHER THEY THINK THE
% DEADLINE FOR RETURNING ABSENTEE
% BALLOTS SHOULD REMAIN ON
% ELECTION DAY.
% RIGHT NOW, ABSENTEE BALLOTS HAVE
% TO BE BROUGHT BACK TO THE CLERK
% ONE FORM OR ANOTHER IN MAIL OR
% PERSON BY THE TIME POLLS CLOSE
% AT 8:00 P.M. ON ELECTION DAY.
% THAT PRACTICE WAS EXTENDED BY
% THE COURT BACK IN THE APRIL
% PRESIDENTIAL PRIMARIES SO
% BALLOTS CAME IN FOR ANOTHER SIX
% DAYS, AND FIVE YEARS AGO, THEY
% ALLOWED BALLOTS TO TRICKLE IN
% UNTIL FRIDAY AFTER ELECTION DAY
% AS LONG AS THEY WERE POSTMARKED
% BY ELECTION DAY.
% TO MY SURPRISE, CLERKS WERE
% NEARLY UNANIMOUS IN SAYING WE
% ABSOLUTELY THINK THE ELECTION
% DAY DEADLINE SHOULD HOLD.
% WE DON'T WANT TO EXTEND IT.
% IT DOESN'T MATTER WHETHER THE
% CLERK LEANS DEMOCRATIC OR
% REPUBLICAN, BIG CITY, SMALL
% TOWN, THAT WAS A PRETTY COMMON
% VIEW, AND LET'S KEEP THINGS AS
% THEY ARE, AND THAT WAS TRUE ALSO
% WITH THE DEADLINE FOR REQUESTING
% ABSENTEE BALLOTS AND VARIETY OF
% LAWS.
% CLERKS WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THOSE
% THINGS AS THEY ARE.
% WHERE YOU SEE DIFFERENCES AMONG
% CLERKS ARE IN THE SORTS OF
% THINGS THAT WOULD ALLOW OR
% PREVENT INNOVATION.
% ALLOW THEM TO DO THINGS AT THE
% LOCAL LEVEL TO SERVE THEIR
% VOTERS.
% SO THE USE OF DROP BOXES, I
% MENTIONED ALREADY, SOME CLERKS
% RESIST THE IDEA, BUT OTHERS WANT
% TO ALLOW IT OR MANDATE IT.
% ONE OF THE OTHER QUESTIONS IN
% THE SURVEY WAS ABOUT THE
% PROCESSING OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS
% BEFORE ELECTION DAY.
% I MENTIONED ALREADY WISCONSIN'S
% ONE OF THE A FEW STATES THAT
% DOESN'T ALLOW CLERKS TO START TO
% WORK THROUGH THE PAPERWORK IN
% ADVANCE LEADING TO LATE NIGHTS
% AND A LOT OF STRESS ON THE
% ELECTION NIGHT.%THERE WERE A
COUPLE PROPOSALS
% OFFERED IN THE SURVEY, ONE BEING
% SHOULD ELECTION WORKERS BE
% ALLOWED TO AT LEAST OPEN THE
% ABSENTEE BALLOTS BEFORE ELECTION
% DAY, INSPECT THEM, MAKE SURE
% EVERYTHING IS OKAY, THEY ARE NOT
% DAMAGED, FLATTEN THEM SO THEY
% CAN BE FED INTO THE TAB PEW
% LATERS ON ELECTION DAY, AND SOME
% CLERKS WERE OKAY WITH THE IDEA,
% AND THERE WAS ANOTHER PROPOSAL
% WHICH WOULD HAVE ALLOWED,
% ACTUALLY, THE BALLOTS TO BE
% INSERTED INTO THE FABULOUS
% MACHININGS BEFORE ELECTION DAY,
% OR EVEN IN PERSON TO PUT IT IN
% THE MACHINE, AND SEVERAL CLERKS
% SAID THEY THOUGHT THAT WOULD BE
% A REWARDING EXPERIENCE FOR THE
% VOTERS TO SEE IS GOING IN THE
% MACHINE AND GIVE THEM A SENSE OF
% CONFIDENCE THAT IT HAD BEEN
% RECEIVED PROPERLY.
% BOTH OF THOSE THINGS WERE
% SUPPORTED BY CLERKS FROM BIG
% CITIES, LARGER COMMUNITIES,
% LARGER VILLAGES, BUT ELSEWHERE,
% CLERKS WERE RESISTANT BECAUSE I
% THINK IT IS DIFFICULT TO IMAGINE
% HAVING CAPACITY TO ALLOW THOSE
% THINGS WITH SUCH LIMITED STAFFS,
% BECAUSE THEY WORK PART-TIME, AND
% SOME DON'T HAVE OFFICES OR
% OFFICIAL GOVERNMENT PHONES TO
% USE TO DO BUSINESS.
% THEY WORK, YOU KNOW, OUTS OF
% THEIR KITCHEN OR LIVING ROOM
% COFFEE TABLES OR SOMETHING ELSE,
% ALLOWING MULTIPLE DAYS OF EARLY
% VOTING OR DROP BOXES AND OTHER
% THINGS SEEMED SOMEWHAT
% UNIMAGINABLE.%ONE CONCLUSION
IN THE REPORT IS
% THAT STATE POLICYMAKERS NEED TO
% THINK ABOUT SIMULTANEOUSLY, ON
% THE ONE HAND, HAVING A UNIFORM
% SET OF LAWS FOR THE STATE.
% WE CERTAINLY NEED TO HAVE A
% COMMON DEADLINE FOR ALL ABSENTEE
% BALLOTS.%THAT MAKES A LOT OF
SENSE, BUT
% ALSO GIVING ROOM FOR CLERKS WHO
% HAVE THE RESOURCES OR INTEREST
% OR THE NEED OR THE DEMAND FROM
% THEIR VOTERS TO SERVE THEM IN
% DIFFERENT WAYS BY ALLOWING EARLY
% COUNT OF VOTES, ALLOWING DROP
% BOXES, OR OTHER KINDS OF THINGS,
% AND RIGHT NOW, I THINK
% POLICYMAKERS ARE NOT IN THAT
% MIND SET YET OF HOW TO BALANCE
% UNIFORMITY ON THINGS WE NEED
% WHILE ALLOWING INNOVATION FOR
% CLERKS WHO ARE INTERESTED AND
% ABLE TO DO IT.
% >> AND AS YOU MENTIONED, 1800
% MUNICIPALITIES AND RUNNING
% THINGS SLIGHTLY DIFFERENTLY,
% THAT DECENTRALIZATION, THE
% WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSION
% REPEATEDLY SAID THAT ALSO HELPS
% WISCONSIN'S ELECTION INTEGRITY.%
WHEN IT COMES TO EDUCATION, I
% THINK A LOT OF US LEARNED ABOUT
% THE ELECTION PROCESS LAST YEAR
% MORE THAN EVER BEFORE.
% IT CAN SOMETIMES BE SEEN AS A
% VERY DRY PROCESS, BUT NOW THAT
% THERE IS SUCH A LASER FOCUS ON
% TRUST, IS MORE EDUCATION AROUND
% HOW THIS PROCESS ACTUALLY WORKS
% NEEDED IN ORDER TO ENSURE
% GREATER CONFIDENCE IN THE
% SYSTEM?
% >> YES, I THINK SO.
% AND THAT'S A REAL LESSON THAT
% ELECTION OFFICIALS AROUND THE
% COUNTRY HAVE LEARNED DURING THE
% 2020 CYCLE THAT TRYING TO GETS
% IN FRONT OF MISINFORMATION OR
% DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS IS
% REALLY ESSENTIAL.
% NOT JUST GIVING THAT INFORMATION
% TO REPORTERS WHO THEN SHARE IT
% WITH THE PUBLIC, BUT TO
% COMMUNICATE WITH THE PUBLIC
% DIRECTLY IN WAYS THEY HAVE NOT
% IN THE PAST, WHETHER STREAMING
% LIVE ON FACEBOOK, GIVING TOURS
% OF ELECTION FACILITIES, SHOWING
% THE COUNTING OF BALLOTS,
% ISSUING, YOU KNOW, INFORMATIONAL
% GUIDANCE BEFORE THE ELECTION.
% NOW, WISCONSIN CLERKS DID A LOT
% OF THAT, AND SO DID THE
% ELECTIONS COMMISSION BEFORE THE
% ELECTION.%FOR EXAMPLE, ONE O
F THE BITS OF
% MISINFORMATION THAT PEOPLE WERE
% CONCERNED ABOUT WAS THE LATE
% COUNTING OF BALLOTS IN
% MILWAUKEE.%MILWAUKEE IS THE B
IGGEST CITY IN
% THE STATE THAT RECEIVES A LOT OF
% ABSENTEE BALLOTS.
% THEY ARE NOT PERMITTED TO DO
% ANYTHING WITH THE BALLOTS BEFORE
% ELECTION DAY SO THE COUNTING
% BEGINS ON ELECTION MORNING
% ALONGSIDE THE OTHER BALLOTS.
% MILWAUKEE HAS A HISTORY OF NOT
% FINISHING UNTIL LATE AT NIGHT.
% THAT WAS TRUE IN 2018, THE
% GOVERNOR'S RACE, BALLOTS COMING
% IN AROUND MIDNIGHT.
% WE KNEW THAT WAS THE CASE IN
% 2020, PROBABLY LATER AT NIGHT.
% THERE WAS AN ADVISORY PUT OUT BY
% THE COMMISSION IN ADVANCE TO BE
% PREPARED THAT BALLOTS COME IN AS
% A BATCH IN MILWAUKEE.
% IT MIGHT BE A SIX FIGURE NUMBER,
% A LOT OF BALLOTS, AND NOTHING
% SUSPICIOUS ABOUT IT, BUT IT IS
% JUST WHEN THE CITY FINISHES THE
% CENTRAL COUNT OF THE ABSENTEE
% BALLOTS.
% DESPITE THE WARNINGS AND
% EXPERIENCE OF THE STATE ACTUALLY
% SEEING THAT HAPPEN IN PRIOR
% ELECTIONS, A SURPRISING NUMBER
% OF RESPONDENTS IN THE SURVEY
% SAID THEY THOUGHT THERE WAS
% SOMETHING SUSPICIOUS ABOUT THAT.
% THAT'S, I THINK, A SIGN PUBLIC
% EDUCATION IS NOT FULLY WORKING.
% I DID ASK CLERKS IN THE SURVEY
% WHETHER THEY WERE INTERESTED IN
% DOING MORE PUBLIC EDUCATION AND
% PUT MORE STAFF, RESOURCES, AND
% TIME INTO DOING IT.
% I WAS SURPRISED MANY CLERKS SAID
% "NO," BUT CONTENT WITH THE
% AMOUNT OF PUBLIC EDUCATION NAY
% WERE DOING.
% SOME WERE INTERESTED IN DOING
% LESS, IN FACT, AND THAT, TOO,
% VARIED BY THE SIZE OF THE
% COMMUNITY IN BIGGER CITIES,
% CLERKS WANTED TO DO MORE PUBLIC
% EDUCATION, WISH THEY HAD MORE
% TIME AND MONEY TO GET OUT THERE
% AND EDUCATE VOTERS.
% I THINK SOME OF THAT IS THE
% NECESSITY IN BIGGER COMMUNITIES.
% THE POPULATION SIMPLY CHURNS
% MORE.
% THERE'S MORE NEW INCOMING
% PEOPLE, PEOPLE MOVING IN AND
% OUT, YOUNG PEOPLE COMING OF AGE
% WHO ARE VOTING FOR THE FIRST
% TIME SO GREATER NEED IN THOSE
% PLACES TO ORIENT VOTERS, EDUCATE
% THEM, HOW TO REGISTER, HERE'S
% THE BALLOT, HERE'S THE IDs
% NEEDED TO VOTE, BUT IN SMALLER
% COMMUNITIES WHERE THE POPULATION
% IS MUCH MORE STABLE, I THINK
% THERE'S JUST LESS INTEREST IN
% DOING THAT.
% AGAIN, I THINK IT IS VIEWED AS
% SOMETHING AS OF A MANDATE THEY
% JUST DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO
% MANAGE.%>> ARE YOU, IN YOUR
SENSE, IN
% YOUR EXPERTISE, CONCERNED AT ALL
% ABOUT EITHER THE POLICIES,
% PRACTICES, OR PROCESS OF
% ELECTIONS IN WISCONSIN BECOMING
% MORE AND MORE PARTISAN?
% >> I AM.
% I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT
% PEOPLE WHO WATCH ELECTIONS
% CLOSELY OR ARE IN THE FIELD ARE
% SEEING HAPPENING ALL OVER THE
% COUNTRY.
% THIS IS, YOU KNOW, THERE'S SORT
% OF A GOOD SIDE AND BAD SIDE TO
% ALL OF THIS.
% OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS, SINCE
% THE MELTDOWN THAT HAPPENED IN
% FLORIDA BACK IN 2000, ELECTIONS
% HAVE BECOME MUCH BETTER.
% WE HAVE BETTER VOTING MACHINES.
% WE HAVE MORE SECURITY SYSTEMS.
% WE HAVE BETTER WAYS FOR VOTERS
% TO TRACK BALLOTS.
% THERE'S MORE VOTER INFORMATION.
% THERE'S MORE UNIFORMITY WITH HOW
% VOTERS ARE TREATED FROM ONE
% PLACE TO ANOTHER.
% IT'S BEEN IMPROVEMENT IN
% STANDARDIZATION, SECURITY, AND
% OTHER ELEMENTS OF THE VOTING
% SYSTEM, BUT AT THE SAME TIME,
% THERE'S ALSO BEEN THIS
% HEIGHTENED PARTISANSHIP ABOUT,
% REALLY, EVERY ASPECT OF
% ELECTIONS.%IT USED TO BE AMER
ICANS WERE
% DIVIDED ABOUT THINGS LIKE MAYBE
% REDISTRICTING OR CAMPAIGN
% FINANCE OR OTHER ASPECTS OF
% ELECTIONS, BUT NOW IT IS THE
% SMALL STUFF.
% IT IS ABOUT SIGNATURES ON
% ABSENTEE BALLOTS OR DEADLINES
% FOR REQUESTS OR WHAT KINDS OF ID
% QUALIFY TO VOTE WHEN A PERSON
% THINKS THEY ARE CONFINED AS A
% RESULT OF THE PANDEMIC.
% THESE ARE THE MINUTIA THEY
% NORMALLY WOULD HAVED WORRIED
% ABOUT AND TINKERED WITH, BUT
% THEY ARE HOT BUTTON ISSUES
% MAKING IT DIFFICULT FOR
% POLICYMAKERS TO DELIBERATE ON%
THE ISSUES AND STUDY THEM IN A
% CAREFUL AND FRANK WAY WHEN THEY
% KNOW THERE'S MEMBERS OF THE
% PARTY, THE BASES OF BOTH
% PARTIES, WATCHING CLOSELY AND
% PUTTING PRESSURE ON THEM AND
% ALSO PARTY LEADERS, LIKE DONALD
% TRUMP OUT OF OFFICE, BUT STILL
% WATCHING WHAT'S HAPPENING IN
% WISCONSIN AND WOULD LIKE
% POLICYMAKERS IN HIS PARTY TO DO
% THINGS HE THINKS ARE THE RIGHT
% APPROACH.%I THINK THE HEIGHT
ENED
% PARTISANSHIP MAKES IT HARD FOR
% PEOPLE WHO ARE IN THE COMMUNITY,
% REAL STAKEHOLDERS, TO DO THE
% BORING, BUT SERIOUS WORK THAT
% MAKES ELECTIONS BETTER FROM ONE
% CYCLE TO THE NEXT.
% >> ALL RIGHT.
% BARRY BURDEN, UW-MADISON
% POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AND
% DIRECTOR OF ELECTIONS RESEARCH
% CENTER, THANK YOU, AS ALWAYS, SO
% MUCH FOR JOINING US.
% >> IT WAS GREAT BEING HERE.
% THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
% >> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
% AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG, AND THANK YOU%
SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON "NOON
% WEDNESDAY."