% >>> WELCOME TO "NOON WEDNESDAY,"
% I'M MARISA WOJCIK, MULTIMEDIA
% JOURNALIST WITH "HERE & NOW" ON
% PBS WISCONSIN.
% TODAY IS SEPTEMBER 8.
% A PROPOSAL TO BOTTLE AND SELL
% WATER FROM LAKE SUPERIOR IS
% TAKING ADVANTAGE OF A LEGAL
% LOOPHOLE AND TESTING THE METAL
% OF THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT.
% PROFESSOR DA DAVE STRIFELING,
% DIRECTOR OF WATER POLICY
% INITIATIVE AT THE MARCH YET LAW
% SCHOOL IS HERE TO EXPLAIN MORE,
% AND, PROFESSOR, THANK YOU SO
% MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
% >> PLEASURE, THANK YOU FOR
% HAVING ME.
% >> AND SO THIS PROPOSAL STARTS
% WITH A RESIDENT FROM DULUTH,
% MINNESOTA TRYING TO GET APPROVAL
% FROM BAYFIELD COUNTY IN
% WISCONSIN FOR THEIR COMPANY
% CALLED CRYSTAL CLEAR, TO BOTTLE
% LAKE SUPERIOR WATER FROM THE
% PROPERTY AND SELL IT.
% CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US WHY THIS
% GREAT LAKES WATER USE IS
% GENERALLY PROHIBITED, AND WHAT
% IS THE LEGAL LOOPHOLE USED TO
% GET AROUND THAT?
% >> SURE.
% SO IT STARTS WITH SOMETHING
% CALLED THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT,
% WHICH IS AN AGREEMENT BETWEEN
% THE EIGHT GREAT LAKES STATES
% THAT GENERALLY PROHIBITS
% DIVERSIONS OF WATER, GREAT LAKES
% WATER, THAT IS, OUTSIDE THE
% GREAT LAKES BASIN.
% THAT'S THE TOP LEVEL FEATURE
% THAT EVERYONE KNOWS ABOUT THE
% GREAT LAKES COMPACT.
% NOW, THE ISSUE IS THAT THERE ARE
% SEVERAL EXCEPTIONS TO THAT
% GENERAL PROHIBITION.
% SOME ARE FOR CITIES, MUNICIPAL
% WATER, AND OTHERS -- ANOTHER, I
% SHOULD SAY, IS FOR PRODUCTS.
% SO WHEN WE HEAR ABOUT CASES LIKE
% WAUKESHA OR FOXCON, THOSE ARE
% TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE
% MUNICIPAL DIVERSIONS EITHER TO
% COMMUNITIES THAT STRADDLE THE
% BASIN LINE OR TO COMMUNITIES
% OUTSIDE THE BASIN, BUT ARE
% WITHIN A STRADDLING COUNTY.
% SO THAT'S NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING
% ABOUT HERE, THOUGH.
% WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE
% IS A SEPARATE EXCEPTION.
% THE LOOPHOLE THAT YOU MENTIONED,
% AS SOME DESCRIBE IT, FOR BOTTLED
% WATER OR WATER IN PRODUCTS THAT
% ARE IN CONTAINERS SMALLER THAN
% 5.7-GALLONS.
% SO THERE HAVE BEEN EXAMPLES OF
% BOTTLED WATER OPERATIONS WITHIN
% THE GREAT LAKES BASIN WHERE THE
% PRODUCT, THE BOTTLED WATER
% CONTAINERS, ARE THEN SHIPPED
% OUTSIDE THE BASIN AND SOLD.
% THAT IS ALLOWED UNDER THE GREAT
% LAKES COMPACT.
% IT WAS KNOWN AT THE TIME THAT IT
% WAS PASSED THIS, QUOTE-OWN-QUOTE
% LOOPHOLE EXISTED, BUT IT WAS THE
% JUDGMENT, I THINK, OF THE
% DRAFTERS THAT THIS AMOUNT OF
% DIVERSION JUST WOULDN'T DRAIN
% THE GREAT LAKES, AND SO, YOU
% KNOW, THEY LEFT IT UP TO LOCAL
% COMMUNITIES TO DECIDE, YOU KNOW,
% WHETHER THEY WERE GOING TO ALLOW
% THESE TYPES OF LAND USES IN
% THEIR COMMUNITIES ISSUE AND
% THAT'S HOW WE GET TO THE DISPUTE
% THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT TODAY.
% >> AND SO THIS 5.7 GALLONS, IF
% IT IS BOTTLED, VERSUS JUST ALL
% PUT IN A TRUCK AND TRANSPORT OUT
% OF THE AREA, SHOULD IT MATTER IF
% THE WATER IS BOTTLED FIRST AND
% TRANSPORTED?
% DO WE KNOW WHY THE 5.7 GALLON
% MARK, AND DOES THIS SET OFF
% ALARMS TO THE GREAT LAKES%CO
MPACT STATES THAT MAYBE
% REGULATIONS NEED TO BE REVIEWED
% AND REVISED?%>> THE LOOPHOLE
DREW OPPOSITION
% EVEN AT THE TIME THE COMPACT WAS
% BEING NEGOTIATED, BUT MY
% UNDERSTANDING IS THAT SOME OF
% THE GREAT LAKES STATES FLATLY
% SAID THEY WOULD NOT SIGN TON TO
% THE COMPACT IF THIS PROVISION
% WAS NOT INCLUDED.
% BECAUSE THEY HAVE BUSINESSES
% THAT DEPEND ON IT, NOT JUST
% BOTTLED WATER, OF COURSE, BY
% VARIOUS FOOD AND BEVERAGE
% PRODUCTS THAT CONTAIN SMALL
% AMOUNTS OF GREAT LAKES WATER
% THAT THEN IS SHIPPED OUTSIDE THE
% BASIN AND SOLD.
% SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'D HAVE A
% GREAT LAKES COMPACT IF THIS
% PROVISION HAD NOT BEEN INCLUDED.
% IT IS HARD TO IMAGINE THAT WE
% GOT THE COMPACT AT ALL WHEN YOU
% LOOK AT IT FROM THE LENS OF
% TODAY'S POLITICAL CLIMATE, AND
% SO I THINK THAT'S WHY IT IS
% THERE.
% WHETHER IT IS SOMETHING THAT
% SHOULD BE LOOKED AT AND REVISED,
% YOU KNOW, THAT WOULD BE
% SOMETHING THAT WE'D HAVE TO TRY
% TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH WATER IS
% LEAVING THE BASIN AS A RESULT OF
% THIS PROVISION, AND I THINK,
% AGAIN, IN THE JUDGMENT OF THE
% COMPACT DRAFTERS, IT WAS NOT
% ENOUGH, OR IT WAS NOT PREDICTED
% TO BE ENOUGH, TO JUSTIFY, YOU
% KNOW, MAKING THIS A STICKING
% POINT AND SAYING, YOU KNOW, THIS
% IS SOMETHING THAT WE GOT TO HAVE
% IN THE COMPACT.
% >> THE BAYFIELD COUNTY PLANNING
% AND ZONING COMMITTEE DENIED THIS
% PROPOSAL IN APRIL.
% THE GREAT LAKES COMPACT IS A
% MULTISTATE AGREEMENT AND
% CANADIAN COUNTERPART CALLED THE
% SUSTAINABLE WATER RESOURCES
% AGREEMENT, THOSE BOTH DECIDE HOW
% TO REGULATE THE GREAT LAKES
% WATER USAGE SO WHO HAS THE
% ULTIMATE LEGAL AUTHORITY AND
% JURISDICTION TO DECIDE ON THIS
% CASE?%>> WELL, IT DEPENDS ON
THE TYPE
% OF PROPOSAL AT ISSUE.
% SO JUST QUICKLY WALKING THROUGH
% THE DIFFERENT CATEGORIES OF
% DIVERSIONS UNDER THE GREAT LAKES
% COMPACT, IF IT IS TO A COMMUNITY
% IN A STRADDLING COUNTY LIKE
% WAUKESHA, ALL THE GREAT LAKES%
STATE HAVE A VETO VOTE OVER THAT
% KIND OF APPLICATION.
% IF IT IS TO A COMMUNITY, A
% STRADDLING COMMUNITY STRADDLING
% THE BASIN LINE, ITSELF, IT IS
% SOLELY THE STATE THAT HAS THE
% DECISION MAKING AUTHORITY.
% THAT'S THE WISCONSIN DNR HERE IN
% WISCONSIN, BUT AN APPLICATION
% LIKE THIS, I THINK IS
% QUESTIONABLE WHETHER IT IS
% SUBJECT TO COMPACT DECISION
% MAKING AT ALL BECAUSE IT IS
% SUBJECT TO THAT EXCEPTION THAT
% WE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT, THAT
% 5.7 GALLON CONTAINER EXCEPTION.
% THERE'S SOME QUESTION HERE
% WHETHER THE COMPACT REALLY HAS
% ANYTHING TO SAY ABOUT THIS
% WHATSOEVER.
% SO THAT MEANS THAT THE DECISION
% WOULD LIE WITH THE DNR TO THE
% EXTENT THAT IT HAS THE AUTHORITY
% TO REGULATE THIS WELL, AND WITH
% BAYFIELD COUNTY TO THE EXTENT
% THAT A CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT
% WOULD BE REQUIRED FROM A ZONING
% STANDPOINT, A LAND USE
% STANDPOINT, TO HAVE THIS KIND OF
% OPERATION ON THE PROPERTY.%>>
NOW, WHAT I'VE HEARD MOST IS
% THAT THIS COULD SET A NEW
% PRECEDENT.
% DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?
% COULD THIS ALLOW OTHER COMPANIES
% TO COME IN AND FOLLOW SUIT TO
% LARGE QUANTITY?
% >> SO IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE
% COMPACT ALREADY SORT OF PERMITS
% THAT KIND OF ACTIVITY, AND SO IF
% YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE
% COMPACT, I'M NOT SURE THAT THIS
% IS ANYTHING NEW AS COMPARED TO
% WHAT'S BEEN DONE IN OTHER
% PLACES.
% WHAT REALLY MAKES THIS
% INTERESTING IS THE COLLISION
% BETWEEN THE COUNTY'S LAND USE
% AUTHORITY ON THE ONE HAND AND
% THE DNR'S AUTHORITY OVER WATER
% USE, GROUND WATER USE IN THE
% STATE ON THE OTHER, AND THAT'S
% HOW THE PARTIES ARE KIND OF
% FRAMING UP THIS CASE.
% CRYSTAL CLEAR SAYS THIS IS JUST
% A QUESTION FOR THE DNR AND THE
% COUNTY SHOULDN'T HAVE ANY ROLE
% AT ALL HERE.
% IF THE DNR SAYS THE WELL IS
% OKAY, THEY SHOULD BE GOOD TO GO.
% THE COUNTY ON THE OTHER HAND%
SAYS, NO, WE HAVE AUTHORITY OVER
% LAND USE REGULATION HERE, AND
% YOU NEED A CONDITIONAL USE
% PERMIT TO OPERATE.
% SO WHEN THIS -- SO WHEN OR IF
% THIS CASE ENDS UP IN COURT, I
% THINK THAT'S GOING TO BE THE
% PRIMARY ISSUE, AND YOU TALKED
% ABOUT PRECEDENT.
% NOW, IF IT TURNS OUT THAT THE
% APPLICANT DOESN'T NEED ANY
% CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FROM THE
% COUNTY, THEN CONCEIVABLY, ALL
% THE SURROUNDING NEIGHBORS COULD
% ALSO DECIDE TO DO THE SAME
% THING, AND THEY COULD OPERATE
% THEIR OWN BOTTLED WATER
% FACILITIES, AND THEN YOU MIGHT
% SEE AN IMPACT, IF YOU DON'T
% ALREADY, IN THE LOCAL GROUND
% WATER TABLE, DRAWDOWNS OF NEARBY
% SURFACE WATERS, THAT TYPE OF
% THING, EFFECTS ON THE WATER SHED
% IN WHICH THE BOTTLING IS TAKING
% PLACE.
% YOU KNOW, THE VOLUMES OF WATER
% WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE, AT
% LEAST FOR NOW, ARE NOT GOING TO
% DRAW DOWN LAKE SUPERIOR.
% THEY ARE SMALL AMOUNTS OF WATER.
% IF THAT INCREASES IN THE FUTURE
% OR OTHER NEIGHBORS DECIDED TO DO
% THE SAME THING, THEN YOU CAN
% START TO SEE EFFECTS, AT LEAST
% IN THE WATER SHED, IF NOT IN THE
% LAKE.
% >> AND TO THAT POINT, IF
% MULTIPLE COMPANIES COME IN AND
% BEGIN DIVERTING WATER FROM ANY
% OF THE GREAT LAKES WATER SHED,
% WHAT ARE THE POTENTIAL
% ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACTS FROM
% DRAWING DOWN LAKE LEVELS TO
% POLLUTION TO DISRUPTING LOCAL
% ECOSYSTEMS?%>> YEAH.
% SO THOSE ARE SOME OF THE THINGS
% THAT I THINK THE COUNTY BOARD OF
% ADJUSTMENT DEFINITELY WAS
% CONCERNED ABOUT, STAINABILITY
% BEING A WATCH WORD FOR A LOT OF
% COMMUNITIES TODAY.
% YEAH.
% AGAIN, THE GREAT LAKES, THE
% VOLUME OF THE GREAT LAKES IS
% MEASURED IN QUADRILLION OF
% GALLONS TO HARD TO SEE AN EFFECT
% IN THE INDIVIDUAL DIVERSION
% APPLICATIONS FOR BOTTLED WATER
% ANYWAY.
% CHICAGO HAS BY FAR THE LARGEST,
% UPWARDS OF 2 BILLION-GALLONS A
% DAY AS A RESULT OF THE REVERSAL
% OF THE CHICAGO RIVER SO THOSE
% ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT I
% THINK FOLKS ARE REALLY CONCERNED
% ABOUT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT
% IMPACTS TO THE LAKES,
% THEMSELVES, RATHER THAN BOTTLE
% WATER FACILITIES LIKE THIS, BUT,
% AGAIN, IF YOU SEE A
% PROLIFERATION OF THESE KINDS OF
% THINGS, THEN YOU COULD BE
% TALKING ABOUT LARGER EFFECTS,
% AND, AGAIN, I THINK THE COUNTY
% WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THIS IN
% TERMS OF THE IMPACT ON THE
% VALUES THAT IT EXPRESSED IN ITS
% COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FROM
% STAINABILITY TO OVERCROWDING
% WHEN IT COMES TO ACCESS TO THE
% WATERS, WATER POLLUTION.
% YOU COULD ENVISION, I THINK IN
% SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, IF YOU HAD
% LARGER SCALE INDUSTRIAL%OPER
ATIONS GOING ON, AND SO,
% AGAIN, I THINK THAT AT THIS
% POINT ANYWAY, THE CONCERNS ARE
% MORE AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, THE
% LOCAL SCALE FOR THE LAND USE AND
% WATER SHED RATHER THAN THE
% IMPACTS ON THE GREAT LAKES AS A
% WHOLE.
% THAT'S NOT TO SAY THAT'S ALWAYS
% THE CASE, BUT AT LEAST AT THIS
% POINT, THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF
% CONCERNS THAT THE COUNTY BOARD
% IS EXPRESSING.
% >> NOW, TO THAT END, SOME LOCAL
% OPPONENTS TO THE PROPOSAL
% INCLUDE THE RED CLIFF BAN OF
% LAKE SUE PEORIA CHIPEWA WORKING
% TO PROTECT WATER RESOURCES AND
% VIEW THIS LAKE AS A SACRED PART
% OF THEIR CULTURE.
% IS THE PRIVATIZATION AND
% COMMODITY OF THIS NATURAL
% RESOURCE FAIR TO PARTICULARLY
% INDIGENOUS POPULATIONS THAT ARE
% NEAR THESE WATERS?
% WELL, I THINK THE RISE OF TRIBAL
% INPUT OF NATURAL RESOURCES IS
% CERTAINLY A TREND WE HAVE SEEN
% LATELY.
% THESE VOICES WERE EXCLUDED FOR
% LONG PERIODS OF OUR HISTORY WHEN
% IT CAME TO DECISION MAKING ABOUT
% OUR RESOURCES, AND SO I THINK IT
% IS GREAT THAT THE TRIBES MADE
% THEIR VOICE HEARD, THEIR VOICES
% HEARD ABOUT THIS APPLICATION,
% AND AS I SAID, MORE BROADLY,
% THIS IS A TREND THAT THEY DO AND
% SHOULD HAVE INPUT OVER THE
% MANAGEMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES.
% THAT GOES FOR CLEAN WATER, CLEAN
% AIR, MINING PROJECTS, ALL SORTS
% OF DIFFERENT THINGS, IT IS NOT
% JUST WHEN IT COMES TO THIS
% APPLICATION, BUT IT IS PART OF A
% SUBJECT MATTER, I THINK, IT IS
% FAIR TO SAY, THAT THE BOARD
% CONSIDER IT IN MAKING ITS
% JURISDICTION AS WELL AS ALL THE
% OTHER LOCAL OPPOSITION TO THE
% PROPOSAL.%YOU KNOW, THE -- T
HAT'S PART OF
% WHAT DRIVES, I THINK, DECISION
% MAKING AT THE LOW CALL LEVEL,
% AND SO BROAD PUBLIC INPUT IS
% ALWAYS IMPORTANT FROM ALL SORTS
% OF VOICES AND COMMUNITIES AND
% NEARBY TRIBAL COMMUNITIES ARE
% REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF LIFE IN
% NORTHERN WISCONSIN, AND
% ABSOLUTELY THEIR VOICES SHOULD%
BE HEARD WHEN IT COMES TO THIS
% APPLICATION.%>> COULD THIS PR
OPOSAL OR
% SUBSEQUENT SIMILAR PROPOSALS
% VIOLATE ANY PART OF THE CLEAN%
WATER ACT?
% >> SO THE CLEAN WATER ACT IS A
% LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT.
% IT HAS TO DO WITH THE ADDITION
% OF POLLUTANTS TO WATERS OF THE
% UNITED STATES, SO THE PROPOSAL
% TO WITHDRAW GROUND WATER
% WOULDN'T BE IMPACTED BY THE
% CLEAN WATER ACT.
% WHERE THAT WOULD COME INTO PLAY,
% AGAIN, IS IF YOU HAD A BROADER
% SCALE INDUSTRIAL OPERATION THAT
% WAS DISCHARGING SOME CONTAMINANT
% INTO SURFACE WATERS, THEN YOU
% MIGHT HAVE AN ISSUE WHERE YOU
% REQUIRE A CLEAN WATER ACT
% PERMIT.
% I DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT TO BE AT
% ISSUE IN THIS CASE AT LEAST
% NOTTIEST.%>> AS WE HAVE ALRE
ADY TALKED
% ABOUT, THIS IS FAR FROM THE
% FIRST TIME THE GREAT LAKES WATER
% USAGE IS IN DEMAND FOR MULTIPLE
% PURPOSES INCLUDING COMMERCIAL,
% AND THIS FRESH WATER RESOURCE
% WILL LIKELY CONTINUE TO BE
% FOUGHT OVER.
% WHAT DO YOU FORESEE AS THE BEST
% AND FAIREST PATH FORWARD TO
% REGULATE THE GREAT LAKES' WATERS
% FAIRLY?%>> WELL, I THINK, OB
VIOUSLY, THE
% GREAT LAKES ARE A TREASURE, AND
% WE GOT TO USE THEM SUSTAINABLY
% AND WISELY IN A WAY THAT BEST
% BENEFITS SOCIETY AS A WHOLE, AND
% I SAID THE LAKES ARE A TREASURE,
% AND I THINK THE GREAT LAKES
% COMPACT IS ALSO A TREASURE, AND
% IT IS GOING TO BE TESTED IN THE
% YEARS TO COME AS BROADER
% SEGMENTS OF THE COUNTRY AND,
% INDEED, EVEN OF THESE STATES
% BECOMES THIRSTIER AND EXPERIENCE
% MORE AND MORE OF THE EFFECTS OF
% CLIMATE CHANGE, AND SO WHAT'S
% GOING TO HAPPEN, FOR EXAMPLE,
% WHEN REGIONS OF WISCONSIN EVEN
% THAT ARE OUTSIDE OF THE GREAT
% LAKES BASIN, WHICH IS A
% SIGNIFICANT PART OF THE STATE
% THAT LIES OUTSIDE THE GREAT
% LAKES BASIN STARTS MAKING
% DEMANDS FOR A GREAT LAKES WATER?
% WHAT WILL A FUTURE GOVERNOR DO?
% IT IS HARD TO ANTICIPATE THAT AT
% THIS POINT, BUT I THINK IT IS
% SOMETHING THAT'S COMING.
% THE OTHER THING THAT I THINK
% WILL MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO
% MANAGE OR MAYBE MORE INTERESTING
% TO PUT IT IN ANOTHER WAY, IS I
% EXPECT LARGE WAVES OF INCOMING
% CLIMATE MIGRATION, INCOMING
% MIGRATION TO THE GREAT LAKES%
REGION AS A RESULT OF CLIMATE
% CHANGE IN RECOGNITION OF THE
% LARGE FRESH WATER SUPPLY THAT WE
% HAVE AND COMPARATIVELY COOLER
% TEMPERATURES THAT ARE HERE, AND
% SO WHAT DO WE DO IN THAT CASE
% WHEN WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, LOTS AND
% LOTS OF NEW RESIDENTS AND
% COMPANIES WHO WANT TO USE THE
% WATER?
% THOSE ARE GOING TO BE DIFFICULT
% DECISIONS FOR FUTURE
% POLICYMAKERS, GOVERNORS,
% ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICIALS TO
% WRESTLE WITH.
% IT IS SOMETHING WE ABSOLUTELY
% NEED TO WATCH AS WE MOVE INTO
% THE FUTURE.
% >> ALL RIGHT.
% WE LEAVE IT THERE, PROFESSOR
% DAVE STRIFLING OF MARQUETTE LAW
% SCHOOL AND DIRECTOR OF WATER
% POLICY INITIATIVE, THANK YOU
% VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US TODAY.
% >> THANK YOU, HAPPY TO BE HERE.
% IT'S BEEN MY PLEASURE.
% >> FOR MORE FROM "HERE & NOW"
% AND PBS WISCONSIN, YOU CAN VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG AND CLICK ON
% "NEWS," AND THANK YOU SO MUCH
% FOR JOINING US ON "NOON
% WEDNESDAY."