%
>>>
WELCOME
TO
"NOON
WEDNESDAY,"% AND TODAY
IS
JULY
28.
%
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN
WAY
JUDGE
% OFFERS
A
DEFENDANT
% ALTERNATIVINGS
ALTERNATIVES
% TO
JAIL
TIME
AND
THE
JUDGE
COULD
% KEEP
THE
CASE
OPEN
INDEFINITELY?
% THIS
IS
WHAT
INVESTIGATIVE
% REPORTER, PHOEBE
PETROVIC, SET
% OUT
TO
ANSWER AS WELL AS
A
TEAM
% OF
WISCONSIN
WATCH
REPORTERS% AFTER HEARING
A NUMBER
OF
THESE
% CASES
HAPPENING
OUT
OF
ONE
%
OUTAGAMIE JUDGE OUT OF
A
SERIES
% CALLED
"DEFERRED
JUSTICE,"
AND
% SHE'S HERE
TO
EXPLAIN
MORE.
% THANK YOU SO
MUCH
FOR
JOINING
% US.%>>
THANKS
FOR
HAVING
ME
.
% >> I
WANT
TO
JUST
START
WITH
HOW
% DID
YOU
COME
UPON
THIS
STORY,
% AND WHY
DID
IT STAND OUT TO
YOU
% AS
IMPORTANT TO
REPORT ON?
% >>
YEAH.
% SO I
WAS
POKING
AROUND
IN
% OUTAGAMIE
COUNTY
SEVERAL
MONTHS
% AGO
TALKING
TO
DEFENSE
ATTORNEYS
% UP THERE
ASKING WHAT IT
WAS
LIKE
% TO REPRESENT
CLIENTS IN
FRONT
OF
% VARIOUS
JUDGES,
BECAUSE
EVERY
% JUDGE HAS
A
PARTICULAR
STYLE,
% AND
I
KEPT
HEARING
THE
SAME
% THING OVER
AND
OVER
AGAIN, WHICH
% WAS
THAT
JUDGE VINCENT BISKUPIC
% LIKED TO
BRING
PEOPLE
BACK
TO
% REVIEW
HEARINGS
O
R
BACK
FOR
% REVIEW
HEARINGS
OVER
AND
OVER
% AGAIN
AFTER
THE
CASE SHOULD HAVE
% ENDED,
AND
A
BUNCH
OF
THEM
SAID,
% YEAH, I DON'T KNOW I
F
IT'S
LEGAL
% OR
NOT.
% IT'S
A
LITTLE
FUZZY,
BUT I
% DIDN'T
DO
THE
RESEARCH ON IT.
% FIRST THOUGHT
WAS,
WELL,
I
CAN
% DO
THAT RESEARCH AND
SEE,
YOU
% KNOW,
IF
THERE'S
ANY
ISSUES
OF
% LEGALITY OR
FAIRNESS
HERE, AND
% ONE OF THE
THINGS
THAT
REALLY
% STOOD
OUT
IS
JUDGES
DO, IN
FACT,
% HAVE SOME OF
THE
WIDEST
LATITUDE
% IN
WISCONSIN,
AMONG
STATE
AND
% COUNTY
JUDGES IN
THE
U.S.,
BUT% THAT'S
MAINLY
IN
TERMS
OF,
LIKE,
% NOT
BEING
BOUND
BY
SENTENCING
% GUIDELINES FOR
PARTICULAR
% CRIMES, NOT
NECESSARILY
CREATING
% THEIR OWN
SORT
OF
PATHWAY
TO
THE
% CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM
WHERE% SOMEONE CAN GO TO
JAIL,
GET
OUT
% OF
JAIL,
GO
BACK
TO
JAIL
AGAIN,
% OUT
AGAIN FOR
THE
SAME
CRIME.
% >>
SUPER
INTERESTING.
% SO
LET'S
BREAK
DOWN
WHAT'S
% HAPPENING A LITTLE
BIT
HERE.
% FIRST, A
PERSON IS
CONVICTED,
% AND
THEN
THEY
ARE
SENTENCED,% THEN THEY
GO
BEFORE
THE
JUDGE,
% THIS
JUDGE, VINCENT
BISKUPIC, HE
% STAYS
THEIR
SENTENCE
SO
KIND
OF
% PUTS
I
T
ON
HOLD,
AND
INSTEAD
OF
% THEM
GOING
TO
JAIL,
THEY
AGREE
% TO
OTHER
TERMS
AND
CONDITIONS
% DETERMINED
BY
THIS
JUDGE,
AND
% THEN THEY
HAVE
TO
KIND
OF
% CONTINUALLY
APPEAR
BEFORE
THE
% COURT
FOR
THESE
REVIEW
H
EARINGS.
% IS
THAT
ABOUT
RIGHT?
% >>
YEAH,
THAT'S
DEFINITELY
THE
% BASIC
FRAMEWORK,
SO
WE
FOUND
% THAT
WE
WERE
ULTIMATELY
LOOKING
% AT 50
CASES
AFTER
GETTING THIS
% DOWN FROM
THOUSANDS OF
CASES.
% HALF
OF
THESE
FOLLOWED
THE
% FRAMEWORK
YOU
DESCRIBED.
% SOMEONE IS
CONVICTED
OF
A
CRIME,
% OR
THEY
PLEAD
GUILTY,
SHOW
UP
TO
% GET
SENTENCED
IN
FRONT OF THE
% JUDGE, AND
IN
ALL
BUT
ONE, I
% WANT TO
SAY, OF THE
CASES
WE
% LOOKED AT
IN
THIS
CATEGORY,% PEOPLE
INITIALLY WERE
PLACED
ON
% PROBATION WITH THE
STATE
% DEPARTMENT OF
CORRECTIONS,
AND
% THEN THAT
WAS
REVOKED
FOR
% WHATEVER
REASON, AND
SO
THEY
% VIOLATED A
RULE,
THEY
GOT
% ANOTHER -- THEY
COMMITTED% ANOTHER
CRIME, SOMETHING LIKE
% THAT, AND
THEY
GO
BEFORE THE
% JUDGE, LIKE
IN
ANY
SCENARIO, TO
% BE
SENTENCED
FOR
THEIR
ORIGINAL
% CRIME THAT PUT
THEM
ON
PROBATION% IN THE
FIRST
PLACE, AND
THIS
IS
% WHERE IT
SORT
OF
DIVERGED FROM
% THE
NORMAL PROCESS.
% SO
JUDGE VINCENT
BISKUPIC
OFTEN
% SAID, YOU
KNOW, I'M
GOING
TO
% GIVE
YOU,
LET'S SAY
A
YEAR
IN
% JAIL, BUT
IF
YOU
COME
BACK TO
ME
% IN
A
FEW
MONTHS OR
A
FEW
WEEKS
% AND YOU
TELL
ME
YOU
HAVE
BEEN
% DOING WELL
ON
WORK
RELEASE,
% WORKING AS
MUCH AS
YOU
CAN,
BEEN
% ATTENDING
COUNSELING, YOU
GOT
% YOUR
ACT
TOGETHER
IN
WHATEVER
% WAY,
I
MIGHT CONSIDER
STAYING
% THAT
SENTENCE,
AND
SO
OFTEN,
% THERE'S
A
REVIEW
HEARING SEVERAL
% MONTHS OR
WEEKS
DOWN
THE
ROAD,
% THEY
APPEAR,
AND
THE
JUDGE
% ISSUES
A
STAY
OR
A
FURLOUGH,
% WHICH
PAUSES
EXPWRAIL
PAUSES
JAIL
TIME,
LETS
% SOMEONE OUT,
AND
THEY
ARE
FREE
% TO LIVE
AT
THEIR
HOMES,
NOT
ON
% GPS
MONITORS OR
WORK
RELEASE,
% AND,
RIGHT, THEY
HAVE
TO
FOLLOW
% THE
RULES
HE
SAID, AND
IN
ONE OF
% THE
CASES W
E
LOOKED
AT, THAT
WAS
% GOING TO
COUNSELING,
MAINTAINING
% FULL
SOBRIETY,
WORKING
% FULL-TIME,
GETTING A
GED,
AND
% FOLLOWING
LANDLORD'S
RULES
WAS
% BROUGHT UP IN
THE
REVIEW
% HEARINGS.
% AT ANY
POINT,
IF
THEY
MISSED
A
% REVIEW
HEARING,
THEY COULD
BE
% SUBJECT TO
ARREST.
% >>
AND
SO
AS
YOU
MENTIONED,
YOU
% REVIEWED QUITE A FEW
OF
THESE
% CASES,
BUT SO
FAR,
YOU
PUBLISHED% TWO
STORIES
THAT
SPECIFICALLY
% PROFILED
TWO
INDIVIDUALS
WHO
% WISHED
THEY
HAD
NEVER
AGREED
TO
% THIS
JUDGE'S
TERMS.
% WHAT
HAPPENED IN
THEIR
CASES?
% >>
RIGHT.
% SO
THE
FIRST
ONE
PROFILED
WAS
A
% MAN
NAMED CHRISTOPHER% KARTSOUNES.%
HE WAS
ON
PROBATION.
% HIS
PROBATION
GOT
REVOKED, AND
% AS
I
DESCRIBED
EARLIER, YOU
% KNOW, HE
SHOWED
UP
BEFORE
THE
% JUDGE FOR
SENTENCING,
AND HE WAS
% INITIALLY GIVEN 12
MONTHS
IN
% JAIL,
A
FEW -- EXCUSE
ME,
A
FEW
% MOVANTS
LATER, HE
WAS
BROUGHT
% BACK TO
COURT
AND
RECEIVED
% FURLOUGH
SO
HE
COULD
ATTEND
% TREATMENT
.
% A
LOT
OF
HIS
CRIMINAL RECORD
% STEMMED FROM
STRUGGLES
WITH
% ADDICTION, AND, YOU
KNOW,
% DISORDERLY
CONDUCT OR
FELONY
% BAIL
JUMPING,
THINGS
THAT
WERE
% DEFINITELY THE ROOT OF
THAT
WAS
% AN
ADDICTION HE WAS
DEALING
% WITH,
AND
SO
HE
WENT
TO
% TREATMENT,
HE
COMPLETED
THE
% TREATMENT PROGRAM, AND
HE
STAYED
% FOR
A
FEW
MONTHS
AT
THAT
% TREATMENT
FACILITY,
EVEN
AFTER
% HE
ALREADY
COMPLETED
IT
FOR
% AFTER
CARE,
AND
OVER
THAT
TIME,
% HE
HAD
T
O
KEEP
CHECKING
IN
WITH
% THE
JUDGE
SOMEWHERE AROUND
SIX
% REVIEW
HEARINGS,
WHERE
THE
JUDGE
% PROBED
HIM
ABOUT
HIS
HEALTH,
% LIVING
ARRANGEMENTS,
AND,
% EVENTUALLY, CHRISTOPHER%KART
SOUNES GOT
ANGRY WITH
THE
% JUDGE
AND
THIS
ORDEAL,
AND
HE
% ACCUSED THE
JUDGE
OF
HARASSING
% HIM,
FIRED
PROFANITIES, AND HE
% WAS
SENT
BACK
TO
JAIL
TO
SERVE
% THE
REMAINDER OF THE
SENTENCE% AND
ULTIMATELY
WROTE
A
LETTER TO
%
THE
JUDGE
FROM
JAIL
SAYING,
% QUOTE, IF I
HAD
KNOWN
YOU
WANTED
% ME TO BE
ON
INDEFINITE
TERM
OF
% COURT
ORDERED
SUPERVISION RATHER% THAN THE
AGREEMENT
TO
DISMISS
MY
% SENTENCE
ONCE
I
GRADUATED
FROM
% TREATMENT
SUCCESSFULLY,
I
WOULD
% NOT
HAVE
AGREED.
% THE SECOND
PERSON WE
LOOKED
AT
% WAS
A
MAN
NAMED BEAU
JAMMES.
% SAME
STORY.
% ON
PROBATION,
REVOKED,
SENTENCED
% TO A
YEAR
IN
JAIL,
AND
A
FEW
% MONTHS
LATER,
HIS
ATTORNEY
FILES
% AN
ORDER
FOR
SENTENCE
% MODIFICATION FOR
JUST TIME
% SERVED,
SAYING,
YOU
KNOW
WHAT,% HE
WAS
REVOKED
ON AN
ALLEGED% CRIME THAT
ULTIMATELY
HAD
NO
% SUBSTANCE.
% THE
DA'S
OFFICE
DROPPED
THE
% CHARGES.
% HE
SHOULD
GET
OUT.
% INSTEAD, THE
JUDGE
SAID,
YOU'RE
% NOT
WHERE I
WANT
YOU TO
BE
ON
% STABILITY,
AND
SO
I'M
GOING
TO
% LET
YOU
OUT
WHILE
HOLDING
THE
% JAIL
SENTENCE
OVER
YOUR
HEAD,
% AND
YOU
HAVE
TO
COMPLY WITH
THE
% FIVE
RULES I
SET
FOR
YOU, AND
% YOU
HAVE
TO
KEEP
COMING
IN
AND
% CHECKING IN
WITH
ME.
% JAMMES WAS
IN
LEGAL
PURGATORY
% FOR
19
MONTHS
UNTIL
HE
SAID
HE
% GAVE
UP
FOLLOWING THE
RULES.
% HE WAS SENT
BACK TO
JAIL,
AND
% THEN HE
ULTIMATELY
TRIED
TO
% APPEAL HIS
CASE
AND
SUE
IN% FEDERAL
COURT, WHICH
WAS
% UNSUCCESSFUL,
BECAUSE HE
FELT
% THAT HE WAS
PLACED
ON
AN
ILLEGAL% DE
FACTO
PROBATION.% >>
WOW.
% LOTS
THERE.
% VERY
COMPLICATED
LAYERS.
% SO THERE ARE
A
FEW
DIFFERENT
% TERMS
THAT
THIS
JUDGE
USES
FOR
A
% PRACTICE LIKE
THIS.
% SO
PROBATION TO
THE
COURT, OR
AS
% YOU
JUST
SAID,
FROM BEAU
JAMMES,% DE
FACTO
PROBATION.
% THE JUDGE
CALLS
IT
"FURLOUGHS,"
% AND SO
HOW
IS
THIS
DIFFERENT
% FROM
WHAT
WE
THINK
OF
AS
REGULAR
% PROBATION?
% >>
SO
PROBATION IS
ONE OF
THE
% MOST
COMMON
WAYS
THAT
A
% SENTENCE, A
CRIMINAL
SENTENCE
OR% CRIMINAL
CASE
IS
HANDLED
IN
% WISCONSIN,
AND WHAT
HAPPENS
% THERE
IS
THAT,
YOU
KNOW,
A
JUDGE
% PLACES SOMEONE
ON
PROBATION WITH
% THE
DEPARTMENT OF
CORRECTIONS,
% AND
THEY
ARE
FREE
TO
LIVE
IN
% THEIR
COMMUNITY, BUT THEY
HAVE
% TO ABIDE BY
RULES SET
BY
THE
% DOC,
BUY
THEIR
INDIVIDUAL
% PROBATION
AGENT,
AND
BY
THE
% JUDGE, AND
IF
ALL
GOES
WELL,
YOU
% KNOW,
THIS
PERSON
COMPLIES
WITH
% THOSE
RULES, THEY
CHECK
IN
WITH
% THE
PROBATION
AGENT
REGULARLY,
% AND
THEN
THEY
CAN
SERVE
THAT
% TIME
WITHOUT EVER
HAVING
TO
STEP
% FOOT
IN
JAIL
OR
PRISON.
% THERE ARE
LOTS
OF
RULES
AND
LAWS
% THAT LAY
OUT
HOW
PROBATION
IS
% SUPPOSED
TO
GO.
% IT
LIMITS HOW
LONG
IT SHOULD
BE
% UNLESS
YOU
GET
EXTENDED
FOR
VERY
% PARTICULAR REASONS.
% THERE'S
A
VERY MULTI--
INVOLVED
% MULTILEVEL
STEP
PROJECT FOR
% GETTING
REVOKED
AND
GOING
TO
% JAIL.
% THIS
IS
THE
FRAMEWORK
IN
THE
WAY
% THIS
HAPPENS.
% JUDGE VINCENT
BISKUPIC'S
% SUPERVIOLATION ON
IMPOSED
STAY
% OR
IMPOSED
FURLOUGH
SENTENCES
% LACKED
CHECKS AND
BALANCES.
% THERE'S NO
STATE
LAWS
OUTLINING
% HOW
THIS CAN HAPPEN.
% THERE
ARE
SOME COURT
CASES
THAT
% INDICATE
IT
SHOULDN'T
HAPPEN,
% BUT THEY
ARE
NOT
BINDING,
AND
SO
% THERE
IS
REALLY
NO
SORT
OF
% OUTSIDE LEGAL
FRAMEWORK
OR
% GUARDRAILS TO
GO
BY
S
O
THE
% JUDGE,
ALONE,
SETS HOW LONG
% SOMEONE IS
GOING TO
BE
O
N
THIS
% STAY OR
FURLOUGH, AND
FOR
WHAT
% REASON
THEY
GET
SENT
BACK
TO
% JAIL.
% THERE'S
NO
MULTILEVEL
PROCESS
% WITH
APPEALS
BAKED INTO
IT.
% IF
HE
SAYS,
YOU
KNOW, WE
TRIED
% THIS, IT
DIDN'T
WORK,
AND
THE
% BIGGEST OTHER THING
IS
THAT
% THERE'S
NO
SUPERVISION
BY
A
% STATE AGENCY LIK
E THE
DOC
.
% >>
SO
AS
YOU
MENTIONED, YOU
SAID
% THE WORD
"INDEFINITE," SO
THIS
% COULD
POTENTIALLY
GO
PAST
THE
% AMOUNT
OF
TIME
OF
A
PERSON'S% ORIGINAL
SENTENCING,
AND
IN
SOME
% CASES,
LIKE, HOW
LONG
PAST
THEIR
% ORIGINAL SENTENCE?
% HAVE
WE
SEEN
OTHER
JUDGES
DO
% THIS?
% IS
THIS
VERY
UNIQUE
TO THIS
% JUDGE?
% >>
SO WE
WORKED WITH COURT
DATA
% TECHNOLOGIES, WHICH IS A
FIRM
IN
% WISCONSIN
IN
MADISON THAT
HOLDS
% DATA IN
ALL
COURT
CASES
AND
ALL
% JUDGES IN
WISCONSIN,
AND FROM
% THE
STATEWIDE
ANALYSIS, WE
% ULTIMATELY
DETERMINED
THAT
IT
% DOES
HAPPEN FROM TIME TO TIME
% POTENTIALLY,
BUT
NOWHERE
NEAR
% THE
EXTENT
THAT IT
HAPPENS
WITH
% THIS
JUDGE, AND
SO
FOR
CASES
% WHERE PROBATION
WAS
REVOKED,
AND
% THEN HE WAS
HOLDING REVIEW
% HEARINGS
AFTERWARDS IN THE
CASES
% DESCRIBED
WITH BEAU
JAMMES
AND% CHRISTOPHER
KARTSOUNES,
WE
SAW% HE WAS
HOLDING TWICE A
S
MANY
% REVIEW
HEARINGS
AS
THE
NEXT
% HIGHEST
JUDGE
FROM
2014
TO
2020,
% AND
SO
IT
CERTAINLY DOESN'T
% HAPPEN TO
THE
EXTREME
EXTENT
% THAT
WE
COULD
FIND,
AND,
YEAH,
% THIS SORT
OF
PROCESS
CAN
% ENTANGLE
PEOPLE IN
THE
JUSTICE
% SYSTEM
FOR
A
VERY
LONG
TIME
% BECAUSE IF
YOU
ARE
NOT
% SUCCESSFUL, THEN YOU HAVE TO
GO
% BACK TO
JAIL.
% IN
THE
SAME
WAY
THAT
IF
YOU ARE% NOT SUCCESSFUL
IN
PROBATION
YOU
% MIGHT
END
UP
HAVING
TO
GO
TO
% JAIL.
% WE
TALKED
T
O
SOMEONE
NAMED
% CHARLES
JOE
WRIGHTER
IV
GIVEN
% NINE
MONTHS I
N
JAIL IN
SEPTEMBER
% OF
2015,
AND HE
WAS
LED
OUT
TO
% ATTEND
TREATMENT,
AND
HE
WAS
% SENT
BACK
TO
JAIL
IN
EARLY
2018.
% HE WOULD
HAVE
BEEN
FINISHED
WITH
% HIS SENTENCE.
% HE WOULD HAVE
BEEN
FREE
HAD
HE
% JUST
SERVED
THE
STRAIGHT
JAIL
% SENTENCE ABOUT
TWO
YEARS
% EARLIER.
% HIS CASE
STRETCHED ON
FOR
TWO
% EXTRA
YEARS.
% AND CHRISTOPHER KARTSOUNES MIGHT
% HAVE BEEN OUT, YOU
KNOW,
SIX
% MONTHS EARLIER IF
HE
JUST
SAT
% THE
STRAIGHT
JAIL
SENTENCE,
AND
% SO ON
AND
SO
ON.
% >>
S
O
IT
FEELS LIKE
YOU
ARE
JUST
% AT
THE
WHIM OF
THE
JUDGE,
AND IT
% IS
HARD
TO
KNOW.
% DID
NOBODY
INTERVENE
ON
BEHALF
% OF
THESE
DEFENDANTS?
% DID
THEY
HAVE
ATTORNEYS?
% DID
ANYONE
ELSE SEE
THAT
THIS
IS
% SOMETHING TO
LOOK
INTO
?
% >>
SO
ONE
THING
I
WILL
SAY
IS
% THAT
IT
WASN'T
WELL-KNOWN IN
% OUTAGAMIE
COUNTY THIS
WAS
% HAPPENING
IN
JUDGE VINCENT
% BISKUPIC'S COURTROOM.
% THERE WAS
PEOPLE IN THE
% OUTAGAMIE
COUNTY
CRIMINAL
% JUSTICE SYSTEM
WHO
HAD
NO
IDEA
% THAT THIS WAS
HAPPENING,
AND
% MOST
OF
THESE
PEOPLE,
EVERYONE
% HAD
AN
ATTORNEY
WHEN
THEY
WERE
% GOING THROUGH
THE
INITIAL
% CONVICTION AND
SENTENCING
% PROCESS.
% MOST
OFTEN,
THE
PUBLIC
% DEFENDER'S OFFICE
STOPS
% REPRESENTING
PEOPLE, YOU
KNOW,
% AFTER THEY
GET
SENTENCED.
% YOU
KNOW, THEY
STAY
ON
FOR
A
% PARTICULAR PERIOD OF TIME, BUT
% IT MIGHT BE
SOMETHING
LIKE
20
% DAYS, AND
THEN
THE
CASE SHOULD
% BE
OVER
BECAUSE
THE
PERSON% SHOULD BE
SERVING
THEIR
SENTENCE% AND
THERE'S NO
NEED
FOR
AN
% ATTORNEY
PRESUMABLY, AND
SO
IN
% SOME
CASES,
PEOPLE
WERE
JUST
% LEFT
WITHOUT
ATTORNEYS
TO
DEAL
% WITH
THIS
ON
THEIR
OWN,
AND% THERE WERE A
FEW
INSTANCES
WE
% FOUND
IN
WHICH
A
PUBLIC
DEFENDER
% OR
A
DISTRICT
ATTORNEY'S OFFICE
% OR THE
DEFENDANT,
THEMSELVES,
% DID OBJECT
TO
THIS
ONGOING
% SUPERVISION OR
OBJECT TO
THE
% JURISDICTION AT THE
BEGINNING
% OUTRIGHT,
BUT
THOSE WEREN'T
% PARTICULARLY
EFFECTIVE,
AND
IT
% STILL
CONTINUED
IN
THOSE
CASES% FOR
THE
MOS
T
PART.
% WE
ONLY
FOUND
ONE
PERSON WHO
% TRIED
TO
APPEAL
THE
ACTUAL
STAY,
% AND THAT
WAS BEAU
JAMMES
AFTER% HE WAS SENT
BACK
TO
JAIL.
% HIS ATTORNEY BELIEVED
THAT
THE
% SUPERVISION OR THAT
RATHER
% DURING
THAT
19-MONTH
PERIOD
OF
% SUPERVISION, THE
JUDGE'S
% JURISDICTION OR
OFFICIAL% AUTHORITY OVER THE
CASE
HAD
% EXPIRED, BUT
IN
THAT
CASE,
THE
% DEFENSE ATTORNEY SAID
HE
HAD
N
O
% IDEA
HOW
LONG
THE
CASE WAS
GOING
% TO RUN
FOR,
AND
SO
IT MIGHT HAVE% BEEN
SORT
OF
A
WASTED
EFFORT
TO
% APPEAL TO THE COURT
OF
APPEALS
% BECAUSE BY
THE
TIME
THEY
SAW
THE
% CASE, HE WAS
OUT
OF
JAIL.
% >>
IN
KIND OF
THE
LARGEST
%
NATIONAL
CONTEXT,
THERE'S BEEN
A
% LOT
OF
DISCUSSION
ABOUT
CRIMINAL
% JUSTICE
REFORM
AND
REFORMING THE
% SYSTEM
IN
GENERAL,
YOU
KNOW, NOT
% PUTTING PEOPLE
IN
JAIL
AND
JUST
% THROWING
AWAY
THE
KEY, BUT
% TRYING
TO
ACTUALLY YOU
KNOW,
% MAKE
PEOPLE
BETTER,
RESTORATIVE
% JUSTICE, THINGS
LIKE
THAT.
% DOES
ANYONE SEE
WHAT
THE
JUDGE
%
IS
DOING
AS
A
GOOD
THING?
% THIS
IS
AN
ALTERNATIVE
TO
JAIL
% TIME.
% HE'S
TRYING
TO
HELP THEM
GET
% OVER
ADDICTIONS.
% HE'S
TRYING
TO
HELP
THEM FIND
% JOBS,
GET
EDUCATION.
% ARE THERE
PEOPLE
WHO
DEFEND
WHAT
% HE'S
DOING
?
% >>
YEAH.
% SO WE
SPOKE
TO
A
COUPLE
OF
% PEOPLE
WHO
WERE
SUBJECTED TO THE
% ARRANGEMENTS, A WOMAN
IN
% PARTICULAR
NAMED
KRISTIN
% GURHOLT, WHO
APPRECIATED
WHAT
% THE
JUDGE
DID
AND THAT
WAS
% UNUSUAL, BUT
SHE
FELT
IT
HELPED
% HER.
%
SHE
HAD
TO
WRITE
A
LETTER
TO
HER
% SON IN
THIS
CASE,
AND
ANOTHER
% CASE,
WE
HEARD, I
WAS
GRATEFUL% FOR THE CHANCE TO GO
TO
% ADDICTION TREATMENT
BECAUSE
% YOU'RE SOBER I
N
JAIL,
BUT
YOU'RE
% NOT
ACTUALLY
GOING
THROUGH
% THERAPY
TO
TREATMENT.
% ONE OF
THE
BIG
DIFFERENCES,
% THOUGH,
IS
THAT
IN
A
FORMAL
% TREATMENT
COURT,
THEY
USE
A
% MEDICAL
MODEL,
THERE'S
NATIONAL
% STANDARDS
TO
ADHERE
TO AS WELL
% AS STATE
STANDARDS,
AND
EVERY
% PERSON WHO
GOES
THROUGH
% TREATMENT
COURT
HAS,
YOU
KNOW,
% AT
LEAST
A
THREE-PERSON
TEAM
OF
% A
PROJECT
COORDINATOR, A
PROGRAM
% COORDINATOR, THE
JUDGE,
A
% PROBATION
AGENT,
PERHAPS,
AND
% THEIR
TREATMENT
PROVIDER WHO I
S
% HELPING THAT
PERSON
ALONG,
% WHEREAS THIS WAS
JUST
THE
JUDGE
% SAYING, YOU'RE IN
JAIL,
GO
FIND
% TREATMENT, AND I'LL
LET
YOU
OUT.
% SO THERE
ARE
NOT
AS
MANY
% SUPPORTS, BUT I
TALKED TO
A
% JUDGE
IN
BROWN
COUNTY
WHO
SAID% HE WAS
FAMILIAR
WITH
SO-CALLED
% PROBATION TO THE
COURT
FROM
AS
% EARLY A
S
50
YEARS
AGO,
WHO
SAID,
% YOU
KNOW,
I
USE
THEM IN
A
% LIMITED FASHION
WHEN
SOMEONE WAS
% CONVICTED OF
DRIVING OF
A
% REVOKED
LICENSE,
AND RATHER THAN
% TELLING THEM
TO
GO
TO
JAIL,
I
% STAY THE
JAIL
TIME
AND
LET
THEM
% GET A DRIVER'S
LICENSE,
AND
COME
% BACK TO
ME
IN
SIX
MONTHS,
SHOW
% ME
YOU
HAVE
YOUR
LICENSE,
AND
% WE'LL CONSIDER
THE
CASE
CLOSED.
% THAT WAS
SORT
OF --
PEOPLE SAW
% THAT AS
AN
EFFECTIVE
WAY
TO
% HANDLE SOMETHING THAT
PERHAPS
% DIDN'T
NEED TO
BE IN
THE
% CRIMINAL JUSTICE
SYSTEM
AT
ALL.
% THE BIG THING IS
THAT
YOU
NEED
% GUARDRAILS
AND
SUPERVISION IN% ORDER TO
MAKE
SURE
THAT, YOU
%
KNOW,
THAT
THIS
TACTIC
IS
BEING
% USED IN
A
CONSTRUCTIVE WAY
WAS
% THE
CRITICISM THAT WAS
RAISED.
% >>
AND IT IS
INTERESTING
YOU
% SPOKE WITH A
LOT
OF
LEGAL
% EXPERTS,
JUDGES,
TO
GET
THEIR
% OPINION ON,
YOU
KNOW,
HAVE
YOU
% USED
THIS,
IS
THIS
LEGAL,
AND
% SOME
DEFENDED
IT,
AND
TWO
QUOTES
% THAT STOOD OUT
TO
ME
WERE
ONE
% SAID
THIS
IS
PART
OF
HIS
% INHERENT POWER OF
THE
COURT,
AND
% ANOTHER
JUDGE SAID
THAT
HE
HAS
% ABSOLUTE
IMMUNITY
WHEN
% PERFORMING
OFFICIAL
DUTIES.
% DO
CIRCUIT COURT
JUDGES
HAVE
% THIS MUCH
AUTHORITY, AND
AS
YOU
% SAID, THERE
ARE
NOT
CHECKS
ON
% IT, SO
IS
IT TECH
ANY --
% TECHNICALLY LEGAL THE
AMOUNT
OF
% AUTHORITY
HE'S
ADMITTING
IN
HIS
% COURTROOM?%>> WE
TALKED
T
O
SOMETHING LIKE
% 26,
28
LEGAL
EXPERTS,
AND
THE
% OPINIONS
WERE
SUPER
MIXED,
AND
% SO I CAN'T WEIGH IN
ON WHETHER% OR NOT
IT'S
TRULY
LEGAL,
BUT,
% YOU
KNOW,
SO
IN
TERMS
OF
% INHERENT POWER OF
THE
COURT,
% THAT'S
A
TERM
THAT
KEPT
COMING
% UP,
PARTICULARLY FROM
JUDGES
% WHOM I
SPOKE
TO,
WHO
WERE
IN
% FAVOR
OF
THIS
SORT
OF
% DISPOSITION, AND
THEY
SAID,
YOU
% KNOW,
COURTS HAVE
TO
B
E
ABLE
TO
% DO
WHAT
THEY
NEED TO
DO
TO,
YOU
% KNOW,
RESOLVE
A
SITUATION,
% PARTICULARLY
IF
THE
LEGISLATURE
% HAS NOT
MAPPED
OUT
EXACTLY WHAT
% NEEDS
TO
HAPPEN
SO
THE
% LEGISLATURE
IS
NOT, YOU
KNOW,
% HOLDING THE
JUDGE'S
HAND WHILE
% THEY A
RE
WRITING,
SO
TO
SPEAK,
% AND THE
JUDGES
DO
HAVE
SOME
% CONTROL
OVER
WHAT
SENTENCES
THEY
% CHOOSE.
% OTHER
PEOPLE
SAID,
YOU
KNOW,
% INHERENT
AUTHORITY, WHATEVER YOU
% MAY HAVE
AS
A
JUDGE,
IS
STILL
% BOUND
BY
THE
PARAMETERS
OF
STATE
% STATUTE AND
CASE
LAW
THAT
IS
SAT
% DOWN
BY
THE SUPREME COURT AND
% THE COURT
OF
APPEALS.
% FOR
INSTANCE,
THERE SHOULD BE
% SORT
OF
LIKE
MAXIMUM
PENALTIES
%
FOR CRIMES,
AND
YOU
CAN'T
GO
% OVER THAT
FOR, YOU
KNOW,
JUST
% BECAUSE YOU
WANT
TO
DO
THAT,
AND
% SO IT IS
SORT
OF
LIMITED.
% THE
ABSOLUTE
IMMUNITY,
WHEN
% PERFORMING
OFFICIAL
DUTIES
% QUOTES
COMES
FROM
A
MAGISTRATE
% JUDGE WHO
THREW
OUT BEAU
JAMMES'% FEDERAL LAWSUIT.%THAT
MEANS
SIMILAR TO THE
WAY
% THAT POLICE OFFICERS
OFTEN
HAVE
% QUALIFIED
IMMUNITY
AND
ARE
% BASICALLY
IMMUNE
FROM
% PROSECUTION WHILE
ACTING AS% POLICE OFFICERS, JUDGES
HAVE
THE
% SAME
THING,
SO
IN
THAT
CASE,
% BECAUSE BEAU JAMMES
DIDN'T
ARGUE% HE
WAS -- THAT
THE
JUDGE
WAS
% ACTING
EXTRA
JUDICIOUSLY
OR
% OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF
WHAT
A
% NORMAL JUDGE WOULD
DO,
THE
CASE
% GOT THROWN
OUT, AND
SO,
YOU
% KNOW, AS I
MENTIONED
EARLIER,
% THE SUPREME
COURT,
OR,
EXCUSE
% ME,
THE COURT OF
APPEALS
DID
% HAVE
A
CASE IN
2000 THAT WAS
% LOOKING
AT
SOMETHING
VERY
% SIMILAR TO
THIS,
A
COUNTY JUDGE
% STAYED A
SENTENCE
SO
A
PERSON
% COULD GET
ADDICTION
TREATMENT,
% AND IN
THAT
CASE, THE
COURT
OF
% APPEALS
SAID,
ACTUALLY,
THE
CASE
% LAW
AND
STATUTES DO
NOT
SUPPORT
% THIS,
THAT, YOU
KNOW,
A
JUDGE
% CAN'T ACT
ON
HIS
OWN
AUTHORITY
% TO
CREATE DE
FACTO PROBATION.
% THAT WAS
THE
QUOTE
IN
THAT
CASE,
% AND
THAT
DOING
SO
IS
MORE
AKIN% TO THE
POWER OF THE
GOVERNOR
TO,
% YOU
KNOW,
ISSUE
PARDONS, AND
SO,
% YOU
KNOW, THAT'S
A
QUESTION OF
% SORT OF
SEPARATION
OF
POWERS,
% BUT THA
T
CASE
WAS
NOT
PUBLISHED,% AND
SO IT
IS
NONBINDING,
AND,
% YOU
KNOW,
IT
DOESN'T REQUIRE
% JUDGES
TO
ABIDE BY THAT
WAY, AND% THE RULE
OF
APPEALS
IS
IF NO
ONE
% APPEALS
THE
CASE,
THAT'S SORT
OF --
IT
STANDS IN
THAT
CASE,
% AND AS I
SAID,
NONE
OF
THESE
% CASES HAVE
BEEN
APPEALED
SO
THE
% RULINGS
STAND.
% >>
HUH.
% WHAT
IS
JUDGE VINCENT
BISKUPIC'S% RESPONSE TO ALL OF
THIS?
% IS
HE
STILL
DOING
THIS
IN
HIS
% COURTROOM?
% HOW
DOES
HE
DEFEND
HIMSELF?
% >>
SO
WE
DIDN'T
GET
TO
TALK
TO
% THE JUDGE
DIRECTLY.
% WE
WERE
COMMUNICATING THROUGH
% HIS
PRIVATE
ATTORNEY
FOR
THE
% MAJORITY OF
THE
CASE.
% HE
PROVIDED
A
STATEMENT
IN
WHICH
% HE
SAID,
YOU
KNOW,
I
HAVE
% PRESIDED OVER CLOSE
TO
1,000
OR
% MAYBE MORE
THAN A
THOUSAND
% CASES,
I
FORGET
THE
EXACT
NUMBER -- COULD BE
10,000 --
% PRESIDED OVER
THOUSANDS OF
% CASES, WE
LOOKED AT
50.
% HE
SAID
THEY
MOSTLY
RESOLVE
% BETWEEN
2015
AND
2018.
% WE
DID
FIND
SOME
REVIEW HEARINGS
% HAPPENING INTO
2020
DURING
THE
% PANDEMIC, BUT
IT'S
UNCLEAR% WHETHER OR
NOT
HE'S
CONTINUING
% THIS PRACTICE BECAUSE
HE
WOULD
% NOT
ANSWER THAT
QUESTION.
% THE
JUDGE
SAID
THAT
NONE
OF
HIS
% CASES
HAVE
BEEN
OVERTURNED IN
% THE
APPELLATE
COURT,
WHICH IS
% TRUE, AND SAID
THAT
HE
CONSIDERS
% ALL
METHODS
AVAILABLE
FOR
% SENTENCING, INCLUDING
OPTIONS
OF
% GETTING PEOPLE
INTO
TREATMENT
.
% >>
SO
UNDERSTANDING ALL
SIDES
OF
% THIS,
SOME
ARE
IN
FAVOR OF
IT.
% SOME
ARE
NOT, IT'S
A
LEGAL
GRAY
% AREA, DID
YOU
SPEAK
TO
ANY
LEGAL
% EXPERTS, OR
DID
ANY
IDEAS
ABOUT
% WHAT
KIND
OF
REFORMS MIGHT BE
% NEEDED IN
LIGHT
OF
WHAT'S
% HAPPENING
IN
THIS
OUTAGAMIE
% COURTROOM?
% >>
SO
SOME
PEOPLE
WHO
SAW
A
% POTENTIAL
BENEFIT
TO
THIS
% PARTICULAR
SOLUTION
OR
THIS
% PARTICULAR
ARRANGEMENT
SUGGESTED
% THAT, YOU
KNOW,
THE
STATE
% LEGISLATURE TAKE A
LOOK
AT
% CODIFYING THIS
BECAUSE
BY
% CODIFYING IT
YOU'RE
NOT
% NECESSARILY
ENDORSING THE
% PRACTICE, BUT
RATHER
PROVIDING
% THOSE
GUARDRAILS
IN
CASE
IT
% HAPPENS IN
THE
FUTURE.
% ONE
DEFENSE ATTORNEY
HAD
A
% BEAUTIFUL
METAPHOR
TALKING
ABOUT
%
WHAT THE
JUDGE
AND
ATTORNEYS
WHO
% ARE
AGREEING
TO
THIS
% ARRANGEMENT,
WHAT
THEY
ARE
DOING
% IS
CREATING
THEIR
OWN
PATHS
% THROUGH A
PARKING
MAYBE
GOING
% OFF OF THE
PAVED
SIDEWALK AND
% TRAMPLING ON
THE
FLOWERS RIGHT
% NOW, AND IF
THE
LEGISLATURE
% LOOKS INTO
SORT
OF
PAVING
THAT
% NEW
PATH,
THAT
DESIRE LINE
% THROUGH
THE
PARK,
YOU
KNOW,
IT
% MIGHT
WORK
OUT
FOR
EVERYBODY.
% THERE COULD BE
PEOPLE
WHO
GET
TO
% AVOID JAIL
TIME, BUT
WHO
ARE
NOT
% NECESSARILY
SUBJECTED TO
% POTENTIALLY YEARS
OF
SUPERVISION
% WITHOUT CLEAR
ANSWER
AS
TO
WHEN
% IT'LL END
SO THAT WAS
THE
% BIGGEST
THING WAS
POTENTIALLY
% THE
STATE
LEGISLATURE
COULD
LOOK
% INTO
EXAMINING
AND
THEN
LAYING
% OUT
WHAT
THE
ACTUAL
PARAMETERS% SHOULD BE
JUST
LIKE WE
HAVE
THAT
% FOR
PROBATION
.
% >> A
LOT
OF
EXCELLENT
REPORTING% SO FAR.
% ARE
THERE
MORE
STORIES
TO
COME
% IN
THIS
SERIES
?
% >> YEAH.
% SO
WE'LL
BE
COVERING
TWO OF
THE
% MAJOR
THEMES
FROM
OUR
REPORTING% IN
THE
UPCOMING
SERIES.
% SO ONE
OF
THEM
IS
HOW
JUDGE% VINCENT BISKUPIC
USED REVIEW
% HEARINGS
TO
MONITOR
PAYMENTS OF
% COSTS, FUNDS,
FEES,
AND
% RESTITUTION.
% THIS
IS
SOMETHING
THAT
% ORDINARILY THE CLERK OF
COURTS
% HANDLES,
A
CIVIL
AUTHORITY
THAT
% DOESN'T
HAVE
THE
POWER
TO
JAIL
% YOU OR
ARREST
YOU,
AND
THE
% SECOND PART
THAT'S
COMING OUT IN
% THE
NEXT
FEW
WEEKS
IS
LOOKING
AT
% HOW
THE
JUDGE OFTEN
ORDERED
% PEOPLE TO
GO
TO
ADDICTION
% TREATMENT AND
HOW
THAT
COMPARES% WITH THE
ESTABLISHED
TREATMENT
% PORTS.
% >>
WE'LL
KEEP
AN
EYE
OUT
FOR
% THOSE.
% PHOEBE PETROVIC
O
F
WISCONSIN
% WATCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
% JOINING
US.
% >>
THANK
YOU
FOR HAVING
ME.
% >>
FOR
MORE
O
F
HER
REPORTING,% VISIT
WISCONSINWATCH.ORG, AND
% FOR
MORE
FROM "HERE & NOW"
AND
% PBS
WISCONSIN, VISIT
% PBSWISCONSIN.ORG/NEWS
AND THANK
% YOU SO MUCH
FOR
JOINING
US
TODAY
% ON
"NOON
WEDNESDAY."