1 00:00:04,004 --> 00:00:07,608 >> The following program is a PBS Wisconsin Original 2 00:00:07,674 --> 00:00:09,843 production. >> Don't you have a right 3 00:00:09,910 --> 00:00:12,880 to know what your government has on you? 4 00:00:12,946 --> 00:00:15,516 These are questions that communities really do need 5 00:00:15,582 --> 00:00:19,052 to wrestle with. >> The fuss over flock 6 00:00:19,119 --> 00:00:22,155 cameras. >> That means four years of 7 00:00:22,222 --> 00:00:24,625 predictable tuition, with costs that remain well 8 00:00:24,691 --> 00:00:28,395 below inflation. >> And a proposed tuition 9 00:00:28,462 --> 00:00:31,598 freeze. I'm Frederica Freyberg. 10 00:00:32,332 --> 00:00:36,236 Tonight on "Here& Now", we explore the impact of 11 00:00:36,303 --> 00:00:39,473 inflation and affordability when coupled with the 12 00:00:39,540 --> 00:00:43,143 financial stress of student loans. An infectious 13 00:00:43,210 --> 00:00:46,180 disease doctor joins us to discuss the recent increase 14 00:00:46,246 --> 00:00:51,285 in cases of measles inside Wisconsin politics, looks 15 00:00:51,351 --> 00:00:54,154 at how data centers have become a flashpoint in the 16 00:00:54,221 --> 00:00:57,791 race for governor. And we get an update on the 17 00:00:57,858 --> 00:01:01,562 controversy over so-called flock cameras and a 18 00:01:01,628 --> 00:01:04,531 perspective on their use from a former police chief. 19 00:01:04,598 --> 00:01:08,502 It's "Here& Now" for Friday, August 21st. 20 00:01:10,537 --> 00:01:13,040 >> Funding for Here and Now is provided by the Focus 21 00:01:13,106 --> 00:01:17,778 Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin. 22 00:01:25,853 --> 00:01:28,088 >> Wisconsin is experiencing one of the 23 00:01:28,155 --> 00:01:31,558 largest measles outbreaks in several years. At last 24 00:01:31,625 --> 00:01:34,628 count, the Department of Health Services has 25 00:01:34,695 --> 00:01:38,565 identified 48 cases and one hospitalization, mostly in 26 00:01:38,632 --> 00:01:41,435 the southwest part of the state, and the case count 27 00:01:41,502 --> 00:01:44,605 has grown rapidly due to how highly contagious 28 00:01:44,671 --> 00:01:47,908 measles is among the unvaccinated. With the 29 00:01:47,975 --> 00:01:50,143 latest, we're joined by Doctor Ryan Westergaard, 30 00:01:50,210 --> 00:01:54,414 chief medical officer with the Wisconsin DHS Bureau of 31 00:01:54,481 --> 00:01:55,983 Communicable Disease. And doctor, thanks very much 32 00:01:56,049 --> 00:01:58,519 for being here. >> Thank you for having me. 33 00:01:58,585 --> 00:02:00,320 >> Describe how fast this has spread in this latest 34 00:02:00,387 --> 00:02:02,623 outbreak. >> Well, unlike some 35 00:02:02,689 --> 00:02:04,892 previous outbreaks, we didn't catch this one at 36 00:02:04,958 --> 00:02:08,061 the very beginning. We we identified cases that may 37 00:02:08,128 --> 00:02:10,664 have been associated with some families that had 38 00:02:10,731 --> 00:02:13,333 symptoms for a few weeks. So it might even have been 39 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:16,270 going on for a month. When we did first detect it a 40 00:02:16,336 --> 00:02:19,239 couple of weeks ago, it's doubled about every 4 or 5 41 00:02:19,306 --> 00:02:21,441 days. So we started with just two cases confirmed. 42 00:02:21,508 --> 00:02:25,078 Now we're up to 48. So that number goes up when our 43 00:02:25,145 --> 00:02:28,582 investigators and local in the community, following 44 00:02:28,649 --> 00:02:31,852 up on people who report symptoms, identifying 45 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,687 contacts, and when they find people with note with 46 00:02:33,754 --> 00:02:36,690 new symptoms, or they hear about a new test, that 47 00:02:36,757 --> 00:02:38,792 number goes up. So this is often what we see with 48 00:02:38,859 --> 00:02:40,727 measles outbreaks. >> How do public health 49 00:02:40,794 --> 00:02:43,063 officials get a handle on it? 50 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:46,667 >> Yeah, it's it's pretty painstaking. And we give 51 00:02:46,733 --> 00:02:49,636 them so much, so much credit for their dedication 52 00:02:49,703 --> 00:02:53,140 out in the communities. So measles is one of the 53 00:02:53,207 --> 00:02:55,709 reportable conditions. So every positive lab test and 54 00:02:55,776 --> 00:02:58,545 every diagnosis made in a clinic we hear about in 55 00:02:58,612 --> 00:03:01,448 public health and here in Wisconsin, it's our local 56 00:03:01,515 --> 00:03:03,851 health departments, usually at the county or sometimes 57 00:03:03,917 --> 00:03:06,954 the city level that are the front line. So where I work 58 00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:09,356 at the state health department, we we support, 59 00:03:09,423 --> 00:03:12,526 we aggregate the data, but the work that gets done in 60 00:03:12,593 --> 00:03:15,329 the community is involves every single person who is 61 00:03:15,395 --> 00:03:19,032 identified with measles gets an interview where an 62 00:03:19,099 --> 00:03:21,101 investigator, sometimes a public health nurse or a 63 00:03:21,168 --> 00:03:24,037 full time disease investigator will meet with 64 00:03:24,104 --> 00:03:27,641 them in person, face to face with. With. Personal 65 00:03:27,708 --> 00:03:30,043 protective equipment when. When needed, and they'll 66 00:03:30,110 --> 00:03:32,779 confidentially try to understand places and 67 00:03:32,846 --> 00:03:35,482 people where they've been in contact. And then we can 68 00:03:35,549 --> 00:03:38,051 then spread out and identify other people who 69 00:03:38,118 --> 00:03:40,287 have been exposed, give them the advice that they 70 00:03:40,354 --> 00:03:43,423 need about to double check their vaccination status or 71 00:03:43,490 --> 00:03:47,427 to get a post-exposure prophylaxis, meaning a 72 00:03:47,494 --> 00:03:49,696 vaccine. And, and so that's, that's the work that's 73 00:03:49,763 --> 00:03:53,133 being done right now. And we're probably going to see 74 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,435 more cases as a result of those investigations. 75 00:03:55,502 --> 00:03:58,105 >> With childhood vaccination rates, 76 00:03:58,172 --> 00:04:02,576 including for measles sitting at about 85% for 77 00:04:02,643 --> 00:04:04,912 incoming kindergartners in Wisconsin. Was it just a 78 00:04:04,978 --> 00:04:07,514 matter of time before this outbreak happened? 79 00:04:07,581 --> 00:04:10,017 >> I think the answer is yes to that. We've we've 80 00:04:10,083 --> 00:04:13,320 been concerned about the level of childhood 81 00:04:13,387 --> 00:04:15,756 vaccinations being too low. Measles, as you said, is 82 00:04:15,822 --> 00:04:19,359 probably our most contagious virus. And the 83 00:04:19,426 --> 00:04:21,295 classical teaching in public health school is 84 00:04:21,361 --> 00:04:24,531 that you really need to have a community with 95% 85 00:04:24,598 --> 00:04:28,202 vaccine coverage or greater to prevent an outbreak. If 86 00:04:28,268 --> 00:04:31,071 there is a case that comes into the community through 87 00:04:31,138 --> 00:04:34,308 travel, for example. So we have many communities that 88 00:04:34,374 --> 00:04:38,946 are below 90 and below 85%. And so for the past year 89 00:04:40,380 --> 00:04:42,349 and a half, where there have been measles outbreaks 90 00:04:42,416 --> 00:04:44,151 occurring in different places of the country, 91 00:04:44,218 --> 00:04:46,453 we've kind of been anticipating when is it 92 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,590 going to come to Wisconsin. The benefit of that is that 93 00:04:49,656 --> 00:04:52,626 we were ready and we're we're making the right 94 00:04:52,693 --> 00:04:56,263 resources available to our southwestern counties, and 95 00:04:56,330 --> 00:04:59,499 hopefully we'll take this what is now a medium sized 96 00:04:59,566 --> 00:05:02,002 outbreak and keep it that small and prevent it from 97 00:05:02,069 --> 00:05:04,338 getting to be a large one like we've seen in some 98 00:05:04,404 --> 00:05:06,974 other states. get measles? 99 00:05:07,708 --> 00:05:11,278 >> Measles is can be a pretty serious infection. 100 00:05:11,345 --> 00:05:14,314 And it's a it's a good question to ask and to talk 101 00:05:14,381 --> 00:05:17,117 about, because there's been so little measles around in 102 00:05:17,184 --> 00:05:20,320 this country for so long that many physicians that 103 00:05:20,387 --> 00:05:23,156 are my generation or younger have never seen a 104 00:05:23,223 --> 00:05:27,528 case. So measles can is a respiratory virus. So it 105 00:05:27,594 --> 00:05:30,063 spreads through the air, which is what makes it so 106 00:05:30,130 --> 00:05:32,299 contagious. The other side of the room, particles can 107 00:05:32,366 --> 00:05:35,202 remain suspended in the air and cause an infection. But 108 00:05:35,269 --> 00:05:38,071 when it gets into the body, through the nose or mouth 109 00:05:38,138 --> 00:05:41,508 mouth, it causes a whole body. A systemic infection 110 00:05:41,575 --> 00:05:45,078 causes high fever, sometimes as high as 105, a 111 00:05:45,145 --> 00:05:48,382 whole body rash that is, the characteristic dense 112 00:05:48,448 --> 00:05:51,051 red measles rash that starts on the head and then 113 00:05:51,118 --> 00:05:54,087 spreads to the whole body. And so most anyone that 114 00:05:54,154 --> 00:05:56,557 gets measles will have those symptoms and feel 115 00:05:56,623 --> 00:05:59,493 pretty terrible. But a subset of people with 116 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,828 measles can get really severe illness, and it can 117 00:06:01,895 --> 00:06:04,631 cause pneumonia and cause encephalitis or swelling of 118 00:06:04,698 --> 00:06:07,935 the brain. And sometimes, particularly in children, 119 00:06:08,001 --> 00:06:10,838 that brain inflammation can cause permanent 120 00:06:10,904 --> 00:06:12,906 disabilities like blindness or deafness. So so it's a 121 00:06:12,973 --> 00:06:15,576 serious it's a serious infection, one that we want 122 00:06:15,642 --> 00:06:18,345 to prevent. And our goal is to is to eliminate measles. 123 00:06:18,412 --> 00:06:20,447 So there's actually not spreading in our 124 00:06:20,514 --> 00:06:22,683 communities at all. And that's why the stakes are 125 00:06:22,749 --> 00:06:26,019 kind of high. there was a measles vaccine? 126 00:06:26,086 --> 00:06:28,288 >> Yeah. The measles vaccine or version of the 127 00:06:28,355 --> 00:06:32,693 measles vaccine was released in 1963. So a good 128 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,264 long time ago and the decades before that, 129 00:06:37,764 --> 00:06:40,200 essentially everyone got measles during childhood. 130 00:06:40,267 --> 00:06:43,036 Right. And so that's why there's some misconception 131 00:06:43,103 --> 00:06:45,839 that this is a sort of a normal part of childhood. 132 00:06:45,906 --> 00:06:48,842 But what we don't remember is that when 3 to 4 million 133 00:06:48,909 --> 00:06:51,078 children in the US get measles in a year like they 134 00:06:51,144 --> 00:06:54,047 did in the 50s and 60s, that means that several 135 00:06:54,114 --> 00:06:57,150 hundred children, young babies, will will die from 136 00:06:57,217 --> 00:07:00,153 the serious complications. So in that decade before we 137 00:07:00,220 --> 00:07:03,790 had MMR vaccine, there were 3 to 400 deaths in children 138 00:07:03,857 --> 00:07:05,526 per year. >> Doctor Ryan Westergaard, 139 00:07:05,592 --> 00:07:07,094 thanks very much for your update. 140 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,163 >> Yeah, thanks for being for having me. 141 00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:13,233 >> Turning to this week's Inside Wisconsin politics. 142 00:07:13,300 --> 00:07:16,837 Our panel of reporters discussed the campaign 143 00:07:16,904 --> 00:07:19,473 implications of data centers and how the 144 00:07:19,540 --> 00:07:22,142 candidates for governor are treating the brand new 145 00:07:22,209 --> 00:07:25,279 wedge issue. >> As far as wedge issues 146 00:07:25,345 --> 00:07:28,549 go, it's fairly clever. This is a relatively new 147 00:07:28,615 --> 00:07:31,685 issue to politics, so it's not defined in the way that 148 00:07:31,752 --> 00:07:33,654 some other issues are. You don't know exactly where 149 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,090 the interest groups stand with the parties. So Ana 150 00:07:37,157 --> 00:07:40,727 how is that playing out in this attack from Tom 151 00:07:40,794 --> 00:07:42,829 Tiffany? How is he going after David Crowley trying 152 00:07:42,896 --> 00:07:45,098 to frame him? >> Yeah, I mean, he's 153 00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:47,234 trying to use his initials against him. He's calling 154 00:07:47,301 --> 00:07:51,839 him Data Data Center. David Crowley DC, DC as a way of 155 00:07:51,905 --> 00:07:54,808 trying to kind of tie him to this. And the way he's 156 00:07:54,875 --> 00:07:57,077 doing it is in a slightly convoluted way by saying 157 00:07:57,144 --> 00:07:59,046 that because David Crowley hasn't pledged to kind of 158 00:07:59,112 --> 00:08:01,148 roll back these specific tax incentives, that that 159 00:08:01,215 --> 00:08:03,717 makes him more pro data center. David Crowley is 160 00:08:03,784 --> 00:08:05,919 also kind of trying to split the difference a 161 00:08:05,986 --> 00:08:08,188 little bit and say, well, I support local control. So 162 00:08:08,255 --> 00:08:10,858 communities that don't want it don't have to have it. I 163 00:08:10,924 --> 00:08:13,527 would want, you know, sort of tight controls and 164 00:08:13,594 --> 00:08:16,029 regulations in this kind of thing. But the other kind 165 00:08:16,096 --> 00:08:18,232 of interesting piece of how Tom Tiffany is handling 166 00:08:18,298 --> 00:08:21,001 this. So I went yesterday to an endorsement 167 00:08:21,068 --> 00:08:22,769 announcement for these environmental groups that 168 00:08:22,836 --> 00:08:25,339 are now backing David Crowley. And of course, 169 00:08:25,405 --> 00:08:27,641 environmental concerns are very tied up in people's 170 00:08:27,708 --> 00:08:29,977 concerns over data centers. And part of the way that 171 00:08:30,043 --> 00:08:33,614 that Tom Tiffany is now framing it is that data 172 00:08:33,680 --> 00:08:36,683 centers are taking away farmland. And also because 173 00:08:36,750 --> 00:08:40,153 there's a push from Democrats to have 174 00:08:40,220 --> 00:08:43,090 sustainable energy, be sort of the backbone of data 175 00:08:43,156 --> 00:08:45,425 centers. He's also now kind of using it as a one, two, 176 00:08:45,492 --> 00:08:47,661 three punch of they're trying to take farmland, 177 00:08:47,728 --> 00:08:50,330 not just to create data centers, but also to create 178 00:08:50,397 --> 00:08:52,566 wind farms and solar farms. And so he can kind of 179 00:08:52,633 --> 00:08:55,469 package it together in all of these things that will 180 00:08:55,536 --> 00:08:57,337 speak to Republican voters. Democrats obviously, like 181 00:08:57,404 --> 00:08:59,439 solar, like wind farms. And so they'll have more of 182 00:08:59,506 --> 00:09:02,109 their work cut out for them to kind of distinguish 183 00:09:02,176 --> 00:09:05,279 those issues. seeing some social media 184 00:09:05,345 --> 00:09:08,582 appearances from Tom and he's kind of framing it 185 00:09:08,649 --> 00:09:11,385 as data centers versus farmland. It's maybe like a 186 00:09:11,451 --> 00:09:13,687 pretty transparent appeal to rural voters in that 187 00:09:13,754 --> 00:09:15,455 instance. >> It's doing so many 188 00:09:15,522 --> 00:09:17,658 things at the same time because it is about his 189 00:09:17,724 --> 00:09:19,993 base and rural farmland. One of his earliest ads 190 00:09:20,060 --> 00:09:23,363 months ago talked about how to prevent foreign 191 00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:25,732 countries from coming in and buying up our farmland, 192 00:09:25,799 --> 00:09:27,868 which is an issue that does concern people that are 193 00:09:27,935 --> 00:09:30,704 worried about the rising cost of just trying to rent 194 00:09:30,771 --> 00:09:33,707 out a field to put crops in the ground, as we've seen 195 00:09:33,774 --> 00:09:35,342 with all the international tariffs affecting soybean 196 00:09:35,409 --> 00:09:38,078 and corn farmers, they're looking for someone to 197 00:09:38,145 --> 00:09:40,747 blame. And if they're some of the cognitive dissonance 198 00:09:40,814 --> 00:09:43,283 for them is they don't want to blame Donald Trump. I've 199 00:09:43,350 --> 00:09:45,352 interviewed them, and they don't really want to blame 200 00:09:45,419 --> 00:09:47,588 him and his decisions. So if they Tom Tiffany says, 201 00:09:47,654 --> 00:09:50,390 well, it's not his fault. It's over here. This is who 202 00:09:50,457 --> 00:09:52,559 you blame for your rising costs. Well, they're more 203 00:09:52,626 --> 00:09:55,362 than happy to follow along if they're if they're in 204 00:09:55,429 --> 00:09:57,431 that inclination to begin with. So it's definitely a 205 00:09:57,497 --> 00:10:00,734 way to do that. But what's another element that's 206 00:10:00,801 --> 00:10:04,638 trying to split off those Hong voters from David 207 00:10:04,705 --> 00:10:07,641 Crowley and split the left, because we've seen 208 00:10:07,708 --> 00:10:09,776 elections where the far left and progressive left 209 00:10:09,843 --> 00:10:12,646 have sat out. Maybe not in huge numbers, but enough 210 00:10:12,713 --> 00:10:14,915 numbers where potentially it does swing an election. 211 00:10:14,982 --> 00:10:17,251 We saw that with Hillary Clinton. We saw that with 212 00:10:17,317 --> 00:10:19,453 Kamala Harris, and they're trying to repeat that 213 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,256 pattern with David Crowley. If they can paint him as 214 00:10:22,322 --> 00:10:25,626 more moderate, more corporate and less true, 215 00:10:25,692 --> 00:10:28,795 far left than some of those voters may go third party 216 00:10:28,862 --> 00:10:30,831 or just set out together. And that's one of the 217 00:10:30,898 --> 00:10:33,534 concerns, is he has to watch his flank, even 218 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,669 though he won by being in the center. 219 00:10:35,736 --> 00:10:37,738 >> That's definitely an open question for me, 220 00:10:37,804 --> 00:10:39,740 especially because you at least get the impression 221 00:10:39,806 --> 00:10:42,809 that a lot of Hong voters are maybe not a politics 222 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:45,779 first kind of voter. You know, they came to her 223 00:10:45,846 --> 00:10:48,549 because she spoke to them in different ways, more of 224 00:10:48,615 --> 00:10:52,052 a movement candidate. She would not want to identify 225 00:10:52,119 --> 00:10:54,388 with Donald Trump, but a movement candidate in that 226 00:10:54,454 --> 00:10:57,291 way. You get different people into the political 227 00:10:57,357 --> 00:11:00,561 arena. And, you know, one question that I think some 228 00:11:00,627 --> 00:11:03,397 of them had during the primary was, why don't more 229 00:11:03,463 --> 00:11:06,500 Democrats just say what Francesca Hong is saying? 230 00:11:06,567 --> 00:11:08,702 We're going to have a moratorium on data centers. 231 00:11:08,769 --> 00:11:10,871 I like the sounds of that. Why wouldn't David Crowley 232 00:11:10,938 --> 00:11:13,640 Ana just say, hey, let's let's put the brakes on 233 00:11:13,707 --> 00:11:16,343 these. And this data center issue is all taken care of 234 00:11:16,410 --> 00:11:18,512 for me politically. >> Well, politically 235 00:11:18,579 --> 00:11:20,614 speaking, data centers are not popular. The vast 236 00:11:20,681 --> 00:11:22,816 majority of voters, Democrats and Republicans, 237 00:11:22,883 --> 00:11:25,152 don't support data centers, or they certainly don't 238 00:11:25,219 --> 00:11:27,254 support them sort of coming into their own communities. 239 00:11:27,321 --> 00:11:30,257 But there is a real kind of question around the types 240 00:11:30,324 --> 00:11:32,926 of jobs that they can bring in, the kind of economic 241 00:11:32,993 --> 00:11:34,928 development possibilities there. And so I think like 242 00:11:34,995 --> 00:11:38,065 as a politician, you don't necessarily want to say, 243 00:11:38,131 --> 00:11:40,501 you know, categorically, I will not support a thing 244 00:11:40,567 --> 00:11:42,836 that could be a driver of economic growth, especially 245 00:11:42,903 --> 00:11:45,339 in some of these kind of hard hit places in 246 00:11:45,405 --> 00:11:48,675 Wisconsin that are kind of hurting for economic 247 00:11:48,742 --> 00:11:52,646 opportunities. You know, is that a lot of the the 248 00:11:52,713 --> 00:11:55,949 data center, a lot of the unions that Bakke David 249 00:11:56,016 --> 00:11:59,086 Crowley are involved in data center construction. 250 00:11:59,152 --> 00:12:01,889 And so one of the things that he has said is that, 251 00:12:01,955 --> 00:12:04,091 you know, again, if a local community wants a data 252 00:12:04,157 --> 00:12:07,060 center, one of the things that he would want to see 253 00:12:07,127 --> 00:12:10,063 is that it has to be union built. That gets you union 254 00:12:10,130 --> 00:12:12,900 support. And unions are a pretty big part of how the 255 00:12:12,966 --> 00:12:15,035 Democratic Party defines itself as being a party of 256 00:12:15,102 --> 00:12:17,938 the unions. And unions are a pretty big part of how 257 00:12:18,005 --> 00:12:20,140 Republicans have started to kind of make huge inroads 258 00:12:20,207 --> 00:12:22,609 with working people. So the union question, I think, is 259 00:12:22,676 --> 00:12:24,678 an untapped and unanswered one so far. 260 00:12:24,745 --> 00:12:28,048 >> Look for reporting from Murv Seymour on what 261 00:12:28,115 --> 00:12:31,018 community members think about data centers. That's 262 00:12:31,084 --> 00:12:34,755 next Friday on this program. In other state news, the UW 263 00:12:34,821 --> 00:12:37,758 system is trying to make a deal with the state 264 00:12:37,824 --> 00:12:40,794 legislature. Under the plan announced this week by the 265 00:12:40,861 --> 00:12:44,064 UW Board of Regents, tuition at state public 266 00:12:44,131 --> 00:12:47,634 universities would be frozen for the 2729 267 00:12:47,701 --> 00:12:50,671 biennium. If the state legislature agrees to 268 00:12:50,737 --> 00:12:55,442 invest $190 million in the Universities of Wisconsin 269 00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:58,912 system. Also part of the deal, UW campuses would 270 00:12:58,979 --> 00:13:02,482 promise to cap tuition at the rate of inflation for 271 00:13:02,549 --> 00:13:05,652 two years following the tuition freeze. The Board 272 00:13:05,719 --> 00:13:09,356 of Regents also announced a new program called 273 00:13:09,423 --> 00:13:12,326 Wisconsin Work and Learn. It would eliminate tuition 274 00:13:12,392 --> 00:13:15,462 for in-state residents, students whose families 275 00:13:15,529 --> 00:13:19,032 earn at or below the median household income. In 276 00:13:19,099 --> 00:13:21,235 exchange, students would have to commit to taking 277 00:13:21,301 --> 00:13:24,905 part in work, internship or apprenticeship programs. 278 00:13:24,972 --> 00:13:27,908 Board of Regents President Kyle Weatherly said these 279 00:13:27,975 --> 00:13:30,944 two proposals will make Wisconsin public 280 00:13:31,011 --> 00:13:33,480 universities more financially attractive to 281 00:13:33,547 --> 00:13:36,416 students. >> Together, these 282 00:13:36,483 --> 00:13:39,152 proposals would make the University of Wisconsin the 283 00:13:39,219 --> 00:13:41,722 most affordable in the Midwest. They would provide 284 00:13:41,788 --> 00:13:44,258 families with greater certainty, remove financial 285 00:13:44,324 --> 00:13:47,194 barriers for thousands of students, and reaffirm 286 00:13:47,261 --> 00:13:49,930 Wisconsin's long standing belief that talent and hard 287 00:13:49,997 --> 00:13:52,833 work, not financial circumstances, should 288 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:56,470 determine a student's opportunity to succeed. 289 00:13:56,537 --> 00:14:00,874 >> We should note that PBS Wisconsin is a part of 290 00:14:00,941 --> 00:14:03,277 UW-Madison. Trying to make college more affordable 291 00:14:03,343 --> 00:14:06,947 could help the problem of student loan defaults. 292 00:14:07,014 --> 00:14:09,750 Thousands of people across Wisconsin are not keeping 293 00:14:09,816 --> 00:14:13,353 up with repayment of student loans, according to 294 00:14:13,420 --> 00:14:16,990 Wisconsin Watch, more than 100,000, or 15% of 295 00:14:17,057 --> 00:14:20,327 borrowers in the state carry loans that are in 296 00:14:20,394 --> 00:14:24,464 default, having not made a payment in 360 days. What 297 00:14:24,531 --> 00:14:27,467 kind of a bellwether is this for the overall 298 00:14:27,534 --> 00:14:31,004 economy, and what's the consequence? We turn to Jay 299 00:14:31,071 --> 00:14:33,974 Michael Collins, a consumer finance expert and 300 00:14:34,041 --> 00:14:36,043 professor at the La Follette School of Public 301 00:14:36,109 --> 00:14:37,811 Affairs. And thanks very much for being here. 302 00:14:37,878 --> 00:14:40,614 >> Thanks for having me. >> So what kind of a marker 303 00:14:40,681 --> 00:14:43,450 are student loan defaults for larger economic 304 00:14:43,517 --> 00:14:45,786 struggles? >> I mean, it is a little 305 00:14:45,853 --> 00:14:48,689 bit of a canary in the coal mine because if you think 306 00:14:48,755 --> 00:14:50,791 about it, many people who have student loans also 307 00:14:50,858 --> 00:14:52,893 have credit card loans. They might have mortgages, 308 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,895 auto loans. These are the loans that they probably 309 00:14:54,962 --> 00:14:57,064 have delayed on making payments on. So once they 310 00:14:57,130 --> 00:15:00,100 get behind on these loans, there could be a cascade 311 00:15:00,167 --> 00:15:02,169 where they get fall behind on their credit card loans 312 00:15:02,236 --> 00:15:05,072 and other kinds of loans. So it is it is something 313 00:15:05,138 --> 00:15:07,107 that's very concerning. >> How predictable is it 314 00:15:07,174 --> 00:15:10,711 that people who hold potentially hefty student 315 00:15:10,777 --> 00:15:13,514 loans wouldn't be able to repay them once the Biden 316 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:17,184 era help kind of phased out? >> There's a lot of 317 00:15:17,251 --> 00:15:19,620 different things going on. I mean, the Biden era help 318 00:15:19,686 --> 00:15:22,456 was also with the pandemic. And so there was this long 319 00:15:22,523 --> 00:15:24,391 period where no payments were required, almost three 320 00:15:24,458 --> 00:15:26,560 years. So now borrowers have to get back in the 321 00:15:26,627 --> 00:15:29,062 habit of making payments again. Simultaneously, 322 00:15:29,129 --> 00:15:31,465 though, we change the rules, meaning the federal 323 00:15:31,532 --> 00:15:34,168 government changed the rules. And so even a 324 00:15:34,234 --> 00:15:36,537 conscientious borrower is going to have a hard time 325 00:15:36,603 --> 00:15:38,739 when the payment plans are changing, when they're 326 00:15:38,805 --> 00:15:41,308 getting opted into plans, if they don't take an 327 00:15:41,375 --> 00:15:43,544 action. So that's made it really hard, I think, for 328 00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:46,380 people to try to keep up with what the current rules 329 00:15:46,446 --> 00:15:48,248 and regulations are. >> What's an example of how 330 00:15:48,315 --> 00:15:50,417 payments might have ballooned when these 331 00:15:50,484 --> 00:15:53,520 favorable repayment plans went away? 332 00:15:53,587 --> 00:15:56,523 >> I mean, one of the examples is we had at one 333 00:15:56,590 --> 00:15:58,725 point in time, we had probably too many different 334 00:15:58,792 --> 00:16:01,261 repayment plans that people could opt into. But the 335 00:16:01,328 --> 00:16:04,464 sort of standard plan today would result in borrowers 336 00:16:04,531 --> 00:16:06,533 who were in a repayment plan before seeing their 337 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,436 payments go up at least $500 a month. So that's a 338 00:16:09,503 --> 00:16:11,972 big, big shift, especially when they were maybe paying 339 00:16:12,039 --> 00:16:15,542 very little during the Covid period. Other plans, 340 00:16:15,609 --> 00:16:18,412 you actually have to take action to step up and get 341 00:16:18,478 --> 00:16:21,815 to your servicer. That means standing in, standing 342 00:16:21,882 --> 00:16:24,718 in a virtual line for the phone or otherwise trying 343 00:16:24,785 --> 00:16:27,020 to get reach them. And it's been really hard. There's a 344 00:16:27,087 --> 00:16:29,790 big backlog to try to get access to that help that 345 00:16:29,857 --> 00:16:33,093 you need. for people who actually go 346 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,431 into default on these loans? >> The the big issue with 347 00:16:37,497 --> 00:16:39,533 student loans, unlike almost all other forms of 348 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:41,768 debt, is these are unsecured loans and they 349 00:16:41,835 --> 00:16:45,005 don't go away in bankruptcy. So you have to pay them 350 00:16:45,072 --> 00:16:47,741 back. If you don't, your wages will be garnished. 351 00:16:47,808 --> 00:16:49,510 Even your Social Security could be garnished as you 352 00:16:49,576 --> 00:16:52,646 get older. So there really is no recourse but to pay 353 00:16:52,713 --> 00:16:55,182 these loans back. Most of the new payment plans are 354 00:16:55,249 --> 00:16:57,618 actually stretching payments now over 30 years. 355 00:16:57,684 --> 00:17:00,320 So that's quite a long time to have that burden of 356 00:17:00,387 --> 00:17:02,589 payments that you have to take care of. 357 00:17:02,656 --> 00:17:05,959 >> Meanwhile, consumer spending ticked down this 358 00:17:06,026 --> 00:17:09,062 summer and job numbers were revised down. How was the 359 00:17:09,129 --> 00:17:12,399 rate of inflation, the higher cost of things 360 00:17:12,466 --> 00:17:14,701 dragging down the economy amidst all of the rest of 361 00:17:14,768 --> 00:17:16,503 what. >> We've talked? I mean, 362 00:17:16,570 --> 00:17:18,906 the surveys of consumer sentiment that the 363 00:17:18,972 --> 00:17:21,074 University of Michigan and other places do are all 364 00:17:21,141 --> 00:17:23,777 ticking downwards. People seem troubled. I think, you 365 00:17:23,844 --> 00:17:26,180 know, if you look at the inflation numbers, it's not 366 00:17:26,246 --> 00:17:28,682 terrible outside of particularly oil. But what 367 00:17:28,749 --> 00:17:31,151 people really feel like is that their wages aren't 368 00:17:31,218 --> 00:17:33,687 keeping up. In other words, the the paycheck is not 369 00:17:33,754 --> 00:17:36,356 going up as much as prices for everything else. And so 370 00:17:36,423 --> 00:17:38,625 in lots of surveys, people think that they will 371 00:17:38,692 --> 00:17:40,627 actually their budget will be worse off this year 372 00:17:40,694 --> 00:17:42,996 because their raises and their income won't match 373 00:17:43,063 --> 00:17:45,532 their cost of living. And so that's really that 374 00:17:45,599 --> 00:17:47,701 squeeze that people are feeling and making it hard 375 00:17:47,768 --> 00:17:49,736 to keep up with everything, including student loans. 376 00:17:49,803 --> 00:17:53,340 >> And meanwhile, you also say that September 4th is a 377 00:17:53,407 --> 00:17:56,176 day that people will be looking ahead to why. 378 00:17:56,243 --> 00:17:58,145 >> Right now, the information that we have, 379 00:17:58,212 --> 00:18:00,614 the data we have is pretty mixed. So consumer 380 00:18:00,681 --> 00:18:04,251 sentiment seems kind of weak. You know, inflation 381 00:18:04,318 --> 00:18:06,520 numbers, like a lot of the numbers are just kind of 382 00:18:06,587 --> 00:18:09,423 very middling. And so it's hard to look at the numbers 383 00:18:09,489 --> 00:18:11,425 and draw any conclusions. But the last jobs report, 384 00:18:11,491 --> 00:18:13,560 as you mentioned, was pretty negative. And so 385 00:18:13,627 --> 00:18:16,330 this next jobs report will really tell us if this is a 386 00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:19,266 trend, if we see another really weak jobs report 387 00:18:19,333 --> 00:18:21,235 that suggests that places aren't hiring, maybe places 388 00:18:21,301 --> 00:18:23,504 are even letting people go. We worry about what this 389 00:18:23,570 --> 00:18:25,806 fall might look like in terms of higher 390 00:18:25,873 --> 00:18:27,908 unemployment as well. >> Speaking of that, the 391 00:18:27,975 --> 00:18:30,777 economy polls as a key election issue, as it 392 00:18:30,844 --> 00:18:34,014 always does. What is it like out there for the 393 00:18:34,081 --> 00:18:37,084 average voter in Wisconsin kind of heading into the 394 00:18:37,150 --> 00:18:39,486 midterms? >> Yeah. I mean, this 395 00:18:39,553 --> 00:18:42,089 anxiety that people feel, this worry, that people 396 00:18:42,155 --> 00:18:44,591 feel they take it out in lots of different ways. And 397 00:18:44,658 --> 00:18:47,294 so one of those ways is the government isn't doing it 398 00:18:47,361 --> 00:18:50,664 for me. And so I think this will particularly be hard 399 00:18:50,731 --> 00:18:53,967 for any incumbent, particularly anybody who's 400 00:18:54,034 --> 00:18:56,036 associated with the current administration, is going to 401 00:18:56,103 --> 00:18:58,205 have to sort of make an argument that they didn't 402 00:18:58,272 --> 00:19:00,741 contribute to the problems. It's not clear that what 403 00:19:00,807 --> 00:19:03,210 any politician can do, in the light of the current 404 00:19:03,277 --> 00:19:06,747 economic, economic situation, but it certainly 405 00:19:06,813 --> 00:19:09,383 is making voters very anxious and perhaps a 406 00:19:09,449 --> 00:19:11,185 little bit rebellious in their votes this year. 407 00:19:11,251 --> 00:19:13,520 >> And your crystal ball would suggest that 408 00:19:13,587 --> 00:19:18,192 potentially it won't get better before November. 409 00:19:18,258 --> 00:19:21,795 >> The numbers have shown us, if anything, more 410 00:19:21,862 --> 00:19:24,097 negative signals than positive signals. So maybe 411 00:19:24,164 --> 00:19:27,668 things won't be getting as worse as the worst case 412 00:19:27,734 --> 00:19:29,436 scenario, but it looks very unlikely it's going to get 413 00:19:29,503 --> 00:19:31,672 a lot better. >> All right. Well, thank 414 00:19:31,738 --> 00:19:36,677 you for your insights, J. Michael Collins. Finally 415 00:19:36,743 --> 00:19:39,479 tonight, you've probably driven past one but may not 416 00:19:39,546 --> 00:19:43,317 have noticed it. Automated license plate readers or 417 00:19:43,383 --> 00:19:46,753 alpr cameras are small and usually found near 418 00:19:46,820 --> 00:19:49,823 stoplights and street signs on roads and intersections 419 00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:53,393 across the country. These cameras have grown in 420 00:19:53,460 --> 00:19:55,896 popularity and in controversy over recent 421 00:19:55,963 --> 00:19:58,065 years. Here and now reporter Steven Potter 422 00:19:58,131 --> 00:20:02,169 looked into their use around Wisconsin. 423 00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:05,739 >> There's nothing flashy about Alpr cameras, and 424 00:20:05,806 --> 00:20:08,942 that's on purpose. These automated license plate 425 00:20:09,009 --> 00:20:11,912 reading devices sit inconspicuously, usually on 426 00:20:11,979 --> 00:20:15,249 a pole and under a solar panel. They automatically 427 00:20:15,315 --> 00:20:17,718 read your license plate and retain an image of your car 428 00:20:17,784 --> 00:20:20,854 with a date and a time stamp of when you went past 429 00:20:20,921 --> 00:20:24,858 it. That information and image is then sent off to 430 00:20:24,925 --> 00:20:27,761 the law enforcement agency that contracted with the 431 00:20:27,828 --> 00:20:30,731 company that operates the cameras. They're commonly 432 00:20:30,797 --> 00:20:33,834 called flock cameras, after the most popular brand that 433 00:20:33,901 --> 00:20:36,770 makes and deploys the devices according to groups 434 00:20:36,837 --> 00:20:40,607 that track them. There are an estimated 130,000 such 435 00:20:40,674 --> 00:20:44,711 cameras in the United States. In Wisconsin, it's 436 00:20:44,778 --> 00:20:47,414 estimated there are as many as 2000 of the cameras used 437 00:20:47,481 --> 00:20:50,784 by more than 200 law enforcement agencies. But 438 00:20:50,851 --> 00:20:53,220 over the last couple of years, flock and other 439 00:20:53,287 --> 00:20:55,455 similar companies have been catching flak from 440 00:20:55,522 --> 00:20:58,725 opponents concerned about privacy, calling them tools 441 00:20:58,792 --> 00:21:01,828 of mass surveillance that operate without a warrant. 442 00:21:01,895 --> 00:21:04,431 Critics say the cameras invade an individual's 443 00:21:04,498 --> 00:21:07,568 privacy before and without prior knowledge of any 444 00:21:07,634 --> 00:21:10,470 crime being committed. Groups like the American 445 00:21:10,537 --> 00:21:13,607 Civil Liberties Union calls the cameras creepy and says 446 00:21:13,674 --> 00:21:17,444 that the storage of images and information in national 447 00:21:17,511 --> 00:21:20,314 databases lacks regulation. Opposition to the cameras 448 00:21:20,380 --> 00:21:23,217 is showing up in Wisconsin, with reports of them being 449 00:21:23,283 --> 00:21:26,486 vandalized and taken down. And many governments around 450 00:21:26,553 --> 00:21:29,857 Wisconsin are taking action against them. So far, Dane 451 00:21:29,923 --> 00:21:32,793 County, as well as cities such as Fitchburg, 452 00:21:32,860 --> 00:21:35,729 Stoughton, Monona and others, have stopped, 453 00:21:35,796 --> 00:21:38,398 canceled or not renewed contracts with the Flock 454 00:21:38,465 --> 00:21:41,502 Safety Company. And in the city of Verona, officials 455 00:21:41,568 --> 00:21:44,071 put bags over the flock cameras after the company 456 00:21:44,137 --> 00:21:47,207 didn't move fast enough to remove them. The largest 457 00:21:47,274 --> 00:21:50,177 user of flock cameras in Wisconsin is the City of 458 00:21:50,244 --> 00:21:53,113 Milwaukee Police Department. Cases of misuse of the 459 00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:55,782 technology by people with access to the cameras are 460 00:21:55,849 --> 00:21:58,352 also cropping up. In mid-August, a Menasha 461 00:21:58,418 --> 00:22:00,888 police officer was sentenced for using flock 462 00:22:00,954 --> 00:22:03,757 cameras for illegal surveillance, and two 463 00:22:03,824 --> 00:22:06,693 Milwaukee police officers have been criminally 464 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,663 charged with illegally tracking people using the 465 00:22:09,730 --> 00:22:11,999 cameras. Those who are in favor of these cameras and 466 00:22:12,065 --> 00:22:15,102 tracking devices say they are an invaluable law 467 00:22:15,169 --> 00:22:17,704 enforcement tool that helps apprehend those who commit 468 00:22:17,771 --> 00:22:21,141 crimes of all kinds, ranging from driving 469 00:22:21,208 --> 00:22:24,478 infractions to car theft and more serious offenses. 470 00:22:24,545 --> 00:22:27,748 The topic of flock and alpr cameras came up in the most 471 00:22:27,814 --> 00:22:31,185 recent episode of In Focus with Murv Seymour, where he 472 00:22:31,251 --> 00:22:34,421 interviewed former Madison police chief Noble Rae. 473 00:22:34,488 --> 00:22:38,492 >> Where it becomes a question is proactively how 474 00:22:38,559 --> 00:22:42,496 it is used. So if I'm using this information and then I 475 00:22:42,563 --> 00:22:47,334 act on it, even if you have not committed a crime right 476 00:22:47,401 --> 00:22:50,671 then and there I go, knock on your door and say, hey, 477 00:22:50,737 --> 00:22:53,907 you came through this, this intersection at such and 478 00:22:53,974 --> 00:22:57,010 such date and time. This is a potential. And based upon 479 00:22:57,077 --> 00:23:00,447 the information we have, you have a warrant for your 480 00:23:00,514 --> 00:23:04,284 arrest. So people ask those questions or you, you, you 481 00:23:04,351 --> 00:23:08,388 were here and you're being surveilled. Now people 482 00:23:08,455 --> 00:23:11,525 complain about the issues of privacy. 483 00:23:11,592 --> 00:23:13,227 >> And what's done with that information once it's 484 00:23:13,293 --> 00:23:15,128 gathered, what happens to it at that point? 485 00:23:15,195 --> 00:23:19,433 >> That's that's another issue in the, in, in most 486 00:23:19,499 --> 00:23:24,104 states, information has been historically treated. 487 00:23:24,171 --> 00:23:26,573 And there are laws that govern how long you can 488 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,543 maintain a record. Where does the information go, 489 00:23:29,610 --> 00:23:33,814 who has access to it? So one of the other concerns 490 00:23:33,881 --> 00:23:37,784 that communities need to wrestle with is that if if 491 00:23:37,851 --> 00:23:41,755 a third party has data and information and if the 492 00:23:41,822 --> 00:23:44,825 government has access to that, have they made that 493 00:23:44,892 --> 00:23:48,328 third party become a de facto part of the 494 00:23:48,395 --> 00:23:51,865 government because they're accessing their information? 495 00:23:51,932 --> 00:23:54,568 But where is that stored? What information do they 496 00:23:54,635 --> 00:23:58,272 have on you? Don't you have a right to know what your 497 00:23:58,338 --> 00:24:01,875 government has on you? These are questions that 498 00:24:01,942 --> 00:24:03,577 communities really do need to wrestle with. 499 00:24:03,644 --> 00:24:07,648 >> Yeah. And we and we know that some law enforcement 500 00:24:07,714 --> 00:24:10,150 agencies, departments around the state have been 501 00:24:10,217 --> 00:24:12,386 moving away from that system. Why do you think 502 00:24:12,452 --> 00:24:15,155 it's so controversial and why would they move away 503 00:24:15,222 --> 00:24:19,593 from it? You think? >> I think first of all, I 504 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:24,464 think it was developed in many instances to improve 505 00:24:25,766 --> 00:24:28,202 public safety. I'm not going to conclude that that 506 00:24:28,268 --> 00:24:32,940 was not the reason. But I think that right now we're 507 00:24:34,408 --> 00:24:39,313 behind the curve. We are behind the curve because we 508 00:24:39,379 --> 00:24:44,084 have not, as a community provided what what they 509 00:24:44,151 --> 00:24:47,721 should be used for, what are the standards, what are 510 00:24:47,788 --> 00:24:52,259 the standards of privacy that that community accepts? 511 00:24:52,326 --> 00:24:55,229 How should the police department use it? Some 512 00:24:55,295 --> 00:24:57,798 communities have gone, and what they've done is that 513 00:24:57,865 --> 00:25:01,401 they've pulled together stakeholders and they've 514 00:25:01,468 --> 00:25:05,639 discussed from every every branch they pull together 515 00:25:05,706 --> 00:25:09,543 people that are, you know, community members, civil 516 00:25:09,610 --> 00:25:11,778 liberties they've pulled together, people that are 517 00:25:11,845 --> 00:25:16,483 subject matter experts, the manufacturers, and they 518 00:25:16,550 --> 00:25:20,454 broad guidelines. And then the community starts to lay 519 00:25:20,521 --> 00:25:24,491 out for law enforcement. Here's some policies, here 520 00:25:24,558 --> 00:25:27,628 are some procedures, here are some ordinances that we 521 00:25:27,694 --> 00:25:30,864 think would work. And they all have to be constantly 522 00:25:30,931 --> 00:25:34,401 improved. But right now we're behind the eight ball 523 00:25:34,468 --> 00:25:37,938 because we have not done that. And so we're we're 524 00:25:38,005 --> 00:25:40,641 reaching for this technology before we know 525 00:25:40,707 --> 00:25:43,644 its total impact and we're using it before we know the 526 00:25:43,710 --> 00:25:47,381 total impact. >> For full episodes of In 527 00:25:48,615 --> 00:25:52,853 Focus with Murv Seymour and Inside Wisconsin Politics, 528 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,390 plus more of our reporting on issues facing Wisconsin, 529 00:25:56,456 --> 00:26:00,060 visit our website at PBS wisconsin.org. That's our 530 00:26:00,127 --> 00:26:02,229 program for tonight. I'm Frederica Freyberg. Have a 531 00:26:02,296 --> 00:26:03,964 good weekend. 532 00:26:42,903 --> 00:26:45,439 >> Funding for "Here& Now" is provided by the Focus 533 00:26:45,506 --> 00:26:50,177 Fund for Journalism and friends of PBS Wisconsin.