1
00:00:02,202 --> 00:00:05,839
>> The following program is
a PBS Wisconsin original

2
00:00:05,906 --> 00:00:08,976
production.
>> With an eye toward the

3
00:00:09,042 --> 00:00:12,579
midterms. President Trump
is again setting his sights

4
00:00:12,646 --> 00:00:17,484
on how states run elections
and a gas leak reopens.

5
00:00:17,551 --> 00:00:20,254
Safety concerns for a
controversial pipeline.

6
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,323
[MUSIC]
I'm Frederica Freyberg.

7
00:00:23,390 --> 00:00:27,227
Tonight on "Here& Now",
with a hard push to oversee

8
00:00:27,294 --> 00:00:30,364
state elections, we ask an
expert about renewed

9
00:00:30,430 --> 00:00:34,701
federal efforts to
intervene. The Wisconsin

10
00:00:34,768 --> 00:00:38,071
DNR secretary joins us for
the latest on the Enbridge

11
00:00:38,138 --> 00:00:41,408
Line five gas spill. The
newest report on the state

12
00:00:41,475 --> 00:00:44,945
of working Wisconsin and
the fight over farmland

13
00:00:45,012 --> 00:00:49,483
being used for wind and
solar. It's "Here& Now" for

14
00:00:49,550 --> 00:00:52,186
September 4th.
>> Funding for Here and Now

15
00:00:52,252 --> 00:00:55,389
is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

16
00:00:55,455 --> 00:01:00,360
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> On multiple fronts, the

17
00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,137
Trump administration is
going hard against

18
00:01:10,204 --> 00:01:13,407
noncitizen voting ahead of
the midterms. There's the

19
00:01:13,473 --> 00:01:16,610
work with the U.S. Postal
Service to send out mail in

20
00:01:16,677 --> 00:01:20,080
ballots only to voters on
state citizenship lists.

21
00:01:20,147 --> 00:01:22,850
There's a purported U.S.
Census Bureau report

22
00:01:22,916 --> 00:01:26,153
claiming that 500
noncitizens voted in

23
00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:29,456
Wisconsin in the 2020
election, and a new

24
00:01:29,523 --> 00:01:32,392
Department of Homeland
Security investigative

25
00:01:32,459 --> 00:01:36,663
surge in states including
Wisconsin, to prosecute

26
00:01:36,730 --> 00:01:39,466
noncitizen voting. And yet,
Wisconsin election

27
00:01:39,533 --> 00:01:42,436
officials describe
noncitizen voting as

28
00:01:42,503 --> 00:01:46,073
vanishingly rare because
it's already illegal.

29
00:01:46,139 --> 00:01:49,543
What's going on? We turn to
Marquette University

30
00:01:49,610 --> 00:01:51,945
professor of political
Science Philip Rocco. And

31
00:01:52,012 --> 00:01:54,081
thanks very much for being
here.

32
00:01:54,147 --> 00:01:57,017
>> Good to be with you.
>> So as to that question,

33
00:01:57,084 --> 00:02:00,053
what is going on?
>> Well, I think what we're

34
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:03,323
seeing is a kind of
multilayered effort by the

35
00:02:03,390 --> 00:02:07,294
Trump administration to
kind of do January 6th

36
00:02:07,361 --> 00:02:11,899
every day to keep alive the
myth that there's

37
00:02:11,965 --> 00:02:15,769
widespread noncitizen
voting to kind of

38
00:02:16,870 --> 00:02:20,741
delegitimize elections. And
it's not just kind of one

39
00:02:20,807 --> 00:02:23,911
instrument or one tool that
they're using to do this.

40
00:02:23,977 --> 00:02:27,548
There's using information
from the Census Bureau,

41
00:02:27,614 --> 00:02:32,085
using enforcement power
from DHS, and using in a in

42
00:02:32,152 --> 00:02:35,556
a really irregular way. The
Postal Service, in an

43
00:02:35,622 --> 00:02:39,059
attempt to to gatekeep who
votes. And so I think what

44
00:02:39,126 --> 00:02:43,397
that tells us is that the
administration is really

45
00:02:43,463 --> 00:02:46,733
hedging its bets, both on
what strategies it thinks

46
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:51,471
it's going to be successful
with, but also what the

47
00:02:53,106 --> 00:02:55,509
outcome, in a way, of all
of these strategies is

48
00:02:55,576 --> 00:02:58,412
going to be. And they're
kind of setting up, I think,

49
00:02:58,478 --> 00:03:00,714
some opportunities for
themselves. If one of the

50
00:03:00,781 --> 00:03:02,649
strategies doesn't work out,
that they can sort of fall

51
00:03:02,716 --> 00:03:04,785
back on another.
>> Should ordinary voters

52
00:03:04,852 --> 00:03:07,254
be concerned about all of
this?

53
00:03:07,321 --> 00:03:10,057
>> Well, I think.
>> It's important to

54
00:03:10,123 --> 00:03:13,193
distinguish being concerned
from being vigilant and

55
00:03:13,260 --> 00:03:15,762
aware of what the facts on
the ground are, right?

56
00:03:15,829 --> 00:03:19,233
State and local officials
are the people who are

57
00:03:19,299 --> 00:03:21,001
responsible for
administering elections in

58
00:03:21,068 --> 00:03:25,072
the United States. The
white House is explicitly

59
00:03:25,138 --> 00:03:28,709
not an entity that is
allowed to do that. The

60
00:03:28,775 --> 00:03:33,113
federal government is is
allowed in in very limited

61
00:03:33,180 --> 00:03:37,117
instances, to play a role
in election administration,

62
00:03:37,184 --> 00:03:40,187
but not the things that are
happening now. And so the

63
00:03:40,254 --> 00:03:42,556
information on on how
elections are going to run,

64
00:03:42,623 --> 00:03:45,425
how they're going to work
comes from state and local

65
00:03:45,492 --> 00:03:47,561
officials. And in a way,
that's the important. Those

66
00:03:47,628 --> 00:03:50,364
are the important people to,
to be listening to and to

67
00:03:50,430 --> 00:03:53,233
make a plan to vote is, is
really important. So I

68
00:03:53,300 --> 00:03:57,237
think to be aware, to be
vigilant, but not to be

69
00:03:57,304 --> 00:04:01,175
sort of dismayed simply by
looking at what's happening

70
00:04:01,241 --> 00:04:04,178
in Washington, but knowing
that that that the

71
00:04:04,244 --> 00:04:07,114
authority at the state and
local level.

72
00:04:07,181 --> 00:04:11,485
>> So the Census Bureau
report showed 24,000

73
00:04:11,552 --> 00:04:15,289
noncitizens voted
nationwide in 2020, and 500

74
00:04:15,355 --> 00:04:17,691
in Wisconsin. What was your
reaction when you saw that

75
00:04:17,758 --> 00:04:20,627
Census Bureau report?
>> Well.

76
00:04:20,694 --> 00:04:24,531
>> My reaction was that it
didn't show that at all. We,

77
00:04:24,598 --> 00:04:28,101
the Census Bureau's own
research has time and time

78
00:04:28,168 --> 00:04:32,372
again done record matching
studies of this kind and

79
00:04:32,439 --> 00:04:35,976
found false positives. In
other words, purported

80
00:04:36,043 --> 00:04:38,879
matches that weren't
matches at all between two

81
00:04:38,946 --> 00:04:43,617
different lists of of
individuals in excess of 6%

82
00:04:43,684 --> 00:04:46,587
of the sample. And what we
see here is a number of

83
00:04:46,653 --> 00:04:49,656
people who are alleged to
be non-citizen voters. That

84
00:04:49,723 --> 00:04:52,593
is far smaller than that.
And so really, you can't

85
00:04:52,659 --> 00:04:55,095
distinguish what the Census
Bureau, if indeed the

86
00:04:55,162 --> 00:04:57,664
Census Bureau did this
research, which is in doubt

87
00:04:57,731 --> 00:05:01,969
itself, found from no
statistical evidence at all.

88
00:05:02,035 --> 00:05:04,872
>> So there's also the
process being developed by

89
00:05:04,938 --> 00:05:08,075
the Postal Service to send
ballots and envelopes with

90
00:05:08,141 --> 00:05:10,844
barcodes showing recipients
are on state citizenship

91
00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:13,714
lists. I know Wisconsin
officials say the new

92
00:05:13,780 --> 00:05:16,316
system is nowhere near
ready, in ballots are

93
00:05:16,383 --> 00:05:19,786
already being sent out.
Will this disrupt the

94
00:05:19,853 --> 00:05:22,456
midterm elections?
Potentially including in

95
00:05:22,523 --> 00:05:24,925
Wisconsin?
>> Well, I think.

96
00:05:24,992 --> 00:05:29,296
>> That if the courts are
not successful in stopping

97
00:05:29,363 --> 00:05:33,634
this process from going
forward, and I think we

98
00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:37,905
have some indications to
think that it's going to be

99
00:05:37,971 --> 00:05:40,541
difficult for the Postal
Service to to play this

100
00:05:40,607 --> 00:05:45,045
role, if not legally, then
certainly operationally, it

101
00:05:45,112 --> 00:05:48,715
it is a really heavy
operational lift that they

102
00:05:48,782 --> 00:05:51,652
are trying to pull off in a
very short amount of time.

103
00:05:51,718 --> 00:05:56,190
But I do worry about chaos
and I worry about it not

104
00:05:57,424 --> 00:05:59,860
only because that that's
what might play out, but

105
00:05:59,927 --> 00:06:03,363
also because how the the
appearance or image of

106
00:06:03,430 --> 00:06:06,033
chaos can make it
potentially easier for the

107
00:06:06,099 --> 00:06:08,468
Trump administration after
the fact. To say that this

108
00:06:08,535 --> 00:06:11,705
wasn't a legitimate
election. And it's very

109
00:06:11,772 --> 00:06:15,943
similar to somebody
lighting a house on fire

110
00:06:16,009 --> 00:06:19,580
and then, you know, saying,
oh, well, this is a this is

111
00:06:19,646 --> 00:06:21,181
a terrible situation when
when they themselves have

112
00:06:21,248 --> 00:06:23,917
caused it.
>> There's the new

113
00:06:25,285 --> 00:06:27,321
investigation into states,
including Wisconsin, on the

114
00:06:27,387 --> 00:06:30,090
part of the Department of
Homeland Security, as we

115
00:06:30,157 --> 00:06:33,393
mentioned. What do you know
about that and what

116
00:06:33,460 --> 00:06:35,295
investigators will be
looking at? And what's your

117
00:06:35,362 --> 00:06:38,398
reaction to that?
>> Well, I think.

118
00:06:38,465 --> 00:06:41,735
>> We don't know very much
about that effort at this

119
00:06:41,802 --> 00:06:46,373
time. It certainly seems to
be an indication that the

120
00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,210
Trump administration, which
has lost time and time

121
00:06:50,277 --> 00:06:52,980
again in federal court
cases, trying to force

122
00:06:53,046 --> 00:06:56,617
states to produce
information that is

123
00:06:57,518 --> 00:07:01,154
protected, information
about individual voters,

124
00:07:01,221 --> 00:07:06,860
personal details, the Trump
administration doesn't seem

125
00:07:06,927 --> 00:07:09,496
abandoning that effort,
simply because courts have

126
00:07:09,563 --> 00:07:12,599
said that it's illegal.
They are now going to use

127
00:07:12,666 --> 00:07:17,437
seemingly every tool in
their toolkit to try to

128
00:07:17,504 --> 00:07:21,575
intimidate state officials
into giving them what they

129
00:07:21,642 --> 00:07:26,213
want. It's kind of an
extortionary activity, but

130
00:07:26,914 --> 00:07:30,651
we don't really know
exactly what these

131
00:07:30,717 --> 00:07:33,120
officials are going to be
looking for and what that

132
00:07:33,187 --> 00:07:37,457
looks like, but I think
it's, you know, another

133
00:07:37,524 --> 00:07:40,327
part of this multi-layered
strategy that we're seeing,

134
00:07:40,394 --> 00:07:43,964
which indicates to me that
the administration doesn't

135
00:07:44,031 --> 00:07:45,832
seem interested in giving
up.

136
00:07:45,899 --> 00:07:47,634
>> All right. We leave it
there. Philip Rocco thank

137
00:07:47,701 --> 00:07:50,037
you so much.
>> Thank you.

138
00:07:51,705 --> 00:07:55,409
>> The Canadian oil and gas
pipeline, the Enbridge Line

139
00:07:55,475 --> 00:07:58,679
five coursing through
native lands in northern

140
00:07:58,745 --> 00:08:02,049
Wisconsin, has been shut
down temporarily due to a

141
00:08:02,115 --> 00:08:05,986
leak discovered last week.
The very eventuality tribal

142
00:08:06,053 --> 00:08:08,589
nations have been sounding
the alarm over in public

143
00:08:08,655 --> 00:08:12,092
and in court.
>> There is always just the

144
00:08:12,159 --> 00:08:15,362
environmental concern, the
structural concern, you

145
00:08:15,429 --> 00:08:20,701
know, and and it's come to
it's come to light now that

146
00:08:20,767 --> 00:08:25,038
they have made, you know,
that they're susceptible to,

147
00:08:25,105 --> 00:08:30,110
you know, to really, really,
really sloppy work. And,

148
00:08:32,045 --> 00:08:35,516
and so our hope, my hope
from, from our

149
00:08:38,018 --> 00:08:41,121
organization's standpoint
is that they take time to

150
00:08:41,188 --> 00:08:45,526
refocus maybe so that there
would be no, no more

151
00:08:46,260 --> 00:08:49,196
accidents like what we've,
what we've experienced.

152
00:08:49,263 --> 00:08:51,999
>> But tribal nations are
not alone in their concerns

153
00:08:52,065 --> 00:08:55,502
over line five, with its
reroute around Bad River

154
00:08:55,569 --> 00:08:57,804
lands, the Wisconsin
Department of Natural

155
00:08:57,871 --> 00:09:01,441
Resources called to halt
work on the project after a

156
00:09:01,508 --> 00:09:03,710
construction truck ruptured
the line, causing more than

157
00:09:03,777 --> 00:09:07,214
a million gallons of
propane and butane to

158
00:09:07,281 --> 00:09:10,317
release into the atmosphere.
For its part, Enbridge says

159
00:09:10,384 --> 00:09:13,453
there was a project wide
safety stand down for

160
00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,989
construction workers,
during which project

161
00:09:16,056 --> 00:09:20,060
leadership reinforced
safety protocols. DNR

162
00:09:20,127 --> 00:09:22,763
Secretary Karen Hyun is
here with latest details,

163
00:09:22,829 --> 00:09:25,432
and thanks very much for
being here.

164
00:09:25,499 --> 00:09:27,467
>> Thanks, Frederica. It's
nice to be with you.

165
00:09:27,534 --> 00:09:29,903
>> So you called on
Enbridge to halt work on

166
00:09:29,970 --> 00:09:32,973
the reroute construction.
And yet, according to the

167
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,576
company, that work has
already resumed. What is

168
00:09:35,642 --> 00:09:39,780
your response to that?
>> Yeah, there are two

169
00:09:40,314 --> 00:09:43,150
separate issues here. Just
wanted to clarify. One is

170
00:09:43,217 --> 00:09:46,954
that there is a an active
incident happening around

171
00:09:47,020 --> 00:09:51,458
Saxon, Wisconsin. We are
still waiting to gain

172
00:09:51,525 --> 00:09:53,827
access to that site. So
that site and the safety of

173
00:09:53,894 --> 00:09:55,929
that site is controlled by
Phmsa, which is the

174
00:09:55,996 --> 00:09:58,198
pipeline, and Hazardous
Materials Safety

175
00:09:58,265 --> 00:10:01,101
Administration. It's the
lead agency at the site,

176
00:10:01,168 --> 00:10:04,805
and we haven't had been
authorized to access that

177
00:10:04,872 --> 00:10:08,408
site, but we're continuing
to monitor the situation as

178
00:10:08,475 --> 00:10:11,245
it develops, and we'll be
ready to be on site as soon

179
00:10:11,311 --> 00:10:14,414
as we can to evaluate the
impacts. There is also the

180
00:10:14,481 --> 00:10:16,817
issue of the relocation
that I think you mentioned

181
00:10:16,884 --> 00:10:20,153
earlier. There have been
several issues of

182
00:10:20,220 --> 00:10:22,389
noncompliance that have
happened where there have

183
00:10:22,456 --> 00:10:24,992
been drilling fluid that's
leaked in the process of

184
00:10:25,058 --> 00:10:27,995
their horizontal drilling
under some of the waterways

185
00:10:28,061 --> 00:10:30,697
as they reroute the
pipeline around the bad

186
00:10:30,764 --> 00:10:36,003
River reservation. I heard
the concerns from and other

187
00:10:36,069 --> 00:10:39,072
tribal nations, and we
share those concerns over

188
00:10:39,139 --> 00:10:42,476
those recent incidents as
well, which is why we asked

189
00:10:42,543 --> 00:10:46,547
for a stand down. And we
continue to have robust

190
00:10:46,613 --> 00:10:49,716
dialog with Enbridge about
how they can increase their

191
00:10:49,783 --> 00:10:51,485
safety and environmental
compliance and compliance

192
00:10:51,552 --> 00:10:54,755
with the permits that we've
issued.

193
00:10:54,821 --> 00:10:57,224
a letter to Enbridge saying
that you are deeply

194
00:10:57,291 --> 00:11:00,127
concerned about the latest
spill and immensely

195
00:11:00,194 --> 00:11:03,430
frustrated by other recent
noncompliant events, and

196
00:11:03,497 --> 00:11:05,933
that you want the company
to demonstrate that

197
00:11:05,999 --> 00:11:08,468
measures are in place to
prevent future spills. Has

198
00:11:08,535 --> 00:11:11,538
the company demonstrated
that.

199
00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:14,775
>> We continue to have
ongoing discussions with

200
00:11:14,842 --> 00:11:17,878
senior leadership at
Enbridge? There were

201
00:11:17,945 --> 00:11:22,049
noncompliance events in the
past few months, and there

202
00:11:22,115 --> 00:11:24,051
continue to be some
noncompliance events, even

203
00:11:24,117 --> 00:11:26,486
after the safety stand down.
So we're continuing to

204
00:11:26,553 --> 00:11:29,756
discuss with them what they
can do to increase their

205
00:11:29,823 --> 00:11:32,392
compliance with the permits
and reduce these frack out

206
00:11:32,459 --> 00:11:34,461
events.
latest leak?

207
00:11:36,263 --> 00:11:38,999
>> There have been barrels
of liquefied natural gas

208
00:11:39,066 --> 00:11:41,468
that have evaporated into
the atmosphere and

209
00:11:41,535 --> 00:11:44,805
volatilized into the
atmosphere, which we have

210
00:11:44,872 --> 00:11:48,675
concerns about. We. So
until we can get into the

211
00:11:48,742 --> 00:11:51,345
site, it's hard for us to
assess what the damage is

212
00:11:51,411 --> 00:11:54,047
to the air and the land and
the waters of the state.

213
00:11:54,114 --> 00:11:58,118
>> What concerns do you
have going forward?

214
00:11:58,919 --> 00:12:01,455
>> Well, first and foremost,
I want to make sure that

215
00:12:01,522 --> 00:12:03,891
our staff and other members
that are entering into this

216
00:12:03,957 --> 00:12:06,493
site are safe, so we have
to make sure that we're

217
00:12:06,560 --> 00:12:09,363
following Phmsa guidelines
and authority in terms of

218
00:12:09,429 --> 00:12:12,633
accessing the site. Once
we're able to get in, we're

219
00:12:12,699 --> 00:12:15,869
going to look at impacts to
the air, to the groundwater,

220
00:12:15,936 --> 00:12:19,273
to the surface water to the
soil, to the sediments, and

221
00:12:19,339 --> 00:12:21,375
see how they might be
impacted by liquefied

222
00:12:21,441 --> 00:12:25,212
natural gas. Enbridge is
the responsible party will

223
00:12:25,279 --> 00:12:27,381
be taking measurements, and
we'll be able to analyze

224
00:12:27,447 --> 00:12:30,217
that data and see what kind
of damages we might need to

225
00:12:30,284 --> 00:12:32,553
assess.
>> How do you feel about

226
00:12:32,619 --> 00:12:35,656
the DNR's role in granting
permits for this project?

227
00:12:35,722 --> 00:12:39,393
In light of your current
deep concerns?

228
00:12:41,328 --> 00:12:44,598
>> We have statutory
authority to issue permits

229
00:12:44,665 --> 00:12:49,770
for things like stormwater,
waterways, wetlands, and

230
00:12:49,837 --> 00:12:51,839
other and other things, but
those are the main ones.

231
00:12:51,905 --> 00:12:56,043
For this. We issued those
permits with a lot of

232
00:12:56,109 --> 00:12:58,612
collaboration and public
input and tribal input.

233
00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,683
Over time, we are going to
hold Enbridge accountable

234
00:13:02,749 --> 00:13:05,319
to the noncompliance events,
particularly the frack outs

235
00:13:05,385 --> 00:13:07,421
that have been happening.
And we want to see

236
00:13:07,487 --> 00:13:09,189
improvements as
construction continues on

237
00:13:09,256 --> 00:13:11,992
the pipeline.
>> Meanwhile, Enbridge

238
00:13:12,059 --> 00:13:15,996
hopes to restore service to
the pipeline that carries

239
00:13:16,063 --> 00:13:18,799
23 million gallons of crude
oil and natural gas by next

240
00:13:18,866 --> 00:13:23,537
week. What is your comfort
with that at this point?

241
00:13:26,507 --> 00:13:28,408
>> Yeah, as I understand it,
because of the actual spill

242
00:13:28,475 --> 00:13:30,577
in Saxon, which is
different than the

243
00:13:30,644 --> 00:13:33,514
noncompliance events I was
talking about earlier, they

244
00:13:33,580 --> 00:13:36,683
have stopped shipping
product across through the

245
00:13:36,750 --> 00:13:40,120
pipeline that goes to
different refineries and

246
00:13:40,187 --> 00:13:44,224
places across the Midwest.
I understand the importance

247
00:13:44,291 --> 00:13:47,928
of being able to provide
that energy source to other

248
00:13:47,995 --> 00:13:50,864
places and other states,
and even to Canada, but we

249
00:13:50,931 --> 00:13:54,501
need to make sure that in
that process, accidents

250
00:13:54,568 --> 00:13:57,004
like this spill, which are
really serious, are taken

251
00:13:57,070 --> 00:14:00,407
seriously and cleaned up to
remediate the environment.

252
00:14:00,474 --> 00:14:03,477
>> All right. We leave it
there. Secretary Karen,

253
00:14:03,544 --> 00:14:06,446
thank you so much.
>> Thank you.

254
00:14:07,314 --> 00:14:10,584
>> The monthly U.S. jobs
report out today shows

255
00:14:10,651 --> 00:14:14,788
encouraging news for the
economy, adding 162,000

256
00:14:14,855 --> 00:14:18,926
jobs, keeping the
unemployment rate steady at

257
00:14:18,992 --> 00:14:22,996
4.1%. In Wisconsin, the
state of working Wisconsin

258
00:14:23,063 --> 00:14:26,533
is mixed. According to a
report by the same name

259
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,571
from the High Road Strategy
Center at UW-Madison, Laura

260
00:14:30,637 --> 00:14:33,607
Dresser is an economist and
associate director at the

261
00:14:33,674 --> 00:14:35,876
center. And Laura, thanks a
lot for being here.

262
00:14:35,943 --> 00:14:38,879
>> I'm delighted to be here.
>> So how do our job

263
00:14:38,946 --> 00:14:41,148
numbers stack up and how
have they trended since

264
00:14:41,215 --> 00:14:44,117
your last Labor Day report?
>> Yeah, it's been a really

265
00:14:44,184 --> 00:14:46,320
rocky time for the economy
is a great report today

266
00:14:46,386 --> 00:14:50,224
from the national level.
But on net, the national

267
00:14:50,290 --> 00:14:53,493
labor market has barely
grown since January of 2025.

268
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,997
And Wisconsin, as of the
data that came out last

269
00:14:57,064 --> 00:15:00,234
month, Wisconsin's total
job base had actually

270
00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,003
fallen and was slightly
below where it had been in

271
00:15:03,070 --> 00:15:06,340
January of 2025.
>> So your report shows

272
00:15:06,406 --> 00:15:09,610
median wages have grown
steadily. So part of the

273
00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:12,846
mix that we're talking
about now, sitting at just

274
00:15:12,913 --> 00:15:17,518
over $26 an hour. But what
stands out in that stat.

275
00:15:17,584 --> 00:15:20,153
>> That stats interesting
because the median it's

276
00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:22,923
great to see that going up
because it's going up

277
00:15:22,990 --> 00:15:26,260
faster than inflation. It's
been steadily going up

278
00:15:26,326 --> 00:15:29,229
faster than inflation for
most of the last ten years,

279
00:15:29,296 --> 00:15:33,100
except for 2022, when
inflation was really high.

280
00:15:33,166 --> 00:15:35,569
So that's a great stat on
that sense. But there's a

281
00:15:35,636 --> 00:15:40,207
lot of disparities hidden
underneath the median. And

282
00:15:40,274 --> 00:15:44,278
so we look in the report to
see what's going on and

283
00:15:44,344 --> 00:15:46,914
some of the gaps between,
for example, the lowest

284
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:49,516
wage workers and the
highest wage workers

285
00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:51,718
continue to shrink a little
bit because of the

286
00:15:51,785 --> 00:15:53,687
tightness of this labor
market and the way that

287
00:15:53,754 --> 00:15:57,157
lower wage workers have
moved forward in wages

288
00:15:57,224 --> 00:15:59,326
faster than higher wage
workers.

289
00:15:59,393 --> 00:16:02,229
>> And there's also some
kind of demographic gaps.

290
00:16:02,296 --> 00:16:05,032
>> Yeah, for sure. There's
a big gender gap in wages.

291
00:16:05,098 --> 00:16:07,267
People are familiar with
that, though, over the last

292
00:16:07,334 --> 00:16:10,838
40 years, which we document
in this, men's wages have

293
00:16:10,904 --> 00:16:14,074
have only risen a little.
Women's wages have come

294
00:16:14,141 --> 00:16:18,078
quite substantially up. So
the gender gap is closed,

295
00:16:18,145 --> 00:16:21,882
has closed over the last 40
years. And even over the

296
00:16:21,949 --> 00:16:25,586
last little bit. But other
gaps are large and have

297
00:16:25,652 --> 00:16:30,190
grown, especially racial
gaps. Black white disparity,

298
00:16:30,257 --> 00:16:33,060
Black, Hispanic white
disparity has grown quite

299
00:16:33,126 --> 00:16:36,697
substantially.
people are hyper focused on,

300
00:16:36,763 --> 00:16:39,633
that being inflation. You
say there's concern that

301
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:44,371
inflation could wipe out
wage gains of 2026. How so?

302
00:16:44,438 --> 00:16:47,608
>> Yeah, that's even true
in the the national report

303
00:16:47,674 --> 00:16:50,978
from today, inflation the
rate of inflation is higher

304
00:16:51,044 --> 00:16:53,780
than the rate of wage
growth. This is what

305
00:16:53,847 --> 00:16:57,384
happened in 2022. Wages
workers wages went up in

306
00:16:57,451 --> 00:17:00,587
nominal terms. But the cost
of living just wiped that

307
00:17:00,654 --> 00:17:03,524
right out. That looks like
what we're heading into for

308
00:17:03,590 --> 00:17:06,727
2026. So while we got a
high in 2025 and that's

309
00:17:06,793 --> 00:17:10,797
great news, 2026 looks much
less likely that that will

310
00:17:10,864 --> 00:17:13,734
be a strong gain and
possible that it will be a

311
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:15,469
loss because of the high
inflation.

312
00:17:15,536 --> 00:17:18,772
>> As to affordability, you
report that 1 in 3

313
00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:22,643
households in Wisconsin
cannot afford basic things.

314
00:17:22,709 --> 00:17:25,312
You describe this as as
nothing new, but is it

315
00:17:25,379 --> 00:17:28,815
about the cost of living
per se, or is it about the

316
00:17:28,882 --> 00:17:30,384
wages?
>> Yeah, I think it's

317
00:17:30,450 --> 00:17:33,187
really important to see
both of those things in

318
00:17:33,253 --> 00:17:36,690
balance. I think when we
are are focused on the cost

319
00:17:36,757 --> 00:17:40,060
of living, like we see the
prices go up, especially

320
00:17:40,127 --> 00:17:44,364
recently of energy, gas,
utilities. That makes folks

321
00:17:44,431 --> 00:17:48,001
focus on the cost of living.
But in the background, the

322
00:17:48,068 --> 00:17:52,306
suppression of wages, the
long term kind of under the

323
00:17:52,372 --> 00:17:55,976
rates of economic growth,
wage stagnation that this

324
00:17:56,043 --> 00:17:59,146
nation has had, you know,
even this last five years

325
00:17:59,213 --> 00:18:03,083
of growth have not gotten
us back to to kind of

326
00:18:03,150 --> 00:18:06,286
moving ahead as the economy
moves ahead. And if it was

327
00:18:06,353 --> 00:18:09,323
the questions of the
questions of affordability

328
00:18:09,389 --> 00:18:12,426
would be wiped out by
having better job.

329
00:18:12,492 --> 00:18:15,863
>> Laura Dresser we leave
>> Thanks for having me.

330
00:18:15,929 --> 00:18:18,765
>> As to the rising cost of
energy, many people want to

331
00:18:18,832 --> 00:18:22,836
see an even bigger turn to
renewable sources. Solar

332
00:18:22,903 --> 00:18:25,305
panel fields and wind
turbines have been cropping

333
00:18:25,372 --> 00:18:29,309
up next to and on top of
Wisconsin farms for a

334
00:18:29,376 --> 00:18:32,346
couple of decades now. But
as reporter Steven Potter

335
00:18:32,412 --> 00:18:35,749
explains, not everyone is
on board.

336
00:18:36,884 --> 00:18:39,786
>> Chicken Tom
>> Wilcox has farmed the

337
00:18:39,853 --> 00:18:42,723
same plots of land around
his home in Clark County

338
00:18:42,789 --> 00:18:45,526
for more than 20 years.
>> Agriculture is good land

339
00:18:45,592 --> 00:18:47,094
use.
>> He's admittedly old

340
00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,162
fashioned with how he goes
about it.

341
00:18:49,229 --> 00:18:52,065
>> You got to understand, I
farm like it's 1950.

342
00:18:52,132 --> 00:18:55,202
>> He uses older equipment
to harvest his hay and

343
00:18:55,269 --> 00:18:58,372
soybeans, and he mixes his
own corn feed for beef,

344
00:18:58,438 --> 00:19:00,741
cattle, chickens and
turkeys. And he prefers it

345
00:19:00,807 --> 00:19:02,476
that way.
>> It's not that we're

346
00:19:02,543 --> 00:19:05,112
making a lot of money on
these animals. It's the

347
00:19:05,179 --> 00:19:07,581
lifestyle.
that he feels threatens the

348
00:19:07,648 --> 00:19:10,617
work of farmers across
Wisconsin. That's the

349
00:19:10,684 --> 00:19:13,554
increase of renewable
energy projects such as

350
00:19:13,620 --> 00:19:16,623
wind and solar power. He
says that the acreage used

351
00:19:16,690 --> 00:19:19,993
for such projects is just
too valuable.

352
00:19:20,060 --> 00:19:23,363
>> At some point, we're
going to have to decide,

353
00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:27,534
you know, do we want to use
up all this tillable land?

354
00:19:27,601 --> 00:19:31,171
And I personally, I don't.
We need to preserve.

355
00:19:31,238 --> 00:19:34,541
>> Our our valuable
farmland in the state of

356
00:19:34,608 --> 00:19:37,110
Wisconsin and really
everywhere.

357
00:19:37,177 --> 00:19:39,713
these developments. Wilcox
leads the volunteer group

358
00:19:39,780 --> 00:19:42,749
known as Farmland First.
They attend community

359
00:19:42,816 --> 00:19:46,653
meetings, fairs and parades,
and reach out to public

360
00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,189
officials to stop
developments that have been

361
00:19:49,256 --> 00:19:52,226
proposed. He says most of
his fellow rural Wisconsin

362
00:19:52,292 --> 00:19:55,162
residents don't want wind
turbines and solar panel

363
00:19:55,229 --> 00:19:57,297
fields near them.
>> If you go anywhere

364
00:19:57,364 --> 00:20:01,235
around here to a public
forum, you wind up being

365
00:20:01,301 --> 00:20:06,073
like a 90/10 split and the
residents really don't want

366
00:20:06,139 --> 00:20:10,477
this. And usually the
people that are for it are

367
00:20:11,411 --> 00:20:13,847
going to get paid.
>> Farmland first is

368
00:20:13,914 --> 00:20:16,683
actively opposing two
projects nearby.

369
00:20:16,750 --> 00:20:20,721
>> It's basically a city of
farms, and there's too many

370
00:20:20,787 --> 00:20:22,823
people here for this kind
of project.

371
00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:25,592
>> On the other side of
this energy debate, several

372
00:20:25,659 --> 00:20:28,462
utility companies and clean
energy organizations are

373
00:20:28,529 --> 00:20:31,899
pushing to have more solar
and wind projects, saying

374
00:20:31,965 --> 00:20:33,834
we need them.
>> It can be controversial,

375
00:20:33,901 --> 00:20:36,303
for sure.
>> Alex Beld is with Renew

376
00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:38,805
Wisconsin. They say
renewable energy projects

377
00:20:38,872 --> 00:20:41,842
make economic sense.
>> The wind keeps blowing,

378
00:20:41,909 --> 00:20:45,012
the sun keeps shining.
Those energy sources aren't

379
00:20:45,078 --> 00:20:50,284
usually impacted by things
like tariffs or, you know,

380
00:20:50,350 --> 00:20:52,619
global conflict.
>> Proponents also say the

381
00:20:52,686 --> 00:20:54,688
benefits go beyond just
money.

382
00:20:54,755 --> 00:20:57,524
>> Even if there wasn't, at
this point, a great

383
00:20:57,591 --> 00:20:59,960
economic argument to be
made for renewables,

384
00:21:00,027 --> 00:21:03,430
there's a huge
environmental, health and

385
00:21:03,497 --> 00:21:05,566
to be made.
>> Beld says his group

386
00:21:05,632 --> 00:21:07,601
understands there's
resistance.

387
00:21:07,668 --> 00:21:09,970
>> There are people who
don't want to see the

388
00:21:10,037 --> 00:21:13,640
landscape change or see
farmland get used for

389
00:21:13,707 --> 00:21:16,210
something else.
>> But he says the needs

390
00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:20,280
outweigh the costs.
>> The goal is to, yeah,

391
00:21:20,347 --> 00:21:23,884
completely transform our
our economy and our energy

392
00:21:23,951 --> 00:21:26,353
system so that it's all
running on clean energy.

393
00:21:26,420 --> 00:21:28,856
>> For the utility
companies, renewable energy

394
00:21:28,922 --> 00:21:31,525
projects are big business.
>> The renewables are a

395
00:21:31,592 --> 00:21:34,761
great way for us to make
big and positive impacts in

396
00:21:34,828 --> 00:21:37,364
our communities.
>> Ben Lipari is in charge

397
00:21:37,431 --> 00:21:40,467
of commercial operations
for Alliant Energy, one of

398
00:21:40,534 --> 00:21:43,337
the biggest public utility
companies in the state.

399
00:21:43,403 --> 00:21:46,573
>> We have our wind
portfolio that's growing.

400
00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,210
We have our solar portfolio.
That's established and one

401
00:21:50,277 --> 00:21:53,347
of the largest operating
solar portfolios in the

402
00:21:53,413 --> 00:21:55,749
Upper Midwest.
>> He says Alliant strives

403
00:21:55,816 --> 00:21:59,386
for a mixed menu of energy
production.

404
00:22:00,587 --> 00:22:04,791
natural gas and coal to
support the around the

405
00:22:04,858 --> 00:22:07,895
clock energy needs. And
then, as we've been

406
00:22:07,961 --> 00:22:10,097
committed for a number of
years now, we think that

407
00:22:10,163 --> 00:22:13,200
there's a critical role for
renewables that don't have

408
00:22:13,267 --> 00:22:17,204
fuel costs and are able to
complement some of those

409
00:22:17,271 --> 00:22:20,073
traditional energy sources.
>> Lipari also points to

410
00:22:20,140 --> 00:22:23,143
local funding generated by
taxing power per megawatt.

411
00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:25,946
That utility companies are
required to pay.

412
00:22:26,013 --> 00:22:28,749
>> Let me start with solar.
Over the last few years,

413
00:22:28,815 --> 00:22:31,852
we've brought 12 utility
scale projects online

414
00:22:31,919 --> 00:22:34,955
throughout the state.
That's enough power to

415
00:22:35,022 --> 00:22:38,892
support over 350,000
residential homes and

416
00:22:38,959 --> 00:22:40,861
businesses in those
communities. That's

417
00:22:40,928 --> 00:22:44,198
providing critical shared
revenues to support

418
00:22:44,264 --> 00:22:46,633
community projects over the
life of those projects.

419
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:49,036
That's going to support
communities upwards of $150

420
00:22:49,102 --> 00:22:52,005
million.
are more than 20 large

421
00:22:52,539 --> 00:22:55,776
utility scale solar panel
fields, and for wind power,

422
00:22:55,843 --> 00:22:58,612
there are more than a dozen
projects generating

423
00:22:58,679 --> 00:23:02,516
electricity for utility use.
Steil Lipari acknowledges

424
00:23:02,583 --> 00:23:05,085
that not in my backyard.
Opposition.

425
00:23:05,152 --> 00:23:09,456
>> You have certain folks
in the community that would

426
00:23:09,523 --> 00:23:12,526
rather you cite the project
somewhere else. We spend a

427
00:23:12,593 --> 00:23:16,296
lot of time with those
community members. We want

428
00:23:16,363 --> 00:23:19,166
to hear their concerns.
>> Residents can make their

429
00:23:19,233 --> 00:23:21,635
voice heard about these
projects.

430
00:23:21,702 --> 00:23:23,303
>> Throughout the entire
review process. There are

431
00:23:23,370 --> 00:23:27,040
many opportunities for
public participation.

432
00:23:27,107 --> 00:23:29,042
>> Meghan Sovey-Lashua is
with the Public Service

433
00:23:29,109 --> 00:23:31,612
Commission of Wisconsin.
The agency that regulates

434
00:23:31,678 --> 00:23:34,815
utilities in the state. She
says approving any new

435
00:23:34,882 --> 00:23:38,252
energy project is a very
deliberate, drawn out

436
00:23:38,318 --> 00:23:41,688
process. Over six months,
the agency conducts reviews,

437
00:23:41,755 --> 00:23:45,058
holds public hearings.
>> And then there'll be an

438
00:23:45,125 --> 00:23:47,861
open meeting where the
commission then deliberates.

439
00:23:47,928 --> 00:23:50,797
After reviewing that very
full record of evidence.

440
00:23:50,864 --> 00:23:53,066
And then the commission
makes its decision.

441
00:23:53,133 --> 00:23:56,036
>> One major factor that
the PSC considers with new

442
00:23:56,103 --> 00:23:59,072
power generation
applications is the state's

443
00:23:59,139 --> 00:24:02,709
growing need for more
energy. In the SCS draft of

444
00:24:02,776 --> 00:24:07,281
their new strategic Energy
assessment for 2026 to 2032.

445
00:24:07,347 --> 00:24:11,118
The demand for power jumps
more than 40%, and more

446
00:24:11,185 --> 00:24:14,688
than 70% of that increase
is due to three active data

447
00:24:14,755 --> 00:24:17,090
center developments.
>> If there's a

448
00:24:17,157 --> 00:24:19,193
construction project that a
utility needs to build to

449
00:24:19,259 --> 00:24:21,195
serve a data center, that
would come before the

450
00:24:21,261 --> 00:24:24,198
commission. But the
commission has no authority

451
00:24:24,264 --> 00:24:26,633
over data centers.
>> The report also predicts

452
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:29,269
a significant change in the
types of energy production

453
00:24:29,336 --> 00:24:33,574
over the next six years. In
all, coal power will

454
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:38,278
decline 28%. Natural gas
will increase 14%, wind

455
00:24:38,345 --> 00:24:43,217
will increase 6% and solar
will increase 11%. Such

456
00:24:43,283 --> 00:24:45,619
growth in wind and solar
will require more

457
00:24:45,686 --> 00:24:48,121
landowners to share and
least land.

458
00:24:48,188 --> 00:24:51,758
>> Three, four, five, six
seven eight.

459
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,095
>> That's a decision that
Kathy Haas made more than

460
00:24:55,162 --> 00:24:58,498
20 years ago.
>> I determined number two,

461
00:24:58,565 --> 00:25:01,368
and there is 41 in the
project.

462
00:25:02,169 --> 00:25:05,572
she has leased land for one
wind turbine to the Cedar

463
00:25:05,639 --> 00:25:08,909
Ridge Wind Farm project in
the town of Empire. The

464
00:25:08,976 --> 00:25:11,545
least payments she and her
neighbors receive has made

465
00:25:11,612 --> 00:25:14,281
a difference.
>> It's helped a lot of

466
00:25:14,348 --> 00:25:16,917
farmers, you know, some of
the smaller ones, to be

467
00:25:16,984 --> 00:25:19,786
able to hang on to their
farms.

468
00:25:20,420 --> 00:25:22,556
needed is minimal.
>> The wind turbine project,

469
00:25:22,623 --> 00:25:25,626
it's able. You can farm
right up to it. All you

470
00:25:25,692 --> 00:25:29,796
gave up was just this small
piece of land to be able to

471
00:25:29,863 --> 00:25:34,434
develop this project and
add electricity to the grid.

472
00:25:34,501 --> 00:25:36,670
>> Haas says. There was
opposition to the project

473
00:25:36,737 --> 00:25:40,507
early on, but that's faded.
>> Once they realize that

474
00:25:40,574 --> 00:25:44,211
these were going to help
keep our taxes down. You

475
00:25:44,278 --> 00:25:46,847
know, then it was a little
bit, you know, just so that

476
00:25:46,914 --> 00:25:49,917
everybody was going to
benefit somehow.

477
00:25:49,983 --> 00:25:52,486
Everybody's pretty much got
used to them up there.

478
00:25:52,553 --> 00:25:55,489
>> Still, for farmers like
Tom Wilcox, his opposition

479
00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:59,393
is steadfast and represents
what he sees is worth

480
00:25:59,459 --> 00:26:01,061
protecting.
>> You asked earlier if

481
00:26:01,128 --> 00:26:05,599
there's good places for
this. Yeah. Places where

482
00:26:05,666 --> 00:26:08,001
crops don't grow and people
don't grow.

483
00:26:08,068 --> 00:26:10,671
>> Reporting from Clark
County. I'm Steven Potter

484
00:26:10,737 --> 00:26:14,308
for Here and Now.
>> For more on this and

485
00:26:14,374 --> 00:26:17,277
other issues facing
Wisconsin. Visit our

486
00:26:17,344 --> 00:26:20,480
website at PBS Wisconsin
Education and then click on

487
00:26:20,547 --> 00:26:23,617
the news tab. That's our
program for tonight. I'm

488
00:26:23,684 --> 00:26:27,588
Frederica Freyberg. Have a
good weekend.

489
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,870
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

490
00:26:42,936 --> 00:26:47,608
Fund for journalism and
friends of PBS Wisconsin.