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PBS Wisconsin Original
production.

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>> Madison officials
cleared the memorial site,

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where a police officer shot
and killed a man in.

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Candidates competing in the
primary for governor make

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their final bids to land on
the November ballot.

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[MUSIC]
Good evening. I'm Zac

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Schultz, filling in for
Frederica Freyberg tonight

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on here. And now, a final
look at the candidates

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running for governor ahead
of Tuesday's partisan

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primary election. And we'll
examine the limits of First

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Amendment rights as Madison
police shut down the

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protest encampment and the
Lac du Flambeau band

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asserting sovereignty
around their reservation

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leads to federal lawsuits.
It's "Here& Now" for August

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7th.
>> Funding for Here and Now

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is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

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Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> It was just over a year

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ago that Governor Tony
Evers announced he would

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not seek a third term in
office. The number of

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candidates seeking to
replace him as the

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Democratic nominee for
governor eventually surged

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to seven. But today there
are just four left, and

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after Tuesday night, the
party will seek to unite

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behind the winner against
the Republican nominee, Tom

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Tiffany.
>> You know, I think right

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now we are truly in a
movement moment.

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>> On a Wednesday night in
July. There's a packed

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house at the headquarters
of the Democratic Party of

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Ozaukee County. It's
standing room only to hear

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from Francesca Hong, the
frontrunner in the

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Democratic primary for
governor.

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>> I may not be the most
polished candidate. I know

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that there are questions
about executive experience

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and leadership.
>> A democratic socialist,

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Hong has served three terms
in the state Assembly. Not

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the typical resume for a
gubernatorial candidate.

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>> I would say one of the
most powerful messages that

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I carry with me in knowing
that maybe this is time for

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a leader like me.
>> Hong has consistently

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polled well ahead of the
rest of the field, and her

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political movement is built
on bringing new people into

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the voting booth.
>> It's imperative that we

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grow a coalition and the
electorate for Democrats to

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win power and maintain
power. We have to make sure

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that our coalition is
multigenerational,

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multi-faith and with
representing zip codes from

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all across the state. It's
exciting to hear folks have

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their plan to vote, and
it's their first time to

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vote.
>> Democracy can be messy,

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and.
>> David Crowley is now

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polling second. Just a few
weeks after he was out of

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the race altogether. He
dropped out in early July

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and endorsed Sara Rodriguez,
but then got back in after

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her campaign blew up a week
later, this time with the

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endorsement of Tony Evers.
The in and out maneuver is

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not recommended for
candidates, but Crowley

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probably got more attention
than if he was in the race

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the whole time.
>> Hindsight is always 2020,

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right? And so, you know,
trying to, you know, wonder

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what would have happened or
how things would have

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unfolded if I was in this
race. We don't know. I

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can't look into a crystal
ball, but we did see a

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resurgence of energy. I
mean, I think we had more

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people at our relaunch
party that was at our

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launch party.
>> Campaigns change in very

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short order.
>> Joel Brennan and Kelda

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Roys are the last two
Democrats in the race. They

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have consistently pulled in
the low single digits and

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share the idea that if more
people knew their names,

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they'd have more support.
>> My challenge from the

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beginning has been that I
am just not as well known

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as other candidates, not as
well known in some parts of

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the state. I think when
people have seen and heard

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from me, they understand my
experience, the work that

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I've done, the vision that
I have, like I win over

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lots of those people.
>> We need a candidate at

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the top of the ticket who
will not only beat Tom

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Tiffany, but help us
deliver a Democratic

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Assembly and Senate. And
most importantly, we need

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somebody who's actually
capable of doing the job of

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governing.
>> Are we going to stop big

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government socialism right
here in Wisconsin? Yeah.

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>> Waiting on the other
side of the primary is Tom

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Tiffany, a congressman from
northern Wisconsin who is

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largely unopposed in the
Republican primary.

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>> My mom quilts.
[MUSIC]

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>> I've been a dam tender,
a boat captain and a girl

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dad with perfect attendance
at 20 nutcrackers.

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[MUSIC]
>> Tiffany's record in

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Congress and the Wisconsin
legislature before that

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shows he's a far right
conservative, but he's

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spent millions introducing
himself to the state as a

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folksy everyman.
>> Tom, you know mom's

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gonna hold you to it.
[MUSIC]

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>> I wouldn't have it any
other way. Yeah. I mean, it

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was one of the goals from
the start was to make sure

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that people got to meet me
on my own terms.

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>> Democrats have spent
their millions on their own

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ads, but aren't worried.
Tiffany has gained too much

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of an advantage.
>> Tom Tiffany has been the

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frontrunner presumptive
nominee for months. To

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still be doing intro ads is
a little bit embarrassing.

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>> Listen, I like old
Fashioneds. I've got four

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daughters and a son. I like
going to The Nutcracker

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with them. That is not what
qualifies me to be governor.

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>> We don't have to
redefine. We just have to

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make sure that people know
who he is. Always been. And

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like my grandma used to say,
you know, when someone

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shows you who they are the
first time, you have to

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believe them.
>> Whoever wins this

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primary is going to come
out with wind at our back

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with momentum, and then
we'll be the time where Tom

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Tiffany can't just look
over his shoulder and talk

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about his mother. He's
going to have to look over

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his shoulder and talk about
Donald Trump.

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>> After the primary,
Tiffany's ads will have an

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opponent to attack by name.
And for his part, he says

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he's not worried about
which Democrat he faces.

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>> There really isn't a
dime's worth of difference

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between the candidates. I
mean, they're very similar,

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and whoever comes out of
the primary is going to be

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advocating for the same
stuff.

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>> Reporting from Muskego.
I'm Zac Schultz for Here

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and now. In this week's
Inside Wisconsin politics

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had more to say on the two
leading candidates. I'm

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joined by NPR's Shawn
Johnson, Anya van

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Wagtendonk and Rich Kremer.
>> It seems like just a few

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weeks ago on this show, we
were all kind of wondering

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where all these candidates
in this big primary fit.

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What were their political
lanes?

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>> Well, I think you have
the context of the national

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political mood for primary
voters, which are Democrats

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that are mainly angry at
Donald Trump and his

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administration there. If
you look at it in that

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frame, the establishment's
the bad guy. The

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establishment is national
Democrats who haven't done

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enough to stand up to Trump.
So tapping into those

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voters meant you couldn't
be the establishment

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because then you were on
the side of inertia. So

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Francesca Hong clearly
moved to the left. She was

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going to fight, fight,
fight. And a lot of the

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other Democrats in this
race were trying to

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outflank her, and they just
could not.

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has a particularly kind of
interesting personal

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really sort of impoverished,
challenged background in

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Milwaukee. And so up until,
you know, he dropped out

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the first time in this race,
he was kind of described as

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potentially not electable
because statewide, there's

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a there's sometimes, you
know, negative feelings

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about Milwaukee. There is,
you know, always the racial

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element of the fact that
there's never been a Black

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man elected to statewide
office in Wisconsin. So

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there were all these
questions about him. Then

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he comes back with the
endorsement of Tony Evers,

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and all of a sudden he's
described as the

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establishment. It's a
needle of I'm a viable

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candidate, but I will also
stand up to the things that

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you're angry about.
>> Crowley raised more than

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twice as much money during
the month of July. He

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raised $776,000 thereabout,
and Hong brought in around

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$339,000. So that is a big
sign that, at least in

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terms of money, Crowley's
campaign is getting some

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backing. And the other sign
that caught my attention

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was Governor Tony Evers,
you know, who endorsed

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Crowley's campaign, which
is definitely being framed

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as an alternative to
Francesca Hong. He also

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gave $20,000 from his from
Evers campaign account to

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Crowley's campaign account.
That's not a lot of money,

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but it could be a signal to
Evers donors, Evers

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supporters that I'm not
just saying I support this.

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I'm putting my money behind
it.

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>> Francesca Hong is
running a really unique,

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strange race. She has not
raised as much money, but

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it doesn't seem to matter.
She's making sort of

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headlines on her own, sort
of organically rather than

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through these paid ways.
And then all these other

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candidates are just trying
to kind of trying to to

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catch up.
>> And she's not putting

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herself on TV, but other
people are. You've had

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these Republican groups
consistently putting her in

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TV ads, calling her liberal
ahead of this primary.

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>> She has spent $0 on
television, which is just

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unheard of in any type of
serious race. And she's not

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running just a serious race.
She's running the leading

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race. She's doing some, you
know, digital media and

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things like this. But a lot
of her campaign is very

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grassroots, very kind of
door to door. And so you're

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right, when we see if you
see her face on your TV or

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on your your YouTube, it is
because these Republican

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groups are paying for ads
trying to get her over the

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finish line because they
think she's beatable. But

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meanwhile, she kind of says,
you know, thanks for for

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calling attention to my
policies.

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>> You can get the full
episode of Inside Wisconsin

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Politics wherever you get
your podcasts. Earlier this

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week, Madison police in
riot gear cleared out a

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protest encampment at the
intersection where an

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officer shot and killed
Corey Ruiz on July 22nd.

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For at least two nights,
protesters responded by

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throwing rocks and setting
fires in the street. More

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than two dozen people have
been arrested. In a written

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statement, the Ruiz family
denounced any affiliation

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with the encampment,
calling for people to be

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peaceful. Here and now,
reporter Murv Seymour was

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on the scene and brings us
this report.

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>> I personally do not plan
on leaving this space at

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all.
>> Going into the 13th day

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of this protest. The week
begins with tension and a

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seeming clock ticking at
the corners of Baldwin and

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Williamson streets. Just
how long could. And would

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this intersection where
Corey Ruiz was shot and

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killed by a Madison police
officer remain closed?

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>> I've been here since the
22nd.

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>> Some businesses stuck in
the past still shut down as

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city officials and
protesters work to hash out

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a resolution that comforts
both sides. Some community

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members demand a permanent
memorial to honor Corey

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Ruiz. City officials say
they're open to that, but

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want an end to the
encampment.

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>> And now the grief has
turned into anger. Now,

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because they're not moving
swiftly enough.

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>> That's what community
activist Jackie Morris says

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about police and the city's
investigation. He and

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others continue to demand
that the unidentified

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officer who pulled the
trigger is arrested and

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charged.
>> As a community, what are

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we doing here?
>> Azrael JD, who goes by

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the name spawn, wants to
see more than that.

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>> The perfect situation
would be a complete end to

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policing as we know it, at
least in the city of

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Madison. Policing should
lie in the hands of the

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00:10:54,288 --> 00:10:56,390
community.
>> I'm sure if they

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00:10:56,456 --> 00:10:58,492
arrested him right now, at
this minute, all this would

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00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:01,128
go away with blink of an
eye.

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00:11:02,696 --> 00:11:05,199
week, all four corners
leading to the scene still

236
00:11:05,265 --> 00:11:07,434
cut off by homemade
blockades set up by

237
00:11:07,501 --> 00:11:11,004
protesters made of cars,
RVs, debris and at this

238
00:11:11,071 --> 00:11:15,075
section, a bed of nails.
>> What's his name?

239
00:11:18,979 --> 00:11:21,181
>> A day before the two
week mark of this

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00:11:21,248 --> 00:11:24,952
controversial shooting, in
what seems like a blink of

241
00:11:25,018 --> 00:11:28,088
an eye during a pre-dawn
raid, a swarm of nearly 50

242
00:11:28,155 --> 00:11:31,258
law enforcement officers
sweep in, clearing out with

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00:11:31,325 --> 00:11:34,561
force what couldn't be
cleared out with patience,

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00:11:34,628 --> 00:11:38,065
compromise or negotiations.
>> By the time that I got

245
00:11:38,131 --> 00:11:40,167
over here on all four of
these corners, there were

246
00:11:40,234 --> 00:11:44,137
dozens of cops out here,
dozens on every single

247
00:11:44,204 --> 00:11:46,707
corner. And the mayor has
been like, oh, it's

248
00:11:46,773 --> 00:11:49,009
dangerous. The businesses
are against them. The

249
00:11:49,076 --> 00:11:51,879
neighbors are against them.
It's not sanitary. The food

250
00:11:51,945 --> 00:11:55,315
isn't safe. But they always
do that because they will

251
00:11:55,382 --> 00:11:57,784
always paint out community
protecting each other.

252
00:11:57,851 --> 00:12:01,421
>> Can you guys move off
the spot? I did.

253
00:12:02,155 --> 00:12:05,025
>> Kern Latinos.
>> Criticism over policing

254
00:12:05,092 --> 00:12:07,394
in Madison makes its way
all the way to leaders at

255
00:12:07,461 --> 00:12:09,696
City Hall.
>> How are we supposed to

256
00:12:09,763 --> 00:12:12,432
build trust with this? How
do you come back from this?

257
00:12:12,499 --> 00:12:14,501
>> This week's virtual
Common Council meeting

258
00:12:14,568 --> 00:12:17,404
lasts more than seven hours.
>> But my neighbors, the

259
00:12:17,471 --> 00:12:20,607
people I care about, they
are being terrorized every

260
00:12:20,674 --> 00:12:22,709
day by these police
officers.

261
00:12:22,776 --> 00:12:25,312
>> Three minutes at a time.
Almost 400 people

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00:12:25,379 --> 00:12:28,081
registered to speak, most
in support of more trauma

263
00:12:28,148 --> 00:12:29,816
inspired policing.
>> People need to have more

264
00:12:29,883 --> 00:12:32,786
of a grieving time for all
this.

265
00:12:33,687 --> 00:12:36,456
funding for.
>> Oversight without

266
00:12:36,523 --> 00:12:39,193
resources is not oversight.
>> In her first briefing

267
00:12:39,259 --> 00:12:41,828
with reporters flanked by
the police chief and other

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00:12:41,895 --> 00:12:44,131
city leaders, the mayor
admits there's work to be

269
00:12:44,198 --> 00:12:46,099
done to better
relationships between

270
00:12:46,166 --> 00:12:49,036
police and the people
they're sworn to protect.

271
00:12:49,102 --> 00:12:52,606
>> I still believe that we
will do better working

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00:12:52,673 --> 00:12:56,643
together than causing more
harm and destruction. I

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00:12:56,710 --> 00:13:00,147
very much hope that our
community can come together,

274
00:13:00,214 --> 00:13:03,083
start listening to each
other across difference.

275
00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:05,152
Acknowledge some of the
deep structural issues in

276
00:13:05,219 --> 00:13:09,156
our society and focus on
how we move forward.

277
00:13:09,223 --> 00:13:11,358
>> I've identified some
areas that I think we're

278
00:13:11,425 --> 00:13:13,894
going to make immediate
progress on, hopefully in

279
00:13:13,961 --> 00:13:16,830
immediate steps, to do some
restructuring to help us

280
00:13:16,897 --> 00:13:19,867
get there. But that takes
time. And the mayor's point,

281
00:13:19,933 --> 00:13:21,935
it's it's near impossible
to do it when you're in the

282
00:13:22,002 --> 00:13:25,906
middle of a crisis.
>> For most of the week,

283
00:13:26,940 --> 00:13:28,775
traffic flows through this
traumatized community

284
00:13:28,842 --> 00:13:31,578
pretty much like normal.
But the sense of permanent

285
00:13:31,645 --> 00:13:34,681
peace and normalcy in and
around this intersection

286
00:13:34,748 --> 00:13:38,318
remains to be seen.
>> The community needs some

287
00:13:38,385 --> 00:13:41,488
kind of closure, and we
need to be able to trust

288
00:13:41,555 --> 00:13:44,424
the police, the ones who
protect and serve us

289
00:13:44,491 --> 00:13:47,060
instead of the community
against the police, the

290
00:13:47,127 --> 00:13:48,896
police against community.
>> And that's something

291
00:13:48,962 --> 00:13:52,499
both sides can agree on.
Reporting from Madison. I'm

292
00:13:52,566 --> 00:13:55,369
Murv Seymour for here and
Now.

293
00:13:56,170 --> 00:13:58,071
>> The First Amendment to
the Constitution protects

294
00:13:58,138 --> 00:14:00,307
our freedom of speech and
the freedom to assembly,

295
00:14:00,374 --> 00:14:02,776
including to protest. But
what are the limits to

296
00:14:02,843 --> 00:14:05,445
those rights? For that, we
welcome. UW-Madison

297
00:14:05,512 --> 00:14:07,681
political science professor
Emeritus Howard Schweber.

298
00:14:07,748 --> 00:14:09,650
Thanks for your time today.
>> Well, thank you for

299
00:14:09,716 --> 00:14:12,119
having me.
initially took over the

300
00:14:12,186 --> 00:14:14,688
intersection where a man
was shot and killed by

301
00:14:14,755 --> 00:14:17,958
police, they were
assemble. Were they still

302
00:14:18,025 --> 00:14:20,260
within their legal
constitutional rights to be

303
00:14:20,327 --> 00:14:23,297
in that public space?
>> No. Or to put it

304
00:14:23,363 --> 00:14:25,232
differently, not
necessarily. So let's back

305
00:14:25,299 --> 00:14:27,568
up a step. The way these
kind of rules, the way

306
00:14:27,634 --> 00:14:30,470
rights in general we talk
about them is not in terms

307
00:14:30,537 --> 00:14:33,473
of you have the right to do
X, but in terms, can the

308
00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:36,343
government stop you from
doing X? It's always a

309
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:38,212
negative constraint on what
the government may do with

310
00:14:38,278 --> 00:14:41,281
the implication that
anything that's not

311
00:14:41,348 --> 00:14:43,784
left free to undertake. So
the rules are the

312
00:14:43,851 --> 00:14:45,652
government is perfectly
free to make what are

313
00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,856
called content neutral time,
place and manner

314
00:14:48,922 --> 00:14:51,024
regulations. And these are
things like don't use

315
00:14:51,091 --> 00:14:53,060
loudspeakers at night.
Don't camp overnight in a

316
00:14:53,126 --> 00:14:56,496
park. Those are actual old
cases. So there's no

317
00:14:56,563 --> 00:14:58,899
question that cities and
states have the authority

318
00:14:58,966 --> 00:15:01,468
to make those rules, so
long as they're content

319
00:15:01,535 --> 00:15:04,705
neutral. There are two
complicating factors. One

320
00:15:04,771 --> 00:15:06,940
is when a city or state
makes these rules, they

321
00:15:07,007 --> 00:15:10,310
have to be as little
restrictive of expression

322
00:15:10,377 --> 00:15:14,114
as is possible. The other
complicating factor is

323
00:15:14,181 --> 00:15:17,317
whatever rules are adopted,
there has to be adequate

324
00:15:17,384 --> 00:15:20,787
alternative avenues for
expression. So those are

325
00:15:20,854 --> 00:15:22,256
the broad general
principles. And having said

326
00:15:22,322 --> 00:15:24,758
all that, setting up an
encampment that blocks

327
00:15:24,825 --> 00:15:26,493
traffic and close
businesses. Yeah, that's

328
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,029
very clearly something that
is not protected by the

329
00:15:29,096 --> 00:15:30,731
First Amendment and
something the government is

330
00:15:30,797 --> 00:15:32,900
perfectly free to put an
end to.

331
00:15:32,966 --> 00:15:35,169
>> So what happens then
when a city doesn't enforce

332
00:15:35,235 --> 00:15:37,671
those rules?
>> Right. So and of course,

333
00:15:37,738 --> 00:15:40,407
you know, I think we all
recognize that the broader

334
00:15:40,474 --> 00:15:42,743
context of this goes back
to Black Lives Matter and

335
00:15:42,809 --> 00:15:44,811
the pro-Palestinian
encampments that got so

336
00:15:44,878 --> 00:15:47,281
much attention during the
2024 presidential election,

337
00:15:47,347 --> 00:15:50,784
in the first months of
President Trump's term,

338
00:15:50,851 --> 00:15:53,020
we've seen a growth, a
considerable growth in the

339
00:15:53,086 --> 00:15:57,090
last few years of protests
and protests in the form of

340
00:15:57,157 --> 00:15:58,792
encampment. It's just
become a style of

341
00:15:58,859 --> 00:16:01,261
protesting that's become
popular. And one of the

342
00:16:01,328 --> 00:16:03,430
problems that raises is
precisely the problem you

343
00:16:03,497 --> 00:16:05,866
just mentioned, which is
and you're exactly right to

344
00:16:05,933 --> 00:16:09,236
ask that question what
happens if the application

345
00:16:09,303 --> 00:16:12,072
of the rules I'm talking
about the state is

346
00:16:12,139 --> 00:16:14,208
inconsistent? What if some
encampments allowed and

347
00:16:14,274 --> 00:16:17,477
others, you know, are taken
down? And that was

348
00:16:17,544 --> 00:16:19,980
precisely the claim that
was made in the case of the

349
00:16:20,047 --> 00:16:25,352
of the pro-Palestinian
encampments and pro-Israel

350
00:16:25,419 --> 00:16:27,688
legislators and citizens
who objected to the way

351
00:16:27,754 --> 00:16:29,756
they were being treated.
The claim was it was

352
00:16:29,823 --> 00:16:31,058
inconsistent. These
encampments were being

353
00:16:31,124 --> 00:16:33,227
allowed. These students
were being allowed were

354
00:16:33,293 --> 00:16:35,796
being allowed, being
permitted to be disruptive

355
00:16:35,863 --> 00:16:38,465
in a way that other student
protesters had not been. So

356
00:16:38,532 --> 00:16:40,801
a city or state can run
into trouble by showing

357
00:16:40,868 --> 00:16:44,104
favoritism as well as
disfavor. The flip side is

358
00:16:44,171 --> 00:16:46,607
whether we're talking about
a city or a university, or

359
00:16:46,673 --> 00:16:48,709
a state government, or any
police force. Discretion is

360
00:16:48,775 --> 00:16:52,079
always part of the job
description. Using your

361
00:16:52,145 --> 00:16:55,482
judgment, deciding when to
step in, deciding how much

362
00:16:55,549 --> 00:16:58,051
leeway to allow. And that
always opens the

363
00:16:58,118 --> 00:17:00,420
possibility of someone
claiming you're being

364
00:17:00,487 --> 00:17:01,889
inconsistent.
>> So we've talked about

365
00:17:01,955 --> 00:17:05,092
the word encampment coming
around in protest movements

366
00:17:05,158 --> 00:17:07,961
more. And, you know, we can
go back 15 years to the act

367
00:17:08,028 --> 00:17:11,098
ten protests where the
capital was occupied for

368
00:17:11,164 --> 00:17:14,134
more than a month. There
were protest zones within

369
00:17:14,201 --> 00:17:16,803
there where the protesters
themselves prevented media

370
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:18,672
from accessing certain
halls, legislators from

371
00:17:18,739 --> 00:17:21,575
getting to their offices.
That was negotiated in

372
00:17:21,642 --> 00:17:24,545
terms of how people would
exit the capital, the

373
00:17:24,611 --> 00:17:26,647
preservation of materials.
There were very few arrests

374
00:17:26,713 --> 00:17:29,416
down to the last handful of
people brought out,

375
00:17:29,483 --> 00:17:32,386
obviously, the Palestinian
protest encampment on

376
00:17:32,452 --> 00:17:35,222
UW-Madison required police
intervention. This one did.

377
00:17:35,289 --> 00:17:37,658
>> Well, we should be clear
on this. The Palestinian

378
00:17:37,724 --> 00:17:40,294
protest in Kamala Madison
was tolerated for a

379
00:17:40,360 --> 00:17:43,964
considerable period of time.
The university and, you

380
00:17:44,031 --> 00:17:46,567
know, this is the bind that
they're in. They tried to

381
00:17:46,633 --> 00:17:49,203
do this with a gentle hand.
They tried to exercise

382
00:17:49,269 --> 00:17:51,104
discretion to maximize the
ability of students to

383
00:17:51,171 --> 00:17:53,941
express themselves. They
tried to find a balance

384
00:17:54,007 --> 00:17:58,178
between allowing this, this
expressive activity to go

385
00:17:58,245 --> 00:18:00,948
forward while preventing
disruption. But that

386
00:18:01,014 --> 00:18:03,383
becomes the problem. So
take Acton, for example,

387
00:18:03,450 --> 00:18:05,853
many conservatives who
oppose the protests who

388
00:18:05,919 --> 00:18:08,088
supported Governor Walker
were deeply upset. Why are

389
00:18:08,155 --> 00:18:10,290
the police not throwing
these people out? Why are

390
00:18:10,357 --> 00:18:12,559
they letting these people
occupy our Capitol building

391
00:18:12,626 --> 00:18:14,995
and prevent the business of
the government from going

392
00:18:15,062 --> 00:18:17,097
forward? Would they do the
same if this were the Ku

393
00:18:17,164 --> 00:18:19,299
Klux Klan? And again,
they're not wrong. The

394
00:18:19,366 --> 00:18:22,870
answer, I hope, is no. So
this just gets back to the

395
00:18:22,936 --> 00:18:25,873
point I was making earlier.
There is a history of

396
00:18:25,939 --> 00:18:27,741
encampments and takeovers.
In recent years,

397
00:18:27,808 --> 00:18:29,343
governments have been
wrestling with them, and

398
00:18:29,409 --> 00:18:32,513
the politics around those
government responses has

399
00:18:32,579 --> 00:18:36,049
been so amplified and made
so partizan and fraught

400
00:18:36,116 --> 00:18:38,252
because of the way Trump
treated those issues when

401
00:18:38,318 --> 00:18:42,756
he ran for president in
2024, that now, you know,

402
00:18:42,823 --> 00:18:45,692
all the cities,
universities, states are on

403
00:18:45,759 --> 00:18:48,996
tenterhooks trying to
way to proceed. And the

404
00:18:49,062 --> 00:18:51,899
error on the side of
caution is intervening and

405
00:18:51,965 --> 00:18:54,201
moving the encampments out
rather than being unduly

406
00:18:54,268 --> 00:18:56,303
tolerant.
>> So kind of put a bow on

407
00:18:56,370 --> 00:19:00,174
this in terms of the First
Amendment and protesters,

408
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,176
well, it's my First
Amendment rights. What is

409
00:19:02,242 --> 00:19:04,111
the great confusion there
that comes within the

410
00:19:04,178 --> 00:19:05,913
bounds of your rights
versus someone else's

411
00:19:05,979 --> 00:19:09,149
rights?
version is you have a right

412
00:19:09,216 --> 00:19:11,418
to protest up to the point
where you're disrupting

413
00:19:11,485 --> 00:19:13,954
other people's ability to
go about their day. This is

414
00:19:14,021 --> 00:19:16,323
a simplistic, simplistic
version, of course, but

415
00:19:16,390 --> 00:19:18,525
it's not far off if you
block streets, if you block

416
00:19:18,592 --> 00:19:20,661
sidewalks, if you block
access to businesses, if

417
00:19:20,727 --> 00:19:23,263
you block people's ability
to get out of their home,

418
00:19:23,330 --> 00:19:25,332
if you disrupt the
operation of classrooms,

419
00:19:25,399 --> 00:19:28,268
for example, none of those
is protected by the First

420
00:19:28,335 --> 00:19:31,104
Amendment. The First
right to express yourself

421
00:19:31,171 --> 00:19:33,707
in ways that are peaceful
and discursive. There

422
00:19:33,774 --> 00:19:37,945
simply is no protection for
engaging in, well, civil

423
00:19:38,011 --> 00:19:40,447
disobedience. And the
reason we call it civil

424
00:19:40,514 --> 00:19:43,050
disobedience is that when
you do that, when you

425
00:19:43,116 --> 00:19:46,286
deliberately march into a
racially segregated lunch

426
00:19:46,353 --> 00:19:49,823
counter and integrate it,
right, you acknowledge you

427
00:19:49,890 --> 00:19:52,593
risk being arrested and
suffering the punishment.

428
00:19:52,659 --> 00:19:55,229
That's part of the whole
civil disobedience paradigm.

429
00:19:55,295 --> 00:19:57,564
And it's an honorable it
can be a very honorable

430
00:19:57,631 --> 00:20:00,200
thing. But there is not a
First Amendment right to

431
00:20:00,267 --> 00:20:02,269
engage in acts that would
otherwise be crimes.

432
00:20:02,336 --> 00:20:04,071
>> All right, Professor
Schweber, thanks for your

433
00:20:04,137 --> 00:20:06,740
time today.
>> Another battle between

434
00:20:06,807 --> 00:20:09,409
property owners in the Lac
du Flambeau band of Lake

435
00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:12,613
Superior Chippewa is in
court. The tribe recently

436
00:20:12,679 --> 00:20:15,015
declared non-Native peoples
could not fish for walleye

437
00:20:15,082 --> 00:20:17,918
and muskie in lakes within
tribal territory. And

438
00:20:17,985 --> 00:20:20,320
they're now facing a
federal lawsuit. “Here&

439
00:20:20,387 --> 00:20:22,723
Now” reporter Erica Ayisi
traveled to the Northwoods

440
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:25,359
to hear how tribal members
feel about their

441
00:20:25,425 --> 00:20:27,661
sovereignty being
challenged in court. This

442
00:20:27,728 --> 00:20:30,464
report is in collaboration
with Eich T, formerly

443
00:20:30,531 --> 00:20:34,868
Indian Country, today.
>> I feel strongly that

444
00:20:37,104 --> 00:20:39,806
everyone needs to take care
of what we have on earth.

445
00:20:39,873 --> 00:20:44,211
That means our water, our
land, and everyone's

446
00:20:44,811 --> 00:20:47,314
well-being.
>> Bagwajikwe Madosh is a

447
00:20:47,381 --> 00:20:49,650
citizen of the Lac du
Flambeau band of Lake

448
00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:52,386
Superior Chippewa Indians,
and she says she believes

449
00:20:52,452 --> 00:20:56,123
in preserving Ojibwe
traditions, which the Lac

450
00:20:56,190 --> 00:20:59,026
du Flambeau tribe is
defending in federal court.

451
00:20:59,092 --> 00:21:02,429
>> Let us do what we know
best replenish our lakes,

452
00:21:02,496 --> 00:21:06,233
keep our grounds clean, our
forests long.

453
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:08,969
>> Interlaken Lake is one
of 19 lakes within the Lac

454
00:21:09,036 --> 00:21:11,839
du Flambeau Reservation
that a federal judge

455
00:21:11,905 --> 00:21:14,408
temporarily blocked the
tribe from, banning

456
00:21:14,474 --> 00:21:17,010
nonmembers from fishing
walleye and muskellunge in

457
00:21:17,077 --> 00:21:19,980
fish.
>> We replenish the fish,

458
00:21:20,914 --> 00:21:24,518
we replenish, we take.
>> DOGE says their fish

459
00:21:24,585 --> 00:21:26,920
hatchery helps to maintain
their stock, but says

460
00:21:26,987 --> 00:21:29,923
there's concern about the
fish population.

461
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:34,494
>> It's not what you use it
and then go on with life

462
00:21:34,561 --> 00:21:37,564
without knowing what's
going to come next.

463
00:21:37,631 --> 00:21:40,300
>> The state of Wisconsin
sued the tribe for blocking

464
00:21:40,367 --> 00:21:43,570
nonmembers from fishing in
certain lakes. Tribal

465
00:21:43,637 --> 00:21:46,773
President John Johnson said
the fish population is

466
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,143
declining but needed to
feed their 4000 tribal

467
00:21:50,210 --> 00:21:53,013
members.
change, a lot of it's

468
00:21:53,447 --> 00:21:55,249
logging structure,
infrastructure, everything

469
00:21:55,315 --> 00:21:57,417
that goes on in our
territory. We're here to

470
00:21:57,484 --> 00:21:59,586
protect it.
>> Madhosh says. There's

471
00:21:59,653 --> 00:22:02,289
overfishing on their lakes
and rivers.

472
00:22:02,356 --> 00:22:07,060
>> We need to all limit
what we take, you know, and

473
00:22:07,127 --> 00:22:11,798
many people are taking what
many people can have as

474
00:22:12,499 --> 00:22:14,801
well.
>> Flambeau Lake is also

475
00:22:14,868 --> 00:22:17,404
mentioned in the lawsuit
against the tribe.

476
00:22:17,471 --> 00:22:21,842
>> Walz, which is Lake of
the Flaming Torches.

477
00:22:21,909 --> 00:22:24,678
>> Adrian King grew up here
and has seen new neighbors

478
00:22:24,745 --> 00:22:27,648
over the years.
>> A lot of these are

479
00:22:27,714 --> 00:22:30,450
non-native houses, as far
as I know.

480
00:22:30,517 --> 00:22:33,287
>> He says he supports the
tribe in responding to a

481
00:22:33,353 --> 00:22:36,256
second federal lawsuit
involving the tribe, this

482
00:22:36,323 --> 00:22:39,560
one filed by the White Sand
Lake Association, a group

483
00:22:39,626 --> 00:22:42,696
of non-Native homeowners
who are suing the tribe for

484
00:22:42,763 --> 00:22:46,066
access to use a boat launch
on a private property on

485
00:22:46,133 --> 00:22:50,204
the shoreline of White Sand
Lake that's within the

486
00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:53,073
reservation.
>> At least, are

487
00:22:53,907 --> 00:22:58,045
experimenting, are flexing
their sovereignty a little

488
00:22:58,111 --> 00:23:00,314
bit more.
>> The tribe says the lake

489
00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:03,550
is threatened by documented
environmental concerns,

490
00:23:03,617 --> 00:23:06,720
including the presence of
Eurasian watermilfoil, an

491
00:23:06,787 --> 00:23:09,957
invasive species under
Wisconsin law, saying it

492
00:23:10,023 --> 00:23:12,693
threatens their cultural
resources along the

493
00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:14,294
shoreline.
>> However, the information

494
00:23:14,361 --> 00:23:18,532
and data came from whether
it was our own or the

495
00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:22,503
state's, we, we. We pay
attention to that.

496
00:23:24,204 --> 00:23:26,807
>> According to the lawsuit,
the association is asking

497
00:23:26,874 --> 00:23:29,476
the Federal court to decide
whether a tribal government

498
00:23:29,543 --> 00:23:33,380
may regulate the activities
of nonmembers on a fee.

499
00:23:33,447 --> 00:23:36,416
Simple, privately owned
land and navigable waters

500
00:23:36,483 --> 00:23:40,254
in the state of Wisconsin.
Tory Dolan, assistant

501
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,690
professor of law at the
University of Wisconsin and

502
00:23:43,757 --> 00:23:45,993
citizen of the Choctaw
Nation of Oklahoma, says

503
00:23:46,059 --> 00:23:48,829
the United States
recognizes Indian tribes as

504
00:23:48,896 --> 00:23:51,698
sovereign nations who have
the right to govern

505
00:23:51,765 --> 00:23:55,102
themselves, their members,
and their territories.

506
00:23:55,169 --> 00:23:57,538
>> It means that they're
exercising their ability to

507
00:23:57,604 --> 00:24:00,607
have a say over what
happens in their territory

508
00:24:00,674 --> 00:24:03,310
and in their community.
>> When we talk about, they

509
00:24:03,377 --> 00:24:07,314
can govern themselves. What
does that mean for the

510
00:24:07,381 --> 00:24:09,816
communities that are around
them?

511
00:24:09,883 --> 00:24:12,719
>> Generally, just being in
tribal territory, you are

512
00:24:12,786 --> 00:24:15,789
going to interact with
tribal law in some capacity.

513
00:24:15,856 --> 00:24:18,559
>> Dolan says the Lac du
Flambeau reservation is

514
00:24:18,625 --> 00:24:20,627
checkerboarded with
non-tribal members

515
00:24:20,694 --> 00:24:23,096
purchasing property there
because of the Dawes Act or

516
00:24:23,163 --> 00:24:26,066
General Allotment Act of
1887.

517
00:24:26,767 --> 00:24:29,570
>> Congress created the
Dawes Act, which authorized

518
00:24:29,636 --> 00:24:32,773
Indian agents to go into
tribal communities, parcel

519
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,243
out the communal land, sell
the surplus.

520
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:39,246
>> In a different federal
case. Last year, a judge

521
00:24:39,313 --> 00:24:42,216
sided with non-tribal
homeowners in a dispute

522
00:24:42,282 --> 00:24:45,652
over access to four tribal
roads that led to private

523
00:24:45,719 --> 00:24:48,422
properties on the Lac du
Flambeau reservation.

524
00:24:48,488 --> 00:24:50,824
>> The Bureau of Indian
Affairs approved these

525
00:24:50,891 --> 00:24:54,161
easements, and once they
expired, the tribe sought

526
00:24:54,228 --> 00:24:56,630
to assert their property
rights by closing these

527
00:24:56,697 --> 00:24:59,800
roads.
was motivated by a belief

528
00:24:59,867 --> 00:25:03,203
that Native American
Indians would die out,

529
00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:06,240
assimilate or be
indistinguishable from

530
00:25:06,306 --> 00:25:08,809
non-Indian populations.
>> That's why we have so

531
00:25:08,876 --> 00:25:12,145
many legal and political
issues today, because they

532
00:25:12,212 --> 00:25:15,916
really didn't expect tribes
and tribal people to endure.

533
00:25:15,983 --> 00:25:18,619
>> Dolan says. She believes
it's important.

534
00:25:18,685 --> 00:25:21,288
>> Their ability to enforce
their own laws means their

535
00:25:21,355 --> 00:25:24,024
ability to continue to
exist as a people, to

536
00:25:24,091 --> 00:25:27,294
continue to exist in their
territory and to protect

537
00:25:27,361 --> 00:25:30,697
the area.
>> King says. In times like

538
00:25:31,999 --> 00:25:35,102
these, the different tribes
in Wisconsin come together.

539
00:25:35,169 --> 00:25:38,839
>> They feel a part of the
tribe or a tribe, and they

540
00:25:38,906 --> 00:25:42,342
want to do their part to
protect it.

541
00:25:42,409 --> 00:25:46,847
>> We as a people want to
keep our earth as clean as

542
00:25:46,914 --> 00:25:48,448
possible.
>> Meadows says the pending

543
00:25:48,515 --> 00:25:51,351
federal lawsuits involving
the Lac du Flambeau are

544
00:25:51,418 --> 00:25:54,154
about keeping their tribal
sovereignty.

545
00:25:54,221 --> 00:25:57,491
>> That's the main one that
we need to keep for

546
00:25:57,558 --> 00:25:59,693
ourselves.
>> And maintaining their

547
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:03,030
culture.
>> And for our children for

548
00:26:03,096 --> 00:26:05,866
times coming in.
>> Lac du Flambeau. I'm

549
00:26:05,933 --> 00:26:09,403
Eric Ayisi for Here and Now
and I see T.

550
00:26:10,337 --> 00:26:13,040
>> For more on this and
other issues facing

551
00:26:13,106 --> 00:26:15,776
Wisconsin, visit our
website at PBS

552
00:26:15,843 --> 00:26:18,078
wisconsin.org and then
click on the news tab. That

553
00:26:18,145 --> 00:26:20,047
is our program for tonight.
Frederica Freyberg will be

554
00:26:20,113 --> 00:26:22,449
back next week. I'm Zac
Schultz have a great

555
00:26:22,516 --> 00:26:24,184
weekend.
[MUSIC]

556
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:38,031
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

557
00:26:44,371 --> 00:26:49,042
Fund for Journalism and
friends of PBS Wisconsin.