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>> The following program is
a PBS Wisconsin Original

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production.
>> We shall see. Down. We

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shall sit down.
>> Protesters take over the

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streets.
>> We have the power, not

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that badge.
>> And demand answers from

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officials. After a Madison
police officer shot and

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killed a man during an
arrest.

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I'm Frederica Freyberg
tonight on "Here& Now"

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reaction over the police
shooting of Cory Ruiz. The

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latest on the race for
governor with Marquette Law

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School pollster Charles
Franklin. Clarity for

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absentee voters who cast
their ballot. But their

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candidate dropped out. And
an agency that helped

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provide people with shelter
in ten counties went under.

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What happens now? It's
"Here& Now" for July 24th.

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[MUSIC]
>> Funding for Here and Now

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is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

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Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> A Madison police officer

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shot and killed a man as
four officers attempted to

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arrest him this week on
Madison's near East Side.

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Cell phone video of the
altercation quickly went

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viral. The community
response was swift,

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demanding answers and
action. Reporter and

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videographer Marissa Wojcik
has more. But first, a

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warning to viewers. This
video contains sounds of

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gunfire.
>> Who died today? Who was

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murdered today?
>> Lori.

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>> We want the officer's
name tonight and we want

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him arrested.
>> Protesters swelled the

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main traffic artery leading
to the state capitol

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Wednesday. Soon after,
police shot and killed Cory

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Ruiz during an arrest.
>> We all witnessed on

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social media last night. A
human being take the life

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of another human being. We
were all there.

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>> Outrage over what online
footage showed led

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community members to
disrupt a city press

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conference and an event at
the Capitol.

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>> A lot of these places
don't even care and what is

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going on is wrong. But yet
y'all sit here with stale

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faces.
>> Police say officers

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responded to a call of a
man checking parked

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vehicles after he attempted
to flee. A physical

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altercation ensued. One
officer attempted to use a

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Taser, which failed. Police
say Ruiz injured an officer

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with a knife before that
officer opened fire.

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>> When you see someone
shot on camera and the

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shooting happens within a
matter of, you know, one,

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two, three seconds, that is
angering and it's

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horrifying and it's
heartbreaking.

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>> I want to be clear. It
does not matter who you are

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or what your past is, you
should not lose your life

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as a result of an encounter
with law enforcement. That

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should not happen.
>> City officials responded

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to calls for accountability
Thursday.

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>> My first thought is when
the officer is walking away,

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why isn't he walking away
in cuffs? That's my first

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thought.
on George Floyd's neck, and

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we don't want to hear it
today. That's the.

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>> It's really
understandable that people

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want answers right now. I
want them to. But the

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honest truth is that good
investigations take time.

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We have to let the
investigation play out.

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>> This is an open and
active homicide

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investigation. Right now.
>> The investigation is

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being led by the Wisconsin
Department of Justice

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Division of Criminal
Investigation.

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>> They are hunting us.
They are hunting us.

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>> I think everyone in this
room can feel the thinness

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of trust in this city right
now, right? I can feel it.

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It did not start yesterday.
And it's not abstract. It's

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the direct result, I think,
of what our community has

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gone through and we have
watched repeat. The

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shooting happened a block
and a half from where Tony

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Robinson was shot and
killed by a Madison police

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officer in 2015. It
happened near the same

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corner where Paul Heenan
was shot and killed by a

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police officer in Madison
in 2012. So three fatal

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encounters with police
department within roughly

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14 years, on the same
handful of blocks.

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>> This is not new to
Madison.

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>> This is the third death
of a Black man on Willy

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Street. This is not new.
That's why when we say no

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justice, we mean no peace.
>> There is not enough

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de-escalation. There are
poor training methods, and

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then there is a tendency to
go to the most lethal form

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of subduing somebody as
possible. When you pull out

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a gun, someone is going to
die. And we've seen it

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happen time and time again,
and we need that to change.

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Now.
>> Many in the community

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are calling for all
officers to wear body

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cameras.
>> As you know, we don't

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have a broad deployment of
body worn cameras in

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Madison, and I understand
that this fact does create

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another challenge to
repairing trust in our

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community.
department isn't already

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deploying them.
>> So the community

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advocated against
implementation of body worn

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cameras for some years. And
then more importantly, more

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recently, the community
took a different turn and

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supported body worn cameras.
In the time that I've been

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on the council, the support
for body worn cameras has

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increased and they'll be
funded. I'm confident that

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they'll be.
>> Funded.

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>> And we're not going to
wait for a final report

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from DC, I to begin the
work of examining our

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policies, our training and
response. We're going to do

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that now.
>> We'll be here every

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night until we get justice
for the family.

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>> There's a collective
anger, there's a collective

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pain there, and there's a
collective loss.

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>> Is name.
>> For me.

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>> Say his name.
>> Reporting from Madison.

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I'm Marissa Wojcik for Here
and Now.

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>> While the State
Department of Justice will

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investigate the shooting,
the Dane County D.A. will

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make any charging decisions.
The Madison office of the

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Independent Police Monitor
will also investigate.

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Turning to election news in
the topsy turvy Democratic

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primary for governor, some
insights from this week's

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Marquette Law School poll.
Even though it was in the

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field before Lieutenant
Governor Sara Rodriguez

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dropped out, and Milwaukee
County Executive David

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Crowley got back into the
race. Poll director Charles

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Franklin is here with more.
And thanks for being here.

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>> Thanks for having me.
>> So even in the midst of

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this upheaval, what are
your takeaways from your

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latest poll?
>> I think the biggest

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thing is that even with
Rodriguez in the race, in

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our poll, Francesca Hong
was still in first place.

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That's the fourth poll in a
row that she's led. Mandela

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Barnes was in second place.
Also the third poll that

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he's been in second place
since he got in the race.

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And of course, we didn't
have David Crowley because

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he was not a candidate at
that moment. The other

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thing that's really
important is that 45% of

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Democratic primary voters
said they hadn't decided

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who they would vote for. So
even before the turmoil of

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changing candidates, still,
almost half of the

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Democratic electorate said
they hadn't settled on who

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they would support.
>> So Hong's supporters are

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really strong supporters.
>> They are quite strong.

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They're a little more
likely to say they're

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absolutely certain that
that's who they're going to

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vote for. And when we ask
for second choices, she

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doesn't get that many
second choices, which

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suggests in one sense, that
her supporters are already

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behind her. But it also
suggests that folks that

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are looking at candidates
other than her are not as

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likely to come to her if
their first choice goes

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away.
>> If two thirds of

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Democratic voters say
winning in November is

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extremely important, as
according to your poll. How

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does Tony Evers endorsement
of David Crowley factor

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into that?
>> Thus, the importance of

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winning in November was
uniform. No matter which

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candidate you were
supporting, all of them

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gave that high rating to
say it was extremely

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important. But Evers is
remarkably popular among

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Democrats. He has an 89%
job approval with Democrats

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right now. The question is
whether his endorsements

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and activity in the
campaign moves people on

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that decision, as opposed
to they like the job he's

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doing as governor. But
maybe they're not going to

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be influenced by his
recommendations that we

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really don't know at this
point.

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>> So the Rodriguez Lane
was moderate Democrat who

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picks up most of her vote.
>> When we asked second

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choices of people that
supported her about an

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equal number, went to
Mandela Barnes and went in,

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went to Joel Brennan
smaller percentage, a good

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bit smaller, went to Hong
and a small percentage went

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to Kelda.
>> Roys so you described

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the undecideds at 45%.
Would voters sit this one

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out and not vote because of
all of this confusion?

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>> It's possible we do
still see a high professed

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intention to vote. It
certainly won't be the

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level of a midterm election
because primaries are much

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smaller than that. But I
think the Democratic

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coalition is pretty well
mobilized. The issue is,

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does this turmoil in the
list of candidates take

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some people who were in
that undecided category and

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make them just throw up
their hands and say, I'm

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not going to bother or and
this is, I think, a real

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possibility. It's focusing
attention on a race that

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had been pretty low key up
until now. And so it may

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have the effect of actually
energizing Democratic

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voters, but we're also
seeing a significant split

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across, especially Hong
Barnes and Crowley,

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potentially Crowley
supporters, about how does

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that split the vote, and
does it coalesce around one

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candidate, or does it just
splinter the vote evenly?

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>> So even with Hong
continuing to lead among

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Dems, your numbers show
Barnes leads Tiffany while

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the rest of the field does
not.

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>> That's right. When we
asked the general election

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question, Barnes is the
strongest Democrat, leading

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Tiffany by four percentage
points, whereas Hong trails

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Tiffany by three points.
When we shift it to likely

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voters, the people who say
they're certain they'll

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vote in the fall, Barnes
lead goes up to five and

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Hong then ties Tiffany. So
I think my take away from

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this is that there is a
little bit of a

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differentiation between the
candidates, but it's a

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fairly close race, whether
it's Barnes or Hong or any

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of the other Democrats that
we asked about. So guess

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what? It looks like another
probably close election in

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Wisconsin.
>> Yeah. Does the shakeup

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at the top of the ticket
inform the legislative

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races?
>> And maybe we asked about

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who would you vote for for
the legislature. And

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Democrats had a small lead
there about a four point

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lead. But that's about just
general voting. We don't

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ask about individual races
there. I do think that for

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Democrats chances in the
fall, they certainly would

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benefit from a strong
gubernatorial candidate and

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a winning Democratic
campaign, because that

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support at the governor's
level can trickle down to

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the legislative races. I
think it's way too early to

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have any sense about
whether whoever the nominee

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is will emerge as a very
strong candidate or not.

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>> So meanwhile, you're in
the field again with a new

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poll to share with us next
Wednesday.

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>> Things keep changing, so
you have to keep doing new

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polls. This poll that will
come out next Wednesday is

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only about Democratic
primary voters and only

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about them. And we'll
certainly ask about

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opinions of Crowley vote
again in the primary. And

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also Governor Evers
endorsement, and whether

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people think that makes
them more or less likely to

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support David Crowley. We
will also be

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re-interviewing the people
we've interviewed this past

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week. So we'll be able to
see whether those undecided

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folks last week have moved
any further towards

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decision making this week.
The only drawback to this

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is it's a fairly short
period of time, so we'll

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00:13:04,218 --> 00:13:07,754
still have two more weeks
to Election Day when this

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00:13:07,821 --> 00:13:09,590
poll is finished.
>> Wow. Well, thank you for

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00:13:09,656 --> 00:13:11,892
your work.
>> Thank you.

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00:13:13,293 --> 00:13:16,530
>> For more insights on the
twists and turns we look to

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00:13:16,597 --> 00:13:19,566
this week's Inside
Wisconsin Politics. In this

241
00:13:19,633 --> 00:13:23,003
excerpt, we hear from our
own Zac Schultz and PFAS

242
00:13:23,070 --> 00:13:26,340
Shawn Johnson.
>> Of the Democrats in the

243
00:13:26,406 --> 00:13:28,976
race right now, not
including David Crowley

244
00:13:29,042 --> 00:13:32,579
only Mandela Barnes defeats
Tom Tiffany in a head to

245
00:13:32,646 --> 00:13:36,817
head matchup by a 44 to 40%
split among registered

246
00:13:36,884 --> 00:13:40,821
voters. Tiffany leads
Francesca Hong 43 to 40%,

247
00:13:40,888 --> 00:13:45,459
so a plus four for Mandela
Barnes, minus three for

248
00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:49,796
Francesca Hong Zac. I mean,
I think it kind of begs the

249
00:13:49,863 --> 00:13:53,700
question, why did the
establishment not rally

250
00:13:53,767 --> 00:13:56,303
around Mandela Barnes?
>> One of the distinctions

251
00:13:56,370 --> 00:13:59,273
is Barnes came in with the
most name recognition of

252
00:13:59,339 --> 00:14:02,876
everyone due to his 2022 US
Senate run, his close loss

253
00:14:02,943 --> 00:14:05,879
to Ron Johnson. And it was
always a question because

254
00:14:05,946 --> 00:14:08,549
he also had the highest
negatives that came with

255
00:14:08,615 --> 00:14:11,552
that hangover from that
election. And he started

256
00:14:11,618 --> 00:14:14,788
running this race as the
front runner. He introduced

257
00:14:14,855 --> 00:14:17,391
himself as saying, I'm the
one to take on Tom Tiffany.

258
00:14:17,457 --> 00:14:19,593
He did the thing where he
ignores the rest of the

259
00:14:19,660 --> 00:14:22,496
field and kind of pretends
they weren't there. And

260
00:14:22,563 --> 00:14:24,565
then partway through this
election, I think he or his

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00:14:24,631 --> 00:14:26,500
campaign realized, oh no,
Francesca Hong is there. I

262
00:14:26,567 --> 00:14:29,336
do have to take her
seriously. So we kind of

263
00:14:29,403 --> 00:14:31,638
had to shift his tone to
talking about his

264
00:14:31,705 --> 00:14:34,274
competitors, where I think
at first he was running the

265
00:14:34,341 --> 00:14:36,443
2022 U.S. Senate primary,
where all of his

266
00:14:36,510 --> 00:14:38,612
competitors dropped out at
the end, and he basically

267
00:14:38,679 --> 00:14:40,681
had the field to himself.
That didn't happen. So it

268
00:14:40,747 --> 00:14:43,650
is a question of, did the
rest of the field say

269
00:14:43,717 --> 00:14:46,386
you've had your chance and
you couldn't make your case?

270
00:14:46,453 --> 00:14:48,589
Now we're going to go with
someone else, or is it

271
00:14:48,655 --> 00:14:51,358
simply that they think her
negatives are too high,

272
00:14:51,425 --> 00:14:53,427
despite the head to head
matchup? Looking good.

273
00:14:53,493 --> 00:14:56,597
>> Why are so many people
not sure about this? What

274
00:14:56,663 --> 00:14:58,832
we thought was going to be
a very high profile race

275
00:14:58,899 --> 00:15:00,834
for governor.
>> Because those 48% make

276
00:15:00,901 --> 00:15:03,203
up a lot of people who
don't watch this podcast,

277
00:15:03,270 --> 00:15:06,073
so they are not as informed.
There are a lot of people

278
00:15:06,139 --> 00:15:09,376
who don't pay attention to
politics until the very end

279
00:15:09,443 --> 00:15:12,613
there. We just got the
first campaign flier in my

280
00:15:12,679 --> 00:15:14,748
mailbox this morning.
They're starting to come.

281
00:15:14,815 --> 00:15:17,084
Those people will follow
along. Another thing that

282
00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:19,753
happens in primaries pretty
regularly is people wait to

283
00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:22,089
see if there is a
frontrunner. They don't

284
00:15:22,155 --> 00:15:24,758
like to waste their vote on
someone who will not win,

285
00:15:24,825 --> 00:15:27,060
or they're going to say,
well, I like this person,

286
00:15:27,127 --> 00:15:29,129
but they're in fourth place
and they're not polling

287
00:15:29,196 --> 00:15:31,865
very high. Why would I
throw it behind them? Who

288
00:15:31,932 --> 00:15:34,067
is my next favorite? Which
is another good thing that

289
00:15:34,134 --> 00:15:36,970
the Marquette poll does is
they do. Who is your next

290
00:15:37,037 --> 00:15:39,907
favorite in line? Another
thing to look at is Tom.

291
00:15:39,973 --> 00:15:41,642
Tiffany is unopposed in the
Republican primary. There's

292
00:15:41,708 --> 00:15:43,610
still 30% undecided there.
>> Now they're.

293
00:15:43,677 --> 00:15:45,913
>> Finding they're going to
vote for the Republican.

294
00:15:45,979 --> 00:15:48,982
But I think you can take
that 30%, put it over and

295
00:15:49,049 --> 00:15:51,118
compare it to the 48% for
the Democrats and go, okay,

296
00:15:51,185 --> 00:15:53,887
there's just a lot of
people that either aren't

297
00:15:53,954 --> 00:15:56,023
tuned in yet, or they're
waiting to the last minute

298
00:15:56,089 --> 00:15:58,125
to figure out who is
actually the frontrunner.

299
00:15:58,192 --> 00:16:01,094
Who do I trust to be the
candidate for my my

300
00:16:01,161 --> 00:16:04,865
favorite party?
>> You can hear the full

301
00:16:04,932 --> 00:16:07,634
episode of Inside Wisconsin
Politics wherever you get

302
00:16:07,701 --> 00:16:11,205
your podcasts. A state
Democratic Party backed

303
00:16:11,271 --> 00:16:14,074
lawsuit seeks to block the
Wisconsin Elections

304
00:16:14,141 --> 00:16:16,643
Commission guidance that
says voters who have

305
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:19,279
returned their absentee
ballots cannot request a

306
00:16:19,346 --> 00:16:23,550
new ballot if the candidate
they voted for drops out.

307
00:16:23,617 --> 00:16:26,720
Candidates like Sarah
Rodriguez and Missy Hughes,

308
00:16:26,787 --> 00:16:29,489
the elections commission
ruled that only a ballot

309
00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:32,526
that a voter made a mistake
on or is damaged and that

310
00:16:32,593 --> 00:16:36,563
they still have in their
possession, can be spoiled

311
00:16:36,630 --> 00:16:39,700
and returned for a new one.
But that guidance comes

312
00:16:39,766 --> 00:16:43,670
after a series of court
cases that seem confusing.

313
00:16:43,737 --> 00:16:46,340
We turn to Bryna Godar,
attorney with the State

314
00:16:46,406 --> 00:16:49,476
Democracy Research
Initiative at the

315
00:16:49,543 --> 00:16:51,245
University of Wisconsin Law
School, and thanks for

316
00:16:51,311 --> 00:16:54,548
being here.
>> So I want to just back

317
00:16:54,615 --> 00:16:57,584
up a little bit to set
those court cases up. It

318
00:16:57,651 --> 00:16:59,920
was a 2022 lawsuit where a
Waukesha County judge ruled

319
00:16:59,987 --> 00:17:02,589
that the elections
commission had to rescind

320
00:17:02,656 --> 00:17:06,293
its guidance, allowing for
the spoiling of ballots. A

321
00:17:06,360 --> 00:17:09,196
state appeals court
eventually repealed that

322
00:17:09,263 --> 00:17:13,133
ruling. So why don't
previous rules allowing

323
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,436
casting a new absentee
ballot up to three times

324
00:17:16,503 --> 00:17:20,841
for any reason prevail
under the appeals court

325
00:17:21,542 --> 00:17:24,678
repeal of that ban?
>> It's because the appeals

326
00:17:24,745 --> 00:17:28,282
court ruling was not
actually on the merits. So

327
00:17:28,348 --> 00:17:31,585
they overruled the lower
court on this technical

328
00:17:31,652 --> 00:17:35,122
procedural issue and didn't
reach the merits of what

329
00:17:35,189 --> 00:17:37,658
the Wisconsin statute
actually requires or allows.

330
00:17:37,724 --> 00:17:40,460
And so that means it's
still somewhat ambiguous.

331
00:17:40,527 --> 00:17:43,730
And so the Wisconsin
Elections Commission is

332
00:17:43,797 --> 00:17:47,034
free to interpret the
statute how it thinks is

333
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:49,036
appropriate. And there are
questions of why it

334
00:17:49,102 --> 00:17:50,871
switched from its prior
interpretation, which is

335
00:17:50,938 --> 00:17:54,308
what was challenged in 2022
to what they issued this

336
00:17:54,374 --> 00:17:57,444
month. But essentially, we
don't have a court ruling

337
00:17:57,511 --> 00:18:00,380
providing certainty on what
these statutes mean.

338
00:18:00,447 --> 00:18:02,482
>> How unusual is this
circumstance with two

339
00:18:02,549 --> 00:18:04,685
candidates dropping out and
one reentering, with

340
00:18:04,751 --> 00:18:08,655
absentee voting already
underway, with like 90,000

341
00:18:08,722 --> 00:18:11,491
ballots already cast.
>> It is something that has

342
00:18:11,558 --> 00:18:14,761
come up before where
candidates leave the race

343
00:18:14,828 --> 00:18:17,331
during this period after
absentee ballots go out.

344
00:18:17,397 --> 00:18:20,534
And that is part of why
proponents of ballot

345
00:18:20,601 --> 00:18:23,103
spoiling think that it
should be allowed at this

346
00:18:23,170 --> 00:18:25,305
stage is because there are
folks who have cast their

347
00:18:25,372 --> 00:18:27,875
absentee ballots, and their
candidate might no longer

348
00:18:27,941 --> 00:18:29,977
be in the race.
>> What about elections

349
00:18:30,043 --> 00:18:32,446
Commission guidance to
clerks being so close to

350
00:18:32,513 --> 00:18:35,649
the August 11th primary?
>> That is another issue

351
00:18:35,716 --> 00:18:39,219
that the plaintiffs
challenging this change are

352
00:18:39,286 --> 00:18:41,622
arguing and pointing to is
that voters who return

353
00:18:41,688 --> 00:18:45,092
their ballots before that
guidance thought that they

354
00:18:45,158 --> 00:18:47,594
could potentially then
change their ballots after

355
00:18:47,661 --> 00:18:50,130
the fact if something
developed in the campaigns

356
00:18:50,197 --> 00:18:53,033
and at least one voter in
the case is saying that he

357
00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:55,169
would have held off on
submitting his absentee

358
00:18:55,235 --> 00:18:57,070
ballot had he known that he
couldn't change it at a

359
00:18:57,137 --> 00:19:00,474
later date.
>> How could the lawsuit on

360
00:19:00,541 --> 00:19:03,544
behalf of these three
Democratic voters against

361
00:19:03,610 --> 00:19:07,614
that newer guidance upend
the election?

362
00:19:07,681 --> 00:19:11,385
>> It could potentially
change how clerks are

363
00:19:11,451 --> 00:19:13,954
having to handle absentee
ballots in the lead up to

364
00:19:14,021 --> 00:19:17,324
the election. So it depends
on how quickly a court acts

365
00:19:17,391 --> 00:19:19,626
in providing some
definitive guidance on this

366
00:19:19,693 --> 00:19:22,362
issue.
>> Would it end up then

367
00:19:22,963 --> 00:19:25,065
running its course all the
way up to the state Supreme

368
00:19:25,132 --> 00:19:28,235
Court? Potentially,
potentially.

369
00:19:28,302 --> 00:19:30,537
where the courts would try
to act in an expedited

370
00:19:30,604 --> 00:19:33,273
manner, and if it did get
appealed to the state

371
00:19:33,340 --> 00:19:35,809
Supreme Court, they would
try to have it act in an

372
00:19:35,876 --> 00:19:39,012
expedited way.
quite expedited.

373
00:19:40,214 --> 00:19:42,249
see in something with this
short of a timeline, the

374
00:19:42,316 --> 00:19:44,451
lower court ruling is the
one that stands.

375
00:19:44,518 --> 00:19:47,154
>> So what do you make of
the merits of the Democrats

376
00:19:47,221 --> 00:19:50,190
lawsuit?
different claims that are

377
00:19:50,257 --> 00:19:52,392
being brought. One is
statutory and a couple are

378
00:19:52,459 --> 00:19:54,361
constitutional. And the
statutory issue is really

379
00:19:54,428 --> 00:19:56,563
reviving the issue that was
litigated in the case that

380
00:19:56,630 --> 00:19:59,533
we talked about at the
beginning of what do

381
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,135
Wisconsin statutes actually
allow? And they pretty

382
00:20:02,202 --> 00:20:05,205
clearly allow voters to get
a replacement ballot if

383
00:20:05,272 --> 00:20:08,408
they mess up before
returning it to clerks.

384
00:20:08,475 --> 00:20:10,711
There's a lot less
certainty on whether the

385
00:20:10,777 --> 00:20:13,881
statute allows you to do
that. If you want to change

386
00:20:13,947 --> 00:20:15,916
your ballot after you've
already returned it, and we

387
00:20:15,983 --> 00:20:18,719
still don't have a clear
issue or a clear ruling on

388
00:20:18,785 --> 00:20:20,821
that issue, the
constitutional issues are

389
00:20:20,888 --> 00:20:24,057
then raising voting rights
claims and equal protection

390
00:20:24,124 --> 00:20:26,894
claims, and arguing that if
you can't change your

391
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,530
ballot after a candidate
drops out or you realize

392
00:20:29,596 --> 00:20:31,632
later that you've made a
mistake, that means that

393
00:20:31,698 --> 00:20:33,734
you're not having the
opportunity to vote for the

394
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,303
candidate of your choice,
which is a really important

395
00:20:36,370 --> 00:20:38,505
part of the right to vote.
And then the equal

396
00:20:38,572 --> 00:20:41,074
protection raises these
issues related to the

397
00:20:41,141 --> 00:20:44,178
timing of the wet guidance,
and some voters potentially

398
00:20:44,244 --> 00:20:45,979
having the opportunity to
spoil their ballots before

399
00:20:46,046 --> 00:20:48,148
that, but not those who
cast their ballots later.

400
00:20:48,215 --> 00:20:50,751
>> So what do you make of
the merits of the wet

401
00:20:50,817 --> 00:20:53,820
guidance.
>> So that guidance is

402
00:20:55,122 --> 00:20:58,625
rooted in a circuit court's
ruling on this issue in

403
00:20:58,692 --> 00:21:01,161
2022? So even though that
circuit court ruling no

404
00:21:01,228 --> 00:21:04,331
longer stands as having the
force of law, there was a

405
00:21:04,398 --> 00:21:06,834
court that did decide that
Wisconsin statutes don't

406
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:10,504
allow for this. And so WECA
is looking to that,

407
00:21:10,571 --> 00:21:13,373
presumably in issuing this
guidance to be in line with

408
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:15,209
that court case.
>> Pretty complicated.

409
00:21:15,275 --> 00:21:17,845
>> Yes.
>> All right. Bryna Godar,

410
00:21:17,911 --> 00:21:19,713
thank you for spelling it
out for us.

411
00:21:19,780 --> 00:21:23,584
>> Thank you.
>> Over one night this week,

412
00:21:24,985 --> 00:21:26,887
Wisconsin volunteers fanned
out to find the number of

413
00:21:26,954 --> 00:21:29,823
people experiencing
homelessness in what's

414
00:21:29,890 --> 00:21:33,827
called a point in time
count. There are some 5000

415
00:21:33,894 --> 00:21:36,763
people without shelter in
the state, and now ten

416
00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:39,566
counties in northeast
Wisconsin are scrambling to

417
00:21:39,633 --> 00:21:43,504
find places for people to
stay after a nonprofit

418
00:21:43,570 --> 00:21:46,773
provider of homeless
services abruptly closed

419
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,777
due to bankruptcy, an
organization called the

420
00:21:50,844 --> 00:21:54,014
Balance of State Continuum
of Care, which covers 69

421
00:21:54,081 --> 00:21:57,718
counties in Wisconsin, is
rushing in to respond,

422
00:21:57,784 --> 00:22:01,388
along with state agencies
and other programs. Balance

423
00:22:01,455 --> 00:22:04,224
of State homeless systems
Manager Ryan Graham joins

424
00:22:04,291 --> 00:22:07,694
us now. And Ryan, thanks
very much for being here.

425
00:22:07,761 --> 00:22:10,297
>> Thank you for having me.
>> So how many people

426
00:22:10,364 --> 00:22:13,000
served by the bankrupt
provider of services are at

427
00:22:13,066 --> 00:22:17,204
risk of homelessness in
those ten counties?

428
00:22:17,838 --> 00:22:22,109
>> Well, you know, I think
there was 134 households

429
00:22:22,176 --> 00:22:25,179
that were served in the
homeless housing programs

430
00:22:25,245 --> 00:22:29,383
that we were we were able
to maintain housing for.

431
00:22:29,449 --> 00:22:32,553
But there's a significant
amount of homeless folks

432
00:22:32,619 --> 00:22:36,190
still in that community
that are in need of housing.

433
00:22:36,256 --> 00:22:41,161
And, you know, that lack of
services and that closing

434
00:22:41,895 --> 00:22:45,933
the closing of that agency
really creates a gap in

435
00:22:45,999 --> 00:22:48,368
institutional knowledge. It
creates a gap in process

436
00:22:48,435 --> 00:22:51,338
and systems and all the
things that were

437
00:22:51,405 --> 00:22:54,374
established there, you know,
in looking for resources

438
00:22:54,441 --> 00:22:57,010
and reestablishing that is
going to take a

439
00:22:57,077 --> 00:22:59,646
considerable amount of
effort.

440
00:22:59,713 --> 00:23:02,716
>> Just, just stepping back
at at the whole picture is

441
00:23:02,783 --> 00:23:05,652
the number of people in
Wisconsin experiencing

442
00:23:05,719 --> 00:23:09,089
homelessness on the rise?
>> I would say yes. You

443
00:23:09,156 --> 00:23:11,925
know, we just did our point
in time count Wednesday. We

444
00:23:11,992 --> 00:23:16,697
are in the process of our
post count, meaning we are

445
00:23:16,763 --> 00:23:19,600
still up for a week after
our point in time count,

446
00:23:19,666 --> 00:23:22,069
and we are still looking to
engage and identify those

447
00:23:22,135 --> 00:23:24,037
folks who are connecting
with services. And that

448
00:23:24,104 --> 00:23:27,241
week prior to the council,
we can include those folks.

449
00:23:27,307 --> 00:23:31,512
And so that the data is not
out yet. But you know, we

450
00:23:31,578 --> 00:23:33,747
haven't fixed the housing
problem. We haven't fixed

451
00:23:33,814 --> 00:23:37,150
the lack of services
problem. So and

452
00:23:37,584 --> 00:23:40,521
affordability of living
just in general has not

453
00:23:40,587 --> 00:23:44,157
gotten any better. So yeah,
I do expect the housing

454
00:23:44,224 --> 00:23:46,994
problem to increase, not
decrease.

455
00:23:47,060 --> 00:23:50,097
>> Because how important is
that kind of point in time

456
00:23:50,163 --> 00:23:54,635
count toward understanding
the needs out there?

457
00:23:54,701 --> 00:23:57,371
>> It's very important. You
know, it's really our only

458
00:23:57,437 --> 00:24:00,541
data point that includes
folks that are we are

459
00:24:00,607 --> 00:24:03,177
engaging with that are
sleeping on outside. So

460
00:24:03,243 --> 00:24:05,445
unsheltered or places not
meant for habitation, folks

461
00:24:05,512 --> 00:24:08,182
that are sheltered, engaged
with housing programs, but

462
00:24:08,248 --> 00:24:13,053
also our DV population. And
so while we obviously do

463
00:24:14,388 --> 00:24:16,757
not locate everybody who's
experiencing homelessness

464
00:24:16,823 --> 00:24:20,827
in that night or the week
prior, we're really

465
00:24:20,894 --> 00:24:23,330
comfortable saying it's at
minimum, this is what our

466
00:24:23,397 --> 00:24:26,934
homeless problem is, and
it's a good place to see,

467
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,236
see trends, right? Because
of the structure and the

468
00:24:29,303 --> 00:24:31,638
way that's been set up
consistently for years.

469
00:24:31,705 --> 00:24:34,441
It's a really good data
point to look at trends and

470
00:24:34,508 --> 00:24:37,744
how homelessness is and how
we're responding to

471
00:24:37,811 --> 00:24:41,014
homelessness in Wisconsin.
>> Is there enough state,

472
00:24:41,081 --> 00:24:43,984
federal and other funding
to cover resources needed

473
00:24:44,051 --> 00:24:47,621
for this work?
>> Not even remotely. We

474
00:24:48,956 --> 00:24:53,260
are really working hard to
do as much as we can with

475
00:24:53,327 --> 00:24:56,997
pennies of what we need to
do the work, and that takes

476
00:24:57,064 --> 00:25:00,334
a collaborative effort. So
we work hard in all of our

477
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,936
counties, you know, really
to, to build that

478
00:25:03,003 --> 00:25:06,106
collaboration and work
together to try and problem

479
00:25:06,173 --> 00:25:08,375
solve and figure out
solutions for people

480
00:25:08,442 --> 00:25:11,512
experiencing homelessness.
>> As to federal funding,

481
00:25:11,578 --> 00:25:14,348
that point in time, count,
I understand, is used to

482
00:25:14,414 --> 00:25:18,118
apply for federal grants
for housing services. What

483
00:25:18,185 --> 00:25:21,355
kind of uncertainty in that
federal funding is there

484
00:25:21,421 --> 00:25:24,558
right now?
>> Yeah, I mean, I think

485
00:25:24,958 --> 00:25:27,895
there's a significant
amount of uncertainty. You

486
00:25:27,961 --> 00:25:31,298
know, I think, you know,
looking at the federal Coch

487
00:25:31,365 --> 00:25:34,501
program through HUD, you
know, they're looking at

488
00:25:34,568 --> 00:25:38,105
making significant changes
away from permanent

489
00:25:38,172 --> 00:25:40,707
supportive housing programs
that we know to be

490
00:25:40,774 --> 00:25:43,744
effective and moving more
towards transitional, non

491
00:25:43,810 --> 00:25:46,079
permanent supportive
housing, permanent

492
00:25:46,146 --> 00:25:50,784
supportive housing or
permanent housing efforts.

493
00:25:50,851 --> 00:25:53,921
You know, so I think that's
a significant change

494
00:25:53,987 --> 00:25:56,456
without protecting the
folks that were already

495
00:25:56,523 --> 00:26:00,561
housed in these programs.
And so there's a

496
00:26:00,627 --> 00:26:03,030
significant shift that is
going to provide, I think,

497
00:26:03,096 --> 00:26:07,401
a lot of housing insecurity
for folks who have who were

498
00:26:07,467 --> 00:26:10,904
previously homeless now are
securely housed. And we

499
00:26:10,971 --> 00:26:12,906
don't know what that's
going to look like here

500
00:26:12,973 --> 00:26:15,242
moving forward. So there's
a lot of uncertainty that

501
00:26:15,309 --> 00:26:18,212
way.
Graham, thanks very much.

502
00:26:18,745 --> 00:26:21,682
>> Yeah. Happy to.
>> For more on this and

503
00:26:21,748 --> 00:26:24,017
other issues facing
Wisconsin, visit our

504
00:26:24,084 --> 00:26:26,653
website at PBS
wisconsin.org and then

505
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,756
click on the news tab.
That's our program for

506
00:26:29,823 --> 00:26:33,060
tonight. I'm Frederica
Freyberg.

507
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:45,939
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

508
00:26:46,006 --> 00:26:50,677
Fund for Journalism and
friends of PBS Wisconsin.