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>> The following program is
a PBS Wisconsin original

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production.
>> Whiplash at the Capitol.

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This week as a Republican
candidate for governor.

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Whip Democratic votes to
kill a bipartisan bill.

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[MUSIC]
And with warmer temps and

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more ticks, cases of Lyme
disease are on the rise.

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[MUSIC]
I'm Frederica Freyberg.

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Tonight on "Here& Now", a
full breakdown of the

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political mashup that held
more drama than results.

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And we hear from the bills,
cheerleaders and

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challengers.
[MUSIC]

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infections has physicians
cautioning for education

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and prevention. It's "Here&
Now" for May 15th.

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[MUSIC]
>> Funding for Here and Now

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is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

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Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> A deal that made strange

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bedfellows of Republican
candidate for governor Tom

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Tiffany and Democratic
state lawmakers fell apart

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this week. Governor Tony
Evers and Republican

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legislative leaders had
negotiated a $1.8 billion

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spending package that sent
$600 million more to K-12

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schools, including half of
that for special education.

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The spending designed to
lower property taxes. It

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also eliminated taxes on
tips and overtime, and gave

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$850 million of the state's
projected $2.5 billion

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budget surplus, directly
back to income taxpayers,

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in the form of $300 checks
to singles and $600 for

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married filers. But when it
went to the full

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legislature, the state
Senate voted it down with

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three Republicans and all
Democrats rejecting the

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plan. Tom Tiffany had come
out earlier lambasting the

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measure, calling it an
Evers backroom deal, saying

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it's, quote, another
Madison gimmick that fails

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to deliver lasting tax
relief for Wisconsin

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taxpayers that put him in
sync with Democrats like

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Senator Mark Spreitzer.
>> This is money that is

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simply not targeted to
those who are actually

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hurting in this economy.
And with a price tag that

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we simply don't have the
money to actually fund.

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>> For his part, Governor
Evers torched Tiffany,

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saying he purportedly made
phone calls to help tank

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the deal and that needed
investments and tax

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reductions wouldn't happen
because some Republicans

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and Democrats would, quote,
rather do what's best for

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the next election than
what's right for the people

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of our state. Of those who
voted no, many didn't care

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for the fact the package
was hatched by leaders not

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running for reelection and
a lame duck governor also

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not running. The bill saw
bipartisan passage in the

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state Assembly, with ten
Dems voting in favor, along

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with all Republicans, among
them Republican

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Representative Toni Kurz of
Wonewoc, vice chair of the

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Joint Finance Committee. He
joins us now. And thanks a

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lot for being here.
>> Oh my pleasure. Thank

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you for having me.
>> So how surprised were

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you that this blew up and
failed?

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>> I was incredibly shocked.
I'm actually you know,

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we're how many days after
the fact and I'm still I'm

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still a little shocked and
dismayed, to be very, very

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frank with you.
>> Why?

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>> I just think it's a good
package. Really? Since

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January, we've been working
with the governor in good

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faith on this. So for those
that say this was done out

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of the blue, that is not
true. This is something

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that we've been working on.
And anybody inside the

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Madison bubble know we've
been working on that.

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That's what kind of shocks
me the most that we

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couldn't get this across
the finish line, even

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though people knew we were
working on this personally.

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And I'm just speaking for
me. I hope the governor

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calls us back in for a
special session. I really

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do.
>> On this or other matters.

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>> On this particular
matter. I mean, what what

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bothers me the most about
this entire package is, you

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know, you have some of my
Republican colleagues that,

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you know, obviously, you
know, they want to save the

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money for a large tax cut
next year. Okay. That's

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fine. And then you have my
Democrat colleagues that

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obviously want to save all
this money for next session

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because, you know, they
they have their various

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programs that they want to
do. The problem is people

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are hurting right now. And
the further we keep pushing

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this down, the down the
road is we're another year

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behind.
pot sweeteners that were

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going back and forth?
>> The property tax

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exemption for disabled
veterans, that was part of

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a sweetener. That is
something incredibly

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important to those
organizations. We thought

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that was going to help
disaster relief. That is

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something that and that's
had broad bipartisan

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support as well. You know,
in my area, we had just had

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some tornadoes a couple of
weeks ago, you know, up in

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the Wausau area, in the
Milwaukee area, the

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flooding last year. So we
thought that was a way to,

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to sweeten the pot. But
once again, this is this is

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an opportunity for them to
come back to us and say,

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hey, we'd like to maybe see
this. Or I'd like to say

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that they wouldn't even
entertain that. That's

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what's kind of frustrating
about the whole thing. We

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got to the point where, you
know, they didn't even want

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to sit down and talk in a
reasonable way.

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>> Just coming back around
on this a bit. Tom Tiffany

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also called the measures in
this temporary gimmicks.

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What about that?
>> I don't know, tax on

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tips and no tax on overtime
as a gimmick. I, I, I

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respectfully disagree with
that. You know the the

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special education funding
once again that that is and

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if you want anybody to
blame in like the state

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legislature on who really
is a hawk on, on the

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special ed, it's me because
as you know from your

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experience, once we put
money into special

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education funding,
regardless of what the

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economy does, that is money
we as a state can never

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pull back because we have a
federal requirement. Once

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we put a dollar amount in
special education, it has

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to stay there. We can never
claw that back if we have

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another horrible economy.
So I am a little careful on

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what we do for special ed.
Do we need to do it?

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Absolutely. And so to say
that's a gimmick. Once

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again, I respectfully
disagree with that. That's

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permanent funding for our
schools. So I, I disagree

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on on the premise on both
of those.

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>> So as to the economy,
some people wanted to be

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prudent, hold on to any
projected surplus in case

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it sours, you know,
potentially more than it

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has. What about that
persuasion?

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>> You know, I, I've heard
that that's an argument

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some have tried to make.
The fact of the matter is,

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we had a really good state
budget coming out of the

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state budget late fall. We
saw our projection numbers

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higher than anticipated
just in January. You know,

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the numbers really like our
economy is doing better

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than we anticipated, even
on Monday. You know, Monday,

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the fiscal Bureau and
wonderful Bob Lang and his

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incredible team over there
came out with another. It's

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going to be another $300
million that we are above

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projections. So I would
never. And let me repeat

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this, I would never sign or
vote on a bill if I knew

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that was going to put us in
financial peril. That's not

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the way we've been doing
budgeting over the last 4

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or 5 budgets. We live
within our means, and this

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budget and the proposal
that unfortunately failed

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Wednesday night lives
within our means. Once

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again, people think about
if this was all said and

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done, we'd still probably
will well over have

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probably nine 800 to 900
million $1 million in our

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checking account. But then
a lot of people don't

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forget about the rainy day
fund. Rainy day fund is

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like our savings account,
and that's well over $2

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billion and that's earning
interest. It's almost $7.5

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million a month just in
interest. So financially,

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the state is doing very
well. And I would never

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once again, I never would
put any of that in jeopardy

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if there was a question
about if we could not

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afford this or not.
>> Representative Tony

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Kurtz, thank you very much
for joining us.

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>> Hey, thank you for your
time. I hope you have a

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good, good weekend.
help us better understand

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the broader motivations and
implications of this deal,

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we turn to our reporters at
Inside Wisconsin Politics

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Zac Schultz of PBS
Wisconsin and Shawn Johnson

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and Rich Kremer from
Wisconsin Public Radio.

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>> To me, this is a
political Rorschach test.

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How you view this
particular deal kind of

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matches your view on
politics for some people

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and for a lot of ordinary
people around the state,

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this was the epitome of a
compromise. And as we're

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about to run for election,
those are things that

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normally you'd want to see
politicians pass. The other

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side of that test is
political purity. And there

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are a lot of people looking
at this deal saying, this

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isn't as good as I would
like it to be, and I think

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we can do better when we
have more power next year.

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>> We had a very unusual
scene kind of play out. The

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assembly met after waiting
all day to see what the

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Senate was going to do.
They passed this bill in

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short order. The Senate is
meeting at the same time,

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and it's clear that things
are not going well there.

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And this bill actually
fails on a vote of 15 to 18.

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And I know people probably
think big deal things pass,

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things fail. Bills don't
actually get to the point

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of failure hardly ever in
the state legislature. If

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it doesn't have the votes,
it does not come to the

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floor, especially something
as big and dramatic as this.

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And for the governor to
negotiate this and his

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Senate Democrats stand
unified against it to help

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kill it with a few
Republicans is something we

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do not see every day. Zac,
what do you think was

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motivating Senate Democrats
here?

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>> There's two factors. I
think. First is they were

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insulted. They were left
out of the loop.

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>> That is huge, actually.
>> That everyone knows they

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need at least a couple
Democratic votes and

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probably more so. The fact
that they were not

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consulted did not have any
input on this bill, and

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made it clear from the very
first time it was announced

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that they were unhappy with
it, showed the second part

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of why Senate Democrats
were not in line with this

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comes next fall. And that's
what the reelection there.

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They are not quite certain,
but very confident that

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they're going to flip the
majority in that chamber

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and that when they come to
power in the next session,

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they will not only have a
say, they will be the

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deciding factors in how any
bills are passed and how

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00:11:04,798 --> 00:11:07,134
budgets are passed, and so
they can direct where that

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money goes. And if they
think they get lucky and

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there's a Democratic
assembly, then they're

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going to say, all this
money will be available for

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us to spend in ways that we
prefer instead of having to

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compromise.
clear cut case where

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circumstances matter
completely. You know, if if

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Tony Evers were running for
election in November and he

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said, this is my big bill,
Democrats, this is what I

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want to run on. I mean,
they would have voted. They

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would have voted yes. No.
Republicans probably

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wouldn't have brought it up
in that case. So, you know,

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it's a it's a theoretical
exercise. But but Senate

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Democrats, I'm confident,
would have been with him.

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He is not on the ballot,
though, this November, as

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Diane Hesselbein noted, and
Senate Democrats are poised

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00:11:50,544 --> 00:11:54,147
to. They think, take that
majority. She has

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00:11:54,214 --> 00:11:55,716
essentially been a co
majority leader on some of

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the big bills that have
come through the Senate

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this year, from the budget
to gambling. And so to

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freeze them out of talks
like this, which is the way

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they viewed it, certainly,
and to end up with a bill

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that was pretty Republican
in nature, about a billion

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and a half in tax cuts, was
not something that they

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enjoyed, you know.
>> Well. And don't forget,

230
00:12:17,104 --> 00:12:19,273
there is another factor
when it comes to everyone

231
00:12:19,339 --> 00:12:22,109
looking at the next budget
and the next year. And that

232
00:12:22,176 --> 00:12:25,045
is there's a lot of people
who think we may be looking

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00:12:25,112 --> 00:12:27,214
into a recession. Yeah. So
most of this surplus is a

234
00:12:27,281 --> 00:12:29,917
projection of what the
economy is going to bring

235
00:12:29,983 --> 00:12:31,919
in for tax revenues. If
there's an economic

236
00:12:31,985 --> 00:12:34,021
downturn in the next six
months, that money

237
00:12:34,087 --> 00:12:36,056
disappears all by itself
without having been sent

238
00:12:36,123 --> 00:12:39,159
out. So you send it out.
Even though most of this is

239
00:12:39,226 --> 00:12:42,162
one time spending, it may
not be there next year. Now,

240
00:12:42,229 --> 00:12:44,264
they say even in the worst
of circumstances, at least

241
00:12:44,331 --> 00:12:47,100
the state will have a
little bit money to start

242
00:12:47,167 --> 00:12:49,369
the next year with. So that
is a legitimate concern

243
00:12:49,436 --> 00:12:51,238
considering where gas
prices and grocery prices

244
00:12:51,305 --> 00:12:54,308
are right now. And with no
end to a war in Iran, that

245
00:12:54,374 --> 00:12:56,777
the economy could shift and
go down and these tax

246
00:12:56,844 --> 00:12:58,645
revenues may not
materialize.

247
00:12:58,712 --> 00:13:01,448
>> Rich, one question I had
for you that we kind of

248
00:13:01,515 --> 00:13:03,550
traded notes on throughout
the night was, will voters

249
00:13:03,617 --> 00:13:06,787
actually remember this?
Like, will anybody be

250
00:13:06,854 --> 00:13:10,457
rewarded or punished?
>> You know, it's it's a

251
00:13:10,524 --> 00:13:15,262
huge question. You all of
what you're saying makes

252
00:13:15,329 --> 00:13:18,699
sense to me, someone who's
been really following this.

253
00:13:18,765 --> 00:13:22,569
But, you know, I also
remember being at a Supreme

254
00:13:22,636 --> 00:13:24,805
Court election night event
and a fellow at the hotel

255
00:13:24,872 --> 00:13:27,140
not knowing there was an
election that day. So

256
00:13:27,207 --> 00:13:29,843
there's a part of me I'm
always skeptical that this

257
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:32,546
sort of thing will stick in
voters mind. It's different,

258
00:13:32,613 --> 00:13:35,382
I guess, if you're getting
your door knocked

259
00:13:35,449 --> 00:13:37,417
consistently and people are
reminding you of that, or

260
00:13:37,484 --> 00:13:39,753
if you see a lot of
commercials. But, you know,

261
00:13:39,820 --> 00:13:43,724
in the grand scheme of
things, a $300, $600 check,

262
00:13:43,790 --> 00:13:46,560
that's a big deal. But, you
know, all the political

263
00:13:46,627 --> 00:13:48,529
infighting and everything
like that, I just I'm not

264
00:13:48,595 --> 00:13:51,565
sure if people will carry
that all the way to

265
00:13:51,632 --> 00:13:54,468
November.
>> A provision in the

266
00:13:54,535 --> 00:13:57,905
spending package would have
given $50 million in state

267
00:13:57,971 --> 00:14:01,275
aid to Wisconsin technical
colleges, the aim being to

268
00:14:01,341 --> 00:14:04,912
reduce the burden on local
property taxes. Technical

269
00:14:04,978 --> 00:14:09,116
colleges across the state
serve 300,000 students on

270
00:14:09,183 --> 00:14:12,986
16 campuses. Leaders of the
system report being

271
00:14:13,053 --> 00:14:15,656
underfunded by the state
and didn't like the

272
00:14:15,722 --> 00:14:18,025
provision, as it would
replace locally controlled

273
00:14:18,091 --> 00:14:21,562
funding with state
controlled aid. Wisconsin

274
00:14:21,628 --> 00:14:24,331
Technical College System
President Layla Merrifield

275
00:14:24,398 --> 00:14:27,301
joins us with more. Thanks
for being here. Thank you.

276
00:14:27,367 --> 00:14:30,838
So describe to us how
getting $50 million from

277
00:14:30,904 --> 00:14:35,142
the state is not a good
thing in your mind, right?

278
00:14:35,209 --> 00:14:37,244
>> Technical colleges are
local units of government,

279
00:14:37,311 --> 00:14:40,848
and we have always been a
state and local partnership.

280
00:14:40,914 --> 00:14:44,151
So we think both local
funding and state funding

281
00:14:44,218 --> 00:14:47,988
are both important. However,
we would like to hang on to

282
00:14:48,055 --> 00:14:50,023
the remaining property tax
levy that we have access to.

283
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:53,894
It has been capped by the
legislature, so

284
00:14:58,999 --> 00:15:01,134
rising. We are not the
cause of rising property

285
00:15:01,201 --> 00:15:03,804
taxes here. The. The issues
are.

286
00:15:03,871 --> 00:15:06,940
>> That being.
>> That being other local

287
00:15:07,007 --> 00:15:09,009
units of government. And
certainly we know that we

288
00:15:09,076 --> 00:15:11,979
have K-12 funding issues in
in Wisconsin that probably

289
00:15:12,045 --> 00:15:14,581
need to be addressed.
>> So in the last budget,

290
00:15:14,648 --> 00:15:18,785
you saw additional state
funding, but it came in $36

291
00:15:18,852 --> 00:15:22,222
million. I think less than
you requested. Is that an

292
00:15:22,289 --> 00:15:25,926
example of the uncertainty
kind of of state aid?

293
00:15:25,993 --> 00:15:28,529
>> That's exactly it. We
have not competed very well

294
00:15:28,595 --> 00:15:31,665
in recent state budgets for
lawmakers attention and

295
00:15:31,732 --> 00:15:34,902
their priorities. And
because of that, we have

296
00:15:34,968 --> 00:15:38,172
come to really think about
property taxes as as

297
00:15:38,238 --> 00:15:40,674
ballast in our in our
budget. It's a relatively

298
00:15:40,741 --> 00:15:43,477
small portion, maybe about
28% of our overall budget.

299
00:15:43,544 --> 00:15:45,946
But it's an important
portion that stabilizes our

300
00:15:46,013 --> 00:15:49,516
budgets and keeps things
reliable, flexible, and

301
00:15:49,583 --> 00:15:52,219
allows us to really be
responsive when local

302
00:15:52,286 --> 00:15:53,921
communities come to us for
help.

303
00:15:53,987 --> 00:15:56,456
>> So when you when you
looked at the numbers,

304
00:15:56,523 --> 00:15:58,692
where would it have left
the system? If the 50

305
00:15:58,759 --> 00:16:01,962
million in state aid offset
would have passed.

306
00:16:02,029 --> 00:16:04,364
>> It would have been about
10% of our overall levy

307
00:16:04,431 --> 00:16:08,602
that that went away. But
bear in mind that our

308
00:16:08,669 --> 00:16:11,271
property taxes in the
technical college system

309
00:16:11,338 --> 00:16:15,108
are only around 3.5% of the
total property tax burden

310
00:16:15,175 --> 00:16:18,045
here in Wisconsin. So it's
just not very much money.

311
00:16:18,111 --> 00:16:20,781
But it's a big deal to us
to have flexible dollars

312
00:16:20,848 --> 00:16:23,984
that we can direct where
communities are asking for

313
00:16:24,051 --> 00:16:25,619
help.
>> Were you surprised about

314
00:16:25,686 --> 00:16:29,489
this provision?
>> Surprised? No. This has

315
00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:31,692
been an ongoing
conversation in Wisconsin.

316
00:16:31,758 --> 00:16:34,294
It's certainly something
that we talk with our

317
00:16:34,361 --> 00:16:37,431
policymakers often about
and try to make the case

318
00:16:37,497 --> 00:16:40,367
that local funding is
important for our system,

319
00:16:40,434 --> 00:16:44,037
and that community and
technical colleges continue

320
00:16:44,104 --> 00:16:48,475
to make decisions in the
towns and counties where

321
00:16:48,542 --> 00:16:53,113
they are most affected, and
that we're able to respond

322
00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:57,150
when, again, there's maybe
a factory that closes and a

323
00:16:57,217 --> 00:16:59,253
lot of Wisconsinites are
laid off, or even when we

324
00:16:59,319 --> 00:17:01,421
have shortages of
firefighters and EMTs,

325
00:17:01,488 --> 00:17:03,790
things like that, which
we're experiencing right

326
00:17:03,857 --> 00:17:07,327
now in our rural areas.
>> Did it hurt you to think

327
00:17:07,394 --> 00:17:11,398
that potentially state
lawmakers and the governor

328
00:17:11,465 --> 00:17:14,234
didn't appreciate what
you're talking about there?

329
00:17:14,301 --> 00:17:16,970
>> Well, I think it's an
ongoing conversation. They

330
00:17:17,037 --> 00:17:20,140
are certainly familiar with
my side of things, and they

331
00:17:20,207 --> 00:17:22,509
have their own points of
view. But we'll we'll get

332
00:17:22,576 --> 00:17:25,112
to a compromise position
eventually, I'm sure.

333
00:17:25,179 --> 00:17:27,981
>> What challenges do state
tech colleges have right

334
00:17:28,048 --> 00:17:30,984
now?
>> Waiting lists and a lack

335
00:17:31,051 --> 00:17:34,054
of resources are are the
main things that are on my

336
00:17:34,121 --> 00:17:37,024
mind and that keep me up at
night. We have thousands of

337
00:17:37,090 --> 00:17:39,259
students who are waiting to
get into high demand, high

338
00:17:39,326 --> 00:17:42,129
paying fields. And on the
other side of that equation,

339
00:17:42,196 --> 00:17:44,898
we have employers who are
looking for our graduates.

340
00:17:44,965 --> 00:17:46,967
So we would like to put
those two people together

341
00:17:47,034 --> 00:17:51,538
and and make sure that we
can move more Wisconsin

342
00:17:51,605 --> 00:17:54,074
students toward those
careers and pathways that

343
00:17:54,141 --> 00:17:57,010
are so important to
maintaining, for example,

344
00:17:57,077 --> 00:17:59,179
our manufacturing industry
in this state, our health

345
00:17:59,246 --> 00:18:01,582
care industry in this state,
and really maintaining

346
00:18:01,648 --> 00:18:03,851
Wisconsin's quality of life.
>> What are those high

347
00:18:03,917 --> 00:18:07,254
demand fields?
>> There are many right now.

348
00:18:07,321 --> 00:18:09,523
Dental hygiene is one. We
have long waiting lists and

349
00:18:09,590 --> 00:18:12,159
we are hoping to grow,
continue to grow cohorts

350
00:18:12,226 --> 00:18:14,828
there. We recently saw a
one time funding infusion

351
00:18:14,895 --> 00:18:17,564
for that for that
particular field. But we

352
00:18:17,631 --> 00:18:20,100
need ongoing revenue to
make that happen. We are

353
00:18:20,167 --> 00:18:23,737
also seeing ongoing demand
from manufacturers. Again

354
00:18:23,804 --> 00:18:28,041
CNC machinists tool and die.
All sorts of advanced

355
00:18:28,108 --> 00:18:31,411
manufacturing fields that
continue to be in demand.

356
00:18:31,478 --> 00:18:34,448
We are also now seeing more
demand from manufacturers

357
00:18:34,515 --> 00:18:37,184
to integrate AI into their
automated processes. So we

358
00:18:37,251 --> 00:18:39,887
know that we need to invest
there, and we are seeking

359
00:18:39,953 --> 00:18:42,589
the resources to do that.
>> All right. Very quickly,

360
00:18:42,656 --> 00:18:45,058
in the next state budget
cycle, do you have concerns

361
00:18:45,125 --> 00:18:48,729
that they'll try to move
more funding for tech

362
00:18:48,795 --> 00:18:51,431
colleges over to state aid?
>> Well, again, every state

363
00:18:51,498 --> 00:18:55,035
budget is different. And in
some ways, some of those

364
00:18:55,102 --> 00:18:58,038
conversations continue to
to rise up. So we will

365
00:18:58,105 --> 00:19:00,207
continue to engage with our
policy makers and make sure

366
00:19:00,274 --> 00:19:03,076
that we do what's best for
Wisconsin.

367
00:19:03,143 --> 00:19:06,180
Merrifield, thanks very
much.

368
00:19:06,246 --> 00:19:09,550
>> In other news, with
spring starting earlier and

369
00:19:09,616 --> 00:19:12,686
warmer weather lingering
deeper into the fall, the

370
00:19:12,753 --> 00:19:17,057
tick season is expanding.
Wisconsin is already a hot

371
00:19:17,124 --> 00:19:20,294
spot for ticks in the U.S.
second in the nation after

372
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,330
some locations on the East
Coast. And with the deer

373
00:19:23,397 --> 00:19:26,333
tick prevalent across the
state, cases of Lyme

374
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,070
disease are also on the
rise, spiking already this

375
00:19:30,137 --> 00:19:34,608
month ahead of last year
and 2024 marked a record of

376
00:19:34,675 --> 00:19:38,679
nearly 2500 Lyme disease
cases in Wisconsin. Could

377
00:19:38,745 --> 00:19:42,149
that be surpassed this year?
Researchers at Gundersen

378
00:19:42,216 --> 00:19:45,252
Medical Foundation are
staying on top of the

379
00:19:45,319 --> 00:19:47,921
disease. Doctor Eric Sabin
leads the research there,

380
00:19:47,988 --> 00:19:50,824
and he joins us now. Thanks
for being here, doctor.

381
00:19:50,891 --> 00:19:53,527
>> Happy to do it.
>> How alarming is it that

382
00:19:53,594 --> 00:19:56,230
the tick population is
growing. And with it cases

383
00:19:56,296 --> 00:20:00,100
of Lyme disease.
>> Well I think that it's

384
00:20:01,368 --> 00:20:05,239
it's not going away. And I
think that as a disease in

385
00:20:05,305 --> 00:20:08,509
our region, I think we
should get pretty

386
00:20:08,575 --> 00:20:11,912
that it's a threat that
will probably become more

387
00:20:11,979 --> 00:20:14,381
common over time,
especially when you figure

388
00:20:14,448 --> 00:20:16,783
in changes to weather and
how often people are

389
00:20:16,850 --> 00:20:20,287
outside doing outdoor
recreation. It seems like a

390
00:20:20,354 --> 00:20:22,556
thing that's going to be
with us going into the

391
00:20:22,623 --> 00:20:25,158
future.
>> And so what should

392
00:20:25,225 --> 00:20:27,327
people do about that? I
know that you have said

393
00:20:27,394 --> 00:20:30,898
that, you know, prevention
is better than a cure. So

394
00:20:30,964 --> 00:20:34,101
what's the best prevention
here?

395
00:20:34,168 --> 00:20:36,603
>> Generally speaking, be
aware that if you're going

396
00:20:36,670 --> 00:20:39,239
outside and you're going to
be in a place where ticks

397
00:20:39,306 --> 00:20:41,508
might be, we know that if
you remove these things

398
00:20:41,575 --> 00:20:44,311
from you before they've had
a chance to attach for too

399
00:20:44,378 --> 00:20:46,513
long, the transmission risk
of Lyme disease is very,

400
00:20:46,580 --> 00:20:49,650
very low or negligible. So
we recommend people be very

401
00:20:49,716 --> 00:20:52,586
vigilant to that sort of
thing before they once they

402
00:20:52,653 --> 00:20:54,888
come back in from a
recreational outing.

403
00:20:54,955 --> 00:20:57,691
>> If you do a contract
Lyme disease, is there a

404
00:20:57,758 --> 00:21:01,395
cure for it?
>> There are exceptional

405
00:21:01,461 --> 00:21:03,530
treatments. We've been
using antibiotics for a

406
00:21:03,597 --> 00:21:07,167
very, very long time. Yes,
people can be cured, but

407
00:21:07,234 --> 00:21:09,136
it's a pretty serious
illness and a lot of folks

408
00:21:09,203 --> 00:21:12,973
and certainly has no no
limits on its ability to

409
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,776
produce misery and those
who get it. But yes, we can

410
00:21:15,843 --> 00:21:17,945
usually treat people very
effectively, especially if

411
00:21:18,011 --> 00:21:21,148
we catch the disease early.
>> So what are some of the

412
00:21:21,215 --> 00:21:25,552
worst symptoms of it?
>> The ones that patients

413
00:21:26,153 --> 00:21:28,155
have told me are the most
disturbing are the ones

414
00:21:28,222 --> 00:21:30,757
that involve the joints.
And I've had patients that

415
00:21:30,824 --> 00:21:32,926
have very significant
problems with their

416
00:21:32,993 --> 00:21:34,695
mobility and very
significant joint pain

417
00:21:34,761 --> 00:21:38,165
going into months,
sometimes almost a year.

418
00:21:38,232 --> 00:21:40,934
And for people who are
otherwise real active or at

419
00:21:41,001 --> 00:21:43,770
a real active phase in
their life, it can it can

420
00:21:43,837 --> 00:21:46,340
significantly disrupt their,
major degree.

421
00:21:46,406 --> 00:21:50,978
>> So does it matter if it
is diagnosed and treated

422
00:21:51,678 --> 00:21:55,949
early versus later?
>> The way that the disease

423
00:21:56,016 --> 00:21:58,986
operates is that it
produces inflammatory

424
00:21:59,052 --> 00:22:01,288
reactions in the human body
that that have a tendency

425
00:22:01,355 --> 00:22:04,291
to progress, change, and
worsen over the course of

426
00:22:04,358 --> 00:22:06,793
time if the infection is
not treated. Generally

427
00:22:06,860 --> 00:22:08,996
speaking, it's better if
you take care of it sooner

428
00:22:09,062 --> 00:22:12,232
rather than later. Lots of
the cases don't get

429
00:22:12,299 --> 00:22:14,168
recognized until weeks or
even months have elapsed,

430
00:22:14,234 --> 00:22:17,404
and at that point, the
symptoms have oftentimes

431
00:22:17,471 --> 00:22:20,240
been much more dramatic.
But generally speaking,

432
00:22:20,307 --> 00:22:22,709
it's a good idea to try to
get antibiotic treatment

433
00:22:22,776 --> 00:22:25,812
for people very soon, and
they have a tendency not to

434
00:22:25,879 --> 00:22:29,483
then progress into the real
serious joint or cardiac or

435
00:22:29,550 --> 00:22:30,984
neurological complications
after that.

436
00:22:31,051 --> 00:22:35,389
>> How would you know that
that you had it early?

437
00:22:36,089 --> 00:22:38,559
>> Well, there are
certainly tests that we can

438
00:22:38,625 --> 00:22:40,961
use. A lot of things in
medicine depend on clinical

439
00:22:41,028 --> 00:22:44,298
context. And so the it
starts with somebody

440
00:22:44,364 --> 00:22:47,234
seeking care and bringing
up the idea that they may

441
00:22:47,301 --> 00:22:50,137
have been outside or may
have had tick bites or may

442
00:22:50,204 --> 00:22:52,339
have been exposed to ticks.
And then it relies on the

443
00:22:52,406 --> 00:22:55,108
part of the health care
provider to recognize that

444
00:22:55,175 --> 00:22:57,678
it's in our area. And it
has a pretty diverse array

445
00:22:57,744 --> 00:23:00,347
of presentations. And so
you combine, you know, the

446
00:23:00,414 --> 00:23:02,683
right place at the right
time kind of risk factor

447
00:23:02,749 --> 00:23:05,986
profile with the person
presenting with the right

448
00:23:06,053 --> 00:23:08,622
And at that instance, you
know, you take action, you

449
00:23:08,689 --> 00:23:10,624
can give people treatment.
A lot of times you can

450
00:23:10,691 --> 00:23:12,526
prevent things from getting
much worse.

451
00:23:12,593 --> 00:23:14,595
>> So has research
developed good tests to

452
00:23:14,661 --> 00:23:18,265
diagnose Lyme disease?
>> I'm biased. I think that

453
00:23:18,332 --> 00:23:21,235
the testing can work and
can be effective in some

454
00:23:21,301 --> 00:23:23,504
circumstances, but it has a
lot of limits by virtue of

455
00:23:23,570 --> 00:23:26,306
how it works. Most of the
present testing is based on

456
00:23:26,373 --> 00:23:29,009
immunological reactions
through a process we call

457
00:23:29,076 --> 00:23:31,879
serology. And there are
pros and cons to that.

458
00:23:31,945 --> 00:23:35,516
Those tests have advantages
and that they can show us

459
00:23:35,582 --> 00:23:37,317
immunological reactivity
and recognition, but they

460
00:23:37,384 --> 00:23:40,487
also can be very difficult
to interpret. They don't

461
00:23:40,554 --> 00:23:43,123
behave, so to speak, the
way that a lot of other

462
00:23:43,190 --> 00:23:45,259
serological tests do,
because it's a strange

463
00:23:45,325 --> 00:23:48,795
disease and we don't really
have tests that I think are

464
00:23:48,862 --> 00:23:50,230
colloquially as well
understood as something

465
00:23:50,297 --> 00:23:52,599
like a pregnancy test. A
pregnancy test doesn't

466
00:23:52,666 --> 00:23:55,802
leave much doubt about what
the result means. The

467
00:23:55,869 --> 00:23:58,105
problem with Lyme disease
testing in current use is,

468
00:23:58,172 --> 00:24:00,474
is that it's just simply
not that straightforward.

469
00:24:00,541 --> 00:24:03,577
In a lot of cases, it can
be ambiguous.

470
00:24:03,644 --> 00:24:07,314
>> And so in that instance,
if the results are

471
00:24:07,381 --> 00:24:12,386
ambiguous, should a patient
ask to be treated anyway.

472
00:24:13,420 --> 00:24:15,889
>> I would suggest that any
patient have an individual

473
00:24:15,956 --> 00:24:17,724
discussion with their
provider and make some

474
00:24:17,791 --> 00:24:20,194
decision making on what
makes sense for the risk

475
00:24:20,260 --> 00:24:23,263
benefit. Pros and cons you
know scenario. You should

476
00:24:23,330 --> 00:24:25,899
always be forthright with
your doctors about what you

477
00:24:25,966 --> 00:24:28,435
know you think is going on.
And health care

478
00:24:28,502 --> 00:24:31,371
practitioners should be
attentive and mindful of

479
00:24:31,438 --> 00:24:33,941
what patients might have
experienced in medical

480
00:24:34,007 --> 00:24:35,742
school. They told me, you
can't diagnose what you

481
00:24:35,809 --> 00:24:38,545
don't think of. And a lot
of times things that are

482
00:24:38,612 --> 00:24:40,447
not being considered are
diagnoses that can get

483
00:24:40,514 --> 00:24:43,050
missed or delayed.
>> Well, thank you for

484
00:24:43,116 --> 00:24:45,919
doing that work, doctor
Sabin, thanks for joining

485
00:24:45,986 --> 00:24:47,421
us.
>> I appreciate it. Thank

486
00:24:47,487 --> 00:24:51,358
you very much.
>> Finally tonight we relay

487
00:24:51,425 --> 00:24:55,996
the news with sadness that
Jon Miskowski, our PBS

488
00:24:56,063 --> 00:24:58,866
Wisconsin director of
television, has passed away

489
00:24:58,932 --> 00:25:03,537
following a long battle
with cancer. Jon Miskowski

490
00:25:03,604 --> 00:25:08,675
was director since 2015.
Originally from Stevens

491
00:25:08,742 --> 00:25:12,312
Point, he started his
career here as a volunteer

492
00:25:12,379 --> 00:25:16,717
at a TV back in 1984.
John's vision brought many

493
00:25:17,885 --> 00:25:21,855
firsts to this station,
including LS Lambeau

494
00:25:21,922 --> 00:25:24,324
welcoming home Wisconsin's
Vietnam veterans.

495
00:25:24,391 --> 00:25:27,628
>> I want to thank you from
my heart.

496
00:25:29,530 --> 00:25:33,867
>> Other initiatives John
developed include. PBS

497
00:25:33,934 --> 00:25:36,336
Wisconsin Education,
Wisconsin Hometown Stories

498
00:25:36,403 --> 00:25:40,641
and Tribal Histories. Upon
his retirement earlier this

499
00:25:40,707 --> 00:25:44,511
month, John said, my 40
years in public television,

500
00:25:44,578 --> 00:25:48,482
including my time as PBS
Wisconsin director of

501
00:25:48,549 --> 00:25:51,118
television, have been a
source of inspiring

502
00:25:51,185 --> 00:25:56,456
challenges and creative joy
from all of us here at PBS

503
00:25:56,523 --> 00:26:00,494
Wisconsin. Thank you, John,
for your leadership. John

504
00:26:00,561 --> 00:26:03,764
is survived by his wife,
two sons, and the light of

505
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:08,735
his life. His granddaughter,
Jon Miskowski, was 65.

506
00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:14,842
[MUSIC]
life and legacy at PBS

507
00:26:17,377 --> 00:26:19,813
wisconsin.org. That's our
program for tonight. I'm

508
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:23,784
Frederica Freyberg. Have a
good weekend.

509
00:26:43,070 --> 00:26:44,104
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

510
00:26:44,171 --> 00:26:46,273
is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

511
00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:48,809
friends of PBS Wisconsin.