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The following program is a
PBS Wisconsin Original

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production.
>> Personal safety is top

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of mind for current and
would be elected officials

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after another threat
breaches security of the

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president and state
regulators put their foot

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down, saying Wisconsinites
will not subsidize data

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center energy costs.
[MUSIC]

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I'm Frederica Freyberg
tonight on here. And now

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the candidates running for
governor say if they fear

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for their personal safety
inside Wisconsin politics

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redistricting rulings as
advocates celebrate new

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protections from data
centers, we check in with

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the Citizens Utility Board
and local research into

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treating severe mental
health with psychedelics

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gets a boon from an
executive order. It's "Here&

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Now" for May 1st.
[MUSIC]

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>> Funding for here and Now
is provided by the Focus

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Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

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>> As the political tenor
in America continues to

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deteriorate, threats
against politicians have

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increased, some only online,
others very much real and

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in person. As part of our
continuing series on the

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most important issues of
the election for governor

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"Here& Now", senior
political reporter Zac

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Schultz asked the leading
candidates about this topic.

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>> Running for governor is
a huge commitment, but in

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the current political
environment, it means

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candidates and their
families also need to

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consider their own personal
safety when deciding to run.

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We asked the leading
candidates whether that

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factored into their
decision to enter the race,

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and if they have concerns
for their personal safety.

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>> We are in a politically
charged environment and

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it's kind of hectic out
there. I had, you know,

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somebody I had threats
before that were, you know,

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made to me. It's not a fun
thing to experience. And,

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you know, it's always back
of mind. But I can tell you

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like I'm, I'm focused on
doing what's right. I'm

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going to continue to stay
focused on what's doing

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right. Violence is
absolutely a problem. It's

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in it's an issue. It's
something that we cannot

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ignore. But I can't let
that slow me down either.

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>> No more than how
dangerous it is to drive

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here from western Wisconsin
on an icy day. You know,

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certainly it's
disappointing to see the

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level of. Noise that is
created around politics

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these days. And
Wisconsinites are looking

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bring that noise level down.
That's what I'm going to do.

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And, you know, despite
security concerns, despite

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things like that, I have
the energy to be in this

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conversation. That's what
Wisconsinites need. I don't.

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>> I love Wisconsin and I
believe in Wisconsinites,

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and I believe that they
want us to have an open

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dialog for politics. And so
I do not have any concerns

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about my personal safety.
>> It's disappointing that

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political violence has
become such a frequent

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occurrence, and I'm
fortunate to have a

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campaign team and a
community and volunteers

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across the state that I
think are going to remain

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supportive. And I, I do not
have concerns for my

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personal safety.
>> I guess I still believe

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that campaigns are about
ideas, and I absolutely I

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know that there are going
to be people who disagree

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with me and disagree with
me on the campaign. You

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know, I hope and expect
that they're going to do

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that honorably. I am more
than willing to take pot

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shots that people have
online. And, you know, and

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there's a lot of that. And,
and I, you know, I have to

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have a thick skin around
that, but I hope that we're

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at a place and I hope we
can demonstrate in

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Wisconsin that we do things
civilly.

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about it a little bit,
especially in light of the

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assassination of Charlie
Kirk and, of course, the

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attempts on President
Trump's life in 2024 where

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he almost lost his life. So
we do think about it more

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at this point, but I just I
try to tune it out because

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I'm going to do my job and.
Wisconsinites are almost

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everyone is really good
about this stuff, whether

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I'm knocking on doors,
seeing people, whatever.

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People are almost always
respectful. And I think

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it's important for us to be
out amongst the public, and

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I'm not going to stop doing
that just because some

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people have their lives
threatened.

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huge uptick in political
rhetoric and political

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violence happening all
across this country. And

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quite frankly, I'm sick and
tired of it. It is

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unfortunate that we're
seeing the level of

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violence just for being
able to deliver on behalf

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of those that we represent
every single day. And so,

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you know, whether you're a
Republican or Democrat, we

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need we really need to end
the political rhetoric in

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this violent rhetoric that
has been out there and

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really focus on how do we
make lives better for those

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that we represent?
>> I do, and it's something

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that I, I take seriously,
my staff and my family take

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it seriously. And I think
it's, it's very unfortunate

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that we have political
leaders at the very top of

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our system whose use of
violent rhetoric and

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violent actions are making
us all less safe. And as

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Americans, you know, every
one of us lives with the

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specter of gun violence.
Every time your kid walks

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out the door to school,
every time you go to church

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or a concert, you have to
think, is this going to

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become a mass shooting
event? We have to do so

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much more to help all
Americans be safe and free

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from violence. And there's
a lot that states can do to

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make that true.
>> Reporting from Madison.

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I'm Zac Schultz for Here
and Now.

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>> On this week's Inside
Wisconsin Politics, we hear

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Zac Schultz, along with
Wypr political reporter

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Shawn Johnson, rich Kremer
and Anya van Wagtendonk dig

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into why there are so many
Democratic primary

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candidates in the midterm
elections, what party

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support for a particular
candidate does or doesn't

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say about the campaigns and
examples of such races.

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Seizing grassroots efforts,
won for governor and won

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for the third Congressional
District.

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>> In the very recent past,
you had Democrats and

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liberals very wary about
jumping into primaries.

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What's changed? Zac?
>> I think the biggest

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thing that's changed is the
Democrats see more

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opportunity to win some of
these over the past 16

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years, basically in the
Scott Walker era. On when

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the maps didn't favor
Wisconsin and perhaps the

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political climate didn't
favor candidates statewide,

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there was a concern that a
primary just took up too

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many resources that were
limited, mainly money and

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time, and the threat that
if they went negative

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against each other, it
really hurt their

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opportunity to win
statewide. Since Democrats

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have gotten on a roll in 1
a lot of these races for

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governor, AG, state Supreme
Court, and they've got

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better maps, they see more
opportunity. And so there's

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more options for people to
get in, because the primary

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doesn't look quite as
devastating.

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>> Since I'm naming stuff
today, this is the don't

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tell me what to do primary,
an important distinction in

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Democratic primaries. We've
got a couple examples here

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today. Let's start with one
in the third Congressional

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District. Rich, I've heard
a lot about this district

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because it's our most
competitive congressional

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district. Derrick Van Orden
is the Republican incumbent.

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I've heard a lot about
Rebecca Cooke, the

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Democratic challenger who
has outraised him recently

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and seems to be getting a
lot of attention. There is

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a primary there who's
running.

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>> So the primary is
between Cooke, who's an Eau

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Claire Democrat raised on a
dairy farm in the county

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and, you know, has done
some political consulting

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work, fundraising work for
Democrats in years past.

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But now she's Bakke. She's
really portraying herself

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as kind of of the district,
you know, born and bred

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Wisconsin, etc. Republicans
are trying to, you know,

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focus the attention on her
consulting work, etc. The

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other Democrat is longtime
Eau Claire City Council

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member, former council
president, until just

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recently, Emily Berge of
Eau Claire. And she she's

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portraying herself as the
grassroots choice in this

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race. And national
Democrats came in and

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started sending resources,
staff, etc. back in

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February to Cooke's
campaign. And Berge said,

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well, that's pretty dirty.
You know, she essentially

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said D.C. shouldn't be
deciding who is the

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Democrat to face Van Orden.
It should be the people of

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Eau Claire. And just
anecdotally, when I'm

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walking through the city, I
don't see a lot of Cooke

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signs. In fact, I don't
remember seeing any. But I

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see a whole bunch of Berge
signs. So this being one of

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the more, if not the most
populous areas in the third

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district, maybe that makes
a difference. But in terms

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of resources, Cooke is way,
way, way ahead of Berge in

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all the fundraising reports
that I've seen.

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>> Zac, do you get the
sense that this is, you

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know, a competitive primary
here?

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>> It could be it really
depends on how much the

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primary voters pay
attention. And that's

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always the issue in some of
these primaries is name

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recognition makes a big
deal. That's why the

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National Party comes in and
puts resources behind Cooke.

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It's not necessarily that
they like her more. It's

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they think she has the
better chance to win in the

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fall and get her moving.
Now. It's the old mentality

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we talked about at the
beginning of the show of

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why didn't Democrats do
primaries in the past? It

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takes resources, it can get
ugly, it can get negative.

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It could hurt the candidate.
Going into the fall. I ran

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into Berge when she was
campaigning with Francesca

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Hong for governor in La
Crosse. They were doing an

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event at the same bookstore.
And it's not a coincidence

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that while we were talking
to them, they were talking

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about going and seeing them
at the next stop. And there

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there is a kind of thematic
fit with that campaign of

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more grassroots, more from
the bottom up and running

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against party types who
tell us who our candidates

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should be. Parties like to
dictate sometimes who the

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candidate can be so they
can focus resources.

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Sometimes that does run up
against a wall, which is

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why your title for this
Don't Tell Me What to Do,

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does fit, because there are
candidates who are going to

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say no. Let the people
decide. People have to pay

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attention, though.
there are plenty of

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examples in the recent past,
particularly among

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Republicans, where you come
out of a battle tested

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primary and you are wounded.
And it did not help them

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very much in the general
election. I think in 2018,

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Tony Evers came out of a
battle tested primary and

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was a little bit out of
money. So there is a risk

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to it, but it does also get
attention, I guess is the

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thing that it does for sure.
>> I think another piece of

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this too, is that it's very
easy to kind of present a

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unified front as a party
when you're in the minority,

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because it doesn't really
matter, right? You don't

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have power. And so we might
know that kind of behind

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the scenes, the further
left Democrats and the more

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centrist Democrats don't
then they all come forward

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and kind of vote in
alignment. And so now what

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we're seeing, because
there's a little bit more

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of a sense that perhaps
they could actually win

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things and gain power.
There's also, I think, a

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little bit of a fight for
what will the Democratic

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Party in Wisconsin look
like, vote like, will they

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be further left? Will it be
more of a Hong kind of

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situation? Will they be
more moderate, more kind of

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aligned with national
Democrats? And so I think

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we're seeing that fight
kind of play out or tension

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play out in a lot of these
primaries.

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projection shows Wisconsin
will lose more than $2

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billion in sales tax
revenue because of an

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exemption written into the
2325 state budget for data

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centers, a break designed
to promote economic

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development. Three years
later, the state is

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swimming in new data
centers with consumer

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00:12:12,299 --> 00:12:15,435
concerns about water and
energy usage. But in a win

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00:12:15,502 --> 00:12:18,272
for consumers, the
Wisconsin Public Service

235
00:12:18,338 --> 00:12:21,575
Commission just ruled that
existing electricity

236
00:12:21,642 --> 00:12:24,945
customers should not pay a
single cent to subsidize

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00:12:25,012 --> 00:12:28,682
the service of data centers.
The ruling is also a major

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00:12:28,749 --> 00:12:32,219
win for the Citizens
Utility Board, which fought

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00:12:32,286 --> 00:12:36,790
on behalf of customers.
Executive director of Cub

240
00:12:36,857 --> 00:12:39,393
Tom Content joins us now
with more. And thanks very

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00:12:39,459 --> 00:12:42,229
much for being here.
>> Oh, great to be with you.

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00:12:42,296 --> 00:12:45,799
>> So you've said that this
case was the most

243
00:12:45,866 --> 00:12:48,836
significant one the cub has
ever been involved in. So

244
00:12:48,902 --> 00:12:52,539
when the PSC ruled, what
was your reaction?

245
00:12:52,606 --> 00:12:56,243
>> I was I was frankly
surprised. I, I've had a

246
00:12:56,310 --> 00:12:59,012
good feeling that we were
going to get some of what

247
00:12:59,079 --> 00:13:01,081
we asked for in terms of
significant changes to what

248
00:13:01,148 --> 00:13:04,051
the proposal was. But we
got the vast majority of

249
00:13:04,117 --> 00:13:07,955
our changes or changes that
addressed our concerns.

250
00:13:08,021 --> 00:13:10,257
They really the
commissioner really sent a

251
00:13:10,324 --> 00:13:12,759
message, even though they
can't control every cent,

252
00:13:12,826 --> 00:13:16,630
they sent a message that
every dollar needs to be

253
00:13:16,697 --> 00:13:19,366
accounted for and every. As
they, as one of the

254
00:13:19,433 --> 00:13:21,335
commissioners put it, every
every cent should be paid

255
00:13:21,401 --> 00:13:24,204
for by the tech companies.
>> So how does the

256
00:13:24,271 --> 00:13:27,441
proliferation of data
centers in Wisconsin engage

257
00:13:27,508 --> 00:13:30,377
consumers in a way that
other rate cases may not

258
00:13:30,444 --> 00:13:32,913
have?
>> It's it's I think I

259
00:13:34,381 --> 00:13:37,684
think it's a combination of
fear of concerns about

260
00:13:37,751 --> 00:13:40,387
rising energy costs,
because we've already come

261
00:13:40,454 --> 00:13:43,323
into this period with
rising energy costs that

262
00:13:43,390 --> 00:13:47,327
have risen at rates higher
than inflation, paired with

263
00:13:47,394 --> 00:13:50,397
the the local community
reaction. And and basically

264
00:13:50,464 --> 00:13:54,968
the Wisconsin reaction, as
noted in the Marquette

265
00:13:55,035 --> 00:13:59,673
polls to data centers. And,
you know, the the Marquette

266
00:13:59,740 --> 00:14:02,142
poll that just 'came out
showed a lot more clarity

267
00:14:02,209 --> 00:14:05,279
about where Wisconsinites
stand about data centers

268
00:14:05,345 --> 00:14:08,849
than it showed about who's
running for governor. And

269
00:14:08,916 --> 00:14:11,852
they they by a 2 to 1
margin, people said that

270
00:14:11,919 --> 00:14:15,189
the cost of data centers
outweigh the benefits. And

271
00:14:15,255 --> 00:14:18,625
I think I think layered
into that is, is fear of AI

272
00:14:18,692 --> 00:14:22,129
and, and what it's what
what the the impacts of AI

273
00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:25,432
are on the economy and
society down the road. I

274
00:14:25,499 --> 00:14:27,968
think that plays into it.
>> Too, because I

275
00:14:28,035 --> 00:14:31,171
understand that thousands
of people kind of came to

276
00:14:31,238 --> 00:14:35,375
Cub and said, yes, we we
want the PSC to rule in

277
00:14:35,442 --> 00:14:38,011
this way.
>> Thousands of people went

278
00:14:38,078 --> 00:14:42,015
to the PSC hearings or PSC
hearings or submitted

279
00:14:42,082 --> 00:14:44,484
comments online. And so
those could have been

280
00:14:44,551 --> 00:14:47,387
people in Milwaukee, people
around the state, we

281
00:14:47,454 --> 00:14:50,190
energies customers and
others. I mean, frankly,

282
00:14:50,257 --> 00:14:53,160
the tech companies and the
utility were saying the

283
00:14:53,227 --> 00:14:56,463
right things all along that
they were going to meet

284
00:14:56,530 --> 00:15:00,501
their demand or that they
were going to play their

285
00:15:00,567 --> 00:15:03,337
own way. But for us, the
devil was always in the

286
00:15:03,403 --> 00:15:06,373
details, and we found some
loopholes and just areas of

287
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,109
concern where we thought
the risks that customers

288
00:15:09,176 --> 00:15:11,778
were still going to be on
the hook were too, too high

289
00:15:11,845 --> 00:15:14,781
with what was what was what
was the proposal was.

290
00:15:14,848 --> 00:15:17,985
>> So does does the ruling
mean that power company

291
00:15:18,051 --> 00:15:21,088
customers will not be on
the hook at all for the

292
00:15:21,154 --> 00:15:24,458
giant energy needs of these
data centers?

293
00:15:24,525 --> 00:15:28,028
>> They went as far as they
could. They ran into a

294
00:15:28,095 --> 00:15:30,964
couple areas where they
couldn't go as far as they

295
00:15:31,031 --> 00:15:32,799
wanted, because certain
things were out of the

296
00:15:32,866 --> 00:15:36,403
state's control. And what I
mean by that is if if

297
00:15:36,470 --> 00:15:39,339
people may have seen that
at the white House, the

298
00:15:39,406 --> 00:15:42,910
tech companies were at the
white House pledging to pay

299
00:15:42,976 --> 00:15:45,846
their own way and signed a
ratepayer protection pledge.

300
00:15:45,913 --> 00:15:48,515
Now, that was more of a,
you know, an optics

301
00:15:48,582 --> 00:15:52,352
document, a a rhetoric
document. And it was

302
00:15:52,419 --> 00:15:53,954
non-binding, but it
actually committed the tech

303
00:15:54,021 --> 00:15:56,623
companies to pay their way
for all the network

304
00:15:56,690 --> 00:15:59,726
upgrades, which which to us
sounds like the power lines,

305
00:15:59,793 --> 00:16:03,564
right. And the big power
lines. And the fact is, our

306
00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:07,434
power line company,
American transmission

307
00:16:07,501 --> 00:16:10,637
billion of infrastructure
to feed these data centers,

308
00:16:10,704 --> 00:16:13,373
is actually regulated out
in Washington, D.C. So the

309
00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,376
state Public Service
Commission couldn't change

310
00:16:16,443 --> 00:16:20,848
that. And so as a result,
the the the commissioner

311
00:16:20,914 --> 00:16:23,116
sent a message that they
could only go so far, but

312
00:16:23,183 --> 00:16:27,221
they called on HTC and the
We Energy's parent company

313
00:16:27,287 --> 00:16:31,391
to make changes that would
protect customers from,

314
00:16:31,458 --> 00:16:33,794
frankly, billions of extra
costs tied to these

315
00:16:33,861 --> 00:16:35,762
projects.
>> What else stood out for

316
00:16:35,829 --> 00:16:38,498
you from the PSC on this
case?

317
00:16:39,099 --> 00:16:43,437
>> I think what stood out
is, is that the the. The

318
00:16:45,239 --> 00:16:48,108
fact that the data centers
will be on the hook for

319
00:16:48,175 --> 00:16:51,111
100% of the new power
plants. There was one

320
00:16:51,178 --> 00:16:54,815
scenario where other
customers, small businesses,

321
00:16:54,882 --> 00:16:57,584
homeowners, renters would
be on and other businesses

322
00:16:57,651 --> 00:17:00,854
would be on the hook for up
to 25% of the cost of new

323
00:17:00,921 --> 00:17:03,490
power plants. And that's
not a small number. We

324
00:17:03,557 --> 00:17:06,493
energies has already gotten
approval for over almost 2

325
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:08,929
billion in projects and has
another 6 billion in the

326
00:17:08,996 --> 00:17:12,132
queue. So a quarter of that,
a quarter of that would

327
00:17:12,199 --> 00:17:14,735
have been a couple billion
dollars on the hook that

328
00:17:14,801 --> 00:17:16,737
customers would have been
responsible for. So. So

329
00:17:16,803 --> 00:17:21,208
that was a big the biggest
change and one that we

330
00:17:21,275 --> 00:17:24,378
really appreciated.
>> All right. Well, we

331
00:17:24,444 --> 00:17:26,847
appreciate you joining us
today on this Tom Content.

332
00:17:26,914 --> 00:17:29,583
Thanks so much.
>> Thank you.

333
00:17:30,884 --> 00:17:33,921
>> Two animal rights groups
announced a deal with a

334
00:17:33,987 --> 00:17:36,957
breeding and biomedical
testing facility to

335
00:17:37,024 --> 00:17:41,094
purchase 1500 of their dogs.
This comes following a

336
00:17:41,161 --> 00:17:44,765
failed but high profile
attempt by activists to

337
00:17:44,831 --> 00:17:47,668
break into the facility and
liberate the animals.

338
00:17:47,734 --> 00:17:51,972
Earlier this month, Ridglan
Farms was investigated for

339
00:17:52,039 --> 00:17:54,942
animal abuse but was not
charged on the condition

340
00:17:55,008 --> 00:17:57,978
they agreed to give up
their breeding license.

341
00:17:58,045 --> 00:18:00,714
Next week on our program,
we'll speak with the

342
00:18:00,781 --> 00:18:03,984
special prosecutor in that
case. But the animal rights

343
00:18:04,051 --> 00:18:08,055
group says more needs to be
done to end what it says is

344
00:18:08,121 --> 00:18:12,459
unnecessary. Biomedical
testing on animals.

345
00:18:13,393 --> 00:18:16,897
>> This system of testing
is broken. It's been broken

346
00:18:16,964 --> 00:18:21,535
for a very long time. The
data show that in more than

347
00:18:21,602 --> 00:18:26,540
90% of cases where a new
drug passes muster, in ten

348
00:18:26,607 --> 00:18:30,177
years of animal tests, when
it then goes to human

349
00:18:30,244 --> 00:18:33,714
clinical trials, it fails
more than 90% of the time.

350
00:18:33,780 --> 00:18:36,583
You know, the NBA playoffs
are happening now. If you

351
00:18:36,650 --> 00:18:40,320
had a free throw shooter
who hit one of every ten

352
00:18:40,387 --> 00:18:44,391
free throws, that person,
that player would be on the

353
00:18:44,458 --> 00:18:48,328
bench. Why is a 92% failure
rate considered some sort

354
00:18:48,395 --> 00:18:51,965
of success?
>> An executive order from

355
00:18:52,399 --> 00:18:56,036
President Donald Trump
calls for fast tracking

356
00:18:56,103 --> 00:18:59,773
research and access to
psychedelic medicines for

357
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,843
treatment of mental health
disorders, with $50 million

358
00:19:02,910 --> 00:19:05,512
in funding going to state
governments for the

359
00:19:05,579 --> 00:19:09,082
research into the
treatments, the FDA

360
00:19:09,149 --> 00:19:13,353
pinpointed three companies,
including Madison based

361
00:19:13,420 --> 00:19:16,590
Usona Institute, for its
new drug Application for

362
00:19:16,657 --> 00:19:19,726
psilocybin in major
depressive disorder. Usona

363
00:19:19,793 --> 00:19:22,930
says the designation is
reserved for therapies

364
00:19:22,996 --> 00:19:25,332
addressing critical
national health priorities

365
00:19:25,399 --> 00:19:29,536
and unmet medical needs.
The work of UW-Madison

366
00:19:29,603 --> 00:19:33,173
researchers will be part of
Usona application. The

367
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:35,909
center for Psychedelic
Research has been looking

368
00:19:35,976 --> 00:19:39,479
at the promise of
psilocybin and other

369
00:19:39,546 --> 00:19:42,115
psychedelics with human
research subjects at its

370
00:19:42,182 --> 00:19:46,553
dosing lab on campus, we
met with Professor Paul

371
00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:51,525
Hutson there to learn more.
>> Psilocybin kind of works

372
00:19:51,592 --> 00:19:54,294
by itself. We're here
primarily to protect the

373
00:19:54,361 --> 00:19:57,097
subject, reassure them if
they get anxious.

374
00:19:57,164 --> 00:20:01,401
>> So we are sitting in a
room where patients or

375
00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:06,073
research subjects are
administered psilocybin.

376
00:20:06,139 --> 00:20:09,643
What happens.
>> When somebody is coming

377
00:20:09,710 --> 00:20:11,945
in for a psychedelic dosing
session with psilocybin,

378
00:20:12,012 --> 00:20:16,483
for example? They come
after about 3 or 4 hours of

379
00:20:18,285 --> 00:20:20,687
preparatory counseling and
intention setting with the

380
00:20:20,754 --> 00:20:22,823
therapists that are going
to be sitting with them.

381
00:20:22,890 --> 00:20:25,626
They'll come in, they'll
lie down on the sofa. After

382
00:20:25,692 --> 00:20:29,363
taking the capsule of
psilocybin, and then the

383
00:20:29,429 --> 00:20:32,032
two therapists, which would
be sitting in the chairs

384
00:20:32,099 --> 00:20:35,435
that we're in facing the
person on the sofa, would

385
00:20:35,502 --> 00:20:37,938
watch and attend them,
reassure them if that was

386
00:20:38,005 --> 00:20:40,707
something that needed to
happen with a hand on the

387
00:20:40,774 --> 00:20:43,777
shoulder, perhaps. And then
after about six hours, they

388
00:20:43,844 --> 00:20:46,547
would be evaluated to make
sure that they were safe to

389
00:20:46,613 --> 00:20:49,516
go home. They'd go home in
the care of someone that

390
00:20:49,583 --> 00:20:51,618
they trusted that could
make sure that they got

391
00:20:51,685 --> 00:20:54,521
home safely. And then we
bring them back the next

392
00:20:54,588 --> 00:20:57,758
day, typically, and have a
1 or 2 hour debriefing and

393
00:20:57,824 --> 00:21:01,228
ideally bringing them back
2 or 3 more times. We think

394
00:21:01,295 --> 00:21:04,264
that that debriefing
session, that ability to

395
00:21:04,331 --> 00:21:06,767
work with those people with
whom they've got a

396
00:21:06,834 --> 00:21:08,836
therapeutic alliance is
critically important to

397
00:21:08,902 --> 00:21:11,939
really maximize the effects
of the psychedelic

398
00:21:12,005 --> 00:21:14,174
treatments. And one of the
reasons why we don't expect

399
00:21:14,241 --> 00:21:16,777
that recreational use of
psychedelics is going to be

400
00:21:16,844 --> 00:21:19,646
anywhere near as
therapeutically effective

401
00:21:19,713 --> 00:21:22,549
as the more controlled,
somewhat more complex work

402
00:21:22,616 --> 00:21:26,787
with the therapists.
>> What do they experience?

403
00:21:26,854 --> 00:21:28,822
>> That's hard to describe,
and it's going to be

404
00:21:28,889 --> 00:21:30,924
different for every
individual. And frankly,

405
00:21:30,991 --> 00:21:33,427
it's probably different for
every medication that we're

406
00:21:33,493 --> 00:21:38,065
using. There's a lot of
hallucinogen effects like

407
00:21:38,131 --> 00:21:43,303
seeing sounds and abnormal
visions of patterns in the

408
00:21:43,370 --> 00:21:46,406
carpet, patterns in the
wall. But they also

409
00:21:46,473 --> 00:21:51,178
describe a noetic, all
knowing sense of knowledge

410
00:21:51,245 --> 00:21:53,380
that they've experienced
something very profound. On

411
00:21:53,447 --> 00:21:55,282
the other hand, they
typically describe it as

412
00:21:55,349 --> 00:21:58,519
being ineffable, very
difficult to explain.

413
00:21:58,585 --> 00:22:00,621
Sometimes they feel like
they've come into the

414
00:22:00,687 --> 00:22:05,792
presence of a deity of God.
Others feel a very, very

415
00:22:05,859 --> 00:22:08,362
alone, like they're in a
canoe in the middle of the

416
00:22:08,428 --> 00:22:11,164
ocean on a very dark night
and feel very isolated. But

417
00:22:11,231 --> 00:22:14,401
then on the other hand,
they that same person might

418
00:22:14,468 --> 00:22:18,672
then be visited by friends
and deceased relatives. At

419
00:22:18,739 --> 00:22:21,675
least that's what some
would describe. And so it's

420
00:22:21,742 --> 00:22:24,211
really hard to pin down a
particular experience for

421
00:22:24,278 --> 00:22:28,148
any individual.
>> What is the promise of

422
00:22:28,215 --> 00:22:30,751
treatment with psychedelics
for things like depression

423
00:22:30,817 --> 00:22:33,720
or PTSD?
>> It's amazing, quite

424
00:22:36,156 --> 00:22:38,759
honestly, what the effects
of one dose of psilocybin

425
00:22:38,825 --> 00:22:42,296
seem to have. We see some
really remarkable results

426
00:22:42,362 --> 00:22:45,265
in individuals with
depression, sometimes

427
00:22:45,332 --> 00:22:47,901
treatment resistant
depression, and that can

428
00:22:47,968 --> 00:22:51,572
occur within 24 hours. And
it seems to be durable in

429
00:22:51,638 --> 00:22:55,075
many individuals. Not all.
Not everybody responds like

430
00:22:55,142 --> 00:22:58,545
that. Just like any
medication. We also see in

431
00:22:58,612 --> 00:23:02,182
our own work with
methamphetamine, but also

432
00:23:02,249 --> 00:23:05,452
other institutions looking
at alcohol, tobacco,

433
00:23:05,519 --> 00:23:08,589
cocaine, some really
remarkable rapid responses

434
00:23:08,655 --> 00:23:11,959
in terms of decreased uses
of these drugs of abuse. I

435
00:23:12,025 --> 00:23:14,261
think that one of the
things that really

436
00:23:14,328 --> 00:23:17,965
surprised me when I first
got into this was that the

437
00:23:18,031 --> 00:23:20,400
psilocybin and LSD
treatments are not

438
00:23:20,467 --> 00:23:23,770
addictive, that I was part
of the this is your brain

439
00:23:23,837 --> 00:23:26,840
on drugs generation. And so
that was a surprise. But

440
00:23:26,907 --> 00:23:30,177
it's really important to to
make 'it clear that we do

441
00:23:30,244 --> 00:23:32,446
screen the individuals that
we bring into our studies.

442
00:23:32,513 --> 00:23:35,249
And I think it's going to
be important to screen the

443
00:23:35,315 --> 00:23:37,518
individuals that come to us
after drug approval.

444
00:23:37,584 --> 00:23:40,988
>> What was your reaction
when you learned of this

445
00:23:41,054 --> 00:23:46,660
executive order? That kind
of gives the FDA fast track.

446
00:23:46,727 --> 00:23:50,664
>> So the executive order
does several things, but

447
00:23:50,731 --> 00:23:53,567
the thing that I think is
going to have the greatest

448
00:23:53,634 --> 00:23:56,336
impact on our work and the
psychedelic industry as a

449
00:23:56,403 --> 00:23:59,173
whole, is that it is going
to accelerate the rate at

450
00:23:59,239 --> 00:24:02,910
which the FDA can evaluate
drugs like this. And in

451
00:24:02,976 --> 00:24:05,312
particular, three companies
got these national program

452
00:24:05,379 --> 00:24:08,815
vouchers. That is going to
accelerate even more. The

453
00:24:08,882 --> 00:24:11,885
speed at which the FDA is
reviewing their

454
00:24:11,952 --> 00:24:15,722
applications for approval.
The concern that I have,

455
00:24:15,789 --> 00:24:20,260
quite honestly, is that the
FDA will approve this

456
00:24:20,327 --> 00:24:22,996
sooner than we were
expecting, and we don't

457
00:24:23,063 --> 00:24:25,866
really have the capacity in
terms of rooms, but

458
00:24:25,933 --> 00:24:27,835
especially the therapists
that are going to attend

459
00:24:27,901 --> 00:24:30,270
these individuals to
accommodate the demand

460
00:24:30,337 --> 00:24:32,272
that's going to occur when
that happens.

461
00:24:32,339 --> 00:24:35,576
>> And this would be
happening presumably at

462
00:24:35,642 --> 00:24:39,046
research centers across the
country.

463
00:24:39,112 --> 00:24:41,281
>> Once the drug is
approved by the FDA, it

464
00:24:41,348 --> 00:24:44,184
does not have to be at a
research center. I think

465
00:24:44,251 --> 00:24:47,087
that they are right now the
ones that are best

466
00:24:47,154 --> 00:24:49,156
positioned to accommodate
that. But frankly, it's

467
00:24:49,223 --> 00:24:53,160
going to be both an
academic and a private for

468
00:24:53,227 --> 00:24:56,630
for profit enterprise as
well. People will need to

469
00:24:56,697 --> 00:24:59,800
go to some of these clinics
that will charge them out

470
00:24:59,867 --> 00:25:03,337
of pocket for the
experience. The the

471
00:25:04,471 --> 00:25:07,074
personnel demands to have
the two therapists sitting

472
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:10,310
in the room for eight hours
is going to be one of the

473
00:25:10,377 --> 00:25:12,379
most critical things that
we have to deal with. How

474
00:25:12,446 --> 00:25:15,148
are we going to, in a
system where mental health

475
00:25:15,215 --> 00:25:18,385
professionals are hard
going to expand that

476
00:25:18,452 --> 00:25:20,587
capacity to meet the demand
from the psychedelic

477
00:25:20,654 --> 00:25:23,423
industry?
>> And Steil, this is

478
00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:26,360
really exciting news. I
imagine for someone like

479
00:25:26,426 --> 00:25:28,428
yourself.
>> It is really exciting.

480
00:25:28,495 --> 00:25:32,733
Yes, we have participated
in the development of

481
00:25:32,799 --> 00:25:36,170
psilocybin from about 12
years ago, and some of our

482
00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:38,939
work is actually going into
the the new drug

483
00:25:39,006 --> 00:25:42,142
application that Usona
Institute is going to be

484
00:25:42,209 --> 00:25:44,444
working on. So we're really
excited that we can be part

485
00:25:44,511 --> 00:25:48,549
of that. But helping other
companies, but also looking

486
00:25:48,615 --> 00:25:50,651
at the mechanism of why
this happens. We've got

487
00:25:50,717 --> 00:25:52,953
several studies that were
just asking the

488
00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:55,722
foundational question, why
does it work and how does

489
00:25:55,789 --> 00:25:59,293
it work? And how can we
perhaps make it better?

490
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,628
>> For more on this and
other issues facing

491
00:26:01,695 --> 00:26:05,065
Wisconsin, visit our
website at PBS

492
00:26:05,132 --> 00:26:07,234
wisconsin.org and then
click on the news tab.

493
00:26:07,301 --> 00:26:09,503
That's our program for
tonight. I'm Frederica

494
00:26:09,570 --> 00:26:12,472
Freyberg. Have a good
weekend.

495
00:26:43,270 --> 00:26:44,538
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

496
00:26:44,605 --> 00:26:47,140
is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

497
00:26:47,207 --> 00:26:49,676
friends of PBS Wisconsin.