1
00:00:02,202 --> 00:00:05,005
>> Reporting from Madison.
I'm Zac Schultz for "Here&

2
00:00:05,072 --> 00:00:07,541
Now".
>> Our attorneys are

3
00:00:09,076 --> 00:00:11,478
drowning. That's a quote
from the Wisconsin state

4
00:00:11,545 --> 00:00:14,381
public defender. After the
state Senate adjourned

5
00:00:14,448 --> 00:00:18,385
without taking up a bill to
fund 52 new positions,

6
00:00:18,452 --> 00:00:21,622
including 18 additional
attorneys, the agency says

7
00:00:21,688 --> 00:00:25,092
a staff shortage leaves
defendants waiting for

8
00:00:25,158 --> 00:00:28,028
representation and a
backlog of cases in the

9
00:00:28,095 --> 00:00:30,564
courts. Here to talk about
it, deputy State Public

10
00:00:30,631 --> 00:00:32,966
Defender Bridget Krause,
and thanks very much for

11
00:00:33,033 --> 00:00:35,068
being here.
>> Good morning. Thanks for

12
00:00:35,135 --> 00:00:37,337
having me.
>> So how has the shortage

13
00:00:37,404 --> 00:00:40,974
of support staff and
attorneys grown?

14
00:00:41,842 --> 00:00:44,912
>> It's grown tremendously
over the last few years,

15
00:00:44,978 --> 00:00:47,614
especially since the
pandemic. Not only have we

16
00:00:47,681 --> 00:00:50,651
been short with the number
of private bar lawyers that

17
00:00:50,717 --> 00:00:54,054
are taking cases in the
state of Wisconsin, we've

18
00:00:54,121 --> 00:00:56,557
also had an increase in the
number of cases coming in,

19
00:00:56,623 --> 00:00:59,459
but we have not had an
increase in the number of

20
00:00:59,526 --> 00:01:02,629
public defenders or public
defender's support staff

21
00:01:02,696 --> 00:01:06,900
added to the SPD. So it has
been growth over a number

22
00:01:06,967 --> 00:01:09,837
of years. And I think after
the pandemic, we finally

23
00:01:09,903 --> 00:01:12,773
saw how it was affecting
both the legal system as

24
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,943
well as the attorneys and
the clients that are

25
00:01:16,009 --> 00:01:18,045
represented by the public
defender's office.

26
00:01:18,111 --> 00:01:20,280
>> What are the
consequences of not having

27
00:01:20,347 --> 00:01:23,050
enough people to timely
defend everyone who needs

28
00:01:23,116 --> 00:01:25,352
it?
>> People waiting in

29
00:01:26,220 --> 00:01:29,656
custody longer, right cases
go longer without having a

30
00:01:29,723 --> 00:01:32,793
lawyer. So we have had
clients sitting in custody

31
00:01:32,860 --> 00:01:35,162
prior to a preliminary
hearing, which they're

32
00:01:35,229 --> 00:01:37,931
entitled to have within ten
days if they're in custody,

33
00:01:37,998 --> 00:01:40,234
20 days if they're out of
custody and they're sitting

34
00:01:40,300 --> 00:01:42,202
there without a lawyer
because there's no lawyer

35
00:01:42,269 --> 00:01:44,638
to take their case, you
also have cases in the

36
00:01:44,705 --> 00:01:48,141
system longer, right? So
cases that might have

37
00:01:48,208 --> 00:01:52,079
resolved 66 months to nine
months pre-pandemic now are

38
00:01:52,145 --> 00:01:54,915
waiting longer to resolve
or longer to even get an

39
00:01:54,982 --> 00:01:58,785
attorney. So there's a lot
of delay in both getting a

40
00:01:58,852 --> 00:02:01,188
client, a lawyer, and
there's a lot of delay in

41
00:02:01,255 --> 00:02:04,892
resolving a case which
could have an impact on

42
00:02:04,958 --> 00:02:08,862
both the system as well as
the individuals who, you

43
00:02:08,929 --> 00:02:11,131
know, the complaining
witnesses in a case, the

44
00:02:11,198 --> 00:02:13,300
people that have gone to
the police for help, it

45
00:02:13,367 --> 00:02:16,236
delays the case for them.
Also.

46
00:02:16,303 --> 00:02:18,672
>> What are the
frustrations like inside

47
00:02:18,739 --> 00:02:23,310
the courtroom, inside the
criminal justice system?

48
00:02:23,377 --> 00:02:25,512
>> I think the judges are
frustrated, right? They're

49
00:02:25,579 --> 00:02:27,247
frustrated.
>> Because there's no

50
00:02:27,314 --> 00:02:30,784
lawyer sitting with the
client at very important

51
00:02:30,851 --> 00:02:34,087
stages, including a
preliminary hearing as the

52
00:02:34,154 --> 00:02:37,124
case moves forward. Right.
It's hard to get a lawyer

53
00:02:37,191 --> 00:02:40,260
to sit with that client if
there's no lawyers

54
00:02:40,327 --> 00:02:42,629
available. There's a lot of
frustration by public

55
00:02:42,696 --> 00:02:44,464
defenders. Honestly, we
want to represent our

56
00:02:44,531 --> 00:02:46,767
clients. We don't want
people sitting in custody

57
00:02:46,834 --> 00:02:49,536
without a lawyer, right? We
don't want people sitting

58
00:02:49,603 --> 00:02:51,738
there that could be
innocent of the crimes that

59
00:02:51,805 --> 00:02:53,707
they've been accused of,
because they don't have a

60
00:02:53,774 --> 00:02:56,810
lawyer to represent them. I
think it's frustrating for

61
00:02:56,877 --> 00:02:59,213
prosecutors, too, honestly,
because they have charged

62
00:02:59,279 --> 00:03:02,516
specific cases and someone
doesn't have a lawyer.

63
00:03:02,583 --> 00:03:04,585
Therefore, that case cannot
move forward. So I think

64
00:03:04,651 --> 00:03:07,521
there's a lot of
frustration in the system.

65
00:03:07,588 --> 00:03:11,191
It's probably frustrating
also, honestly, for the

66
00:03:11,258 --> 00:03:13,627
sheriff's office that run
the jails, because if you

67
00:03:13,694 --> 00:03:15,963
can't get a lawyer for a
client, that client might

68
00:03:16,029 --> 00:03:19,433
sit in custody and then you
have more people in custody

69
00:03:19,499 --> 00:03:21,535
than should be in custody
and the jails can't handle

70
00:03:21,602 --> 00:03:24,505
it.
new prosecutor positions.

71
00:03:24,972 --> 00:03:28,475
How does that exacerbate
case delays?

72
00:03:28,542 --> 00:03:31,245
>> I mean, there's only so
many.

73
00:03:31,311 --> 00:03:33,013
>> Lawyers to take the
cases that are coming in.

74
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,649
And when you add
prosecutors, you add the

75
00:03:35,716 --> 00:03:38,552
number of cases coming into
the system. So if you're

76
00:03:38,619 --> 00:03:41,755
adding prosecutors on one
side, they're reviewing

77
00:03:41,822 --> 00:03:44,258
charges, they're charging
cases. But if you don't

78
00:03:44,324 --> 00:03:46,426
have the lawyers on the
other side to represent

79
00:03:46,493 --> 00:03:49,763
those clients, it just
bottlenecks the system. So

80
00:03:49,830 --> 00:03:53,500
any progress that we make
in bringing in new lawyers,

81
00:03:53,567 --> 00:03:56,470
new private bar lawyers to
take the cases, any

82
00:03:56,537 --> 00:03:59,072
progress we make in filling
vacancies in the state

83
00:03:59,139 --> 00:04:02,743
public defender's really go
nowhere because of the

84
00:04:02,809 --> 00:04:04,845
increase in the number of
cases coming into the

85
00:04:04,912 --> 00:04:07,548
system.
>> So you spoke to private

86
00:04:07,614 --> 00:04:11,785
bar attorneys who can be
appointed, and are they at

87
00:04:11,852 --> 00:04:15,322
all helping to offset this
shortage?

88
00:04:16,390 --> 00:04:18,625
>> I think they're helping
as much as they can. Right?

89
00:04:18,692 --> 00:04:22,396
They also only have so much
bandwidth. So they can also

90
00:04:22,462 --> 00:04:25,599
only take so many cases. We
have some really great

91
00:04:25,666 --> 00:04:28,836
private bar partners who
take cases for us. Right.

92
00:04:28,902 --> 00:04:31,872
And they've taken cases for
us for years. But at some

93
00:04:31,939 --> 00:04:34,575
point they are also
saturated with representing

94
00:04:34,641 --> 00:04:37,077
clients. And it's not just
a warm body next to a

95
00:04:37,144 --> 00:04:41,615
client, right? A client has
a right to effective

96
00:04:42,249 --> 00:04:45,219
ethical representation. And
if you have too many cases,

97
00:04:45,285 --> 00:04:47,454
you can't provide that to a
client. So I think our

98
00:04:47,521 --> 00:04:50,424
private bar partners are
working really hard to help

99
00:04:50,490 --> 00:04:52,893
us. But again, you only
have so many lawyers. And

100
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,596
if you continue to bring
the cases in, you just

101
00:04:55,662 --> 00:04:57,698
don't have enough lawyers
to handle those cases.

102
00:04:57,764 --> 00:05:00,400
>> Now, your agency calls
this an unfunded mandate.

103
00:05:00,467 --> 00:05:04,071
What's the mandate?
>> I think the mandate is,

104
00:05:04,137 --> 00:05:07,107
you know, Gideon, the
anniversary of Gideon was

105
00:05:07,174 --> 00:05:09,877
just this past Wednesday.
And Gideon, the US Supreme

106
00:05:09,943 --> 00:05:13,180
Court said that clients
have a constitutional right

107
00:05:13,247 --> 00:05:16,750
to have a lawyer represent
them. That's the mandate.

108
00:05:16,817 --> 00:05:20,554
When you don't have lawyers
checking the prosecution,

109
00:05:20,621 --> 00:05:24,758
checking the police
department, it causes a

110
00:05:25,359 --> 00:05:28,629
tremendous it causes an
effect across the state,

111
00:05:28,695 --> 00:05:31,498
across our counties, across
our cities, because people

112
00:05:31,565 --> 00:05:35,102
are unchecked and they're
able to prosecute people or

113
00:05:35,169 --> 00:05:38,238
charge people with very
serious cases. And if you

114
00:05:38,305 --> 00:05:41,074
don't have a lawyer sitting
next to that client, it

115
00:05:41,141 --> 00:05:45,512
affects the entire
community. So we have an

116
00:05:45,579 --> 00:05:49,149
obligation, an obligation
in our state to provide

117
00:05:49,216 --> 00:05:52,553
lawyers for people that are
charged with crimes. There

118
00:05:52,619 --> 00:05:55,189
is a there is a
constitutional protecting.

119
00:05:55,255 --> 00:05:58,091
Those clients have to be
proven guilty beyond a

120
00:05:58,158 --> 00:06:00,961
reasonable doubt. But you
need a lawyer sitting next

121
00:06:01,028 --> 00:06:04,598
to that client providing
that defense, reviewing

122
00:06:04,665 --> 00:06:06,967
that discovery, providing
that advice to clients and

123
00:06:07,034 --> 00:06:09,736
fighting in court if
necessary. And when you

124
00:06:09,803 --> 00:06:13,707
don't have that, the entire
system fails.