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charge in Madison,
Wisconsin would be a very

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different place.
>> While the immigration

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enforcement surge in
Minneapolis has wound down,

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targeted arrests, including
in Wisconsin, continue. The

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mass deportation policy.
Has the immigration system

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scrambling to keep up. What
kind of limbo does this

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leave people in, and what
is happening in the

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immigration system? We turn
to immigration attorney

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Grant Sovern, thanks very
much for being here.

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>> Thank you for your
interest.

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the immigration system
right now as an emergency

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on two fronts. How so?
>> Well, on one side, there

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are just so many more
people being picked up than

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there ever have been before.
I mean, it appears that

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there's some sort of quota
that Ice and Border Patrol

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have to reach. So it's just
an unbelievable,

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unprecedented volume of
people that we have to

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address, and we have to get
to them quickly. If we

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don't find them within a
day or two days, or at the

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most three, they get moved
to a facility away from

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their family, away from a
lawyer who can help them in

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a jurisdiction that's often
much more difficult. But on

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the second side, the
government is just changing

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the rules every day, every
week. Something that

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lawyers have to find out
about when you're in court

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and waiting for a hearing.
And they're just changing

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the rules that make due
process almost impossible

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for anybody to get.
>> Speaking of changing the

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rules, what are you seeing
among people who have

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followed all the rules to
become U.S. citizens? Or

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they're here on some kind
of protected status or

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refugee status or something
like that?

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>> Yeah, I think, you know,
we hear from the government

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that all immigrants are
criminals and therefore

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they should be deported.
But and then we also hear,

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if only you wait in line
like everybody else, if

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only you file the right
application, which frankly,

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does not exist anymore. But
successive presidential

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administrations have come
up with their own programs

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because Congress basically
hasn't done an overhaul of

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the immigration system
since 1952. But because of

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that, the next president
can just cancel those

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things. And this
administration has been

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doing that left and right.
So people who followed

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every rule, they're
supposed to fill out the

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right application, waited
when they should, paid the

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right fee, are now being
told that we are making you

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illegal. If that's a term
that can be used that the

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administration uses. But
they have done everything

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right, especially now we're
talking about people from

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really problematic places
like Ukraine and Venezuela

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and places with civil wars
and natural disasters where

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people have gotten the
application been approved

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and are here in a legal
path. The government just

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pulls the rug out from
under and says, you're no

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longer illegal. And the
worst that I can think of

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from our own perspective
are the 800 families,

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people from Afghanistan who
are airlifted out of Kabul,

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who helped us, and our
government, who are now

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being told that the
programs that they have

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temporary protected status
or humanitarian parole are

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no longer valid. And so
we're going to pick you up

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if you are still in that
status.

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>> And there's a brand new
rule out this week about

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refugees.
>> This is something it has

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been going on for almost 75
years in the United States,

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where we take people who
have been languishing in

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refugee camps around the
world for 10 or 15 years

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and give them a new life in
the United States, that's

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called refugee status. But
all these people are ones

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who have participated in
this program, have been

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granted status by the State
Department or by the

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Immigration Service, and
they're allowed to stay in

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the United States
indefinitely because they

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can't be sent back. They
shouldn't be sent back. The

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law says they shouldn't be
sent back. And yet, just

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this week, the government
turned a rule that says,

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you may apply for a green
card within a year from

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your refugee asylum status
so you can have permanent

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resident status. Stay, work
wherever you want. Travel

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00:04:03,944 --> 00:04:06,113
in and out of the United
States. They've now turned

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that rule around to say, if
you didn't apply for a

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green card within a year,
we reserve the right to

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detain you, to investigate
you, and potentially deport

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00:04:15,522 --> 00:04:20,093
you for no stated reason
whatsoever. Except it seems

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like to have more numbers
to be able to say to the

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American people, we've
deported a lot of people.

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>> What kind of scramble is
this for people in your

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00:04:28,669 --> 00:04:31,405
line of work?
>> Yeah, I can't tell you.

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00:04:31,471 --> 00:04:34,241
Times are difficult enough.
Like where I work at the

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00:04:34,308 --> 00:04:36,877
Community Immigration Law
Center. There are lawyers

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00:04:36,944 --> 00:04:41,148
who are fighting every day,
and it's a really tough job.

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00:04:41,215 --> 00:04:43,817
Just normally between the
volume and the stories and

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the humanitarian side, kids
and families. But now the

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00:04:48,355 --> 00:04:50,991
government is just changing
everything they do, and it

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00:04:51,058 --> 00:04:54,695
is a very difficult
situation to be try and

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00:04:54,761 --> 00:04:56,630
represent somebody. If you
don't have a lawyer right

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00:04:56,697 --> 00:04:59,566
now, I can tell you you
have 100% chance of being

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00:04:59,633 --> 00:05:02,536
deported because the rules
have changed so much. The

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00:05:02,603 --> 00:05:05,405
the ground on which we are
standing in immigration

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00:05:05,472 --> 00:05:07,975
court is changing every day
or every week.

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00:05:08,041 --> 00:05:10,844
>> If you do have a lawyer,
what are your odds?

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00:05:10,911 --> 00:05:13,680
>> I mean, I can tell you,
you know, a case that

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00:05:13,747 --> 00:05:16,583
happened just in the past
few weeks with our

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00:05:16,650 --> 00:05:19,653
organization is somebody
was applying for asylum

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00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,322
from Latin America because
they had a very bona fide

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00:05:22,389 --> 00:05:24,925
claim of persecution that
would happen to them if

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00:05:24,992 --> 00:05:28,161
they got sent back to their
home country and

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00:05:28,228 --> 00:05:30,364
fortunately came to us at
the last minute and said,

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00:05:30,430 --> 00:05:33,200
Will you please come with
us? And we didn't have time

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00:05:33,267 --> 00:05:35,402
to prepare. But when we
went there, we found out

112
00:05:35,469 --> 00:05:38,605
about these alternative
country agreements that the

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00:05:38,672 --> 00:05:42,643
government is using to say,
well, we can't send you

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00:05:42,709 --> 00:05:44,711
back to your home country
because of persecution, but

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00:05:44,778 --> 00:05:47,381
we're going to send you to
some third country to which

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00:05:47,447 --> 00:05:49,783
you've never been before,
and without a lawyer to

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00:05:49,850 --> 00:05:52,886
know that that's going to
happen and to prepare a

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00:05:52,953 --> 00:05:55,756
case about what would
happen to that person if

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00:05:55,822 --> 00:05:58,325
they got sent, for example,
in Latin America, the

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00:05:58,392 --> 00:06:00,494
government has arranged
this agreement to send

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00:06:00,561 --> 00:06:03,430
almost everybody to
Honduras. If you're from

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00:06:03,497 --> 00:06:06,366
Africa, everybody is sent
to Uganda. And without a

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00:06:06,433 --> 00:06:08,902
lawyer, there's almost no
way for you to prepare that.

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00:06:08,969 --> 00:06:11,738
And even with the lawyer,
it is extremely difficult.

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00:06:11,805 --> 00:06:14,842
>> Where does this end up?
>> Both for the families

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00:06:14,908 --> 00:06:18,245
but also for our community.
The fact that you can be

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00:06:18,312 --> 00:06:21,381
picked up, sent to another
country and in the middle,

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00:06:21,448 --> 00:06:25,419
put in prison for a
potential civil violation

129
00:06:25,485 --> 00:06:29,156
without any due process, is
something that I and people

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00:06:29,223 --> 00:06:32,593
in our community in
Wisconsin can't abide.

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00:06:32,659 --> 00:06:35,629
Everybody should have a
fair shot. At least I and

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00:06:35,696 --> 00:06:38,031
the lawyers who work at the
Community Immigration Law

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00:06:38,098 --> 00:06:40,434
Center are trying just to
make sure today's people

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00:06:40,501 --> 00:06:43,770
are getting some due
process. So all we can do

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00:06:43,837 --> 00:06:48,408
is see what's in front of
us today and do the best we