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>> At the state Capitol, a
bipartisan legislative bill

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to allow online sports
betting in Wisconsin that

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was on the fast track for a
vote was pulled from this

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week's calendar. Its future
is uncertain, but the

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legislation would have
allowed the online betting

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if it originated from
servers in tribal casinos

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in the state because under
the Wisconsin Constitution,

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most gambling is only legal
on tribal property. The

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idea was for the state to
regulate and cash in on the

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revenue generated from the
explosion of online sports

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betting, as other states
have done. Researcher at

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the Wisconsin Policy Forum,
Mark Sommerhauser, did a

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deep dive into online
sports betting, and he

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joins us now. And thanks
very much for being here.

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>> It's good to be with you.
>> So how surprised were

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you that this otherwise
fast tracked bill just got

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pulled?
>> Yeah. So it was an

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interesting development. It
was also interesting to see

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how the legislation had
been fast tracked fairly

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quickly in, in the weeks
leading up to this last

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week. And so, you know,
perhaps, you know, the

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speed with which the bill
had come forward. There may

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have been a desire among
some lawmakers and some

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stakeholders to kind of
take a step back and, you

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know, consider some of
these issues more fully.

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>> So what kind of revenue
could the state realize if

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it legalized and regulated
>> So that's a great

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question. I have actually
not seen any projections as

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of yet, probably in part
because the legislation

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would just be the first in
sort of a two step process

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here in Wisconsin. So even
if this even if this

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legislation were to pass be
governor, there would still

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be an additional step where
the state would need to

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renegotiate its compacts
with the tribal nations

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here in Wisconsin. So that
would kind of actually be

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the final threshold to
cross before you could have

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legal online sports betting.
What we know from our

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research is that we have
looked at some other states

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that have legalized online
sports betting. As you

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alluded, there's been
dozens and dozens of states

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that have done that just in
the last few years. And

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they have in some cases
seen quite large, you know,

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infusions of revenue. Of
course, a lot of it depends

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on how the extent to which
it's taxed. And we see from

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state to state, there are
huge variations in that,

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you know, from 5% to 50%
taxes. So so the rate

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differs hugely in states
that have a high tax rate.

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And in larger states it can
be on the order of hundreds

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of millions of dollars in
tax revenue a year. Again,

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that's on the very high end,
and that's with a very high

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tax rate. So that's not
necessarily something that

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could be extrapolated to
Wisconsin, but it does give

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you a sense of what what
some states can.

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>> As we described right
now, people in Wisconsin

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can only place bets online
legally while physically on

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site at a at a tribal
casino. How unusual is this

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across the country, that
kind of restriction?

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>> It's fairly unusual. I
think there's only 1 or 2

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other states presently that
have a set up quite like

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that, in part because so
many states have that have

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some form of legal gambling,
have taken the step already

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of legalizing the online
sports betting. And so

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Wisconsin is fairly unusual
in that we permit it

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legally, but only in this
in-person setting right now

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at the tribal casinos.
>> So stepping back to your

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larger research, describe
kind of the explosion of

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online betting that we've
seen.

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>> Yeah. So the really big
trigger point for that was

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the supreme US Supreme
Court ruling in 2018. And

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what that did is it
essentially paved the way

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for states to it struck
down a law that previously

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had barred most states
outside of Nevada from

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legalizing sports gambling.
And what we saw was a very,

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you know, swift reaction to
that Supreme Court ruling.

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And we are now, at last
count, I believe, at 39

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states that have some form
of of legalized sports

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betting. Nearly all of them
permit online sports

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betting. And so that has
brought about a really

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rapid shift in this whole
landscape just since 2018.

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>> And what are the numbers
look like, you know, from

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maybe five years ago or ten
years ago or something to

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today in terms of the
amount of money being spent

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on these pets.
>> Right.

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>> So yeah, we've seen
hundreds of millions of

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dollars in revenue
increases in terms of the

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total amount being gambled.
And, you know, again, you

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know, prior to the Supreme
Court ruling, Nevada was

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really the only state at a
statewide level that was

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permitting this. Now we're
up to almost 40 states that

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are permitting it. And
there are more, as in here

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in Wisconsin, that are
considering it. So it's

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pretty staggering the scale
of how quickly that's

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happening.
are betting not just kind

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of on the outcome of the
games, but on like

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individual plays within the
games. And so it's it's

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super popular and there's
always something to kind of

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bet on. But what are the
downsides to this according

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to your research.
>> Yeah. So it's

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interesting because outside
of Nevada, it's only

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recently that, you know,
we've had legal sports

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betting. And so it's only
in these 49 other states,

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only fairly recent
development, that

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researchers have been able
to study at a large scale.

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So we're actually seeing a
lot of really interesting

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research coming in just
over the past couple of

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years where they started
studying this maybe three

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or 4 or 5 years ago, and
are just starting to get to

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the point where they can
draw some conclusions. And

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those conclusions are mixed,
but I would say definitely

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contain, you know, some
areas of concern. We have

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seen higher rates of
bankruptcy, of delinquency

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in, in car loans and other
forms of loans and debt,

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and in states that have
legalized sports betting

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relative to states that
have not. And interestingly,

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at least one paper that we
read that I think came out

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last year was even able to
take that a step further

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and find a higher rates of
some of these financial

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sort of stressors within
households, within states

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that have legalized online
sports betting. So that's

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just one study again. But
there's more of this

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research coming in kind of
by the month here. And it

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does raise some areas of
concern in terms of the

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impact to households and
household finances, that

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sort of large scale legal
sports betting can

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potentially be associated.
>> With.

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>> And not even speaking of
kind of the gambling

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potentially trigger in some.
Do you expect this move to

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legalize it in Wisconsin
will die or be revived

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somehow, possibly through
the courts?

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>> I would expect that the
discussion.

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>> Is far from finished. I
would expect that there's

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going to be a lot more
discussion, both among the

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stakeholders, the tribes,
and some of the other

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stakeholders, because
everybody kind of sees

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where the national
landscape is going. But,

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you know, I would not dare
to make a prediction as to

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how it's going to turn out.
But what we see is that our

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our neighboring states have
legalized this in some form,

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so many other states across
the country. And so I think

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it's just going to continue
it's just going to continue