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PBS Wisconsin Original
Production.

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>> A postponed Supreme
Court debate doesn't

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forfeit voters. Only chance
to see the candidates

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square off.
[MUSIC]

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still in session, the state
legislature is not leaving

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residents hanging on
property tax relief.

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[MUSIC]
I'm Frederica Freyberg

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tonight on "Here& Now" the
state Supreme Court

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election approaches inside
Wisconsin politics. That's

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the table for you to get to
know the candidates. And

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Zac Schultz reports on how
each candidate would

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respond to requests to
recuse themselves on cases.

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As property taxes increase
while public schools vie

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for more funding,
communities are informing

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the public how much is
diverted to private schools.

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And with millions of
dollars now released by the

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state to address PFAs, we
check back with the town of

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Stella to see how it could
be put to use.

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[MUSIC]
It's "Here& Now" for March

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27th.
>> Funding for Here and Now

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is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

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Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> The morning before, the

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only statewide debate
between candidates for

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Wisconsin Supreme Court
this week, one of them had

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to pull out. Liberal
candidate Chris Taylor went

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to the hospital for kidney
stones, according to her

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campaign. Conservative
Maria Lazar wished her a

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speedy recovery. Now the
debate has been rescheduled

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for next Thursday night,
which puts it just five

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days before the April 7th
spring election. Meanwhile,

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the latest Marquette Law
School poll found voters

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still don't know who
they'll vote for. Among

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registered voters, 53%
remain undecided, with 23%

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supporting Chris Taylor and
17% choosing Maria Lazar

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and 7% saying they won't
vote. The state Supreme

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Court election is the focus
of this week's new Inside

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Wisconsin Politics, with
Wisconsin Public Radio

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reporter Shawn Johnson and
Rich Kremer and PBS

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Wisconsin “Here& Now”
reporter Zac Schultz.

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>> The Wisconsin Supreme
Court race is coming up,

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and polling shows a
majority of you say you

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don't know enough about the
candidates. Let's fix that.

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This is inside Wisconsin
politics.

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I'm Shawn Johnson here with
my colleagues, Zac Schultz

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and Rich Kremer. Hey, guys.
>> Hello. Hey.

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>> So this is not something
we're just making up here.

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There has been polling on
this race, and the leading

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vote getter in that poll
was a majority of people

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saying they don't know who
they're going to support.

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That is so different than
in 2023 and 2025, when we

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in Wisconsin were the Super
Bowls of election for our

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Supreme Court races. So,
Zac, what is the difference

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this year?
>> Well, the simple

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difference is this isn't
for the majority. The

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Liberals will have a four
person majority for the

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next session no matter what.
If Chris Taylor wins, it

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goes to five two. If Chris.
If Maria Lazar wins, it

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stays at 4 to 3. But that
simply is the difference

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between $100 million in
campaign and the attention

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of the world on this very
important swing state, and

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the court's decisions on
election laws versus a

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snooze fest, even in the
state for people that

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normally tune in for these
elections, are still trying

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to figure out, oh, when is
that coming up?

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>> And that's not hyperbole
either. That $100 million

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is a real number from last
election, when we shattered

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the 2023 record not just
for Wisconsin, but for

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national judicial races.
Rich. The 2025 race was the

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first one you'd covered
really closely. What was a

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day in the life like on
that one, and how does it

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compare to what you've
observed in this Supreme

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Court race?
>> I mean, it's like night

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and day. I covered a
Republican, former

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Republican Attorney General
Brad Schimel, spent a day

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with him on the campaign
trail. And, you know, first

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off, the bat, he took money
directly from the

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Republican Party of
Wisconsin. Also, I was at a

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campaign event at the
Republican Party in La

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Crosse, where Brad Schimel
framed the race as a fight

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between good and evil. And
he also used an analogy of

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driving the serpent out of
the Garden of Eden. So the.

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The language used by
Schimel is very different

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than what we've seen from
Judge Lazar. She's

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promoting that she is the
independent candidate

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compared to Chris Taylor,
who she attacks as being an

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activist and former
Democratic lawmaker. But

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she just hasn't made the
same kind of statements

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that I've heard that
Schimel did last year.

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>> It's almost like an old
fashioned Supreme Court

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race in Wisconsin, Zac.
>> It harkens back to a day

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where things weren't as
heated that your your TV

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wasn't filled with ads
nonstop in the lead up to

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it, where you really did
have to pay attention to

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learn who these people were.
Now it's still Republican

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Democrat, you know, they
may use the labels

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conservative, liberal, but
Chris Taylor is a former

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legislative Democrat but
now independent judge. But

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her connections to the
Wisconsin Democratic Party

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to the Republican Party
covered go deep. I've

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attended multiple events
with her. She's been

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speaking at GOP rallies
with the next speaker's

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Eric Toney running for
attorney general. So it's

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not like either of these
are running down

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independent lanes. They're
still following that

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traditional the new path.
If you want to become on

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the Supreme Court, you keep
the political parties at

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arm's length in your name,
but you take all the money

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under the table. You take
all their effort for

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grassroots, because that
really matters when when it

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comes to getting people out
to vote, those turnout

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operations, those dollar
operations still belong to

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the parties. There is no
independent structure for

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anyone to remain
independent and actually

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win a campaign.
>> Zac, what should people

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know about Chris Taylor's
background and what led her

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to this point?
>> She's got heavy partizan

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activity in her background
and she doesn't deny that.

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But like every judge or
justice, she wouldn't be

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former Justice Prosser
served as the Assembly

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speaker for Republicans.
And back in the day when

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they could say, well, I'm a
conservative justice, not a

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conservative politician
with Chris Taylor in this

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modern environment, I don't
know if it really matters

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because the candidates are
so tied to the parties

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anyway that her background
doesn't seem to have any

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baggage. And we saw with
Brad Schimel Rich, as you

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were talking about last
year, he's a former

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Republican attorney general
for Wisconsin, and he did

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not shy away from those
Republican connections. But

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you see a difference with
Lazar and how she's handled

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herself.
>> Yes, she's she's leaning

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on her, you know, her
experience in the courtroom,

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but also, you know, her
political ads kind of let

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you know where she stands
on certain things, or at

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least where her campaign
does. So there's plenty of

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signals out there.
>> You know, some of these

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candidates, when they run
for Supreme Court, they

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come from the law. And
maybe you're hearing about

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them for the first time or
getting introduced to them

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for the first time. But,
you know, Chris Taylor and

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Maria Lazar, as you both
mentioned, have been around

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for a little while. I
remember Maria Lazar

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defending Republican drawn
legislative maps in 2012

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alongside co-counsel Dan
Kelly, who former Supreme

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Court justice and who ran
in a couple races in lost.

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I remember Chris Taylor
very well for her role in

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the minority on the
Legislature's Budget

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Committee, where if you
have that position, you are

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expected to be able to talk
and defend every position

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and and attack the
majority's position

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aggressively. And so she
did that. Well, she wasn't

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just a backbencher
legislator. She was the

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person who was on that
front line of attack. And,

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you know, since we've since
she's become a judge,

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that's changed. And she has
indicated and her friends

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have indicated, look, she
knows this is a different

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role on the court, but it
is striking a very big

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change for her to go from
that, you know, attack,

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attack, attack Democratic
legislator to a judge going

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to see things differently.
Rich, there was another

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finding in the Marquette
poll that we recently

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covered that, you know,
it's hard to say where

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people stand on the
candidates when more than

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half of voters say they
don't know. But what we did

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see, what you saw. There's
a lot of tells in there

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about which side is more
enthusiastic right now at

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this moment in time.
>> Yeah. Big time. There

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was a big disparity in
terms of who's excited to

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vote in the April 7th
election. So some numbers

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I'll run off here. People
saying that there are

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certain to vote on April
7th. Democrats are up 18

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points over Republicans.
How important the election

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is to the outcome or how
important is the election

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outcome to you? That was a
19 point spread in

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Democrats favor as well. So
there's all kinds of

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metrics. And not to mention
that President Trump had

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his lowest net negative
approval rating in

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Marquette poll history. So
those are all some

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headwinds for conservative
candidates.

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>> For the full episode,
look for Inside Wisconsin

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Politics at and PBS,
Wisconsin Dot, YouTube, and

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wherever you get your
podcasts. With more on the

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statewide race. Elections
for Wisconsin Supreme Court

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have become more expensive
and more partizan than ever

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before. And while justices
on the court are

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technically independent,
they are easily sorted into

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liberal and conservative
groups that can create an

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appearance of bias in the
eyes of some people, and

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has led to an increase in
the number of requests for

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justices to recuse
themselves from a case

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"Here& Now". Senior
political reporter Zac

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Schultz has more.
>> So that's when I say yes,

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those maps are rigged.
>> In 2023, Janet

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Protasiewicz ushered in a
new era in Wisconsin

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Supreme Court elections by
openly talking about her

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values. While on the
campaign trail, she called

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legislative maps passed by
Republicans and adopted by

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the Supreme Court rigged.
Since then, multiple

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lawsuits filed against
those maps have come before

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the court, and each time
lawyers representing the

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Republicans have asked
Protasiewicz to recuse

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herself, resting part of
their case on this very

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interview she conducted
with us each time she said

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no, concluding the
presumption of impartiality

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stands. I therefore deny
the motion for my recusal.

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>> Recusal is important in
the sense that it is part

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of this big picture notion
that people are entitled to

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unbiased adjudicators.
>> Rob Yablon is a

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professor at the UW Law
School. Most judicial

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recusals come from a judge
who's already weighed in on

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a case, or who has a
financial or personal

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relationship with one of
the parties, but that

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doesn't include campaign
contributions or statements

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from the campaign trail.
>> The expectation is that

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under the current rules,
that judges and justices

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won't step aside because of
their discussions of issues

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or values on the campaign
trail, or because of money

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they've received.
>> Under the Wisconsin

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Supreme Court's own
guidelines. Each justice

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decides for themselves if
they should recuse. We

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asked the candidates in
this Supreme Court election

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about their recusal
standards.

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>> I follow the rules set
by the U.S. Supreme Court

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as well as by the state of
Wisconsin. I've had to look

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at different circumstances
and decide when and how to

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recuse. And I always look
at not only is it

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objectively, but
subjectively biased. So if

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there's an appearance of
impropriety, then I will

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take a step back.
>> I'm instructed by my

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ethical obligations to look
at each case on a case by

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case basis and make sure
that I can be fair and

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impartial. And that's what
I do every day.

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>> Two current cases have
shown a new tactic in

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00:11:58,352 --> 00:12:01,855
recusal requests. Former
Supreme Court Justice Mike

235
00:12:01,922 --> 00:12:04,625
Gableman and lawyer Jim
Troupis have each attempted

236
00:12:04,691 --> 00:12:07,728
to remove enough justices
through recusal to change

237
00:12:07,794 --> 00:12:10,163
the makeup of the court
that would hear their case

238
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:13,767
in 2020. Troupis
represented the Trump

239
00:12:13,834 --> 00:12:16,403
campaign as they attempted
to throw out more than

240
00:12:16,470 --> 00:12:19,873
200,000 votes in Dane and
Milwaukee counties. In oral

241
00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:23,443
arguments, he sparred with
Justice Jill Karofsky.

242
00:12:23,510 --> 00:12:26,513
>> And what you want is you
want us to overturn this

243
00:12:26,580 --> 00:12:29,816
election so that your king
can stay in power. And that

244
00:12:29,883 --> 00:12:34,388
is so un-American.
>> Troupis lost that case,

245
00:12:34,454 --> 00:12:37,224
but at the same time, he
was the lawyer behind

246
00:12:37,291 --> 00:12:39,826
Wisconsin's false elector
scheme, an effort to send

247
00:12:39,893 --> 00:12:42,629
an alternate slate of
electoral votes to

248
00:12:42,696 --> 00:12:46,533
Washington, DC on January
6th. For that, he's been

249
00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,036
charged by the Wisconsin
attorney general with

250
00:12:49,102 --> 00:12:51,905
forgery, and Troupis claims
all the judges in Dane

251
00:12:51,972 --> 00:12:55,642
County are biased and
should recuse. His motions

252
00:12:55,709 --> 00:12:58,545
were rejected, and while
appealing to the Wisconsin

253
00:12:58,612 --> 00:13:01,582
Supreme Court, he asked
Justices Jill Karofsky and

254
00:13:01,648 --> 00:13:04,618
Rebecca Dallet to recuse
based on their comments in

255
00:13:04,685 --> 00:13:09,223
the Trump v Biden case.
>> My investigation is just

256
00:13:09,289 --> 00:13:12,025
that an investigation into
the extent to which

257
00:13:12,092 --> 00:13:14,561
elections in Wisconsin have
been conducted in

258
00:13:14,628 --> 00:13:17,097
compliance with the law.
>> Meanwhile, Gableman was

259
00:13:17,164 --> 00:13:19,766
hired to investigate
Republican claims of fraud

260
00:13:19,833 --> 00:13:23,504
during the 2020 election.
His investigation found no

261
00:13:23,570 --> 00:13:25,973
fraud, but it was
determined he violated the

262
00:13:26,039 --> 00:13:29,776
open records law repeatedly.
>> And under my firm belief

263
00:13:29,843 --> 00:13:33,280
that this judge has
abandoned his role as a

264
00:13:33,347 --> 00:13:36,550
neutral magistrate and is
acting as an advocate.

265
00:13:36,617 --> 00:13:38,886
>> And when in Dane County
Court, he insulted the

266
00:13:38,952 --> 00:13:42,356
judge and opposing counsel.
A report by the Office of

267
00:13:42,422 --> 00:13:46,159
Lawyer Regulation found ten
violations committed by

268
00:13:46,226 --> 00:13:48,495
Gableman, and he
recommended he lose his law

269
00:13:48,562 --> 00:13:52,065
license for three years.
Final action belongs to the

270
00:13:52,132 --> 00:13:54,701
Supreme Court, and Gableman
has asked three different

271
00:13:54,768 --> 00:13:58,105
members to recuse
themselves. Justices

272
00:13:58,172 --> 00:14:00,974
Protasiewicz and Karofsky
said no. While Justice

273
00:14:01,041 --> 00:14:04,211
Crawford did recuse not
because of Gableman's

274
00:14:04,278 --> 00:14:06,580
request, but because she
was a Dane County judge

275
00:14:06,647 --> 00:14:10,150
during his court case.
>> My strong sense is that

276
00:14:10,217 --> 00:14:12,853
the volume of recusal
requests that we've seen

277
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,789
over the past year or two
are more than we've ever

278
00:14:15,856 --> 00:14:19,326
seen before in Wisconsin,
and the nature of those

279
00:14:19,393 --> 00:14:22,696
requests really tends to be
quite political.

280
00:14:22,763 --> 00:14:25,432
>> Yablon says. Whether the
recusal requests get

281
00:14:25,499 --> 00:14:28,202
justices to sit out the
case or not, the request

282
00:14:28,268 --> 00:14:30,971
itself is a message to the
public.

283
00:14:31,038 --> 00:14:33,140
>> Maybe the goal is
actually to try to change

284
00:14:33,207 --> 00:14:36,076
the composition of the
court in a way that you

285
00:14:36,143 --> 00:14:39,046
think will help you, but at
the very least, it is an

286
00:14:39,112 --> 00:14:41,114
attempt maybe to raise some
doubts about whether we

287
00:14:41,181 --> 00:14:43,116
should give credence to the
legal decision that this

288
00:14:43,183 --> 00:14:45,652
body is issuing.
>> Reporting from Madison.

289
00:14:45,719 --> 00:14:48,722
I'm Zac Schultz for "Here&
Now".

290
00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:52,459
>> Harkening back to the
Marquette poll, when asked

291
00:14:52,526 --> 00:14:55,395
which is more important, a
majority of registered

292
00:14:55,462 --> 00:14:59,333
voters at 58%, say they are
more concerned about

293
00:14:59,399 --> 00:15:02,870
property taxes, while 41%
are more concerned about

294
00:15:02,936 --> 00:15:06,707
funding for K-12 public
schools. This is voter

295
00:15:06,773 --> 00:15:09,743
sentiment as residents
recoil over hikes in

296
00:15:09,810 --> 00:15:14,481
property taxes that largely
go to fund schools, and the

297
00:15:14,548 --> 00:15:17,284
April 7th ballots will see
more than 70 school

298
00:15:17,351 --> 00:15:19,586
referendum questions
seeking additional funding

299
00:15:19,653 --> 00:15:23,090
from taxpayers. The squeeze
is the result of an

300
00:15:23,156 --> 00:15:25,993
increase in per pupil
revenue limits, without

301
00:15:26,059 --> 00:15:29,396
accompanying state funding
and underfunded costs of

302
00:15:29,463 --> 00:15:32,699
special education, but some
districts want residents to

303
00:15:32,766 --> 00:15:36,003
see what else is
contributing to the cost.

304
00:15:36,069 --> 00:15:39,640
Private voucher schools
green Bay is the first

305
00:15:39,706 --> 00:15:42,209
municipality in the state
to show those costs on

306
00:15:42,276 --> 00:15:45,112
residents property tax
bills. Mayor Eric Genrich

307
00:15:45,179 --> 00:15:48,348
was the tie breaking vote
to show that line item on

308
00:15:48,415 --> 00:15:49,883
the bills. And mayor,
thanks very much for being

309
00:15:49,950 --> 00:15:52,186
here.
>> Of course. Thanks so

310
00:15:52,252 --> 00:15:54,454
much for having me.
>> So there's a lot to

311
00:15:54,521 --> 00:15:57,457
unpack here with all of
this, but what has been the

312
00:15:57,524 --> 00:15:59,359
reaction in green Bay of
people's property tax bills

313
00:15:59,426 --> 00:16:02,496
this year?
>> Well, you know, I think

314
00:16:02,563 --> 00:16:04,565
we're feeling the crunch
like everyone is across the

315
00:16:04,631 --> 00:16:07,067
state of Wisconsin, not
just with property taxes,

316
00:16:07,134 --> 00:16:09,570
but just the cost of living
generally. And I think

317
00:16:09,636 --> 00:16:11,905
that's why we're seeing
some of those answers that

318
00:16:11,972 --> 00:16:14,741
you were highlighting
through the Marquette Law

319
00:16:14,808 --> 00:16:17,578
Poll. People are really
struggling with the cost of

320
00:16:17,644 --> 00:16:20,747
living these days, and
property taxes are a pretty

321
00:16:20,814 --> 00:16:23,250
big number, and they're
really tangible and people

322
00:16:23,317 --> 00:16:25,586
see those annually. And so
we're certainly feeling

323
00:16:25,652 --> 00:16:29,156
that feedback as well. You
know what we've advocated

324
00:16:29,223 --> 00:16:32,426
for both for public
education, but more

325
00:16:32,492 --> 00:16:35,429
specifically with municipal
government funding, is more

326
00:16:35,495 --> 00:16:37,764
assistance from the state
of Wisconsin. We've made

327
00:16:37,831 --> 00:16:40,601
some progress in that
regard with some reforms

328
00:16:40,667 --> 00:16:43,537
made to to the shared
revenue program, but we'd

329
00:16:43,604 --> 00:16:45,906
love a more diversified
revenue stream with local

330
00:16:45,973 --> 00:16:49,309
sales tax options being
available to, to pull down

331
00:16:49,376 --> 00:16:52,045
those property taxes, which
are, you know, they're just

332
00:16:52,112 --> 00:16:54,014
out of line when you
compare the state of

333
00:16:54,081 --> 00:16:56,783
Wisconsin to a lot of other
states across the country.

334
00:16:56,850 --> 00:16:59,753
>> I see that green Bay
schools will not go to

335
00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:02,155
referendum on April 7th,
but is looking at a deficit

336
00:17:02,222 --> 00:17:05,959
and will seek one in
November. Why is this the

337
00:17:06,026 --> 00:17:09,663
same all over Wisconsin?
>> Well, I think you

338
00:17:09,730 --> 00:17:12,533
referenced, you know, the
school funding formula

339
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,102
really is broken in the
state of Wisconsin and has

340
00:17:15,169 --> 00:17:19,072
been broken for some time.
Green Bay Area Public

341
00:17:19,139 --> 00:17:22,042
Schools is also involved in
a lawsuit that Law Forward

342
00:17:22,109 --> 00:17:24,378
is bringing forward with
some other school districts

343
00:17:24,444 --> 00:17:27,381
across the state to
essentially make that case

344
00:17:27,447 --> 00:17:30,250
to our our, our courts and
ultimately probably to our

345
00:17:30,317 --> 00:17:33,086
state Supreme Court to say
that, you know, we have a

346
00:17:33,153 --> 00:17:36,757
our kids and our residents
have a constitutional right

347
00:17:36,823 --> 00:17:39,993
to a sound basic education
in the state of Wisconsin.

348
00:17:40,060 --> 00:17:42,996
And, and we don't feel as
though I don't feel. And I

349
00:17:43,063 --> 00:17:44,998
think a lot of people don't
feel that the state is

350
00:17:45,065 --> 00:17:47,034
meeting its obligation in
that regard.

351
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:49,770
>> How well do these
explanations resonate with

352
00:17:49,837 --> 00:17:52,873
your taxpayers?
>> I think people

353
00:17:52,940 --> 00:17:55,108
appreciate it. You know,
nobody ever really likes

354
00:17:55,175 --> 00:17:58,745
paying a property tax bill,
but they want to know where

355
00:17:58,812 --> 00:18:01,548
those funds are going. And
so when this was brought

356
00:18:01,615 --> 00:18:03,684
forward to our common
council, that really was

357
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:05,886
the winning argument. It's
something that our public

358
00:18:05,953 --> 00:18:08,422
school district has been
calling for for several

359
00:18:08,488 --> 00:18:11,658
years. Our previous council
shot it down. This council

360
00:18:11,725 --> 00:18:14,828
moved it forward and
allowed us to work with the

361
00:18:14,895 --> 00:18:17,397
Department of Revenue, with
our county treasurer to

362
00:18:17,464 --> 00:18:19,533
figure out exactly, you
know, how we could place

363
00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:23,003
this information on the
bill. But, you know, for

364
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:26,807
green Bay area taxpayers,
$14 million is going for

365
00:18:26,874 --> 00:18:30,110
this purpose, just under 10
million for the City of

366
00:18:30,177 --> 00:18:33,046
Green Bay proper. So that's
a big number. You break it

367
00:18:33,113 --> 00:18:36,483
down to the average
homeowner, you know,

368
00:18:36,550 --> 00:18:40,454
$300,000 home. I think
that's about $270 going for

369
00:18:40,521 --> 00:18:42,656
for this, this voucher
program.

370
00:18:42,723 --> 00:18:45,526
>> So again, I was going to
back up and suggest that

371
00:18:45,592 --> 00:18:48,495
what you're talking about
there is the line item of

372
00:18:48,562 --> 00:18:53,800
the voucher schools on on
the property tax bill. And

373
00:18:53,867 --> 00:18:58,472
again in your mind, why is
that important to delineate?

374
00:18:58,539 --> 00:19:00,674
>> Well, again, this was
something that our school

375
00:19:00,741 --> 00:19:03,210
district felt very strongly
about for, for some time.

376
00:19:03,277 --> 00:19:05,946
They brought it to our
common council. And we just

377
00:19:06,013 --> 00:19:08,782
felt like transparency is
really the best answer here.

378
00:19:08,849 --> 00:19:11,785
I think a lot of people
assume public dollars are

379
00:19:11,852 --> 00:19:14,922
going to public schools.
When you show this to them,

380
00:19:14,988 --> 00:19:17,558
it tends to to raise some
questions. But even if

381
00:19:17,624 --> 00:19:21,395
you're an advocate of of
private voucher schools,

382
00:19:21,461 --> 00:19:23,897
you know, I think this
enables one to, to make

383
00:19:23,964 --> 00:19:25,933
that argument, you know,
the system that we have in

384
00:19:25,999 --> 00:19:28,268
place is the one that
voucher advocates have

385
00:19:28,335 --> 00:19:31,071
asked for at the state of
Wisconsin. And so if

386
00:19:31,138 --> 00:19:33,106
they're not comfortable
with it, you know, they

387
00:19:33,173 --> 00:19:35,509
should bring forward an
alternate way of funding

388
00:19:35,576 --> 00:19:37,678
education in the state of
Wisconsin. And and I know

389
00:19:37,744 --> 00:19:39,813
that, you know, public
school advocates have been

390
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,015
doing that for some time.
And we're certainly looking

391
00:19:42,082 --> 00:19:44,518
forward to seeing how that
lawsuit moves forward and

392
00:19:44,585 --> 00:19:47,254
how the legislature
responds to this debate in

393
00:19:47,321 --> 00:19:50,390
the next session.
>> Meanwhile, it looks like

394
00:19:50,457 --> 00:19:53,260
green Bay schools will be
even worse off deficit wise

395
00:19:53,327 --> 00:19:57,431
in the 2728 school year
when your last referendum

396
00:19:57,497 --> 00:20:00,200
money runs out. What kind
of cost cutting measures

397
00:20:00,267 --> 00:20:04,404
have your schools had to
undergo? Do you know,

398
00:20:04,471 --> 00:20:05,873
significant?
>> You know, just over the

399
00:20:05,939 --> 00:20:09,309
last few years, numerous
schools have been closed in

400
00:20:09,376 --> 00:20:12,513
the district. Now, some of
that is related to

401
00:20:12,579 --> 00:20:14,948
demographic change that
we're seeing in cities

402
00:20:15,015 --> 00:20:17,150
across the state of
Wisconsin and nation are

403
00:20:17,217 --> 00:20:20,654
are really seeing. But the
way that that vouchers are

404
00:20:20,721 --> 00:20:23,690
funded, you know,
exacerbates this funding

405
00:20:23,757 --> 00:20:26,293
crunch for our districts.
And so even more hard

406
00:20:26,360 --> 00:20:28,829
questions are going to have
to be asked, not just in

407
00:20:28,896 --> 00:20:31,665
this budget cycle, but as
you said, in years to come

408
00:20:31,732 --> 00:20:35,102
where that deficit gets
even larger and worse.

409
00:20:35,169 --> 00:20:37,638
>> And it's my
understanding that the caps

410
00:20:37,704 --> 00:20:42,042
on the voucher program come
off soon, correct?

411
00:20:44,044 --> 00:20:45,846
>> Yeah. I mean, that's my
understanding too. You know,

412
00:20:45,913 --> 00:20:48,682
obviously not a not a state
policy maker these days,

413
00:20:48,749 --> 00:20:51,818
but that's my recollection
as well that in 26, 27, you

414
00:20:51,885 --> 00:20:55,122
know, that that number
actually, you know, gets

415
00:20:55,189 --> 00:20:59,193
removed. So we've already
seen, I think, a 900%

416
00:20:59,259 --> 00:21:02,629
increase in the levy growth
that that is devoted to

417
00:21:02,696 --> 00:21:04,932
voucher school spending
here in the district over

418
00:21:04,998 --> 00:21:07,267
the last ten years. So you
can, you know, if we

419
00:21:07,334 --> 00:21:09,336
continue on that trajectory,
it's really just not

420
00:21:09,403 --> 00:21:11,371
sustainable.
>> All right. Well, we will

421
00:21:11,438 --> 00:21:14,942
be watching the referendum
results as they come in on

422
00:21:15,008 --> 00:21:17,678
April 7th and be looking
toward green Bay as well.

423
00:21:17,744 --> 00:21:21,415
Mayor, thanks very much.
>> Thanks for having me.

424
00:21:21,481 --> 00:21:25,285
>> Now that 125 million
state dollars are coming to

425
00:21:25,352 --> 00:21:28,422
the rescue for communities
across Wisconsin, poisoned

426
00:21:28,488 --> 00:21:32,059
by the forever chemicals
PFAs, the question is, when

427
00:21:32,125 --> 00:21:35,495
will the money come and how
much will go where those

428
00:21:35,562 --> 00:21:37,898
questions are front of mind.
In the town of Stella,

429
00:21:37,965 --> 00:21:42,269
population about 650, with
some of the highest

430
00:21:42,336 --> 00:21:45,606
concentrations of PFAs in
the country. Town Chair

431
00:21:45,672 --> 00:21:48,175
William Casey Crump is here,
and thanks very much for

432
00:21:48,242 --> 00:21:50,511
being here.
>> Thank you for having me.

433
00:21:50,577 --> 00:21:52,479
>> So what was your
reaction when you learned

434
00:21:52,546 --> 00:21:56,250
the funds would finally be
released?

435
00:21:56,316 --> 00:22:00,821
>> It was it was a relief,
to be honest. It's been,

436
00:22:00,888 --> 00:22:02,956
you know, two years or
three years roughly, I

437
00:22:03,023 --> 00:22:05,592
think, since those funds
were originally talked

438
00:22:05,659 --> 00:22:07,895
about. And to have the
Senate and the governor

439
00:22:07,961 --> 00:22:10,330
finally come to an
agreement and get that

440
00:22:10,397 --> 00:22:13,634
stuff signed off on and get
it out is, is the first of

441
00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:16,003
of many steps yet to come,
I think.

442
00:22:16,069 --> 00:22:18,172
>> Yeah. Because what do
you know about how much

443
00:22:18,238 --> 00:22:22,543
Stella will receive?
>> That's the great unknown.

444
00:22:22,609 --> 00:22:25,412
I talked to DNR yesterday
as a matter of fact. And

445
00:22:25,479 --> 00:22:28,215
and we're going to they're
still trying to figure out

446
00:22:28,282 --> 00:22:30,717
exactly who's going to
control the money, how it's

447
00:22:30,784 --> 00:22:34,021
going to be distributed.
They're not even sure

448
00:22:34,087 --> 00:22:36,056
themselves exactly. You
know, whether it's going to

449
00:22:36,123 --> 00:22:39,793
be municipalities like
Stella that end up getting

450
00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:42,229
some of the money or, or
our residents, I should say

451
00:22:42,296 --> 00:22:45,132
not not necessarily
municipality or it's going

452
00:22:45,199 --> 00:22:47,534
to be public water works
that get the money. You

453
00:22:47,601 --> 00:22:49,970
know, we've got Wausau,
we've got Tomahawk and some

454
00:22:50,037 --> 00:22:53,740
and Rhinelander Yvonne that
have well, issues for their

455
00:22:53,807 --> 00:22:56,210
township, for their towns.
Whereas out here in Starks

456
00:22:56,276 --> 00:22:59,913
we're individual wells. And
so each homeowner is

457
00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:02,416
responsible for that. And
so it's very important,

458
00:23:02,482 --> 00:23:04,351
hopefully, that there will
be some of that money that

459
00:23:04,418 --> 00:23:06,520
will go directly to those
residents.

460
00:23:06,587 --> 00:23:08,755
>> Because would that be
priority one for the funds?

461
00:23:08,822 --> 00:23:12,025
And Stella Private Wells.
>> I would love to see it

462
00:23:12,092 --> 00:23:14,928
become priority one. Either
that or treatment systems.

463
00:23:14,995 --> 00:23:17,898
The way it is right now is
the DNR did have some funds

464
00:23:17,965 --> 00:23:20,200
that they made available
for people to have their

465
00:23:20,267 --> 00:23:23,237
wells. Redrilled the
problem is when those Re

466
00:23:23,303 --> 00:23:25,772
drills were done, they
still had PFAs in their

467
00:23:25,839 --> 00:23:28,675
water, which made their
water undrinkable. Some of

468
00:23:28,742 --> 00:23:31,245
them came up, still had
PFAs, but it was below the

469
00:23:31,311 --> 00:23:34,281
level. So the second area
secondary treatment on that

470
00:23:34,348 --> 00:23:36,984
is to put in a water
treatment system in your

471
00:23:37,050 --> 00:23:41,555
home. It's, it's we don't
want or I, I, I feel like

472
00:23:41,622 --> 00:23:44,825
we don't want a kitchen
faucet treatment. We want a

473
00:23:44,892 --> 00:23:47,060
whole house treatment
system. Because if you're

474
00:23:47,127 --> 00:23:49,496
only getting your drinking
water from your kitchen

475
00:23:49,563 --> 00:23:52,032
sink, it's very hard to
brush teeth. It's very hard

476
00:23:52,099 --> 00:23:54,902
to, you know, take showers.
It's it makes it much more

477
00:23:54,968 --> 00:23:57,571
difficult. So that's why a
whole house system would be

478
00:23:57,638 --> 00:23:59,239
important. And those are
expensive. So again, money

479
00:23:59,306 --> 00:24:01,341
for that would be a
blessing.

480
00:24:01,408 --> 00:24:03,777
>> Why not jump right to
the whole house system

481
00:24:03,844 --> 00:24:07,281
instead of going through
drilling new wells or

482
00:24:07,347 --> 00:24:10,484
deeper wells?
>> Well, I think that if

483
00:24:10,551 --> 00:24:13,620
they can get clean water
and they can get a, a well

484
00:24:13,687 --> 00:24:17,324
that works, that's a much
longer term solution. And

485
00:24:17,391 --> 00:24:21,628
also it's, it's not it's
not going to be any more of

486
00:24:21,695 --> 00:24:24,631
a great cost on the
residents. The whole home

487
00:24:24,698 --> 00:24:28,502
treatments require filters.
Those filters run 300 to

488
00:24:28,569 --> 00:24:30,871
$500. They recommend you
change those quarterly.

489
00:24:30,938 --> 00:24:33,507
There's two filters. So
that's $1,000 each time

490
00:24:33,574 --> 00:24:36,109
they have to change the
filter. So that's roughly

491
00:24:36,176 --> 00:24:39,580
4000 a year. That's very,
very rough on our on our

492
00:24:39,646 --> 00:24:42,716
families out here. We're
not a rich community. We're

493
00:24:42,783 --> 00:24:45,953
not vacation homes. We're
farmers. We're ranchers.

494
00:24:46,019 --> 00:24:48,589
We're small, you know,
we're we're blue collar

495
00:24:48,655 --> 00:24:50,457
people.
>> So we've reported on

496
00:24:50,524 --> 00:24:53,660
this, but what is the known
source of the PFAs in your

497
00:24:53,727 --> 00:24:57,064
community?
>> Well, it's definitely

498
00:24:57,130 --> 00:24:59,733
there is a lot of
information that points to

499
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,203
the paper mills, the sludge
from the paper mills. And

500
00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:06,139
I'm not sure if you know
how that works. And I won't

501
00:25:06,206 --> 00:25:08,308
go into great detail on
that. But when they wash

502
00:25:08,375 --> 00:25:10,511
the paper, all of that
water gets collected. All

503
00:25:10,577 --> 00:25:13,180
the stuff that comes off
the paper gets collected.

504
00:25:13,247 --> 00:25:16,183
And it was looked at back
in the 60s and 70s as a

505
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:18,785
very, very high nutrient
rich fertilizer. So they

506
00:25:18,852 --> 00:25:21,455
spread it on the fields out
here for years and years

507
00:25:21,522 --> 00:25:23,690
and years. The property
that I own, they spread it

508
00:25:23,757 --> 00:25:26,960
clear back into mid 70s, I
think up until probably the

509
00:25:27,027 --> 00:25:31,565
time we bought the land.
And so paper mill has been

510
00:25:31,632 --> 00:25:34,301
a big part of that. And the
paper mill here made

511
00:25:34,368 --> 00:25:37,404
microwave popcorn bags.
Those bags are lined, were

512
00:25:37,471 --> 00:25:40,207
lined with PFAs to keep
them from leaking, to keep

513
00:25:40,274 --> 00:25:42,376
the butter and the oil
inside it from leaking out.

514
00:25:42,442 --> 00:25:44,344
And that's where the
majority of the PFAs came

515
00:25:44,411 --> 00:25:46,513
from when they were
treating those microwave

516
00:25:46,580 --> 00:25:48,682
popcorn bags. That's what
we've been told. That's

517
00:25:48,749 --> 00:25:51,618
what the history shows. And
that, of course, is what

518
00:25:51,685 --> 00:25:56,190
the DNR pointed to in their
announcement of a linked

519
00:25:56,256 --> 00:26:00,227
source. But the paper mill
Ahlstrom, who is like the

520
00:26:00,294 --> 00:26:03,063
third owner, I think since
I've lived here in the last

521
00:26:03,130 --> 00:26:05,232
20 years, they have stepped
forward and they are

522
00:26:05,299 --> 00:26:07,701
providing some drinking
water to families that are

523
00:26:07,768 --> 00:26:10,637
have concerns. The problem
with that is it's not a

524
00:26:10,704 --> 00:26:12,739
solution.
>> Well, we will keep

525
00:26:12,806 --> 00:26:15,209
watching the situation
there and we appreciate

526
00:26:15,275 --> 00:26:18,745
your time.
>> You betcha. Thank you.

527
00:26:18,812 --> 00:26:21,381
>> For more on this and
other issues facing

528
00:26:21,448 --> 00:26:24,551
Wisconsin, visit our
website at PBS Wisconsin

529
00:26:24,618 --> 00:26:27,588
and then click on the news
tab. That's our program for

530
00:26:27,654 --> 00:26:29,790
tonight. I'm Frederica
Freyberg.

531
00:26:29,857 --> 00:26:33,093
[MUSIC]
>> Funding for Here and now

532
00:26:45,305 --> 00:26:48,075
is provided by the fund for
Journalism and Friends of

533
00:26:48,141 --> 00:26:49,810
PBS Wisconsin.