1 00:00:05,873 --> 00:00:09,476 >> The following program is a PBS Wisconsin original 2 00:00:09,543 --> 00:00:12,379 production. >> Today, as I announce my 3 00:00:12,446 --> 00:00:14,681 intention to not seek reelection in November, I 4 00:00:14,748 --> 00:00:17,251 do so with deep gratitude and with pride in the work 5 00:00:17,317 --> 00:00:20,220 we've done. >> After 13 years as 6 00:00:21,188 --> 00:00:24,925 Assembly Speaker, the longest in state history, 7 00:00:24,992 --> 00:00:27,494 Robin Vos is stepping down from office. 8 00:00:27,561 --> 00:00:30,697 [MUSIC] I'm Frederica Freyberg. 9 00:00:31,331 --> 00:00:35,302 Tonight on "Here& Now", analysis of Speaker Vos 10 00:00:35,369 --> 00:00:38,372 departure and the final business of the legislative 11 00:00:38,438 --> 00:00:41,742 session. An immigration attorney on the fast 12 00:00:41,808 --> 00:00:44,645 changing legal landscape. Candidates for governor 13 00:00:44,711 --> 00:00:48,482 weigh in on data centers and how teams of people are 14 00:00:48,549 --> 00:00:51,919 preserving indigenous canoes thousands of years 15 00:00:51,985 --> 00:00:55,789 old. It's "Here& Now" for February 20th. 16 00:00:56,924 --> 00:00:59,359 >> Funding for Here and Now is provided by the Focus 17 00:00:59,426 --> 00:01:04,097 Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin. 18 00:01:11,305 --> 00:01:13,574 >> A powerful figure in the state legislature is not 19 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,645 seeking reelection after 22 years representing his 20 00:01:18,712 --> 00:01:22,249 Racine County district and 13 years leading the 21 00:01:22,316 --> 00:01:25,052 Assembly, Republican Speaker Robin Vos said late 22 00:01:25,118 --> 00:01:28,589 this week he is retiring from office. The Vos 23 00:01:28,655 --> 00:01:31,625 announcement comes as Democrats try to flip 24 00:01:31,692 --> 00:01:34,828 control in the legislature in upcoming elections under 25 00:01:34,895 --> 00:01:38,098 new voting maps. Senior political reporter Zach 26 00:01:38,165 --> 00:01:41,134 Schultz is at the Capitol with more on. Hi, Zach. 27 00:01:41,201 --> 00:01:43,804 >> Hello, Fred. >> So describe just how 28 00:01:43,871 --> 00:01:47,541 powerful Speaker Vos has been in the legislature. 29 00:01:47,608 --> 00:01:50,944 >> Well, he is the longest serving Assembly speaker in 30 00:01:51,011 --> 00:01:53,981 state history, and that did not come without him 31 00:01:54,047 --> 00:01:56,783 learning how to consolidate power within his own party, 32 00:01:56,850 --> 00:01:59,953 within his own caucus in the Assembly. He had a lot 33 00:02:00,020 --> 00:02:03,290 of nicknames from both friends and foes. Vos Vos 34 00:02:03,357 --> 00:02:06,560 the Shadow Governor. It was basically known that 35 00:02:06,627 --> 00:02:09,162 nothing could become law without him saying yes, and 36 00:02:09,229 --> 00:02:11,832 signing off and allowing it to come to the floor in the 37 00:02:11,899 --> 00:02:13,634 assembly. And he controlled that chamber for quite a 38 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:15,802 long time. >> What does his departure 39 00:02:15,869 --> 00:02:19,072 say about how real the potential of November 40 00:02:19,139 --> 00:02:22,075 elections might be for the partisan makeup of the 41 00:02:22,142 --> 00:02:24,077 legislature? >> Well, Democrats 42 00:02:24,144 --> 00:02:26,280 certainly see it as a positive sign. They're 43 00:02:26,346 --> 00:02:28,248 definitely proclaiming in all their press releases 44 00:02:28,315 --> 00:02:30,517 that this is the sign. Republicans know that this 45 00:02:30,584 --> 00:02:33,187 is going to be a Democratic fall, and they're going to 46 00:02:33,253 --> 00:02:36,123 pick up those five seats that they need to flip the 47 00:02:36,190 --> 00:02:39,092 assembly. I wouldn't look as far into it as that. In 48 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:40,961 his announcement, he wasn't going to seek reelection. 49 00:02:41,028 --> 00:02:43,564 Vos said he had a mild heart attack last fall. He 50 00:02:43,630 --> 00:02:46,066 certainly is. He said he's going to continue to 51 00:02:46,133 --> 00:02:48,669 campaign. He certainly set up a machine within the 52 00:02:48,735 --> 00:02:51,071 Republican Party to win those seats, even when 53 00:02:51,138 --> 00:02:52,940 they're facing into headwinds, so I wouldn't 54 00:02:53,006 --> 00:02:55,776 count that out. It's a lot about optics, though. 55 00:02:55,843 --> 00:02:57,811 Democrats are going to campaign and say they've 56 00:02:57,878 --> 00:03:00,147 got momentum because of this. And certainly the 57 00:03:00,214 --> 00:03:02,349 idea of what the Assembly will look like in the 58 00:03:02,416 --> 00:03:05,118 future without Robin Vos, no matter who is in charge, 59 00:03:05,185 --> 00:03:07,287 means there's a lot of uncertainty coming to the 60 00:03:07,354 --> 00:03:10,524 chamber and to the Capitol. >> How realistic is a flip 61 00:03:10,591 --> 00:03:13,827 from Republican to Democratic majority in the 62 00:03:13,894 --> 00:03:16,864 Assembly and Senate? >> Well, in the Senate, 63 00:03:16,930 --> 00:03:18,932 it's two seats that the Democrats need to pick up. 64 00:03:18,999 --> 00:03:21,869 They have their eyes on those, and they feel very 65 00:03:21,935 --> 00:03:23,971 confident that they've got good candidates in seats. 66 00:03:24,037 --> 00:03:26,573 They've got some open seats. As Republicans are retiring 67 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:28,308 and not choosing to defend some of those seats, 68 00:03:28,375 --> 00:03:30,677 they're optimistic in that chamber and the Assembly. 69 00:03:30,744 --> 00:03:33,514 It is an uphill climb. They they had those same seats 70 00:03:33,580 --> 00:03:36,250 that they had two years ago. And the Senate side, it was 71 00:03:36,316 --> 00:03:39,186 seats that weren't up two years ago. So they couldn't 72 00:03:39,253 --> 00:03:41,255 have done it. The Assembly Democrats had their chance. 73 00:03:41,321 --> 00:03:43,924 They they won ten, but they lost the five. They needed 74 00:03:43,991 --> 00:03:46,193 to flip it. They've retained candidates. 75 00:03:46,260 --> 00:03:48,395 They've got their eyes on who they want to see 76 00:03:48,462 --> 00:03:50,664 targeted. We all know what those battleground races 77 00:03:50,731 --> 00:03:53,567 are going to be. A lot of it depends on what the wave 78 00:03:53,634 --> 00:03:57,304 looks like at the top. If there is one one way or the 79 00:03:57,371 --> 00:03:59,306 other, but down ballot. And that's one thing Vos has 80 00:03:59,373 --> 00:04:01,508 been known for, is insulating his candidates 81 00:04:01,575 --> 00:04:04,311 in those seats so that they don't face some of those 82 00:04:04,378 --> 00:04:06,246 political headwinds that may impact other candidates. 83 00:04:06,313 --> 00:04:08,949 So it is a complete toss up in the Assembly. 84 00:04:09,016 --> 00:04:11,952 >> Meanwhile, the Assembly was adjourning with a 85 00:04:12,019 --> 00:04:14,421 little undone business on the floor, including that 86 00:04:14,488 --> 00:04:16,423 deal between the Republicans and the 87 00:04:16,490 --> 00:04:19,726 governor over property tax relief. That could still 88 00:04:19,793 --> 00:04:23,230 happen. Or what do we think? >> Well, there's always 89 00:04:23,297 --> 00:04:26,166 time. The Assembly Republicans say that this 90 00:04:26,233 --> 00:04:28,435 is the last time they're going to be in session, 91 00:04:28,502 --> 00:04:31,238 that they're taking the rest of the year off to get 92 00:04:31,305 --> 00:04:33,340 ready for the campaign. However, there are floor 93 00:04:33,407 --> 00:04:35,475 session dates available in March if they want to come 94 00:04:35,542 --> 00:04:38,111 back in regular order. And obviously they can always 95 00:04:38,178 --> 00:04:41,215 come back in special session or extraordinary 96 00:04:41,281 --> 00:04:43,550 of deal that could get done on a moment's notice, 97 00:04:43,617 --> 00:04:45,586 simply because there's a lot of political incentives 98 00:04:45,652 --> 00:04:48,422 going into the fall for both sides to want to 99 00:04:48,488 --> 00:04:51,491 figure out how to spend some of this surplus and 100 00:04:51,558 --> 00:04:54,962 campaign on that. However, the two sides are not on 101 00:04:55,028 --> 00:04:57,264 the same page right now, and they are running out of 102 00:04:57,331 --> 00:05:00,033 their own set deadlines for how long they have, so who 103 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,102 knows? >> I wanted to ask you 104 00:05:02,169 --> 00:05:05,572 about the bill that passed in both chambers. That's 105 00:05:05,639 --> 00:05:09,042 the Medicaid expansion expansion to give one year 106 00:05:09,109 --> 00:05:12,145 postpartum coverage to to new mothers. I thought Vos 107 00:05:12,212 --> 00:05:15,215 didn't like that. >> Yes, he was the lone 108 00:05:15,282 --> 00:05:17,885 person standing in the way of that bill becoming law 109 00:05:17,951 --> 00:05:20,187 for at least a couple sessions now. He told me 110 00:05:20,254 --> 00:05:22,322 last December he didn't believe in expanding the 111 00:05:22,389 --> 00:05:24,825 welfare state, which is why he opposed Medicaid 112 00:05:24,892 --> 00:05:27,294 expansion. However, the people that were lined up 113 00:05:27,361 --> 00:05:29,162 the Republicans out front to announce they'd reached 114 00:05:29,229 --> 00:05:32,366 a compromise were those very vulnerable Assembly 115 00:05:32,432 --> 00:05:34,201 Republicans running to protect that majority for 116 00:05:34,268 --> 00:05:36,703 next year. It wasn't a coincidence that they were 117 00:05:36,770 --> 00:05:38,739 ones to announce that that bill was going to pass. And 118 00:05:38,805 --> 00:05:41,742 in the end, Vos voted for it on the floor. 119 00:05:41,808 --> 00:05:44,178 >> All right. Well, Zac Schultz, thanks so much. 120 00:05:44,244 --> 00:05:47,548 >> Thanks, Fred. >> Governor Tony Evers, 121 00:05:47,614 --> 00:05:50,817 last state of the state address called 2026, the 122 00:05:50,884 --> 00:05:53,987 year of the neighbor, and asked Wisconsinites to be 123 00:05:54,054 --> 00:05:56,523 good neighbors to each other. The neighborly 124 00:05:56,590 --> 00:05:59,259 spirit was strained by week's end, as Republican 125 00:05:59,326 --> 00:06:01,595 lawmakers and the governor were still working to reach 126 00:06:01,662 --> 00:06:05,199 an accord on property tax relief before the 127 00:06:05,265 --> 00:06:08,068 legislature adjourns for the session. Republicans 128 00:06:08,135 --> 00:06:12,105 blame a spike in taxes on the governor's 400 year 129 00:06:12,172 --> 00:06:16,810 veto that enshrined a $325 per student annual school 130 00:06:16,877 --> 00:06:22,115 funding increase until 2425. Here are Evers and Senate 131 00:06:22,182 --> 00:06:24,785 Republican Majority Leader Devin LeMahiue speaking on 132 00:06:24,852 --> 00:06:28,422 the matter. >> A decade of Republicans 133 00:06:29,256 --> 00:06:32,693 consistently failing to meaningful invest 134 00:06:32,759 --> 00:06:35,362 meaningfully to invest in our kids and our K through 135 00:06:35,429 --> 00:06:39,800 12 schools has consequences. Wisconsinites. 136 00:06:39,867 --> 00:06:42,035 Wisconsinites have been going to referendum in high 137 00:06:42,102 --> 00:06:44,838 numbers in years, raising their own property taxes 138 00:06:44,905 --> 00:06:48,742 just to keep the school lights on. It started long 139 00:06:48,809 --> 00:06:52,446 before I became governor. I get Republicans want to 140 00:06:52,513 --> 00:06:56,216 blame my 400 year veto for property taxes going up. 141 00:06:56,283 --> 00:06:59,620 Why, of course it's politics. Of course, 142 00:06:59,686 --> 00:07:02,256 Republicans running under fair maps need someone else 143 00:07:02,322 --> 00:07:06,460 to blame for for failing to fund our schools at the 144 00:07:06,527 --> 00:07:10,030 levels I've asked them to for about two decades of my 145 00:07:10,097 --> 00:07:12,065 life. >> Thanks to strong 146 00:07:12,132 --> 00:07:15,435 Republican majorities here in the legislature, 147 00:07:15,502 --> 00:07:17,571 Wisconsin families have only seen one example of 148 00:07:17,638 --> 00:07:20,440 what state government could look like with full 149 00:07:20,507 --> 00:07:23,944 Democratic control. Governor Evers disastrous 150 00:07:24,011 --> 00:07:26,914 400 year veto that is driving property taxes 151 00:07:26,980 --> 00:07:30,083 through the roof. The. If the Democrats were in 152 00:07:30,150 --> 00:07:32,986 charge in Madison, Wisconsin would be a very 153 00:07:33,053 --> 00:07:36,623 different place. >> While the immigration 154 00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:39,560 enforcement surge in Minneapolis has wound down, 155 00:07:39,626 --> 00:07:43,063 targeted arrests, including in Wisconsin, continue. The 156 00:07:43,130 --> 00:07:47,501 mass deportation policy. Has the immigration system 157 00:07:47,568 --> 00:07:50,671 scrambling to keep up. What kind of limbo does this 158 00:07:50,737 --> 00:07:53,974 leave people in, and what is happening in the 159 00:07:54,041 --> 00:07:57,444 immigration system? We turn to immigration attorney 160 00:07:57,511 --> 00:07:59,246 Grant Sovern, thanks very much for being here. 161 00:07:59,313 --> 00:08:02,015 >> Thank you for your interest. 162 00:08:02,082 --> 00:08:05,452 the immigration system right now as an emergency 163 00:08:05,519 --> 00:08:09,122 on two fronts. How so? >> Well, on one side, there 164 00:08:09,189 --> 00:08:12,693 are just so many more people being picked up than 165 00:08:12,759 --> 00:08:15,629 there ever have been before. I mean, it appears that 166 00:08:15,696 --> 00:08:18,699 there's some sort of quota that Ice and Border Patrol 167 00:08:18,765 --> 00:08:22,703 have to reach. So it's just an unbelievable, 168 00:08:22,769 --> 00:08:25,239 unprecedented volume of people that we have to 169 00:08:25,305 --> 00:08:27,841 address, and we have to get to them quickly. If we 170 00:08:27,908 --> 00:08:30,844 don't find them within a day or two days, or at the 171 00:08:30,911 --> 00:08:34,081 most three, they get moved to a facility away from 172 00:08:34,147 --> 00:08:36,984 their family, away from a lawyer who can help them in 173 00:08:37,050 --> 00:08:39,820 a jurisdiction that's often much more difficult. But on 174 00:08:39,887 --> 00:08:42,656 the second side, the government is just changing 175 00:08:42,723 --> 00:08:46,927 the rules every day, every week. Something that 176 00:08:46,994 --> 00:08:49,229 lawyers have to find out about when you're in court 177 00:08:49,296 --> 00:08:51,798 and waiting for a hearing. And they're just changing 178 00:08:51,865 --> 00:08:54,801 the rules that make due process almost impossible 179 00:08:54,868 --> 00:08:58,338 for anybody to get. >> Speaking of changing the 180 00:08:58,405 --> 00:09:01,875 rules, what are you seeing among people who have 181 00:09:01,942 --> 00:09:05,512 followed all the rules to become U.S. citizens? Or 182 00:09:05,579 --> 00:09:08,615 they're here on some kind of protected status or 183 00:09:08,682 --> 00:09:11,385 refugee status or something like that? 184 00:09:11,451 --> 00:09:13,754 >> Yeah, I think, you know, we hear from the government 185 00:09:13,820 --> 00:09:15,689 that all immigrants are criminals and therefore 186 00:09:15,756 --> 00:09:19,259 they should be deported. But and then we also hear, 187 00:09:19,326 --> 00:09:21,828 if only you wait in line like everybody else, if 188 00:09:21,895 --> 00:09:24,531 only you file the right application, which frankly, 189 00:09:24,598 --> 00:09:29,002 does not exist anymore. But successive presidential 190 00:09:29,069 --> 00:09:32,206 administrations have come up with their own programs 191 00:09:32,272 --> 00:09:34,641 because Congress basically hasn't done an overhaul of 192 00:09:34,708 --> 00:09:38,245 the immigration system since 1952. But because of 193 00:09:38,312 --> 00:09:41,014 that, the next president can just cancel those 194 00:09:41,081 --> 00:09:42,950 things. And this administration has been 195 00:09:43,016 --> 00:09:46,587 doing that left and right. So people who followed 196 00:09:46,653 --> 00:09:48,555 every rule, they're supposed to fill out the 197 00:09:48,622 --> 00:09:50,924 right application, waited when they should, paid the 198 00:09:50,991 --> 00:09:54,895 right fee, are now being told that we are making you 199 00:09:54,962 --> 00:09:57,464 illegal. If that's a term that can be used that the 200 00:09:57,531 --> 00:10:00,100 administration uses. But they have done everything 201 00:10:00,167 --> 00:10:02,503 right, especially now we're talking about people from 202 00:10:02,569 --> 00:10:06,106 really problematic places like Ukraine and Venezuela 203 00:10:06,173 --> 00:10:09,643 and places with civil wars and natural disasters where 204 00:10:09,710 --> 00:10:12,212 people have gotten the application been approved 205 00:10:12,279 --> 00:10:15,015 and are here in a legal path. The government just 206 00:10:15,082 --> 00:10:17,651 pulls the rug out from under and says, you're no 207 00:10:17,718 --> 00:10:20,053 longer illegal. And the worst that I can think of 208 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,224 from our own perspective are the 800 families, 209 00:10:24,291 --> 00:10:27,928 people from Afghanistan who are airlifted out of Kabul, 210 00:10:27,995 --> 00:10:30,797 who helped us, and our government, who are now 211 00:10:30,864 --> 00:10:33,800 being told that the programs that they have 212 00:10:33,867 --> 00:10:36,703 temporary protected status or humanitarian parole are 213 00:10:36,770 --> 00:10:39,473 no longer valid. And so we're going to pick you up 214 00:10:39,540 --> 00:10:41,775 if you are still in that status. 215 00:10:41,842 --> 00:10:46,513 >> And there's a brand new rule out this week about 216 00:10:46,580 --> 00:10:48,749 refugees. >> This is something it has 217 00:10:48,815 --> 00:10:52,186 been going on for almost 75 years in the United States, 218 00:10:52,252 --> 00:10:55,389 where we take people who have been languishing in 219 00:10:55,455 --> 00:10:58,659 refugee camps around the world for 10 or 15 years 220 00:10:58,725 --> 00:11:01,228 and give them a new life in the United States, that's 221 00:11:01,295 --> 00:11:03,964 called refugee status. But all these people are ones 222 00:11:04,031 --> 00:11:07,201 who have participated in this program, have been 223 00:11:07,267 --> 00:11:09,736 granted status by the State Department or by the 224 00:11:09,803 --> 00:11:11,805 Immigration Service, and they're allowed to stay in 225 00:11:11,872 --> 00:11:14,508 the United States indefinitely because they 226 00:11:14,575 --> 00:11:16,777 can't be sent back. They shouldn't be sent back. The 227 00:11:16,844 --> 00:11:19,246 law says they shouldn't be sent back. And yet, just 228 00:11:19,313 --> 00:11:22,349 this week, the government turned a rule that says, 229 00:11:22,416 --> 00:11:25,686 you may apply for a green card within a year from 230 00:11:25,752 --> 00:11:29,289 your refugee asylum status so you can have permanent 231 00:11:29,356 --> 00:11:32,059 resident status. Stay, work wherever you want. Travel 232 00:11:32,125 --> 00:11:34,294 in and out of the United States. They've now turned 233 00:11:34,361 --> 00:11:37,130 that rule around to say, if you didn't apply for a 234 00:11:37,197 --> 00:11:40,467 green card within a year, we reserve the right to 235 00:11:40,534 --> 00:11:43,637 detain you, to investigate you, and potentially deport 236 00:11:43,704 --> 00:11:48,275 you for no stated reason whatsoever. Except it seems 237 00:11:48,342 --> 00:11:51,144 like to have more numbers to be able to say to the 238 00:11:51,211 --> 00:11:53,347 American people, we've deported a lot of people. 239 00:11:53,413 --> 00:11:56,783 >> What kind of scramble is this for people in your 240 00:11:56,850 --> 00:11:59,586 line of work? >> Yeah, I can't tell you. 241 00:11:59,653 --> 00:12:02,422 Times are difficult enough. Like where I work at the 242 00:12:02,489 --> 00:12:05,058 Community Immigration Law Center. There are lawyers 243 00:12:05,125 --> 00:12:09,329 who are fighting every day, and it's a really tough job. 244 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:11,999 Just normally between the volume and the stories and 245 00:12:12,065 --> 00:12:16,470 the humanitarian side, kids and families. But now the 246 00:12:16,537 --> 00:12:19,173 government is just changing everything they do, and it 247 00:12:19,239 --> 00:12:22,876 is a very difficult situation to be try and 248 00:12:22,943 --> 00:12:24,811 represent somebody. If you don't have a lawyer right 249 00:12:24,878 --> 00:12:27,714 now, I can tell you you have 100% chance of being 250 00:12:27,781 --> 00:12:30,717 deported because the rules have changed so much. The 251 00:12:30,784 --> 00:12:33,587 the ground on which we are standing in immigration 252 00:12:33,654 --> 00:12:36,156 court is changing every day or every week. 253 00:12:36,223 --> 00:12:39,026 >> If you do have a lawyer, what are your odds? 254 00:12:39,092 --> 00:12:41,862 >> I mean, I can tell you, you know, a case that 255 00:12:41,929 --> 00:12:44,765 happened just in the past few weeks with our 256 00:12:44,831 --> 00:12:47,835 organization is somebody was applying for asylum 257 00:12:47,901 --> 00:12:50,504 from Latin America because they had a very bona fide 258 00:12:50,571 --> 00:12:53,040 claim of persecution that would happen to them if 259 00:12:53,106 --> 00:12:56,343 they got sent back to their home country and 260 00:12:56,410 --> 00:12:58,545 fortunately came to us at the last minute and said, 261 00:12:58,612 --> 00:13:01,381 Will you please come with us? And we didn't have time 262 00:13:01,448 --> 00:13:03,584 to prepare. But when we went there, we found out 263 00:13:03,650 --> 00:13:06,787 about these alternative country agreements that the 264 00:13:06,854 --> 00:13:10,824 government is using to say, well, we can't send you 265 00:13:10,891 --> 00:13:12,893 back to your home country because of persecution, but 266 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,562 we're going to send you to some third country to which 267 00:13:15,629 --> 00:13:17,965 you've never been before, and without a lawyer to 268 00:13:18,031 --> 00:13:21,068 know that that's going to happen and to prepare a 269 00:13:21,134 --> 00:13:23,937 case about what would happen to that person if 270 00:13:24,004 --> 00:13:26,507 they got sent, for example, in Latin America, the 271 00:13:26,573 --> 00:13:28,675 government has arranged this agreement to send 272 00:13:28,742 --> 00:13:31,612 almost everybody to Honduras. If you're from 273 00:13:31,678 --> 00:13:34,548 Africa, everybody is sent to Uganda. And without a 274 00:13:34,615 --> 00:13:37,084 lawyer, there's almost no way for you to prepare that. 275 00:13:37,150 --> 00:13:39,920 And even with the lawyer, it is extremely difficult. 276 00:13:39,987 --> 00:13:42,990 >> Where does this end up? >> Both for the families 277 00:13:43,056 --> 00:13:46,426 but also for our community. The fact that you can be 278 00:13:46,493 --> 00:13:49,563 picked up, sent to another country and in the middle, 279 00:13:49,630 --> 00:13:53,600 put in prison for a potential civil violation 280 00:13:53,667 --> 00:13:57,337 without any due process, is something that I and people 281 00:13:57,404 --> 00:14:00,774 in our community in Wisconsin can't abide. 282 00:14:00,841 --> 00:14:03,810 Everybody should have a fair shot. At least I and 283 00:14:03,877 --> 00:14:06,146 the lawyers who work at the Community Immigration Law 284 00:14:06,213 --> 00:14:08,615 Center are trying just to make sure today's people 285 00:14:08,682 --> 00:14:11,952 are getting some due process. So all we can do 286 00:14:12,019 --> 00:14:14,788 is see what's in front of us today and do the best we 287 00:14:14,855 --> 00:14:16,823 can. >> All right. We leave it 288 00:14:16,890 --> 00:14:18,625 there. Grant Sovern, thanks very much. 289 00:14:18,692 --> 00:14:21,295 >> Thank you. >> What do the leading 290 00:14:21,361 --> 00:14:24,431 candidates running for governor think about data 291 00:14:24,498 --> 00:14:26,967 centers? Here and now? Senior political reporter 292 00:14:27,034 --> 00:14:29,736 Zac Schultz asked them as part of our continuing 293 00:14:29,803 --> 00:14:32,105 series on the biggest issues in the race for 294 00:14:32,172 --> 00:14:35,642 governor. >> Wisconsin's utility 295 00:14:35,709 --> 00:14:38,045 companies are asking the Public Service Commission 296 00:14:38,111 --> 00:14:41,048 to approve the largest rate hikes in history. And 297 00:14:41,114 --> 00:14:43,483 that's before we see any impact from the data 298 00:14:43,550 --> 00:14:46,486 centers being proposed around the state. So we 299 00:14:46,553 --> 00:14:49,156 asked the candidates what role the state should play 300 00:14:49,223 --> 00:14:52,092 in approving or facilitating these data 301 00:14:52,159 --> 00:14:54,828 centers. >> Exciting new technology. 302 00:14:54,895 --> 00:14:57,631 I think we need to make sure, on the energy side of 303 00:14:57,698 --> 00:15:01,602 it, that we do not harm existing ratepayers. So 304 00:15:01,668 --> 00:15:04,671 residential ratepayers and manufacturers, it would be 305 00:15:04,738 --> 00:15:08,108 unfair to existing manufacturers for them to 306 00:15:08,175 --> 00:15:12,379 pay much higher electricity rates just because a new 307 00:15:12,446 --> 00:15:14,681 industry came in. So we're going to probably have to 308 00:15:14,748 --> 00:15:18,852 find a new template. If AI and the data center 309 00:15:18,919 --> 00:15:20,487 specifically come into Wisconsin, we're probably 310 00:15:20,554 --> 00:15:22,723 going to have to find a new template of how we deal 311 00:15:22,789 --> 00:15:26,026 with energy and the data centers. 312 00:15:26,093 --> 00:15:29,663 >> There shouldn't be any corporations that are 313 00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:33,634 coming in and jacking up prices for ratepayers. And 314 00:15:33,700 --> 00:15:37,804 I'm not interested in the state providing subsidies 315 00:15:37,871 --> 00:15:40,741 and handouts for large corporations that are 316 00:15:40,807 --> 00:15:45,112 coming in who are really going to impact our clean 317 00:15:45,179 --> 00:15:49,616 lakes, our air. And so the subsidies that folks might 318 00:15:49,683 --> 00:15:53,153 be proposing and support are really concerning to me. 319 00:15:53,220 --> 00:15:57,891 And I think right now we are seeing democracy at its 320 00:15:58,492 --> 00:16:03,163 core strength with people who are speaking out and 321 00:16:04,364 --> 00:16:07,000 defending their communities and talking about why they 322 00:16:07,067 --> 00:16:10,204 do or do not support data centers. 323 00:16:10,771 --> 00:16:13,774 to our party, if they want to be here, let's invite 324 00:16:13,841 --> 00:16:16,610 them. But let's be at the table making sure that they 325 00:16:16,677 --> 00:16:18,812 are good partners for the state and making sure that 326 00:16:18,879 --> 00:16:22,182 we are negotiating the best deals that we can for the 327 00:16:22,249 --> 00:16:24,785 state. I'm somebody who's been at that table. I've 328 00:16:24,852 --> 00:16:26,954 had those conversations. I've worked with the big 329 00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:28,989 data centers and the big providers. I've worked with 330 00:16:29,056 --> 00:16:32,192 many big companies in negotiating for Wisconsin, 331 00:16:32,259 --> 00:16:34,962 and I have that experience that I would bring to the 332 00:16:35,028 --> 00:16:37,331 table, and I would be very hands on in making sure 333 00:16:37,397 --> 00:16:40,434 that we're doing everything we can to protect Wisconsin 334 00:16:40,501 --> 00:16:43,070 ratepayers, Wisconsin's environment, but also take 335 00:16:43,136 --> 00:16:45,038 advantage of the opportunity that's offered 336 00:16:45,105 --> 00:16:48,108 by the investment we're seeing in technology. 337 00:16:48,175 --> 00:16:51,345 >> This is a huge issue, and we need a statewide 338 00:16:51,411 --> 00:16:53,213 strategy to deal with data centers because they're 339 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,382 coming into local communities and kind of 340 00:16:55,449 --> 00:16:58,018 steamrolling them. And I think that people deserve 341 00:16:58,085 --> 00:17:01,288 to have a voice in what happens in their 342 00:17:01,355 --> 00:17:03,891 need to really know what the impact is going to be 343 00:17:03,957 --> 00:17:06,760 on our environment, on the water and land usage, as 344 00:17:06,827 --> 00:17:09,329 well as the impact on ratepayers for these data 345 00:17:09,396 --> 00:17:13,233 centers. I've sponsored legislation along with my 346 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:17,304 colleague, Senator Jodi Habush Sinykin, to ensure 347 00:17:17,371 --> 00:17:19,373 transparency as these data centers are coming in and 348 00:17:19,439 --> 00:17:21,708 trying to negotiate. >> So data centers, it's 349 00:17:21,775 --> 00:17:25,345 important for us if they are going to be built here, 350 00:17:25,412 --> 00:17:28,382 there has to be a community benefits agreement. If they 351 00:17:28,448 --> 00:17:31,685 are to come. That means ensuring that there is 352 00:17:31,752 --> 00:17:35,289 local hiring. That means ensuring that utility rates 353 00:17:35,355 --> 00:17:38,959 are not going up for customers. It also means 354 00:17:39,026 --> 00:17:42,863 ensuring that community input is prioritized. There 355 00:17:42,930 --> 00:17:45,365 shouldn't be data center construction if there's 356 00:17:45,432 --> 00:17:47,734 mass opposition from the communities that they are 357 00:17:47,801 --> 00:17:51,171 going to go in. And this also means addressing 358 00:17:51,238 --> 00:17:53,774 concerns like water quality. >> We all have a little 359 00:17:53,841 --> 00:17:56,410 anxiety about that, and you see that at the local level 360 00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:58,545 with these things. But I think the responsibility 361 00:17:58,612 --> 00:18:00,981 that we have fundamentally is to just ensure that 362 00:18:01,048 --> 00:18:03,250 these conversations, some that are happening at the 363 00:18:03,317 --> 00:18:06,019 state level, a lot that are happening at the local 364 00:18:06,086 --> 00:18:08,455 level, that they are the main thing that we have 365 00:18:08,522 --> 00:18:10,991 with them is that there is transparency around them 366 00:18:11,058 --> 00:18:13,527 and that the users of this are accountable and that, 367 00:18:13,594 --> 00:18:16,597 you know, the benefits accrue to all of us and 368 00:18:16,663 --> 00:18:19,366 that the responsibility for the costs aren't borne by 369 00:18:19,433 --> 00:18:22,636 taxpayers. In the state of Wisconsin. 370 00:18:22,703 --> 00:18:26,073 be a conversation with the community, and we want to 371 00:18:26,139 --> 00:18:28,642 make sure that those data centers are in a community 372 00:18:28,709 --> 00:18:31,411 that wants them. But what we have to do on the front 373 00:18:31,478 --> 00:18:35,082 end is to make sure, contractually, that the 374 00:18:35,148 --> 00:18:38,552 energy uses are not going to be borne on the back of 375 00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:40,821 taxpayers, that they are going to be investing, 376 00:18:40,888 --> 00:18:43,757 particularly in renewable energy, and that they are 377 00:18:43,824 --> 00:18:46,226 going to be bearing those costs for those energies, 378 00:18:46,293 --> 00:18:48,529 because we certainly don't want it to be on the backs 379 00:18:48,595 --> 00:18:51,832 of taxpayers. for us to utilize new 380 00:18:52,733 --> 00:18:56,003 technology, leverage the legacy industries that we 381 00:18:56,069 --> 00:18:58,805 have here locally. When you think about manufacturing 382 00:18:58,872 --> 00:19:02,075 and agriculture and and water technology and things 383 00:19:02,142 --> 00:19:05,646 of that nature, to really make it a community benefit, 384 00:19:05,712 --> 00:19:08,482 you know, bringing in a tech tech centers and data 385 00:19:08,549 --> 00:19:11,585 centers and AI can be good, but we have to make sure 386 00:19:11,652 --> 00:19:13,620 that we have those protections in place, while 387 00:19:13,687 --> 00:19:15,556 also making sure that there's community benefits 388 00:19:15,622 --> 00:19:18,759 that are going to be tied to this level of 389 00:19:18,825 --> 00:19:21,828 development. How do we utilize this for our 390 00:19:21,895 --> 00:19:24,531 schools? How do we utilize this to expand broadband? 391 00:19:24,598 --> 00:19:27,901 How do we utilize this to to to expand the access 392 00:19:27,968 --> 00:19:30,270 that our entrepreneurs have in every corner of the 393 00:19:30,337 --> 00:19:32,773 state of Wisconsin? >> Reporting from Madison. 394 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:35,843 I'm Zac Schultz for "Here& Now". 395 00:19:36,476 --> 00:19:39,112 >> In environmental news, a court ruling maintains that 396 00:19:39,179 --> 00:19:42,816 a permit was properly granted by the Wisconsin 397 00:19:42,883 --> 00:19:45,519 Department of Natural Resources, allowing the 398 00:19:45,586 --> 00:19:49,223 Canadian oil company Enbridge Energy to reroute 399 00:19:49,289 --> 00:19:52,526 an oil pipeline around the Bad River reservation in 400 00:19:52,593 --> 00:19:55,362 northern Wisconsin. The tribe challenged the permit, 401 00:19:55,429 --> 00:19:58,098 saying the line poses an environmental threat to 402 00:19:58,165 --> 00:20:02,202 local waterways if a spill were to occur. The 403 00:20:02,269 --> 00:20:05,072 administrative law judge deciding the case wrote, 404 00:20:05,138 --> 00:20:08,275 quote. While the band expresses concern regarding 405 00:20:08,342 --> 00:20:10,878 potential impacts, they have failed to provide 406 00:20:10,944 --> 00:20:13,647 evidence demonstrating that the authorized activities 407 00:20:13,714 --> 00:20:17,784 will in fact violate state water quality standards. 408 00:20:17,851 --> 00:20:20,954 The fears that they express are fears they lack, 409 00:20:21,021 --> 00:20:23,790 evidence showing that these changes will occur and 410 00:20:23,857 --> 00:20:26,894 impact water quality. The band has filed a challenge 411 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:30,230 to the ruling. In a statement, an attorney from 412 00:20:30,297 --> 00:20:33,000 Earthjustice representing the tribe said, quote, 413 00:20:33,066 --> 00:20:35,402 Enbridge's project threatens permanent damage 414 00:20:35,469 --> 00:20:38,906 to the bands treaty protected water plants and 415 00:20:38,972 --> 00:20:42,176 medicines, all for the enrichment of a foreign oil 416 00:20:42,242 --> 00:20:45,279 pipeline company. The band will continue to fight to 417 00:20:45,345 --> 00:20:50,384 protect their interests and halt construction. In 418 00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:52,986 recent days, divers announced the discovery of 419 00:20:53,053 --> 00:20:57,624 a 150 year old shipwreck in Lake Michigan. The Lac La 420 00:20:57,691 --> 00:21:01,828 Belle steamer ship sank in 1872, in Madison. 421 00:21:03,430 --> 00:21:06,500 Historical underwater discoveries date much, much 422 00:21:06,567 --> 00:21:10,704 older. Of the 16 ancient canoes found in Lake 423 00:21:11,438 --> 00:21:16,210 Mendota, the oldest is 1200 years old, dating back to 424 00:21:16,276 --> 00:21:19,546 indigenous water travel "Here& Now", and ICT 425 00:21:19,613 --> 00:21:23,417 reporter Erica Ayisi tracks their discovery and 426 00:21:23,483 --> 00:21:27,287 preservation. >> Here you can see how the 427 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,195 contour lines are a little bit flatter. We made it to 428 00:21:35,262 --> 00:21:38,031 this turnaround and that's where the canoe was. Lots 429 00:21:38,098 --> 00:21:41,301 of cool stuff you can find in the lake. Just got to go 430 00:21:41,368 --> 00:21:44,338 look. >> Tamara Thomsen maritime 431 00:21:44,404 --> 00:21:46,473 archeologist for the Wisconsin Historical 432 00:21:46,540 --> 00:21:49,142 Society, went on a recreational dive to the 433 00:21:49,209 --> 00:21:53,013 bottom of Lake Mendota in 2021 to collect fishermen 434 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,316 debris and told a colleague she saw a long slope 435 00:21:56,383 --> 00:21:59,286 exposed through 24ft of water. 436 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,556 >> You know, I really think that was a dugout canoe. I 437 00:22:02,623 --> 00:22:04,858 don't think that that was that was just a random 438 00:22:04,925 --> 00:22:07,761 piece of wood on the bottom. But we should get another 439 00:22:07,828 --> 00:22:10,464 tank and we should go out. And I think I can find it 440 00:22:10,531 --> 00:22:13,800 again. >> But only the top portion 441 00:22:13,867 --> 00:22:15,936 was exposed. So the bottom was still covered with silt 442 00:22:16,003 --> 00:22:18,472 and it was just pristine. And it was so nice that I 443 00:22:18,539 --> 00:22:21,441 thought, well, it can't be old. 444 00:22:21,808 --> 00:22:24,044 archeologists pulled the canoe from the lake and 445 00:22:24,111 --> 00:22:27,281 through radiocarbon data analysis, found it to be 446 00:22:27,347 --> 00:22:32,019 1200 years old or Jung two Moore very, very ancient 447 00:22:33,854 --> 00:22:36,657 canoes were found a year later. 448 00:22:36,723 --> 00:22:39,593 >> One ended up being 3000 years old, which is 449 00:22:39,660 --> 00:22:41,962 recovered in in the tank. And then we found another 450 00:22:42,029 --> 00:22:45,365 one next to it, a little bit shorter, 2000 years old. 451 00:22:45,432 --> 00:22:48,202 >> Thompson says the canoes are at least 15ft long and 452 00:22:48,268 --> 00:22:51,271 made of cottonwood, elm and oak. 453 00:22:51,872 --> 00:22:56,710 >> Red oak is very porous, and so they they would have 454 00:22:56,777 --> 00:23:00,080 had to understand how to seal that cellular 455 00:23:00,147 --> 00:23:02,449 structure in the canoe when they were building it, in 456 00:23:02,516 --> 00:23:04,251 order to make the vessel watertight. 457 00:23:04,318 --> 00:23:08,789 >> A total of 16 canoes were found in Lake Mendota 458 00:23:11,592 --> 00:23:16,230 between 2022 and 2025. The oldest is 5200 years old. 459 00:23:16,296 --> 00:23:19,166 >> To put yourself in that place and think what were 460 00:23:19,233 --> 00:23:21,368 what were these people like? What were they doing in 461 00:23:21,435 --> 00:23:23,937 these canoes? And then why are all these canoes in 462 00:23:24,004 --> 00:23:26,607 this one spot? >> So at what point in this 463 00:23:26,673 --> 00:23:29,309 did you start reaching out to Wisconsin's native 464 00:23:29,376 --> 00:23:31,044 nations? >> Before any of the canoes 465 00:23:31,111 --> 00:23:34,081 were recovered? There was consultation with with the 466 00:23:34,147 --> 00:23:36,850 native nations of Wisconsin. >> Lawrence Plucinski, 467 00:23:36,917 --> 00:23:39,253 Tribal historic preservation officer for 468 00:23:39,319 --> 00:23:42,089 the bad River Band of Lake Superior Chippewa, helped 469 00:23:42,155 --> 00:23:44,658 with the preservation process. When the second 470 00:23:44,725 --> 00:23:48,161 canoe was pulled from the lake, he says his ancestors 471 00:23:48,228 --> 00:23:51,798 used inland waterways as transportation between one 472 00:23:51,865 --> 00:23:55,068 side of the lake to the other to harvest, hunt, and 473 00:23:55,135 --> 00:23:57,237 fish. >> You couldn't carry much 474 00:23:57,304 --> 00:24:00,674 because they weren't like the total dugout type 475 00:24:00,741 --> 00:24:03,010 canoes, you know, some were more leveler. 476 00:24:03,076 --> 00:24:06,246 >> So what does that mean? The fact that they didn't 477 00:24:06,313 --> 00:24:08,882 carry and take them with them, they were left there. 478 00:24:08,949 --> 00:24:11,318 >> The canoes were not owned by each individual or 479 00:24:11,385 --> 00:24:13,353 whatever. It was like a community. 480 00:24:13,420 --> 00:24:16,590 >> There are no plans to move the remaining 14 481 00:24:16,657 --> 00:24:19,593 canoes that are sitting here at the bottom of Lake 482 00:24:19,660 --> 00:24:22,362 Mendota. In a decision made collaboratively between 483 00:24:22,429 --> 00:24:25,299 Thompson and Wisconsin's native nations with the 484 00:24:25,365 --> 00:24:28,101 goal of responsible stewardship. 485 00:24:28,168 --> 00:24:30,537 >> We're not in the business of bringing up the 486 00:24:30,604 --> 00:24:33,207 canoes, especially the shape that they were in. 487 00:24:33,273 --> 00:24:35,409 They were they were broke apart in your hand if you 488 00:24:35,475 --> 00:24:37,678 brought them up. >> The two extracted canoes 489 00:24:37,744 --> 00:24:40,447 are sitting in a makeshift tank filled with 490 00:24:40,514 --> 00:24:43,550 polyethylene glycol at the State Preservation Facility 491 00:24:43,617 --> 00:24:47,254 in Madison to stabilize the fragile but heavy wood and 492 00:24:47,321 --> 00:24:50,023 then freeze dry them. >> Any water that's left in 493 00:24:50,090 --> 00:24:52,259 the cellular structure will be taken off. 494 00:24:52,326 --> 00:24:54,761 >> One canoe will be stored at the preservation 495 00:24:54,828 --> 00:24:57,664 facility, and the other will be on display at the 496 00:24:57,731 --> 00:25:00,767 upcoming Wisconsin History Center, where Plucinski 497 00:25:00,834 --> 00:25:03,804 says their indigenous history can be preserved. 498 00:25:03,871 --> 00:25:06,807 >> Let our knowledge be told, you know, let our our 499 00:25:06,874 --> 00:25:10,277 history be told of how we traveled. 500 00:25:10,344 --> 00:25:14,181 >> In Madison. I'm Eric Ayisi for "Here& Now" and 501 00:25:14,248 --> 00:25:17,150 ICT. >> In other news, Reverend 502 00:25:17,784 --> 00:25:22,589 Jesse Jackson, the civil rights icon with strong 503 00:25:22,656 --> 00:25:26,927 Wisconsin connections, died this week. Jackson visited 504 00:25:26,994 --> 00:25:30,364 Milwaukee and environs many times, advocating for civil 505 00:25:30,430 --> 00:25:34,701 rights and social and economic justice. In the 506 00:25:34,768 --> 00:25:38,405 1988 presidential primary election in Wisconsin, 507 00:25:38,472 --> 00:25:41,275 Jackson came in second in what the Milwaukee Common 508 00:25:41,341 --> 00:25:44,545 Council this week described as a barrier breaking run 509 00:25:44,611 --> 00:25:48,882 for the presidency, calling him a generational leader. 510 00:25:48,949 --> 00:25:52,386 At the time, Jackson told The New York Times he was 511 00:25:52,452 --> 00:25:57,024 very proud. He got so many white votes in Wisconsin. 512 00:25:57,090 --> 00:25:59,626 Jackson marched in Milwaukee with Father James 513 00:25:59,693 --> 00:26:03,430 Groppi in the 1960s and was in Wisconsin most recently 514 00:26:03,497 --> 00:26:08,135 in 2020, for encouraging voter registration. 515 00:26:08,202 --> 00:26:12,472 Reverend Jesse Jackson died at the age of 84. 516 00:26:12,539 --> 00:26:14,875 >> In drugs and guns. >> For more on this and 517 00:26:14,942 --> 00:26:17,978 other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our 518 00:26:18,045 --> 00:26:21,849 website at PBS Wisconsin and then click on the news 519 00:26:21,915 --> 00:26:24,818 tab. That's our program for tonight, I'm Frederica 520 00:26:24,885 --> 00:26:27,788 Freyberg. Have a good weekend. 521 00:26:36,263 --> 00:26:38,832 . >> Funding for "Here& Now" 522 00:26:45,506 --> 00:26:47,975 is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and 523 00:26:48,041 --> 00:26:50,511 Friends of PBS Wisconsin.