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>> The following program is
a PBS Wisconsin original

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production.
>> In a boon to one of the

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Republicans running for
governor, an endorsement

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from President Donald Trump
leads candidate Josh

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Schoemann to bow out of the
race and leaves Tom Tiffany,

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the presumptive primary
winner.

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I'm Frederica Freyberg
tonight on "Here& Now",

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continued response to the
events unfolding in

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Minneapolis. What happens
when freedom of assembly

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and the right to bear arms
collide? And although not a

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surge, western Wisconsin is
also seeing ICE filter into

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their communities. And we
continue our coverage of

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candidates for governor.
It's "Here& Now" for

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January 30th.
>> Funding for "Here& Now"

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is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

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Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
>> Known as the white House.

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Border czar Tom Homan came
to Minnesota late this week

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to say the immigration
enforcement mission is

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going to improve, and that
he is working on a drawdown

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plan. Meanwhile, U.S.
Senate Democrats demand

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tighter rules for federal
officers before voting to

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extend funding to Homeland
security, even as that

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funding is part of a larger
spending bill ahead of the

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vote and compromise.
Wisconsin U.S. senators

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staked their positions on
the matter. Speaking with

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Wisconsin Public Radio,
Senator Tammy Baldwin said,

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quote, Americans agreed
with Trump that we should

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get hardened criminals,
dangerous criminals who are

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here undocumented, under
arrest and out of the

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country. But we are seeing
Ice and other federal

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agents behave in a much
broader way. They're just

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combing the streets, going
door to door outside our

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schools. It is out of
control. Senator Johnson

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told This week this is just
a continuation of the

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defund police movement.
Democrats opened up the

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borders, allowed millions
of people to flood into

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this country, including
criminals, human sex drug

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traffickers, resulting in
these rapes and murders.

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And now the very agency
tasked with cleaning up

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that enormous Democrat
created mess they want to

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defund, he said when
considering Ice enforcement

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in places like Minneapolis.
What is the intersection

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between the First Amendment,
freedom of speech and

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assembly and the Second
Amendment? The right to

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bear arms? Because Alex
Pretti was in the crowd

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protesting the enforcement
surge and carrying a

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legally permitted gun when
U.S. Border Patrol agents

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shot him dead. We turn to
UW-Madison political

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science professor and legal
scholar Howard Schweber,

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and thanks very much for
being here.

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>> Thanks for having me.
>> So in your expertise are

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crowds like we've seen
protesting Ice legally

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under the First Amendment?
>> There's no straight

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answer to that question.
That is protected activity,

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but it can be subject to
regulation. And so for

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example, there could be
permitting requirements.

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The crowd could be blocking
traffic or any number of

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specific fact questions
could come into play.

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There's no question the
absolute core of the First

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Amendment is protecting the
right of crowds to gather

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in protest. As always, the
devil is in the details.

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>> What about justifying
shooting to kill if someone

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was legally possessing a
gun in the midst of a

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protest? Clearly there's a
difference between having a

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weapon and brandishing it.
>> Sure. So here's where we

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get, I think, most notably
the Kash Patel director of

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the FBI Kash Patel
statement. You don't have a

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right to bring a gun to a
protest. Kash Patel

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statement would get a
failing grade in a freshman

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class in an undergraduate
institution. He is not just

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wrong. He is wildly and
almost bizarrely wrong. For

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someone who occupies a
position in law, a senior

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position in law enforcement
in the United States, we

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should mention the
background politics here.

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Generally speaking,
liberals and progressives

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don't love the fact that in
recent years, the Supreme

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Court has expanded Second
Amendment rights. Generally

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speaking, you know,
stereotyping conservatives

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have approved of that
expansion. But there's no

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question that the Supreme
Court has made it very,

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very clear that you have a
right to carry a weapon in

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public if you are otherwise
lawfully permitted to do so.

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And the fact that you're at
a protest is utterly

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irrelevant. The best
formulation I've heard I

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didn't make this up, I wish
that I had is we are

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allowed to exercise two
fundamental rights at the

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same time. You can engage
in First Amendment protest

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and exercise your Second
Amendment rights at the

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first time, and one does
not somehow erase the other.

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>> And yet, in the heat of
a moment like the like the

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chaos that we saw in these
protests, how difficult is

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it for police agents,
federal agents, to know

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about that gun and that
protester?

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difficult. The video
evidence is very, very

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strong that in this case,
the answer is really easy

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to break it down. The
protesters were not

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approaching the officers.
protesters. They crossed

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space to get to them. In
the absence of any

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interference or challenge,
the officers initiated

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pepper spraying of the
protesters, and Pretti

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moved to interpose himself
between an officer and a

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woman being pepper sprayed.
He was then grabbed and

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dragged to the ground, at
which point officers

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discovered his holstered
weapon, removed it from him

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and an officer walked away
holding the weapon. All of

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this before shots were
fired. So you could have a

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case where the facts are
really complicated, and you

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could have a case where the
police judgment is a close

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call and has to be debated.
This is not one of them.

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The evidence seems
absolutely overwhelming

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that this was in any other
context. This would be a

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murder.
case be about Alex Pretti

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without all of that cell
phone video?

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>> One of the big lessons
of these events, and this

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is not the first time we
saw this in the Black Lives

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Matters protests, we've
seen it before is how the

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ubiquity of video evidence
obtained by private

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citizens using cell phones
is changing the

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conversation. We would not
know what had happened to

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Alex Pretti without that
evidence, we would simply

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have no idea. We would have
witnesses claiming

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something. We'd have the
government claiming they

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were lying. We're going to
be dealing with this for a

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long time. We're going to
start having to deal with

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deepfakes and manufactured
videos in addition to real

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ones. There's all sorts of
questions and all sorts of

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both good and bad possible
outcomes that could come

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from this. Every person, a
journalist phenomenon that

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we're seeing at the moment,
though it is by far the

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most powerful, if not the
only effective mechanism

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that we have for holding
government agents

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accountable.
>> All of that description

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of what happened, how
dangerous is it for

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protesters to be on the
streets exercising their

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right to protest?
>> So this morning I had a

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conversation with someone
who was thinking of

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participating in protest in
Madison today and is not

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going to do so because
they're afraid that person

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may be overreacting or not.
But the the the

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intimidation and spreading
of terror among protesters

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and potential protesters is
not only very real, it

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certainly appears to be
intentional. And that's the

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from a constitutional
perspective, the biggest

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point of what's going on
here is called the chilling

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effect. The police are
acting in a way that are

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causing people to
self-censor, to refrain

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from engaging in speech
they're entitled to engage

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in because they're afraid
of what might happen. And

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it's very small comfort to
say, you know, a year or

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three down the line, a
court might say the police

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officer was wrong in
killing you. That's not

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really something that
relieves us of that sense

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of fear. And from my
perspective or in my view,

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absolutely no question that
the operation in Minnesota

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has crossed that line of
chilling effect. And it's

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far in the rearview mirror,
and these operations are

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wildly unconstitutional.
>> And now, today, federal

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agents have arrested two
journalists who were

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covering protests inside a
church in Saint Paul.

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That's also a chilling
effect.

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>> It can be this one is a
little more complicated,

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only because there are
facts that I don't know. I

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think we, the public, don't
know. The facts that we do

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know are deeply disturbing.
But I think it's clear that

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the Trump administration
doesn't care about getting

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convictions. What it cares
about is bringing these

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cases in order to harass
journalists and political

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opponents, to make them
reluctant to exercise in,

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well, in this case,
journalism. Again, I

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believe that this is this
is now purely subjective.

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But from looking at the
facts that we know thus far,

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it appears to me that this
is an attempt to chill

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journalists from doing
their job, rather than any

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serious attempt or serious
expectation that any

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criminal charges here will
stick.

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>> We'll leave it there.
Howard Schweber, thank you

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very much.
>> Minneapolis is just over

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the river from western
Wisconsin. Communities like

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Hudson, where immigration
agents are also venturing

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"Here& Now". Reporter Erica
Ayisi this week took a look

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at what's happening in
Saint Croix County.

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>> Someone personally
messaged me and they said,

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Kim ICE is downtown on Main
Street taking somebody. Do

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you know, can you get a
hold of anyone?

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>> Kimberly Solberg is a
community advocate and one

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of the moderators of the
Baldwin Facebook Community

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page. She says Immigration
and Customs Enforcement, or

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Ice, has been in Baldwin
since early January.

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Solberg says she sprang
into action.

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>> I started reaching out
to what context? I had to

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try to find out if people
could get a hold of the

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farm and let workers know,
just to be alerted that Ice

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is in the area, and to make
sure that their families

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are protected.
>> About 4300 people live

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in Baldwin, where farming
is prevalent in this part

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of western Wisconsin.
>> We have a very thriving,

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rich and diverse community
of Hispanic and Guatemalan

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people up here working at
the farms and being part of

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our community.
>> Solberg says the

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immigrant community is
working in Baldwin legally.

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>> To my knowledge, most of
these families are here on

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work visas. I know the
people that sponsor them.

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>> Baldwin is about 50
miles from the intense ice

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activity in Minneapolis,
but Solberg says Ice is

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active in the area. Have
you seen ice activity here

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in Baldwin yourself?
>> I've seen clusters of

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Ice vehicles, maybe almost
a dozen vehicles or more

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clustered together, getting
ready to do sweeps at

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apartment complexes.
>> Were their faces covered?

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>> As far as I've seen,
they've all, you know, they

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haven't had their masks on.
And that might just be a

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different dynamic here in
Baldwin, where they feel a

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little more comfortable
here than they do in

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Minneapolis.
>> Solberg says she's seen

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local Baldwin police
present in Ice raids.

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>> I have seen personally
local law enforcement

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assisting Ice and Ice
actions, not the actions

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taking themselves, but they
were local law enforcement

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were present.
>> She was asked to start a

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group and connected with
other organizations to

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share resources for Baldwin
families who are impacted

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by Ice and afraid to leave
their homes.

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>> Most of the people I
know who give rides, who

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donate resources are
terrified that their name

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gets out there. As somebody
who is helping.

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>> The I-94 bridge behind
me connects Hudson,

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Wisconsin, to the
Minneapolis, Minnesota area.

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And according to Solberg,
it's invoking fear amongst

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local residents. She says
they've seen Ice agents in

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Hudson, Baldwin and
Woodville.

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>> For sure, those actions
are going on in neighboring

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communities.
>> In Hudson, Kiva Sherr

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says Ice detained an
employee during his first

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day on the job at a grocery
store.

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>> We have an Amazon drop
off and pick up area. And

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so ICE went to that
particular part of the

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store and detained an
employee there.

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>> Schauer says some
employees feel they're

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being profiled. She and
other staff want to help

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support them if Ice returns,
but she says fear takes

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precedence.
>> Even though I want to be

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a good person and help,
there's that fear of what

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are they going to do? Are
they going to use tear gas?

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>> The darkest time, I'm
gonna let it shine.

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>> Back in Baldwin, Solberg
says the community is

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00:12:39,927 --> 00:12:42,963
holding a vigil for their
Minneapolis neighbors, René

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00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:47,334
Good and Alex Pretti, who
were killed by Ice.

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00:12:47,401 --> 00:12:51,905
>> It's about, you know,
having a peaceful presence.

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>> To help each other heal.
>> And being there for each

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00:12:54,608 --> 00:12:57,044
other. It shouldn't be
about politics.

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>> In Saint Croix County.
I'm Erica Ayisi for "Here&

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00:13:00,647 --> 00:13:03,550
Now".
>> This week "Here& Now",

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00:13:04,318 --> 00:13:07,521
senior political reporter
Zac Schultz sat down with

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00:13:07,588 --> 00:13:11,058
the two candidates for the
Wisconsin Supreme Court

255
00:13:11,124 --> 00:13:14,428
election, Appellate Court
Judge Maria Lazar and

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00:13:14,494 --> 00:13:17,431
Appellate Court Judge Chris
Taylor. Over the next two

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weeks, we'll have extended
interviews with the

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00:13:20,634 --> 00:13:23,003
candidates. But this week,
we wanted to show you their

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00:13:23,070 --> 00:13:26,340
reactions to some questions
about ICE enforcement in

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Minneapolis.
>> There's obviously a lot

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00:13:29,510 --> 00:13:31,512
of controversy over ICE's
engagements in Minnesota

262
00:13:31,578 --> 00:13:33,580
right now. There's
speculation that that could

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be moving to Wisconsin.
What role would the

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00:13:38,952 --> 00:13:41,421
Wisconsin court system have
when we've heard some local

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00:13:41,488 --> 00:13:44,091
law enforcement say they
will not work with federal

266
00:13:44,157 --> 00:13:46,260
officials, some say they
will work with when it

267
00:13:46,326 --> 00:13:49,129
comes to protesters rights.
How do you see Wisconsin

268
00:13:49,196 --> 00:13:51,398
courts getting involved in
this, or is this strictly a

269
00:13:51,465 --> 00:13:54,668
federal issue?
the circumstances. You

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00:13:54,735 --> 00:13:57,104
never want to see anyone
injured or lose their life.

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That's a tragedy in all
respects, in every case.

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But I think that cooler
heads have to prevail.

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00:14:03,076 --> 00:14:05,312
There is a right to First
Amendment freedom of speech,

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00:14:05,379 --> 00:14:07,981
but I also believe that
this is an excellent

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00:14:08,048 --> 00:14:11,485
example of why we need our
courts. In this case, it's

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00:14:11,552 --> 00:14:13,854
probably federal courts,
but why we need our courts

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00:14:13,921 --> 00:14:17,758
to be fair, impartial and
independent, to look at the

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00:14:17,824 --> 00:14:21,562
facts, to make a reasoned,
calm decision, and to do so

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00:14:21,628 --> 00:14:24,498
fairly, unjustly.
>> Certainly. I will tell

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00:14:24,565 --> 00:14:27,668
you, Zach, as I go out
around the state, I think

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00:14:27,734 --> 00:14:31,104
that Wisconsinites are
really concerned by what

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00:14:31,171 --> 00:14:34,608
they're seeing in Minnesota.
They're afraid, and I don't

283
00:14:34,675 --> 00:14:39,580
blame them. Courts, state
courts must make sure that

284
00:14:41,915 --> 00:14:46,420
every person who violates
the law is held accountable.

285
00:14:46,486 --> 00:14:50,357
So in Minnesota, they
should do their full and

286
00:14:50,424 --> 00:14:53,360
fair investigation, and
then they will make a

287
00:14:53,427 --> 00:14:56,330
decision that state about
whether criminal charges

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00:14:56,396 --> 00:14:59,032
will be brought and they
should be able to do that.

289
00:14:59,099 --> 00:15:02,269
So yes, state courts
absolutely could be

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00:15:02,336 --> 00:15:05,572
involved because criminal
charges are brought in

291
00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,109
state courts. Typically
nobody is above the law.

292
00:15:09,176 --> 00:15:14,181
The Constitution applies to
everyone. And so I think

293
00:15:14,248 --> 00:15:18,118
that we will see some
involvement or potentially

294
00:15:18,185 --> 00:15:21,255
see involvement if there
are criminal charges filed

295
00:15:21,321 --> 00:15:24,758
in the Minnesota state
courts. And that could

296
00:15:24,825 --> 00:15:26,960
happen here in Wisconsin as
well.

297
00:15:27,027 --> 00:15:29,263
>> And there was a
statement by the FBI

298
00:15:29,329 --> 00:15:31,164
director, Kash Patel, over
the weekend saying, you

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00:15:31,231 --> 00:15:33,700
can't bring a firearm
loaded to any kind of

300
00:15:33,767 --> 00:15:36,537
protest that you want. I
want to get your reaction

301
00:15:36,603 --> 00:15:38,805
to whether that is a true
statement, in the sense

302
00:15:38,872 --> 00:15:40,941
that the First Amendment
and the Second Amendment.

303
00:15:41,008 --> 00:15:43,777
>> I would have no idea
what those rules are with

304
00:15:43,844 --> 00:15:46,146
regard to federal rules
about bringing a firearm. I

305
00:15:46,213 --> 00:15:48,415
think you're violating
possibly the Second

306
00:15:48,482 --> 00:15:50,617
Amendment, where people
have the right to conceal

307
00:15:50,684 --> 00:15:52,986
carry their right to open
carry. I wouldn't comment

308
00:15:53,053 --> 00:15:55,622
on his statement at all
whatsoever.

309
00:15:55,689 --> 00:15:58,792
>> Well, I don't know all
of the laws that the state

310
00:15:58,859 --> 00:16:03,664
of Minnesota, but I believe
they do have a concealed

311
00:16:04,665 --> 00:16:08,836
carry law. So, you know,
this investigation of what

312
00:16:08,902 --> 00:16:12,139
exactly happened in this
scenario will play out and

313
00:16:12,206 --> 00:16:16,210
we will find out a lot more,
and we will see if

314
00:16:18,245 --> 00:16:21,582
Minnesota makes the
decision on how they're

315
00:16:21,648 --> 00:16:24,218
going to act. Are criminal
charges going to be brought

316
00:16:24,284 --> 00:16:26,420
or other charges going to
be brought? But I don't

317
00:16:26,486 --> 00:16:29,256
specifically know all the
laws in Minnesota. But what

318
00:16:29,323 --> 00:16:34,194
I would say is everyone
should support a full and

319
00:16:34,261 --> 00:16:38,832
complete investigation into
what occurred and if there

320
00:16:38,899 --> 00:16:42,769
has been unlawful activity.
People need to be held

321
00:16:42,836 --> 00:16:45,272
accountable. But I want to
make sure that Minnesota

322
00:16:45,339 --> 00:16:48,775
has that ability to do
their investigation and

323
00:16:48,842 --> 00:16:51,845
make their conclusions
before I jump to any

324
00:16:51,912 --> 00:16:55,215
conclusions. But my gosh,
we should be standing in

325
00:16:55,282 --> 00:16:58,752
support of them being able
to do that.

326
00:16:58,819 --> 00:17:01,488
>> Republican candidate for
governor, Josh Schoemann,

327
00:17:01,555 --> 00:17:04,091
dropped out of the race
after President Donald

328
00:17:04,157 --> 00:17:07,594
Trump endorsed Tom Tiffany
this week. Tonight, Zac

329
00:17:07,661 --> 00:17:10,264
Schultz talks with
candidates about funding

330
00:17:10,330 --> 00:17:13,367
for public education and
what they would like to see

331
00:17:13,433 --> 00:17:16,904
happen with the school
voucher program.

332
00:17:16,970 --> 00:17:19,206
>> Calling Wisconsin's
school funding formula

333
00:17:19,273 --> 00:17:22,409
broken is one of the oldest
refrains in state politics,

334
00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:25,612
but the sheer number and
size of operating referenda

335
00:17:25,679 --> 00:17:28,782
around the state show
school districts and voters

336
00:17:28,849 --> 00:17:32,052
agree the state is not
providing enough money.

337
00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,221
>> Well, you can't do it
without money, and we've

338
00:17:34,288 --> 00:17:36,390
been asking schools and
teachers to do more and

339
00:17:36,456 --> 00:17:39,326
more with less and less and
less. Our kids haven't even

340
00:17:39,393 --> 00:17:41,395
gotten an inflationary
increase for 15 years. That

341
00:17:41,461 --> 00:17:45,699
to me is unacceptable. So
money is essential. But

342
00:17:45,766 --> 00:17:49,670
it's not only money, right?
Teachers also need

343
00:17:49,736 --> 00:17:52,573
professional development
time and training and the

344
00:17:52,639 --> 00:17:55,542
respect that they deserve.
As professionals, the

345
00:17:55,609 --> 00:17:57,978
single most important
factor in a kids success is

346
00:17:58,045 --> 00:18:00,681
the quality of the teacher
at the front of the

347
00:18:00,747 --> 00:18:02,950
classroom. So investing in
teacher retention so that

348
00:18:03,016 --> 00:18:06,153
we have the most
experienced, the most

349
00:18:06,220 --> 00:18:08,822
capable, skilled teachers
able to stay in the

350
00:18:08,889 --> 00:18:12,693
classroom and stay in the
education field and mentor

351
00:18:12,759 --> 00:18:14,928
newer teachers, I think is
absolutely essential.

352
00:18:14,995 --> 00:18:17,898
>> I think, you know, we've
got to make sure that we

353
00:18:17,965 --> 00:18:21,101
look absolutely at how do
we spend more on public

354
00:18:21,168 --> 00:18:24,905
education in Wisconsin? One
of the challenges, I think,

355
00:18:24,972 --> 00:18:28,075
is that we're still working
on a system. Tommy Thompson

356
00:18:28,141 --> 00:18:31,211
took a snapshot of what
things looked like in 1993,

357
00:18:31,278 --> 00:18:33,247
and we're still looking
we're still working with

358
00:18:33,313 --> 00:18:35,749
that system 32 years later.
I think it would be

359
00:18:35,816 --> 00:18:38,785
courageous and necessary
for us to look at exactly

360
00:18:38,852 --> 00:18:42,956
what we need to do for 2026
and moving forward, rather

361
00:18:43,023 --> 00:18:45,192
than trying to make the
best of a 30 year old

362
00:18:45,259 --> 00:18:47,427
systems.
>> We used to fund our

363
00:18:47,494 --> 00:18:50,397
public schools to the tune
of two thirds, and we no

364
00:18:50,464 --> 00:18:52,533
longer do that. And now,
not just our teachers, but

365
00:18:52,599 --> 00:18:54,668
our young people are
hurting every single day.

366
00:18:54,735 --> 00:18:57,604
And I think that we need to
actually take a step back.

367
00:18:57,671 --> 00:19:00,574
We need to take a step back
and look at not just our

368
00:19:00,641 --> 00:19:02,743
revenues, but how we're
spending money. I think

369
00:19:02,809 --> 00:19:05,612
that we should put in place
a blue ribbon commission on

370
00:19:05,679 --> 00:19:07,681
taxes. This isn't something.
This is something that

371
00:19:07,748 --> 00:19:10,350
hasn't happened since the
mid 80s. But this gives an

372
00:19:10,417 --> 00:19:14,254
opportunity for university
officials to be at the

373
00:19:14,321 --> 00:19:17,524
table. Business leaders,
government folks, you know,

374
00:19:17,591 --> 00:19:21,929
just the public to have a
transparent conversation.

375
00:19:21,995 --> 00:19:24,731
What's working in other
states, what can we bring

376
00:19:24,798 --> 00:19:28,402
here to make sure that we
have a system of revenue

377
00:19:28,468 --> 00:19:31,672
and spending that works for
everyone and works to the

378
00:19:31,738 --> 00:19:33,640
future?
>> The reform is in our

379
00:19:33,707 --> 00:19:36,143
inequitable school funding
formula that pits

380
00:19:36,210 --> 00:19:38,312
communities against one
another, that raises

381
00:19:38,378 --> 00:19:42,416
property taxes, but also
makes it so that the

382
00:19:42,482 --> 00:19:44,751
disparities among students,
especially those who are

383
00:19:44,818 --> 00:19:49,356
lower income, are not being
addressed. And so

384
00:19:49,423 --> 00:19:52,726
increasing special
education for 90%

385
00:19:52,793 --> 00:19:54,528
reimbursement at some
sufficient levels and

386
00:19:54,595 --> 00:19:57,497
making sure that we're
increasing general aids.

387
00:19:57,564 --> 00:20:00,667
Our schools have been
defunded for over a decade

388
00:20:00,734 --> 00:20:04,204
now, and if we do not
prioritize public education,

389
00:20:04,271 --> 00:20:07,875
which is one of our last
remaining democratic

390
00:20:07,941 --> 00:20:10,110
institutions, we as a state
will not succeed.

391
00:20:10,177 --> 00:20:12,412
>> We need to make sure
that we are investing the

392
00:20:12,479 --> 00:20:15,282
money, because what we see
all across the state is

393
00:20:15,349 --> 00:20:18,018
that there are all of these
referendums, and people are

394
00:20:18,085 --> 00:20:21,688
voting to increase their
own taxes, not to pay for a

395
00:20:21,755 --> 00:20:24,358
new science lab, not to pay
for a new middle school,

396
00:20:24,424 --> 00:20:28,395
but to pay for operational
expenses, teachers salaries.

397
00:20:28,462 --> 00:20:30,964
And that is just
unsustainable moving

398
00:20:31,031 --> 00:20:33,166
forward. So we have to put
more dollars into the

399
00:20:33,233 --> 00:20:35,903
public school system, but
we also have to look at

400
00:20:35,969 --> 00:20:37,938
reform to make sure that
kids are getting the

401
00:20:38,005 --> 00:20:40,140
education they need to be
able to succeed.

402
00:20:40,207 --> 00:20:43,110
>> I'm I would be fine if
we put more money into

403
00:20:43,177 --> 00:20:45,245
education. In fact, I
expect that we will. But we

404
00:20:45,312 --> 00:20:48,282
need to make sure that it
goes to goes to children

405
00:20:48,348 --> 00:20:52,920
and families. We should pay
good teachers more, and I

406
00:20:52,986 --> 00:20:56,156
think we should reward
administrators that are

407
00:20:56,223 --> 00:20:58,325
successful in their schools.
We have to get back to

408
00:20:58,392 --> 00:21:03,030
where we reward success in
education. And I think

409
00:21:03,096 --> 00:21:07,100
that's one of the ways we
we fix this problem of us

410
00:21:07,167 --> 00:21:11,271
falling behind Mississippi.
And but I'm not averse to

411
00:21:11,338 --> 00:21:14,341
putting more money in. But
it there has to be

412
00:21:14,408 --> 00:21:16,276
accountability.
>> I believe that every

413
00:21:16,343 --> 00:21:19,179
school in the state of
Wisconsin can be a world

414
00:21:19,246 --> 00:21:22,516
class school, but it takes
the investments. If we

415
00:21:22,583 --> 00:21:25,285
can't compare students who
have every single need met

416
00:21:25,352 --> 00:21:28,288
versus those who have
hardly any needs met, we

417
00:21:28,355 --> 00:21:30,757
have to invest in the whole
child. And that's the kind

418
00:21:30,824 --> 00:21:32,860
of overhaul that I'm
looking at, ensuring that

419
00:21:32,926 --> 00:21:36,129
all of our students are fed,
all of our students are

420
00:21:36,196 --> 00:21:39,066
housed, all of our students
have the health care,

421
00:21:39,132 --> 00:21:41,902
mental and physical health
care and make sure that all

422
00:21:41,969 --> 00:21:44,638
they have all their needs
met. So when they're

423
00:21:44,705 --> 00:21:46,773
showing up to school, they
are ready to learn so that

424
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,610
when they go home, they
have a foundation that

425
00:21:49,676 --> 00:21:51,945
retains the education that
they got in that school

426
00:21:52,012 --> 00:21:54,748
building. Until we start
looking at complete

427
00:21:54,815 --> 00:21:57,384
outcomes for all of our
children, then the

428
00:21:57,451 --> 00:21:59,686
conversation about was, is
it funding? Is it not

429
00:21:59,753 --> 00:22:02,422
funding? It's immaterial.
>> You know, right now

430
00:22:02,489 --> 00:22:05,692
we're in this situation
where we have said that

431
00:22:05,759 --> 00:22:08,095
competition is good. We
decades ago, we decided,

432
00:22:08,161 --> 00:22:10,264
you know, competition is
going to make our public

433
00:22:10,330 --> 00:22:12,599
schools better. But one
thing that we're not doing

434
00:22:12,666 --> 00:22:15,235
is looking at the rating of
how other schools are doing

435
00:22:15,302 --> 00:22:18,338
that are receiving public
funds, whether those are

436
00:22:18,405 --> 00:22:21,608
charter schools or other
types of choice schools. We

437
00:22:21,675 --> 00:22:23,877
need to have a scale that
helps us understand how are

438
00:22:23,944 --> 00:22:26,813
they competing. It isn't
necessarily that something

439
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,516
must be better than public
schools. It's let's have a

440
00:22:29,583 --> 00:22:32,553
real accountability. Make
sure our kids are achieving

441
00:22:32,619 --> 00:22:35,355
and getting the quality
that they need in order to

442
00:22:35,422 --> 00:22:37,424
succeed.
>> Wisconsin School Voucher

443
00:22:37,491 --> 00:22:40,694
Program was created in the
1990s in Milwaukee and

444
00:22:40,761 --> 00:22:44,398
expanded statewide in 2011.
As the cost of the program

445
00:22:44,464 --> 00:22:47,501
has grown, the question we
put to the candidates is

446
00:22:47,568 --> 00:22:50,804
whether it should expand
contract or stay the same.

447
00:22:50,871 --> 00:22:53,540
>> I think that we need to
look and make sure that we

448
00:22:53,607 --> 00:22:56,543
have good accountability
and transparency first,

449
00:22:56,610 --> 00:22:59,446
before we start making
decisions about stopping or

450
00:22:59,513 --> 00:23:02,049
starting or eliminating, we
need to understand what are

451
00:23:02,115 --> 00:23:05,452
they providing for our
children and our families,

452
00:23:05,519 --> 00:23:07,621
because there are families
that are counting on those

453
00:23:07,688 --> 00:23:10,457
voucher schools. But at the
same time, it can't come at

454
00:23:10,524 --> 00:23:12,559
the cost of public schools,
and it can't come at the

455
00:23:12,626 --> 00:23:15,329
cost of making sure that
we're funding special

456
00:23:15,395 --> 00:23:17,764
education.
accountability. That's the

457
00:23:17,831 --> 00:23:20,467
most important thing we can
do. That has to be

458
00:23:20,534 --> 00:23:22,503
paramount. We have to
ensure that there are

459
00:23:22,569 --> 00:23:26,373
structures in place that
don't create a playing

460
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,077
field, where some schools
operate by one set of rules,

461
00:23:30,143 --> 00:23:32,412
and another set of schools
operates by a different set

462
00:23:32,479 --> 00:23:34,648
of rules. Any public
funding should come with

463
00:23:34,715 --> 00:23:37,150
public accountability. And
that's a that's the bottom

464
00:23:37,217 --> 00:23:38,919
line.
>> You know, we've had

465
00:23:38,986 --> 00:23:40,988
choice in Wisconsin and
it's worked for thousands

466
00:23:41,054 --> 00:23:43,257
of families across the
state of Wisconsin. And we

467
00:23:43,323 --> 00:23:46,793
should continue to have
that program. But I'm a

468
00:23:46,860 --> 00:23:48,829
product of public schools
as well as my seven

469
00:23:48,896 --> 00:23:51,598
brothers and sisters. All
three of my daughters went

470
00:23:51,665 --> 00:23:55,502
to public schools up in the
Minocqua area, and public

471
00:23:55,569 --> 00:23:58,305
schooling has a long, proud
history in Wisconsin. We

472
00:23:58,372 --> 00:24:01,208
need to make sure that we
have a strong private,

473
00:24:01,275 --> 00:24:03,810
public, and parochial
system. Regardless of how

474
00:24:03,877 --> 00:24:06,213
you choose to educate,
we've got to make sure we

475
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,383
have a strong educational
system.

476
00:24:09,449 --> 00:24:11,385
absolutely address the
voucher system. We need to

477
00:24:11,451 --> 00:24:13,754
make sure that the voucher
system is what it was

478
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:17,491
originally intended to do,
which was for low income

479
00:24:17,558 --> 00:24:20,527
families to be able to have
some choices. And right now

480
00:24:20,594 --> 00:24:23,096
we do not have an income
limit on the voucher system,

481
00:24:23,163 --> 00:24:25,999
and we're going to be
taking off the cap for the

482
00:24:26,066 --> 00:24:28,602
vouchers. That is going to
be funneling public money

483
00:24:28,669 --> 00:24:31,972
into private schools. We
cannot afford to have two

484
00:24:32,039 --> 00:24:34,741
separate school systems
within the state of

485
00:24:34,808 --> 00:24:36,777
Wisconsin. So we're going
to have to have some reform

486
00:24:36,844 --> 00:24:39,680
in that area as well.
>> I am very concerned

487
00:24:39,746 --> 00:24:42,983
about public dollars going
to private schools and a

488
00:24:43,050 --> 00:24:46,553
system that is
unaccountable and not

489
00:24:46,620 --> 00:24:49,790
transparent in how they may
or may not be serving our

490
00:24:49,857 --> 00:24:52,893
kids. And so it's critical
that we look at a program

491
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,530
that seems more and more to
be like a scam.

492
00:24:56,597 --> 00:24:59,233
>> I think one, we need to
fully fund our public

493
00:24:59,299 --> 00:25:02,002
school systems. You cannot
get rid of the voucher

494
00:25:02,069 --> 00:25:05,239
system unless our schools
are in a place to actually

495
00:25:05,305 --> 00:25:08,842
educate all of our students
in every community across

496
00:25:08,909 --> 00:25:10,777
Wisconsin, and that means
fully funding our public

497
00:25:10,844 --> 00:25:13,847
school systems. But any
system that is receiving

498
00:25:13,914 --> 00:25:17,117
public dollars should be
held to the same standards

499
00:25:17,184 --> 00:25:19,419
of our public schools. They
need to be transparent,

500
00:25:19,486 --> 00:25:21,421
they need to be held
accountable, and they need

501
00:25:21,488 --> 00:25:24,391
to make sure, again, to be
held to the same standards

502
00:25:24,458 --> 00:25:26,159
that public schools are
held to, no matter what

503
00:25:26,226 --> 00:25:28,262
community they're in. In
Wisconsin.

504
00:25:28,328 --> 00:25:30,731
>> The voucher system has
now been in place for the

505
00:25:30,797 --> 00:25:34,067
last 30 years. I'm not
interested in a dramatic

506
00:25:34,134 --> 00:25:36,170
expansion of it, but I also
think there's challenges of

507
00:25:36,236 --> 00:25:38,939
trying to put that genie
back into the bottle. I

508
00:25:39,006 --> 00:25:41,775
think the most fundamental
thing for us is around

509
00:25:41,842 --> 00:25:44,044
accountability for
everybody in education,

510
00:25:44,111 --> 00:25:46,647
making sure that we have
the right investment in

511
00:25:46,713 --> 00:25:49,149
kids and making sure that
we're holding ourselves,

512
00:25:49,216 --> 00:25:52,186
holding schools accountable
for the challenges that we

513
00:25:52,252 --> 00:25:55,322
have in education. But at
the same time, you know, as

514
00:25:55,389 --> 00:25:58,058
in anything with education,
there are lots of problems

515
00:25:58,125 --> 00:25:59,993
that come to the
schoolhouse door that have

516
00:26:00,060 --> 00:26:02,629
nothing to do with what
happens inside that

517
00:26:02,696 --> 00:26:05,599
schoolhouse.
voucher system brought to a

518
00:26:05,666 --> 00:26:08,435
responsible close. We
simply cannot and should

519
00:26:08,502 --> 00:26:11,238
not try to fund two
different, separate school

520
00:26:11,305 --> 00:26:15,209
systems. Their taxpayer
money needs to be

521
00:26:15,909 --> 00:26:18,078
accountable to taxpayers,
and public dollars should

522
00:26:18,145 --> 00:26:20,480
fund the public school
system.

523
00:26:20,547 --> 00:26:23,083
>> Reporting from Madison.
I'm Zach Schulze for "Here&

524
00:26:23,150 --> 00:26:25,786
Now".
>> For more on this and

525
00:26:25,853 --> 00:26:28,355
other issues facing
Wisconsin, visit our

526
00:26:28,422 --> 00:26:31,859
website at PBS Wisconsin.
Org and then click on the

527
00:26:31,925 --> 00:26:34,661
news tab. That's our
program for tonight I'm

528
00:26:34,728 --> 00:26:38,632
Frederica Freyberg. Have a
good weekend.

529
00:26:44,304 --> 00:26:46,807
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

530
00:26:46,874 --> 00:26:51,545
Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.