1 00:00:08,242 --> 00:00:11,278 PBS Wisconsin original production. 2 00:00:11,345 --> 00:00:14,314 >> Federal workers, foodshare and health care 3 00:00:14,381 --> 00:00:17,818 are caught in a crossfire of the shutdown showdown. 4 00:00:17,885 --> 00:00:20,787 [MUSIC] Schultz filling in for 5 00:00:21,622 --> 00:00:24,424 Frederica Freyberg tonight on "Here& Now". Congressman 6 00:00:24,491 --> 00:00:27,160 Glenn Grothman and Mark Pocan weigh in as the 7 00:00:27,227 --> 00:00:28,996 government shutdown becomes the second longest in 8 00:00:29,062 --> 00:00:33,867 history. UW-Madison Chancellor Jennifer Mnookin 9 00:00:34,468 --> 00:00:37,971 of speech on campus in PFAS pollution isn't going away. 10 00:00:38,038 --> 00:00:41,441 Murv Seymour reports from one community demanding 11 00:00:41,508 --> 00:00:45,612 answers. It's "Here& Now" for October 24th. 12 00:00:45,679 --> 00:00:48,148 >> Funding for here and Now is provided by the Focus 13 00:00:48,215 --> 00:00:52,886 Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin. 14 00:00:59,660 --> 00:01:04,665 >> We are on day 23 of the federal government shutdown. 15 00:01:05,399 --> 00:01:08,068 failed 12 times to pass the House bill that would 16 00:01:08,135 --> 00:01:10,637 reopen the government. Joining us now is 17 00:01:10,704 --> 00:01:12,206 Republican Congressman Glenn Grothman. Congressman, 18 00:01:12,272 --> 00:01:16,143 thanks for joining us. >> Glad to be on the show. 19 00:01:16,210 --> 00:01:19,179 >> So the continuing resolution the House passed 20 00:01:19,246 --> 00:01:21,415 would only fund the government through November 21 00:01:21,481 --> 00:01:24,184 21st. And at this point, we're almost closer to that 22 00:01:24,251 --> 00:01:28,422 date than the start of the shutdown. Do you think 23 00:01:28,488 --> 00:01:32,693 a new CR with maybe a longer date behind it? 24 00:01:32,759 --> 00:01:37,631 >> Well, I think we should. First of all, wait a little 25 00:01:37,698 --> 00:01:41,068 bit and see if the Democrats will vote to keep 26 00:01:41,134 --> 00:01:44,037 the government open. I mean, like you just said, the 27 00:01:44,104 --> 00:01:46,373 Republicans in the Senate, my own Ron Johnson, have 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,209 voted 12 times to keep the government open. And it's 29 00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:52,145 what is normally automatic. So you understand we are 30 00:01:52,212 --> 00:01:54,982 waiting for a budget for the calendar year, for the 31 00:01:55,048 --> 00:01:59,620 fiscal year beginning October 1st, 13 times when 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,823 Joe Biden was president, the Republicans helped him 33 00:02:02,890 --> 00:02:06,159 out by keeping the government open in similar 34 00:02:06,226 --> 00:02:10,364 circumstances. I bet it didn't even make the shows 35 00:02:10,430 --> 00:02:14,034 right. So I think a lot of us still want to believe 36 00:02:14,101 --> 00:02:17,004 that the Democrats will do what is par for the course 37 00:02:17,070 --> 00:02:20,040 has been for decades, and just vote to keep the 38 00:02:20,107 --> 00:02:21,808 government open. No reason not to. 39 00:02:21,875 --> 00:02:24,344 >> So the hangup for Democrats in the Senate, 40 00:02:24,411 --> 00:02:27,247 according to them, is this extension of Affordable 41 00:02:27,314 --> 00:02:30,918 Care Act subsidies. They're holding out for that. They 42 00:02:30,984 --> 00:02:33,287 expire at the end of the year. November 1st is when 43 00:02:33,353 --> 00:02:34,988 those subsidies, when the marketplace opens, and 44 00:02:35,055 --> 00:02:37,591 people may see what premiums may look like. 45 00:02:37,658 --> 00:02:39,426 Without those subsidies. Would you vote to extend 46 00:02:39,493 --> 00:02:41,995 the subsidies if that was the deciding factor in a 47 00:02:42,062 --> 00:02:44,364 deal? >> You got to remember, 48 00:02:44,431 --> 00:02:47,100 it's always good to say we're going to vote for 49 00:02:47,167 --> 00:02:49,503 more spending of every type. But right now we're 50 00:02:49,570 --> 00:02:52,873 borrowing 26% of our budget. That's why we've got to get 51 00:02:52,940 --> 00:02:57,377 the continuing resolution passed, because there may 52 00:02:57,444 --> 00:03:00,214 wind up being a little more for subsidies in there, but 53 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,550 it depends upon what's going on in the other items. 54 00:03:03,617 --> 00:03:06,119 We've got about $1.8 trillion in discretionary 55 00:03:06,186 --> 00:03:10,824 spending that we're voting to extend, of which the 56 00:03:10,891 --> 00:03:15,162 Obamacare subsidies are part of. That is because 57 00:03:15,229 --> 00:03:19,132 the Obamacare is flawed. It would be nice to change. 58 00:03:19,199 --> 00:03:21,235 Obamacare works, so we don't have to keep dipping 59 00:03:21,301 --> 00:03:23,871 further and further into subsidies. But again, we've 60 00:03:23,937 --> 00:03:27,941 got to ask the Democrats 26% of our budget is 61 00:03:28,809 --> 00:03:33,413 borrowed. What do you plan on cutting instead? If you 62 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:38,285 do want to put $34 billion a year, which is about what 63 00:03:38,352 --> 00:03:41,588 they're looking at into Obamacare subsidies. 64 00:03:41,655 --> 00:03:45,392 >> So one of the things that people in the public 65 00:03:45,459 --> 00:03:47,127 that are receiving these subsidies aren't as nuanced 66 00:03:47,194 --> 00:03:49,296 in the federal government spending as obviously you 67 00:03:49,363 --> 00:03:52,533 are. But when they hear headlines like $20 billion 68 00:03:52,599 --> 00:03:55,135 for Argentina to bail out their economy, but we can't 69 00:03:55,202 --> 00:03:57,971 afford subsidies for Americans. How do you 70 00:03:58,038 --> 00:04:02,409 explain that discrepancy >> Well, I think President 71 00:04:02,476 --> 00:04:04,411 Trump is in a situation in which he doesn't want 72 00:04:04,478 --> 00:04:07,247 Argentina to become a new Venezuela, which would be 73 00:04:07,314 --> 00:04:12,586 even more wildly expensive to deal with. I think they 74 00:04:12,653 --> 00:04:15,422 just have to realize the Obamacare was poorly drawn 75 00:04:15,489 --> 00:04:19,993 up. We are prepared to keep the government open. And 76 00:04:20,060 --> 00:04:23,931 then as far as subsidies are concerned, you know, 77 00:04:23,997 --> 00:04:26,433 they've got to ask us where other parts of the budget 78 00:04:26,500 --> 00:04:29,236 are that they don't want to spend as much on. Again, 79 00:04:29,303 --> 00:04:32,673 the Americans have to get used to the fact that right 80 00:04:32,739 --> 00:04:35,509 now we're borrowing 26% of our budget. You're talking 81 00:04:35,576 --> 00:04:38,078 about Obamacare subsidies. I'll tell you when I'm in 82 00:04:38,145 --> 00:04:41,148 my office, again and again and again, I meet Americans 83 00:04:41,215 --> 00:04:44,184 who want the government to spend more money. Can we 84 00:04:44,251 --> 00:04:46,220 spend more here? Can we spend more there? And, you 85 00:04:46,286 --> 00:04:50,991 know, I can think of things that can be done to get to 86 00:04:51,058 --> 00:04:53,093 $34 billion, but the Democrats haven't put those 87 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,496 things on the table. And in part, they haven't put them 88 00:04:56,563 --> 00:04:59,466 on the table because we're not negotiating. We're not 89 00:04:59,533 --> 00:05:01,935 should keep the government open first. It's just not 90 00:05:02,002 --> 00:05:05,439 that difficult of a demand. It's something that's done 91 00:05:05,506 --> 00:05:09,042 automatically. And if you look at the statements in 92 00:05:09,109 --> 00:05:11,879 the, the, the journals that are put out in Washington, 93 00:05:11,945 --> 00:05:15,215 D.C. the Democrats admit that the reason they are 94 00:05:15,282 --> 00:05:18,085 not opening the government is they want to use 95 00:05:18,151 --> 00:05:22,155 leverage, not just on Obamacare, but on on things 96 00:05:22,222 --> 00:05:25,893 like Moore DEI programs, for example, which I think 97 00:05:25,959 --> 00:05:29,463 are just the most vicious things and wouldn't be 98 00:05:29,530 --> 00:05:33,166 wouldn't be good to spend us the money for free. 99 00:05:33,233 --> 00:05:36,036 >> So the consumer price index was released today 100 00:05:36,103 --> 00:05:40,641 and showed inflation was up 3% in September. And they 101 00:05:40,707 --> 00:05:42,910 say largely due to tariffs. Do you continue to support 102 00:05:42,976 --> 00:05:45,879 Donald Trump's tariff policy? 103 00:05:46,446 --> 00:05:50,751 >> I'm not as big a fan as tariffs as some other 104 00:05:50,817 --> 00:05:54,588 people, but you know, President Trump is our 105 00:05:54,655 --> 00:05:58,525 president. He's a big fan of tariffs, as is his 106 00:05:58,592 --> 00:06:01,061 treasury secretary. Mike Johnson has canceled 107 00:06:01,128 --> 00:06:04,131 floor sessions over the past couple of weeks. 108 00:06:04,198 --> 00:06:06,300 Democrats say it's because he doesn't want to swear in 109 00:06:06,366 --> 00:06:08,068 a newly elected Democrat from Arizona, who 110 00:06:08,135 --> 00:06:11,171 potentially could be the final vote to discharge 111 00:06:11,238 --> 00:06:14,174 Epstein files. Do you believe that? Or do you 112 00:06:14,241 --> 00:06:15,876 think there's another reason the floor the house 113 00:06:15,943 --> 00:06:18,745 hasn't come back to the floor? 114 00:06:19,346 --> 00:06:21,715 >> I think the reason he doesn't want Republicans 115 00:06:21,782 --> 00:06:23,817 back in Washington is I think he wants to control 116 00:06:23,884 --> 00:06:27,287 the narrative as far as what's going on during the 117 00:06:27,354 --> 00:06:30,157 shutdown. And I think he's afraid if you had 200 more 118 00:06:30,224 --> 00:06:31,758 Republicans running around Washington, the reporters 119 00:06:31,825 --> 00:06:34,027 would find somebody to say something that maybe 120 00:06:34,094 --> 00:06:36,830 Speaker Johnson wouldn't like. I was back in 121 00:06:36,897 --> 00:06:39,566 Washington this week. I plan on returning to 122 00:06:39,633 --> 00:06:42,936 Washington next Monday, and me there, they can 123 00:06:43,003 --> 00:06:45,639 interview me there. I don't I don't have a problem 124 00:06:45,706 --> 00:06:48,475 going back to Washington. >> And today, the Trump 125 00:06:48,542 --> 00:06:51,879 administration announced application for federal 126 00:06:51,945 --> 00:06:54,481 disaster relief for six counties damaged by 127 00:06:54,548 --> 00:06:57,651 flooding in August. Some of those in your your district. 128 00:06:57,718 --> 00:07:00,521 What is your reaction to that? 129 00:07:00,988 --> 00:07:04,224 >> I was very disappointed. Obviously, we're very broke. 130 00:07:04,291 --> 00:07:08,829 That may be one of the things that's entering into 131 00:07:08,896 --> 00:07:12,099 the decision. It's we just got out today and I'll be 132 00:07:12,165 --> 00:07:15,068 in contact with the Trump administration and see the 133 00:07:15,135 --> 00:07:17,070 reason for those decisions. >> All right, Congressman 134 00:07:17,137 --> 00:07:19,606 Grothman, thanks for your time today. 135 00:07:19,673 --> 00:07:21,575 >> Thank you very much. >> For the opposing 136 00:07:21,642 --> 00:07:24,278 viewpoint. We are now joined by Democratic 137 00:07:24,344 --> 00:07:25,846 Congressman Mark Pocan. Thanks for being here. 138 00:07:25,913 --> 00:07:28,715 >> Yeah, thanks for having me. 139 00:07:29,149 --> 00:07:33,153 encourage Senate Democrats this continuing resolution? 140 00:07:33,220 --> 00:07:35,756 >> I think we need to make sure that people understand 141 00:07:35,822 --> 00:07:37,991 what's at stake, and I think people will by 142 00:07:38,058 --> 00:07:39,860 November 1st, you have to will have the rate 143 00:07:39,927 --> 00:07:42,296 increases for the Affordable Care Act for 144 00:07:42,362 --> 00:07:44,097 almost everyone's group plans. And I think that 145 00:07:44,164 --> 00:07:47,100 will show what we've been talking about all along, 146 00:07:47,167 --> 00:07:49,169 which is 15 million people are going to ultimately 147 00:07:49,236 --> 00:07:52,105 lose their health insurance because of the big ugly law. 148 00:07:52,172 --> 00:07:55,142 And right now, I had an employer told me just a 149 00:07:55,209 --> 00:07:57,978 couple of weeks ago that their new increase for next 150 00:07:58,045 --> 00:08:00,113 year insurance is 41%, and that's because of the 151 00:08:00,180 --> 00:08:02,883 uncompensated care created by the Affordable Care Act. 152 00:08:02,950 --> 00:08:05,285 So I think they just need to make sure that 153 00:08:05,352 --> 00:08:07,921 Republicans I know are getting the calls like we 154 00:08:07,988 --> 00:08:10,924 are when it comes to this, and it's going to only 155 00:08:10,991 --> 00:08:15,562 intensify by November 1st rates. So, you know, I 156 00:08:15,629 --> 00:08:18,265 would just say, hold tight, federal workers who are 157 00:08:18,332 --> 00:08:20,734 really being heroes in all this right now, going 158 00:08:20,801 --> 00:08:24,238 without paychecks, is about. But we've got to 159 00:08:24,304 --> 00:08:27,040 make sure that people don't lose one of the most 160 00:08:27,107 --> 00:08:28,642 important economic, you know, legs to a stool that 161 00:08:28,709 --> 00:08:31,144 they have. >> So the Trump 162 00:08:31,211 --> 00:08:33,013 administration doesn't seem to mind the shutdown. 163 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:35,148 They're trying to lay off thousands of federal 164 00:08:35,215 --> 00:08:37,351 employees. Trump's building his white House ballroom 165 00:08:37,417 --> 00:08:41,021 right now, not worried about any fiscal situation. 166 00:08:41,088 --> 00:08:43,624 What is their incentive to negotiate even after 167 00:08:43,690 --> 00:08:47,361 November 1st? think we're going to be 168 00:08:47,427 --> 00:08:50,130 about two and a half weeks out from the original seven 169 00:08:50,197 --> 00:08:51,999 weeks they had. Anyway, we've kind of got to get 170 00:08:52,065 --> 00:08:54,368 together and do something because the time will have 171 00:08:54,434 --> 00:08:56,904 run out for even their original kind of arbitrary 172 00:08:56,970 --> 00:08:59,139 deadline they did without negotiating to begin with, 173 00:08:59,206 --> 00:09:01,141 with us. So I think that's what's going to happen. But, 174 00:09:01,208 --> 00:09:04,278 you know, as you pointed out, I mean, Donald Trump, 175 00:09:04,344 --> 00:09:06,947 you know, he's using this as an excuse to fire people, 176 00:09:07,014 --> 00:09:09,883 but he's already fired 200,000 people either 177 00:09:09,950 --> 00:09:12,286 firings since he's been president, which he doesn't 178 00:09:12,352 --> 00:09:14,288 have the authority. There's been all kinds of lawsuits, 179 00:09:14,354 --> 00:09:17,224 but this has already been happening. That's part of 180 00:09:17,291 --> 00:09:19,226 the problem. If you can't actually have an agreement 181 00:09:19,293 --> 00:09:22,329 like we used to in Congress, and that somehow the 182 00:09:22,396 --> 00:09:24,364 executive branch is going to steal the funds that 183 00:09:24,431 --> 00:09:27,701 we've agreed to in a bipartisan way, then you 184 00:09:27,768 --> 00:09:31,171 don't really have an unfortunately the place 185 00:09:31,238 --> 00:09:33,607 you know, this is really right now about protecting 186 00:09:33,674 --> 00:09:36,543 people's health care. And by the way, all of us are 187 00:09:36,610 --> 00:09:38,512 going to pay more for health care because of that 188 00:09:38,579 --> 00:09:40,514 law, because of that uncompensated care. And it 189 00:09:40,581 --> 00:09:42,316 will help everyone in having this fight. 190 00:09:42,382 --> 00:09:45,252 >> So how long can the government function in 191 00:09:45,319 --> 00:09:48,255 shutdown mode? At what point do things just they 192 00:09:48,322 --> 00:09:50,991 don't they can't function at all. And they shut down. 193 00:09:51,058 --> 00:09:53,260 >> Yeah. Places like Wisconsin. You feel it less, 194 00:09:53,327 --> 00:09:56,196 right? I think I was doing a town hall in Derrick Van 195 00:09:56,263 --> 00:09:59,333 Orden district last week and I asked about 50 people. 196 00:09:59,399 --> 00:10:01,068 I said, who's feeling the impact directly? And one 197 00:10:01,134 --> 00:10:03,370 person raised their hand out of 50 people. But 198 00:10:03,437 --> 00:10:05,239 that's because we're in Wisconsin. But, you know, 199 00:10:05,305 --> 00:10:08,141 if you're trying to get Ahold of Social Security, 200 00:10:08,208 --> 00:10:10,143 you want to go to a national park. But now if 201 00:10:10,210 --> 00:10:12,479 you're eligible for Snap benefits, right, you're 202 00:10:12,546 --> 00:10:15,182 going to start feeling it. So you're going to see more 203 00:10:15,249 --> 00:10:17,918 of those things now happen. I just think by the time 204 00:10:17,985 --> 00:10:20,454 next week I'm going to go back to Washington, even if 205 00:10:20,521 --> 00:10:22,489 the House Republicans aren't, I'm going to show 206 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:25,292 up because that's my job to be there. But at the same 207 00:10:25,359 --> 00:10:28,161 time, we're going to be at two and a half weeks out 208 00:10:28,228 --> 00:10:30,330 from their artificial deadline anyway, right? So 209 00:10:30,397 --> 00:10:33,267 at some point we have to quit holding our breath. If 210 00:10:33,333 --> 00:10:35,102 you're the House Republicans, show up in 211 00:10:35,169 --> 00:10:38,172 Washington and let's this, let's negotiate the 212 00:10:38,238 --> 00:10:40,707 farm bill that's two years overdue. Let's do the Older 213 00:10:40,774 --> 00:10:43,677 Americans Act overdue. But let's do 214 00:10:43,744 --> 00:10:45,779 something. Just simply taking another week of paid 215 00:10:45,846 --> 00:10:49,082 vacation doesn't solve anything. 216 00:10:49,850 --> 00:10:52,886 House Republicans and Speaker Mike Johnson 217 00:10:52,953 --> 00:10:55,155 newly elected Democrat from Arizona. Do you think that 218 00:10:55,222 --> 00:10:57,457 is related to this discharge petition over the 219 00:10:57,524 --> 00:11:00,294 Epstein files, or is it simply they're just not in 220 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,197 session? There's no need to come back because there's 221 00:11:03,263 --> 00:11:06,400 the government shutdown. things. I think they think 222 00:11:06,466 --> 00:11:09,203 this is leverage to try to bring us back, to reopen 223 00:11:09,269 --> 00:11:11,371 the government without fixing health care. I think 224 00:11:11,438 --> 00:11:14,174 some of it is about is the 218th signature in Donald 225 00:11:14,241 --> 00:11:16,009 Trump, for, for whatever reason, now doesn't want 226 00:11:16,076 --> 00:11:18,212 the release of the Epstein files after campaigning on 227 00:11:18,278 --> 00:11:20,981 releasing them, but I don't. I've learned I can't 228 00:11:21,048 --> 00:11:24,251 predict Republicans anymore. Right? I mean, it's been so, 229 00:11:24,318 --> 00:11:26,987 you know, the fact that you just don't even try to come 230 00:11:27,054 --> 00:11:29,623 to Washington to do your job to negotiate, whether 231 00:11:29,690 --> 00:11:31,158 it be the shutdown, health care, farm bill, anything, 232 00:11:31,225 --> 00:11:33,861 you just think you don't have to show up. That's a 233 00:11:33,927 --> 00:11:36,029 weird dynamic that, you know, I've been doing this 234 00:11:36,096 --> 00:11:40,000 for a long time in local, state and federal 235 00:11:40,634 --> 00:11:42,736 don't know if I understand their messaging. I'm not 236 00:11:42,803 --> 00:11:44,938 sure they do because they keep changing your 237 00:11:45,005 --> 00:11:47,174 messaging. We're very clear. We're fighting for the 238 00:11:47,241 --> 00:11:49,309 affordability of health care so that people don't 239 00:11:49,376 --> 00:11:52,145 lose their health insurance, and we all don't pay more 240 00:11:52,212 --> 00:11:54,147 for it. And I think that's a fight people understand. 241 00:11:54,214 --> 00:11:56,216 >> So the midterms are still a year away. 242 00:11:56,283 --> 00:11:58,085 Historically, there's little evidence that 243 00:11:58,151 --> 00:12:00,320 government shutdowns this far out from an election 244 00:12:00,387 --> 00:12:01,788 impact the election. Do you think this time could be 245 00:12:01,855 --> 00:12:04,291 different? >> I really don't know 246 00:12:04,358 --> 00:12:07,027 where this is going to end. Right. Are they going to 247 00:12:07,094 --> 00:12:09,229 continue it? And because again, Donald Trump kind of 248 00:12:09,296 --> 00:12:11,999 likes parts of this, as you said. I mean, he's already 249 00:12:12,065 --> 00:12:14,201 been acting unilaterally. And unfortunately, the 250 00:12:14,268 --> 00:12:16,036 Republican majorities in the House and the Senate 251 00:12:16,103 --> 00:12:19,173 have allowed him to do that. Article one of the 252 00:12:19,239 --> 00:12:21,341 Constitution gives us the power of the purse, but 253 00:12:21,408 --> 00:12:23,544 he's stealing funds that we've approved. The 254 00:12:23,610 --> 00:12:27,214 Constitution gives the Congress only emergency 255 00:12:27,281 --> 00:12:29,983 but he's getting away with it. So this is anything but 256 00:12:30,050 --> 00:12:33,187 normal times, I think. You know, when you watch the 257 00:12:33,253 --> 00:12:36,356 East wing of the Capitol being demolished right now, 258 00:12:36,423 --> 00:12:39,259 see what he's doing to democracy. Right. He's 259 00:12:39,326 --> 00:12:41,628 literally demolishing the institutions that we 260 00:12:41,695 --> 00:12:45,232 understand fundamentally. many people last weekend at 261 00:12:45,299 --> 00:12:48,202 the no rally, 7 million people speaking out. I just 262 00:12:48,268 --> 00:12:51,371 think these are times that are hard for anyone to give 263 00:12:51,438 --> 00:12:53,307 you honest predictions. >> So finally, the consumer 264 00:12:53,373 --> 00:12:56,009 price index came out today. It's at 3%. It's an 265 00:12:56,076 --> 00:12:59,246 increase year over year. It's tariffs right. 266 00:12:59,313 --> 00:13:02,349 >> Trump's tariff taxes are absolutely affecting us. 267 00:13:02,416 --> 00:13:04,818 We're all paying for that messiness. And it just 268 00:13:04,885 --> 00:13:07,221 needs to stop. >> All right. Congressman 269 00:13:07,287 --> 00:13:09,923 Pocan thanks for your time. >> Sure. Thank you. 270 00:13:09,990 --> 00:13:13,193 >> UW-Madison has announced a new program designed to 271 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:15,996 foster and strengthen civil dialog across the 272 00:13:16,063 --> 00:13:20,200 university. It's called the Wisconsin Exchange 273 00:13:20,267 --> 00:13:23,003 joining us now to talk about the program is 274 00:13:23,070 --> 00:13:25,105 Chancellor Jennifer Mnookin. Thanks for your time today. 275 00:13:25,172 --> 00:13:28,208 >> Thanks for having me. >> So so what is the 276 00:13:28,275 --> 00:13:31,712 Wisconsin Exchange? is a collection of programs 277 00:13:31,778 --> 00:13:34,548 and opportunities for students, as well as 278 00:13:34,615 --> 00:13:38,151 faculty and staff, to gain experience in engaging with 279 00:13:38,218 --> 00:13:40,320 each other across their differences, whether those 280 00:13:40,387 --> 00:13:43,590 differences come as differences in background 281 00:13:43,657 --> 00:13:47,027 or identity or viewpoint and perspective. We already 282 00:13:47,094 --> 00:13:49,496 had a number of things happening on campus around 283 00:13:49,563 --> 00:13:52,633 this, but we wanted to to grow those further because 284 00:13:52,699 --> 00:13:55,369 I think it's a significant priority for our campus and 285 00:13:55,435 --> 00:13:57,504 frankly, for our nation. >> So Republicans have 286 00:13:57,571 --> 00:14:00,140 criticized UW-Madison for liberal professors. Making 287 00:14:00,207 --> 00:14:02,376 young conservatives feel uncomfortable on campus. Is 288 00:14:02,442 --> 00:14:05,045 this a response to those types of complaints? 289 00:14:05,112 --> 00:14:07,080 >> This is actually something that I think is 290 00:14:07,147 --> 00:14:09,750 deeper and far broader. I think that universities are 291 00:14:09,816 --> 00:14:11,919 perfect places for people to learn from, and to learn 292 00:14:11,985 --> 00:14:15,088 to talk to people who experience the world 293 00:14:15,155 --> 00:14:17,224 differently from the way that they do. That goes all 294 00:14:17,291 --> 00:14:20,894 the way back to sifting and winnowing a core idea at 295 00:14:20,961 --> 00:14:24,198 UW-Madison. And I think we do a fair amount of that 296 00:14:24,264 --> 00:14:27,100 already. And I also think there are opportunities to 297 00:14:27,167 --> 00:14:30,237 be more intentional about it, and also to give people 298 00:14:30,304 --> 00:14:34,408 practice and skills. Many people these days live in 299 00:14:34,474 --> 00:14:37,611 relatively siloed environments in terms of 300 00:14:37,678 --> 00:14:40,280 viewpoint and perspective, and we want people to get 301 00:14:40,347 --> 00:14:43,150 out of their silos and have the experience of learning 302 00:14:43,217 --> 00:14:46,119 from and talking to each other. 303 00:14:47,554 --> 00:14:50,123 materials. It doesn't look requirement, not like a 304 00:14:50,190 --> 00:14:52,793 freshman class. So how do you get the people that may 305 00:14:52,860 --> 00:14:55,195 need this the most to actually buy into it? 306 00:14:55,262 --> 00:14:57,130 >> That's a fair question, and I think we're frankly 307 00:14:57,197 --> 00:14:59,433 starting out with a coalition of the willing. 308 00:14:59,499 --> 00:15:01,535 We're starting out with people who are interested 309 00:15:01,602 --> 00:15:04,605 in doing this. It won't reach everybody on our very 310 00:15:04,671 --> 00:15:07,140 large, pluralistic campus from the get go. We already 311 00:15:07,207 --> 00:15:10,677 have programs like the deliberation dinners, where 312 00:15:10,744 --> 00:15:14,248 375 of our undergraduates are raising their hands to 313 00:15:14,314 --> 00:15:17,084 come together for six dinners across the year in 314 00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:20,454 groups of ten that are selected for viewpoint 315 00:15:20,521 --> 00:15:23,290 diversity, to gain skill and practice. In talking 316 00:15:23,357 --> 00:15:26,193 about pretty contentious issues and learning that 317 00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:29,096 you can learn from people who see the world very 318 00:15:29,162 --> 00:15:31,832 differently from themselves, that's grown over the past 319 00:15:31,899 --> 00:15:34,368 couple of years each year. And in fact, we had more 320 00:15:34,434 --> 00:15:36,103 people who wanted to participate this year than 321 00:15:36,170 --> 00:15:39,573 we could than we could include. And these 322 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,477 additional programs will at first be for those who are 323 00:15:43,544 --> 00:15:47,047 interested, I hope down the road that we might be able 324 00:15:47,114 --> 00:15:49,650 to grow some trainings in other spaces around the 325 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:52,986 university and reach even more students, as well as 326 00:15:53,053 --> 00:15:55,055 faculty and staff. >> So in recent years, 327 00:15:55,122 --> 00:15:57,925 we've seen student protesters take over 328 00:15:57,991 --> 00:16:00,127 over Gaza. We've seen conservative groups book 329 00:16:00,194 --> 00:16:03,063 speakers accused of hate speech. How would this 330 00:16:03,130 --> 00:16:04,965 program deal with those types of environments? 331 00:16:05,032 --> 00:16:08,235 >> Well, I mean, in some ways, protest is part of 332 00:16:08,302 --> 00:16:10,270 free speech. It's absolutely permitted under 333 00:16:10,337 --> 00:16:12,940 the First Amendment that you can also have time, 334 00:16:13,006 --> 00:16:16,577 space, time, place and manner rules that limit it. 335 00:16:16,643 --> 00:16:19,479 Similarly, we've had many speakers from across the 336 00:16:19,546 --> 00:16:21,248 political spectrum, including very conservative 337 00:16:21,315 --> 00:16:24,218 speakers, as well as very left leaning ones who've 338 00:16:24,284 --> 00:16:27,321 come to campus and shared their views with people who 339 00:16:27,387 --> 00:16:29,489 are interested in hearing from them without incident. 340 00:16:29,556 --> 00:16:32,993 I think that is absolutely part of what needs to 341 00:16:33,060 --> 00:16:36,196 happen on a university campus. We also need more 342 00:16:36,263 --> 00:16:39,099 opportunities for people who disagree with each 343 00:16:39,166 --> 00:16:43,303 other to show that they can do that diplomatically, 344 00:16:43,370 --> 00:16:47,140 respectfully, not necessarily succeeding in 345 00:16:47,207 --> 00:16:51,245 changing each other's mind. But but when you hear from 346 00:16:51,311 --> 00:16:53,480 someone with a different point of view, sometimes it 347 00:16:53,547 --> 00:16:56,149 does change your mind. Other times it sharpens and 348 00:16:56,216 --> 00:16:59,987 focuses your own arguments. I hear that just before me 349 00:17:00,053 --> 00:17:03,223 on this show, you had two congressmen from opposite 350 00:17:03,290 --> 00:17:05,325 sides of the aisle talking to each other. That's a 351 00:17:05,392 --> 00:17:07,327 perfect example. >> So in August, the 352 00:17:07,394 --> 00:17:10,030 university lost a free speech case in a federal 353 00:17:10,097 --> 00:17:12,065 court filed by a woman who said the UW was blocking 354 00:17:12,132 --> 00:17:15,169 her speech on social media channels. How does 355 00:17:15,235 --> 00:17:17,938 moderation of speech on social media work with 356 00:17:18,005 --> 00:17:20,407 civil discourse in the public space? Because often 357 00:17:20,474 --> 00:17:23,277 that speech is overlapping. >> Yeah. I mean, I think 358 00:17:23,343 --> 00:17:27,881 that we need to have robust dialog in all the different 359 00:17:27,948 --> 00:17:30,017 spaces that are available. I don't, frankly, find that 360 00:17:30,083 --> 00:17:34,688 social media is the most useful or valuable space 361 00:17:34,755 --> 00:17:38,125 for having civic engagement across our differences. I 362 00:17:38,192 --> 00:17:42,696 think that often on social media, people are more 363 00:17:42,763 --> 00:17:46,066 interested in in, in supporting their existing 364 00:17:46,133 --> 00:17:48,969 point of view, rather than bringing curiosity and 365 00:17:49,036 --> 00:17:51,004 compassion to their engagement with one another. 366 00:17:51,071 --> 00:17:53,540 So I don't see this initiative as terribly 367 00:17:53,607 --> 00:17:56,009 connected to the social media space of it all. It's 368 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:59,079 much more about in real life and perhaps virtually 369 00:17:59,146 --> 00:18:03,617 giving people opportunities to be part of conversations. 370 00:18:03,684 --> 00:18:05,319 >> All right, Chancellor Mnookin, thanks for your 371 00:18:05,385 --> 00:18:07,120 time today. >> Thank you so much for 372 00:18:07,187 --> 00:18:08,856 having me. [MUSIC] 373 00:18:08,922 --> 00:18:12,159 >> We wanted to ask the Chancellor about the state 374 00:18:12,226 --> 00:18:14,428 of the UW athletic department and head 375 00:18:14,494 --> 00:18:16,096 football coach, Luke Fickell. Chancellor Mnookin 376 00:18:16,163 --> 00:18:18,899 wanted to keep the focus on this new initiative, but 377 00:18:18,966 --> 00:18:21,869 promised to return to our set and talk about 378 00:18:21,935 --> 00:18:26,039 athletics at a future date. In dental news, at more 379 00:18:26,106 --> 00:18:28,275 than 100 sites across the state, from Mount Pleasant 380 00:18:28,342 --> 00:18:31,111 to Superior, people are dealing with water 381 00:18:31,178 --> 00:18:33,146 contaminated with the man made chemicals known as 382 00:18:33,213 --> 00:18:35,983 PFAS. Here and now. Reporter Murv Seymour went 383 00:18:36,049 --> 00:18:38,118 to the Northwoods community of Stella, which is 384 00:18:38,185 --> 00:18:41,288 currently under review for a Superfund designation 385 00:18:41,355 --> 00:18:43,090 where residents put health and environmental officials 386 00:18:43,156 --> 00:18:46,627 on the hot seat. >> Stella is a farming 387 00:18:48,028 --> 00:18:50,597 community. town of Stella. 388 00:18:52,566 --> 00:18:55,169 some individuals out here. >> It's lakes, it's 389 00:18:55,235 --> 00:18:58,138 wildlife, the people. >> Everybody is a neighbor 390 00:18:58,205 --> 00:19:00,340 and everybody knows everybody. 391 00:19:00,407 --> 00:19:02,876 reasons people move here. >> It's a very caring 392 00:19:02,943 --> 00:19:05,846 community. locals never leave. 393 00:19:05,913 --> 00:19:07,848 >> When somebody needs something out here, 394 00:19:07,915 --> 00:19:10,584 everybody shows up. Obviously, it's a good 395 00:19:10,651 --> 00:19:13,720 turnout. have shown up at Stella 396 00:19:13,787 --> 00:19:15,856 Hall filling the parking lot and roadsides. 397 00:19:15,923 --> 00:19:18,559 >> We're all here for the same reason. 398 00:19:18,625 --> 00:19:20,160 >> Inside, they fill nearly every seat as they stand 399 00:19:20,227 --> 00:19:22,896 together listening. Because tonight they need answers 400 00:19:22,963 --> 00:19:25,933 from town, state and federal officials about 401 00:19:25,999 --> 00:19:28,402 their precious lakes and wildlife that are 402 00:19:28,468 --> 00:19:32,973 contaminated with man made chemicals known as PFAS. 403 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,043 They're here to work with us. They're here to answer 404 00:19:36,109 --> 00:19:38,712 our questions. Casey Crump lives in this 405 00:19:38,779 --> 00:19:41,348 community. >> I love the community. I 406 00:19:41,415 --> 00:19:43,550 love the people. >> He has for almost 25 407 00:19:43,617 --> 00:19:46,353 years. >> These are neighbors, 408 00:19:46,420 --> 00:19:49,289 their friends. this information session 409 00:19:49,356 --> 00:19:51,124 together to provide his community and himself with 410 00:19:51,191 --> 00:19:54,928 the first update in almost two years on fact. 411 00:19:54,995 --> 00:19:58,065 >> We're learning more and more. 412 00:19:58,131 --> 00:20:01,168 how contaminated are the water and ground, whose 413 00:20:01,235 --> 00:20:04,805 what's the impact on people, wildlife, crops and 414 00:20:04,872 --> 00:20:07,975 property values. Casey's quest for answers is 415 00:20:08,041 --> 00:20:11,044 personal. but now it's even more 416 00:20:11,111 --> 00:20:12,913 personal. >> Like everyone else here. 417 00:20:12,980 --> 00:20:15,682 >> We have permanent residents that live around 418 00:20:15,749 --> 00:20:17,518 it, and we have vacationers that come up during the 419 00:20:17,584 --> 00:20:19,720 summer. of questions. 420 00:20:20,354 --> 00:20:23,257 >> What does PFAS do to us when we have it in our body? 421 00:20:23,323 --> 00:20:26,894 And then also, how can we find out if we do have it 422 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,329 in our body? If my well's been tested positive and 423 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,965 I've been drinking this well for 30 years, you know, 424 00:20:32,032 --> 00:20:35,369 do I have it in my body? How can we find out about 425 00:20:35,435 --> 00:20:38,672 that? three times the recommended 426 00:20:39,506 --> 00:20:41,475 levels. The town is in the early assessment phase of 427 00:20:41,542 --> 00:20:43,177 being designated a federal Superfund site. Superfund 428 00:20:43,243 --> 00:20:46,780 status would mean federal funds and an expedited 429 00:20:46,847 --> 00:20:49,816 cleanup process. Behind Town Hall sits one of many 430 00:20:49,883 --> 00:20:52,819 EPA and DNR groundwater testing sites. Water 431 00:20:52,886 --> 00:20:55,155 samples taken from various wells like this are part of 432 00:20:55,222 --> 00:20:57,858 the lengthy assessment process, which could take 433 00:20:57,925 --> 00:21:01,161 decades. For now, the DNR tells people within five 434 00:21:01,228 --> 00:21:03,130 miles of Stella to limit their consumption of deer 435 00:21:03,197 --> 00:21:06,066 meat to one meal per month, and they've been told not 436 00:21:06,133 --> 00:21:09,169 to eat deer liver at all. And they shouldn't eat any 437 00:21:09,236 --> 00:21:12,005 fish from almost a dozen different lakes in the area, 438 00:21:12,072 --> 00:21:15,742 which includes fish and all of the lakes that make up 439 00:21:15,809 --> 00:21:19,213 the heavily populated and popular Moen Lake Chain. 440 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:22,216 Nearby. Snowden Lake is on the list, too. At the edge 441 00:21:22,282 --> 00:21:25,385 of the highway, 50 yards from shore, you'll find a 442 00:21:25,452 --> 00:21:28,222 wooden gate that leads down towards the lake with a 443 00:21:28,288 --> 00:21:29,890 sign that warns people about the contaminated lake 444 00:21:29,957 --> 00:21:33,260 water and the risks of being exposed to it from 445 00:21:33,327 --> 00:21:36,997 swimming, fishing, or ingesting it. 446 00:21:37,064 --> 00:21:39,933 levels stay the same or are they getting worse or 447 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,903 getting better? panel takes questions from 448 00:21:42,970 --> 00:21:45,205 people who have written them on index cards. 449 00:21:45,272 --> 00:21:49,276 >> The rumor is that there were some illegal dumping 450 00:21:49,343 --> 00:21:52,980 that caused this. Is that true or not true? 451 00:21:53,046 --> 00:21:55,449 >> From the third row, retired nurse Jean Peterson, 452 00:21:55,516 --> 00:21:58,018 who lives on the first lake portion of the Moen Lake 453 00:21:58,085 --> 00:22:01,221 Chain, pushes for the answers she needs. 454 00:22:01,288 --> 00:22:04,124 >> I just believe knowledge is power. 455 00:22:04,191 --> 00:22:07,160 >> The DNR confirms that former owners of the paper 456 00:22:07,227 --> 00:22:10,197 mill, now called Ahlstrom and Wausau Paper, are the 457 00:22:10,264 --> 00:22:13,000 primary PFAS polluters in the area. They've notified 458 00:22:13,066 --> 00:22:15,469 both companies and their previous owners, requiring 459 00:22:15,536 --> 00:22:19,573 them to fund and clean up the contamination. In an 460 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:20,874 email statement in Ahlstrom, spokesperson tells me 461 00:22:20,941 --> 00:22:23,143 they've received the notification and they're 462 00:22:23,210 --> 00:22:25,379 carefully reviewing it. With the recent site 463 00:22:25,445 --> 00:22:27,848 inspection report. The statement goes on to say, 464 00:22:27,915 --> 00:22:31,618 we continue to actively engage as a partner with 465 00:22:31,685 --> 00:22:36,156 the DNR, EPA and other agencies. Less than a mile 466 00:22:38,025 --> 00:22:40,394 from Jean Peterson's home on the shores of Third Lake 467 00:22:40,460 --> 00:22:44,464 and the other lakes, all is pretty quiet on shore and 468 00:22:44,531 --> 00:22:46,834 on the water. Aside from a few boaters fishing and 469 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,236 cruising the lake. One day after that community 470 00:22:49,303 --> 00:22:51,672 meeting, I meet Jean Peterson at the Oneida 471 00:22:51,738 --> 00:22:55,042 County Courthouse in Rhinelander. 472 00:22:55,108 --> 00:22:57,044 a matter of time before it was us. 473 00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:59,980 >> She candidly tells me she worries about how PFAS 474 00:23:00,047 --> 00:23:02,616 contamination will impact her health, and when the 475 00:23:02,683 --> 00:23:04,918 time comes, the potential resale value of her home. 476 00:23:04,985 --> 00:23:08,355 >> We had our well tested about 12 months ago, had 477 00:23:08,422 --> 00:23:12,192 never heard of PFAS at that time, but we had our well 478 00:23:12,259 --> 00:23:15,329 tested just in general and it came back fine. And we 479 00:23:15,395 --> 00:23:18,365 drink bottled water. >> According to the DNR, 480 00:23:18,432 --> 00:23:21,134 lengthy exposure to certain types of PFAS can lead to 481 00:23:21,201 --> 00:23:24,371 an increased risk of cancer, developmental delays, 482 00:23:24,438 --> 00:23:26,974 thyroid and heart issues, infertility and low birth 483 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,143 weights in infants. Residents are encouraged to 484 00:23:30,210 --> 00:23:33,146 use bottled water or treat water that they consume. 485 00:23:33,213 --> 00:23:37,150 >> First visit DNR, gov and search PFAS. 486 00:23:37,217 --> 00:23:40,020 >> The DNR has created an interactive website where 487 00:23:40,087 --> 00:23:43,056 people can search and learn if they're in one of the 488 00:23:43,123 --> 00:23:44,925 PFAS contaminated zones in Wisconsin. 489 00:23:44,992 --> 00:23:48,128 >> And around the map. To learn about PFAS in your 490 00:23:48,195 --> 00:23:51,064 area or search an address in the box above. 491 00:23:51,131 --> 00:23:53,967 >> You can zero in on your own address or neighborhood 492 00:23:54,034 --> 00:23:57,371 to get details on testing and its results. Jean 493 00:23:57,437 --> 00:23:58,939 Peterson and others learned there are thousands of 494 00:23:59,006 --> 00:24:01,708 types of man made PFAS in things like nonstick 495 00:24:01,775 --> 00:24:05,379 cookware, plastic wrappings, microwave popcorn bags, 496 00:24:05,445 --> 00:24:07,915 waterproof clothing and foam commonly used in 497 00:24:07,981 --> 00:24:11,485 airport fire trucks. >> I have a spring on my 498 00:24:11,552 --> 00:24:13,320 land. What do I need to do to get it tested. 499 00:24:13,387 --> 00:24:16,657 >> At that community town hall? At times, each answer 500 00:24:16,723 --> 00:24:20,160 leads to more questions. on my fields for years and 501 00:24:20,227 --> 00:24:23,430 years and years. I lived on that field. I grow 502 00:24:23,497 --> 00:24:25,532 vegetables in my garden, which turned out really 503 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:29,169 good this year. But now I have concerns about 504 00:24:29,236 --> 00:24:32,072 consuming those vegetables because we water with our 505 00:24:32,139 --> 00:24:35,442 well water. We, you know, we we planted them in the 506 00:24:35,509 --> 00:24:38,946 soil that that our property sits on. And in addition to 507 00:24:39,012 --> 00:24:42,249 that, I least out my land. And so corn is grown on 508 00:24:42,316 --> 00:24:44,952 that land. I think that corn goes to feed cattle 509 00:24:45,018 --> 00:24:46,820 and livestock. Are the cattle in livestock now 510 00:24:46,887 --> 00:24:50,624 consuming that corn? >> What is the plan for 511 00:24:50,691 --> 00:24:52,893 when the $125 million that has been sitting there year 512 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:57,331 one, year two unspent. >> In Madison, state 513 00:24:57,397 --> 00:25:00,200 lawmakers have set aside $125 million to help pay 514 00:25:00,267 --> 00:25:03,036 for cleaning up PFAS contaminated sites across 515 00:25:03,103 --> 00:25:05,806 the state, a drop in the bucket of what will be 516 00:25:05,873 --> 00:25:09,209 needed. perfect wording for that, 517 00:25:09,276 --> 00:25:11,011 so it includes all the landowners that actually 518 00:25:11,078 --> 00:25:13,881 are innocent. >> For now, the funds are 519 00:25:13,947 --> 00:25:16,350 on hold as lawmakers hash out language in the bill 520 00:25:16,416 --> 00:25:18,519 that protects the environment and protects 521 00:25:18,585 --> 00:25:20,354 farmers, families and business owners from 522 00:25:20,420 --> 00:25:23,390 liability and the anticipated astronomical 523 00:25:23,457 --> 00:25:26,026 costs of cleanup. >> Wisconsin has done an 524 00:25:26,093 --> 00:25:29,863 excellent job under the spills law for decades, and 525 00:25:29,930 --> 00:25:33,634 but it does need funding. >> Community groups 526 00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:35,102 representing municipalities and environmental groups 527 00:25:35,169 --> 00:25:38,272 from all over the state came here to weigh in on 528 00:25:38,338 --> 00:25:40,240 the conversation. >> You don't have to treat 529 00:25:40,307 --> 00:25:43,043 the water, to do your laundry, to do your dishes, 530 00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:45,546 to flush your toilet. But you should be treating the 531 00:25:45,612 --> 00:25:47,848 water that you're using for food preparation and for 532 00:25:47,915 --> 00:25:51,018 drinking water. situation, the state is 533 00:25:51,084 --> 00:25:53,287 footing the bill to test and redrill some private 534 00:25:53,353 --> 00:25:56,123 wells. People are already drinking bottled water and 535 00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:59,059 some are paying for the testing of their own wells, 536 00:25:59,126 --> 00:26:00,961 something Casey Crump believes his small 537 00:26:01,028 --> 00:26:03,864 community might have to do if they want the water 538 00:26:03,931 --> 00:26:07,234 quality here to get better before it gets worse. 539 00:26:07,301 --> 00:26:10,003 >> We're willing to step up and we're willing to do 540 00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:12,072 what we need to do, but we still want answers. 541 00:26:12,139 --> 00:26:14,975 >> Reporting from Stella for here. Now I'm Murv 542 00:26:15,042 --> 00:26:17,678 Seymour. >> For more on this and 543 00:26:17,744 --> 00:26:20,047 other issues facing Wisconsin, visit our 544 00:26:20,113 --> 00:26:23,450 website at PBS Wisconsin and click on the news tab. 545 00:26:23,517 --> 00:26:26,220 That is our program for tonight. Frederica will be 546 00:26:26,286 --> 00:26:29,656 back next week. I'm Zac Schultz have a great 547 00:26:29,723 --> 00:26:33,060 weekend. >> Funding for "Here& Now" 548 00:26:45,138 --> 00:26:48,242 is provided by the Focus Fund for Journalism and 549 00:26:48,308 --> 00:26:50,777 Friends of PBS Wisconsin.