1
00:00:01,034 --> 00:00:05,706
The following program is a
PBS Wisconsin original

2
00:00:09,977 --> 00:00:12,412
production.
>> We've issued a statewide

3
00:00:12,479 --> 00:00:16,083
standing medical order that
allows pharmacists to

4
00:00:16,149 --> 00:00:18,118
provide the Covid 19
vaccine to those who want

5
00:00:18,185 --> 00:00:21,088
it, without requiring a
prescription from a

6
00:00:21,154 --> 00:00:25,125
clinical provider.
medical officer issues a

7
00:00:25,192 --> 00:00:28,295
prescription for all
Wisconsinites to get their

8
00:00:28,362 --> 00:00:30,597
Covid vaccine.
[MUSIC]

9
00:00:31,298 --> 00:00:34,034
guidance as vaccine
hesitation spreads.

10
00:00:34,101 --> 00:00:37,104
[MUSIC]
I'm Frederica Freyberg

11
00:00:37,671 --> 00:00:41,375
tonight on "Here& Now". The
case for and against an oil

12
00:00:41,441 --> 00:00:45,179
pipeline reroute near
tribal lands. Fallout from

13
00:00:45,245 --> 00:00:48,315
comments about Charlie
Kirk's assassination

14
00:00:48,382 --> 00:00:51,952
continue to ricochet. But
college students are still

15
00:00:52,019 --> 00:00:54,354
trying to bridge divides.
[MUSIC]

16
00:00:54,421 --> 00:00:57,457
And Republican lawmakers
want public employees to

17
00:00:57,524 --> 00:01:01,261
return to office buildings.
It's "Here& Now" for

18
00:01:01,328 --> 00:01:03,730
September 19th.
[MUSIC]

19
00:01:03,797 --> 00:01:07,201
>> Funding for Here and Now
is provided by the Focus

20
00:01:07,267 --> 00:01:11,939
Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

21
00:01:18,545 --> 00:01:21,448
>> Wisconsin health
officials want to make sure

22
00:01:21,515 --> 00:01:25,285
anyone who wants to get an
updated Covid 19 vaccine

23
00:01:25,352 --> 00:01:29,656
can. That's why the state's
top epidemiologist has

24
00:01:29,723 --> 00:01:32,259
issued a standing medical
order after a federal

25
00:01:32,326 --> 00:01:35,429
vaccine panel Friday
declined to recommend Covid

26
00:01:35,495 --> 00:01:39,833
19 vaccines for all
Americans. The state order

27
00:01:40,534 --> 00:01:43,604
coincides with guidance
from the Commissioner of

28
00:01:43,670 --> 00:01:47,040
Insurance, saying health
plans should cover the cost.

29
00:01:47,107 --> 00:01:50,077
>> In the past, our
nation's medical

30
00:01:50,143 --> 00:01:52,246
associations and our
nation's federal health

31
00:01:52,312 --> 00:01:55,749
agencies who review the
same data have issued

32
00:01:55,816 --> 00:01:59,086
recommendations that align
with one another. Today,

33
00:01:59,152 --> 00:02:02,689
that's not the case. In the
past several months,

34
00:02:02,756 --> 00:02:06,593
leaders at federal agencies
have made policy decisions

35
00:02:06,660 --> 00:02:10,697
and issued recommendations
that aren't supported by or

36
00:02:10,764 --> 00:02:14,201
directly contradict
scientific consensus. These

37
00:02:14,268 --> 00:02:16,637
decisions might may result
in limited access to the

38
00:02:16,703 --> 00:02:20,374
Covid 19 vaccine, which
scientific studies have

39
00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,676
continuously showed lower
the risk of illness,

40
00:02:22,743 --> 00:02:25,112
hospitalization and death
for people who choose to

41
00:02:25,179 --> 00:02:28,415
get them.
controversy over the oil

42
00:02:29,383 --> 00:02:31,785
and gas pipeline through
northern Wisconsin went

43
00:02:31,852 --> 00:02:36,156
before the public this week
during the third of four

44
00:02:36,223 --> 00:02:38,859
contested case hearings
across the state. In

45
00:02:38,926 --> 00:02:42,629
Ashland, the bad River Band
of Lake Superior Chippewa

46
00:02:42,696 --> 00:02:45,199
presented witnesses in
their challenge of the

47
00:02:45,265 --> 00:02:49,303
permits the Wisconsin DNR
granted to Canadian

48
00:02:49,369 --> 00:02:53,841
Enbridge Energy Inc. for a
41 mile reroute of the

49
00:02:54,741 --> 00:02:59,346
pipeline. Operational since
1953. Line five, as it's

50
00:02:59,413 --> 00:03:03,350
known, carries 23 million
gallons a day from Superior

51
00:03:03,417 --> 00:03:08,355
to Ontario. The tribe had
sued to remove the pipeline

52
00:03:08,422 --> 00:03:12,459
from its reservation lands
after easements expired.

53
00:03:12,526 --> 00:03:15,128
And in 2020, Enbridge
proposed rerouting part of

54
00:03:15,195 --> 00:03:19,766
the line around tribal
lands. Late last year, the

55
00:03:20,300 --> 00:03:24,304
DNR granted permits for
pipeline construction that

56
00:03:24,371 --> 00:03:27,241
impacts wetlands and
waterways, as well as

57
00:03:27,307 --> 00:03:29,376
granting permits to
maintain erosion control

58
00:03:29,443 --> 00:03:33,614
and water quality in the
midst of construction. That

59
00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,783
includes blasting, bedrock
and drilling. The tribe and

60
00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:40,187
environmental groups
challenged those permits,

61
00:03:40,254 --> 00:03:43,223
resulting in the court
ordered public hearings.

62
00:03:43,290 --> 00:03:46,226
Bad River tribal chairman,
Robert Blanchard, was the

63
00:03:46,293 --> 00:03:49,897
first to take the stand.
And chairman, thanks very

64
00:03:49,963 --> 00:03:52,132
much for being here.
>> Thank you for having me.

65
00:03:52,199 --> 00:03:55,335
>> So what did you most
want the judge to know

66
00:03:55,402 --> 00:03:59,339
about the impacts of line
five and its reroute around

67
00:03:59,406 --> 00:04:03,443
the bad River reservation,
but through nearby wetlands

68
00:04:03,510 --> 00:04:06,246
and wetlands, what did you
most want the judge to know

69
00:04:06,313 --> 00:04:10,450
about those impacts?
>> So reroute is going

70
00:04:10,517 --> 00:04:13,554
within the ceded
territories of of of the

71
00:04:13,620 --> 00:04:18,091
the band. And impact is
going to be over 100 acres

72
00:04:18,859 --> 00:04:23,997
of wetlands, which, you
know, will get disturbed.

73
00:04:24,064 --> 00:04:28,969
30 some acres of that will
not be usable again through

74
00:04:30,938 --> 00:04:36,410
horizontal direct drilling,
blasting, which is going to,

75
00:04:37,211 --> 00:04:40,247
you know, a lot of it's
going to impact our our

76
00:04:40,314 --> 00:04:44,585
water resources.
>> Now, I know, I know, the

77
00:04:44,651 --> 00:04:49,089
tribe wanted the pipeline
removed from your land. Why

78
00:04:49,156 --> 00:04:52,893
isn't rerouting it around
the reservation proper

79
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,096
enough?
>> Well, I will do is shift

80
00:04:57,564 --> 00:05:00,501
the risk upstream, exposing
more of the environment to

81
00:05:00,567 --> 00:05:04,471
be put at at at risk than
than what is now. But, you

82
00:05:04,538 --> 00:05:09,343
know, like I said before,
we have ceded territories

83
00:05:09,409 --> 00:05:12,279
hunting and fishing and
gathering of of medicines

84
00:05:12,346 --> 00:05:16,617
and other other stuff. So I
mean that that's just going

85
00:05:16,683 --> 00:05:19,386
it's just moving the
problem upstream. You know,

86
00:05:19,453 --> 00:05:22,389
we're we'll be downstream
from that. And if something

87
00:05:22,456 --> 00:05:26,226
were to happen, you know,
it's really impact us as

88
00:05:26,293 --> 00:05:29,129
people and our way of life.
>> Circling back to

89
00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:33,000
something you spoke to a
moment ago during your

90
00:05:33,066 --> 00:05:37,304
testimony, you spoke about
the wild rice harvest. Why

91
00:05:37,371 --> 00:05:41,742
is that? And hunting and
fishing rights you hold. So

92
00:05:41,808 --> 00:05:45,179
key to your community?
>> Well, we've been

93
00:05:45,245 --> 00:05:48,749
harvesting wild rice on in
the Sokaogon Streu's for

94
00:05:48,815 --> 00:05:53,620
over 100 years. You know,
my grandparents brought us

95
00:05:53,687 --> 00:05:57,357
harvested down there, and
they they made rice camps

96
00:05:57,424 --> 00:06:01,395
down there. And, you know,
so that that's near and

97
00:06:01,461 --> 00:06:06,500
dear to my heart and a lot
of other people also. But.

98
00:06:06,567 --> 00:06:10,404
It identifies us as, as
people, you know, that that

99
00:06:10,470 --> 00:06:14,675
we were brought here for a
reason. And, and one of the

100
00:06:14,741 --> 00:06:17,911
reasons is that to go where
the food grows on the water,

101
00:06:17,978 --> 00:06:22,382
and that was the wild rice,
and that is quite dear to

102
00:06:22,449 --> 00:06:25,552
us. And as far as other
things, hunting, fishing

103
00:06:25,619 --> 00:06:28,255
and gathering, you know,
there's a lot of people

104
00:06:28,322 --> 00:06:31,458
today that that use that
resource to provide and put

105
00:06:31,525 --> 00:06:34,094
food on the table for their
families. So it's very

106
00:06:34,161 --> 00:06:37,231
important to us.
>> Why are the waters and

107
00:06:37,297 --> 00:06:41,768
the land so important to
the protection of those

108
00:06:42,736 --> 00:06:45,973
rights?
>> Well, we also feel that,

109
00:06:46,573 --> 00:06:50,110
you know, everything out
there is sacred. You know,

110
00:06:50,177 --> 00:06:54,581
we we we we use that that
those resources. And when

111
00:06:54,648 --> 00:06:58,218
we go and harvest and we go
hunting or fishing, we take

112
00:06:58,285 --> 00:07:02,756
only what we need to do for
our families. So and we

113
00:07:03,590 --> 00:07:06,360
also believe that, you know,
that everything out there

114
00:07:06,426 --> 00:07:08,962
has a spirit. Every living
thing out there has a

115
00:07:09,029 --> 00:07:11,365
spirit, you know? And
that's what we're

116
00:07:11,431 --> 00:07:13,333
protecting is the spirit of
that medicine, the spirit

117
00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,037
of that wild rice and the
spirit of those waters and

118
00:07:17,104 --> 00:07:20,073
lands to be able for our
future generations, to be

119
00:07:20,140 --> 00:07:23,277
able to enjoy that.
>> For its part, Enbridge

120
00:07:23,343 --> 00:07:27,147
states that they have
learned what they do today

121
00:07:27,214 --> 00:07:31,552
impacts the next seven
generations. And it has

122
00:07:31,618 --> 00:07:33,387
that. It has a
responsibility to care for

123
00:07:33,453 --> 00:07:36,123
the land. What's your
response to that statement

124
00:07:36,190 --> 00:07:40,661
from the CEO of Enbridge?
>> Well, I don't think

125
00:07:40,727 --> 00:07:45,098
Enbridge really understands,
you know, the they look at

126
00:07:45,165 --> 00:07:48,769
it a lot different than we
do. You know. They're

127
00:07:48,836 --> 00:07:52,472
they're there for for
different reasons. And

128
00:07:52,539 --> 00:07:57,344
we're there to to protect
the land, truly protect the

129
00:07:57,411 --> 00:08:01,748
land and the resources.
>> Your Band River Band is

130
00:08:01,815 --> 00:08:05,319
fighting hard over this.
What will you do if the

131
00:08:05,385 --> 00:08:09,156
line five project is
allowed to proceed in this

132
00:08:09,223 --> 00:08:11,558
way?
>> Well, that's a that's

133
00:08:11,625 --> 00:08:15,462
the big question. We are
still trying to come up

134
00:08:15,529 --> 00:08:19,199
with some some answers, and
we're just going to keep

135
00:08:19,266 --> 00:08:21,134
moving forward and keep
fighting.

136
00:08:21,201 --> 00:08:23,937
>> We will be watching.
Chairman Robert Blanchard,

137
00:08:24,004 --> 00:08:27,674
thanks very much.
>> Thank you very much for

138
00:08:27,741 --> 00:08:30,177
having me.
>> Next week, Enbridge and

139
00:08:30,244 --> 00:08:33,480
the DNR will present their
cases in the fourth public

140
00:08:33,547 --> 00:08:36,617
hearing on the proposed
reroute of line five.

141
00:08:36,683 --> 00:08:40,153
Jennifer Smith is the
director of US tribal

142
00:08:40,220 --> 00:08:42,990
engagement for Enbridge.
She joins us now. And

143
00:08:43,056 --> 00:08:45,259
thanks very much for being
here.

144
00:08:45,325 --> 00:08:48,362
>> Thanks for having me.
>> So, as you know, the

145
00:08:48,428 --> 00:08:52,132
legal fight over line five,
as it's known, has been

146
00:08:52,199 --> 00:08:56,103
ongoing for years. Why is
it worth it to your company

147
00:08:56,170 --> 00:08:59,406
to persist?
>> Sure. So the project

148
00:09:00,607 --> 00:09:04,912
that we've proposed is
related to our line five

149
00:09:04,978 --> 00:09:08,749
pipeline. Line five is
critical for supplying the

150
00:09:08,815 --> 00:09:12,352
energy that our Midwest,
Great Lakes regions all

151
00:09:12,419 --> 00:09:16,156
rely on. Millions of us
every day are using the end

152
00:09:16,223 --> 00:09:19,293
products that line five is
transporting to ten

153
00:09:19,359 --> 00:09:21,795
different refineries. It's
providing natural gas

154
00:09:21,862 --> 00:09:25,666
liquids to other companies
that will extract the

155
00:09:25,732 --> 00:09:27,835
propane and deliver it to
the homes throughout the

156
00:09:27,901 --> 00:09:31,638
region. And so we have a
responsibility to make sure

157
00:09:31,705 --> 00:09:33,707
that we can continue to
safely deliver that energy

158
00:09:33,774 --> 00:09:38,245
that we're all relying on.
And the project we propose

159
00:09:38,312 --> 00:09:42,149
this project almost five
years ago, over four years,

160
00:09:42,216 --> 00:09:47,287
and initiated the project
permits, because this is in

161
00:09:47,354 --> 00:09:50,524
response to the Band River
Band request that we remove

162
00:09:50,591 --> 00:09:53,861
line five from the
reservation, which it

163
00:09:53,927 --> 00:09:57,397
currently crosses.
>> So your company has an

164
00:09:57,464 --> 00:10:01,001
indigenous reconciliation
action plan that includes

165
00:10:01,068 --> 00:10:03,070
acknowledging and
historical lack of

166
00:10:03,136 --> 00:10:07,407
inclusion of indigenous
people and their well being.

167
00:10:07,474 --> 00:10:11,311
Additionally, the Enbridge
CEO states, we have learned

168
00:10:11,378 --> 00:10:14,214
that what we do today
impacts the next seven

169
00:10:14,281 --> 00:10:17,384
generations, and we have a
responsibility, he says, to

170
00:10:17,451 --> 00:10:20,053
preserve and care for the
land. Learn from her

171
00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,056
original inhabitants,
inhabitants and move

172
00:10:23,123 --> 00:10:25,926
forward together in the
spirit of healing,

173
00:10:25,993 --> 00:10:30,097
reconciliation and
responsibilities seriously.

174
00:10:30,163 --> 00:10:34,701
So how does that statement
square with the pitched

175
00:10:34,768 --> 00:10:37,137
legal fight with the Bad
River over line five.

176
00:10:37,204 --> 00:10:40,407
>> In specific to the
Indigenous Reconciliation

177
00:10:40,474 --> 00:10:45,379
Action Plan? Our first plan
was issued in 2022 that we

178
00:10:46,413 --> 00:10:51,952
call it the Irap identified
22 tangible commitments and

179
00:10:52,019 --> 00:10:55,689
actions that we can take as
a company to try and work

180
00:10:55,756 --> 00:10:58,525
with tribal communities.
And since that time, you

181
00:10:58,592 --> 00:11:02,396
know, there have been a
number of successes to that

182
00:11:02,462 --> 00:11:06,300
in terms of, you know,
making sure that our tribal

183
00:11:06,366 --> 00:11:10,070
contractors, tribal
community members are able

184
00:11:10,137 --> 00:11:13,440
to work with Enbridge and
economically participate in

185
00:11:13,507 --> 00:11:17,344
what is it that we do? I
will point out that, you

186
00:11:17,411 --> 00:11:22,149
know, it was the band that
sued Enbridge back in 2019

187
00:11:22,216 --> 00:11:25,419
regarding line five
crossing the reservation.

188
00:11:25,485 --> 00:11:29,456
And so even with, you know,
we are full steam ahead on

189
00:11:29,523 --> 00:11:32,626
this project, we fully
expect to see the permits

190
00:11:32,693 --> 00:11:35,262
get reaffirmed. But at the
same time, we we want to

191
00:11:35,329 --> 00:11:38,799
work with the Band River
Band and tribal community

192
00:11:38,866 --> 00:11:41,235
to we'd rather work
together.

193
00:11:41,301 --> 00:11:44,471
>> How do you respond to
the concerns from those

194
00:11:44,538 --> 00:11:47,941
challenging the permit that
a pipeline spill could

195
00:11:48,008 --> 00:11:50,511
impact the tribal
communities very way of

196
00:11:50,577 --> 00:11:54,982
life? That depends on clean
water and wetlands for food

197
00:11:55,048 --> 00:11:57,518
sources?
>> First of all, I'll say

198
00:11:57,584 --> 00:12:01,922
we all depend on clean
water as humans, and so we

199
00:12:02,589 --> 00:12:06,894
all have a vested interest
in safety and environmental

200
00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,264
protection. You know, we
are operating these

201
00:12:10,330 --> 00:12:12,799
pipelines. There are
hundreds of thousands of

202
00:12:12,866 --> 00:12:15,702
miles of pipelines across
the US that operate every

203
00:12:15,769 --> 00:12:19,339
day quietly, safely. We
don't hear about them. And

204
00:12:19,406 --> 00:12:23,710
and so, you know, Enbridge
for one, has invested

205
00:12:23,777 --> 00:12:26,280
billions of dollars over
the years into the

206
00:12:26,346 --> 00:12:29,183
integrity of our systems.
We are monitoring these

207
00:12:29,249 --> 00:12:34,321
pipelines 365 days a year,
24 hours a day, seven days

208
00:12:34,388 --> 00:12:38,458
a week. We are continuously
running tools and doing

209
00:12:38,525 --> 00:12:41,695
checks to make sure that we
know the integrity of our

210
00:12:41,762 --> 00:12:44,431
pipeline. We know that it's
safe.

211
00:12:44,498 --> 00:12:48,969
>> So what happens if this
reroute is rejected?

212
00:12:49,036 --> 00:12:52,439
>> The DNR did an
environmental impact

213
00:12:52,506 --> 00:12:56,310
statement, which was done
over four plus years, and

214
00:12:56,376 --> 00:12:59,413
it concluded that those
impacts will be minimal,

215
00:12:59,479 --> 00:13:03,150
temporary and localized,
just like with most, if not

216
00:13:03,217 --> 00:13:06,453
any, you know, all
construction projects. And

217
00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,323
so we fully believe that
when we get through the

218
00:13:09,389 --> 00:13:12,226
contested case process, the
permits will be affirmed

219
00:13:12,292 --> 00:13:15,195
and we'll be able to start
construction, and we're

220
00:13:15,262 --> 00:13:18,098
ready to do that as soon as
we get all the approvals

221
00:13:18,165 --> 00:13:21,235
required.
Enbridge, thanks very much.

222
00:13:21,301 --> 00:13:25,672
>> Thanks for having me.
>> This update to our

223
00:13:25,739 --> 00:13:28,909
tribal college report last
week, the Department of

224
00:13:28,976 --> 00:13:32,679
Education announced a $108
million increase in funding

225
00:13:32,746 --> 00:13:35,616
for tribal colleges and
universities before the

226
00:13:35,682 --> 00:13:40,387
2025 fiscal year ends this
month. Lac Courte Oreilles

227
00:13:40,454 --> 00:13:43,123
Ojibwe University and the
College of Menominee Nation

228
00:13:43,190 --> 00:13:46,560
will now receive a boost in
funding that the

229
00:13:46,627 --> 00:13:49,263
administration says is a
one time investment. Tribal

230
00:13:49,329 --> 00:13:52,132
institutions are also
funded by the Department of

231
00:13:52,199 --> 00:13:53,734
Interior, which has
proposed cuts to tribal

232
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,370
higher education programs

233
00:14:00,807 --> 00:14:03,477
conservative influencerng

234
00:14:05,045 --> 00:14:08,048
Charlie Kirk. Dozens of
people across the country

235
00:14:08,115 --> 00:14:10,951
have lost their jobs over
social media comments they

236
00:14:11,018 --> 00:14:14,688
made in reaction. In Eau
Claire, Republican

237
00:14:14,755 --> 00:14:17,057
Congressman Derrick Van
Orden threatened to pull

238
00:14:17,124 --> 00:14:20,961
federal funding going to
the city over comments to

239
00:14:21,028 --> 00:14:24,765
council members made online
saying they celebrated

240
00:14:24,831 --> 00:14:28,335
Kirk's death. The council
members reject that

241
00:14:28,402 --> 00:14:30,404
accusation. Political
discourse, especially

242
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:33,774
online and in social media,
even before Kirk's

243
00:14:33,841 --> 00:14:37,277
assassination, has been
beyond toxic. But how to

244
00:14:37,344 --> 00:14:41,582
agree to disagree and talk
about it? BridgeEauClaire

245
00:14:41,648 --> 00:14:44,985
is a chapter of bridge USA,
which brings college

246
00:14:45,052 --> 00:14:48,088
students of different
persuasions together to

247
00:14:48,155 --> 00:14:51,425
discuss polarizing topics.
U.A.W. Eau Claire,

248
00:14:51,491 --> 00:14:54,428
political science professor
Adam Kuntz is the group's

249
00:14:54,494 --> 00:14:57,931
faculty advisor.
>> Thanks for having me.

250
00:14:57,998 --> 00:15:00,534
>> So do you suppose that
your next session you will

251
00:15:00,601 --> 00:15:04,605
be discussing Charlie Kirk?
>> I believe the students

252
00:15:04,671 --> 00:15:06,039
actually already have.
They've had their first

253
00:15:06,106 --> 00:15:10,110
session, and they have
discussed openly about what

254
00:15:10,177 --> 00:15:13,780
their views are on the on
the event. And I believe

255
00:15:13,847 --> 00:15:16,817
the students are going to
have an ongoing

256
00:15:16,884 --> 00:15:18,819
probably throughout the
year.

257
00:15:18,886 --> 00:15:21,788
>> What kinds of other
topics has BridgeEauClaire

258
00:15:21,855 --> 00:15:25,325
engaged on?
>> So BridgeEauClaire is

259
00:15:26,193 --> 00:15:28,996
basically what I would
describe as the anti debate

260
00:15:29,062 --> 00:15:33,066
club. The goal of the club
is basically to be a

261
00:15:33,133 --> 00:15:35,235
conversation club. It's
less about winning an

262
00:15:35,302 --> 00:15:39,039
argument, it's more about
trying to discuss and

263
00:15:39,106 --> 00:15:41,408
understand one another in
terms of our perspectives

264
00:15:41,475 --> 00:15:44,311
on politics, culture,
religious backgrounds,

265
00:15:44,378 --> 00:15:48,182
etcetera. And so the topics
can be far reaching. It can

266
00:15:48,248 --> 00:15:52,019
be anything from is a hot
dog a sandwich all the way

267
00:15:52,085 --> 00:15:55,022
up to should the United
States disassociate from

268
00:15:55,088 --> 00:15:58,792
Israel. So those, those
kinds of topics can be rife

269
00:15:58,859 --> 00:16:01,195
with lots of different
opinions. And the goal

270
00:16:01,261 --> 00:16:03,997
behind any bridge meeting
is basically to bring

271
00:16:04,064 --> 00:16:06,834
people from all different
perspectives into a room,

272
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:10,037
feel empowered to be able
to share your opinions and

273
00:16:10,103 --> 00:16:12,973
to try to understand one
another. The goal is not to

274
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,376
convince. The goal is not
to win. The goal is to

275
00:16:16,443 --> 00:16:19,213
basically try to get
students listening to one

276
00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:22,416
another, understanding in a
very sincere and genuine

277
00:16:22,482 --> 00:16:25,185
way, and then going away
and kind of processing that

278
00:16:25,252 --> 00:16:26,954
for your own beliefs.
>> So what are the ground

279
00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:29,456
rules? What are the
mechanics of these

280
00:16:29,523 --> 00:16:32,426
discussions? How do you
start.

281
00:16:33,193 --> 00:16:35,896
>> Yeah, so that's been a
learning experience. This

282
00:16:35,963 --> 00:16:39,366
took off a couple years ago
when we decided after an

283
00:16:39,433 --> 00:16:42,302
event that was run by the
center for Constitutional

284
00:16:42,369 --> 00:16:44,938
Studies, which is what I'm
affiliated with on campus,

285
00:16:45,005 --> 00:16:48,742
that we wanted to found a
club like this. This is

286
00:16:48,809 --> 00:16:51,111
less about free speech,
which is certainly a right

287
00:16:51,178 --> 00:16:55,115
that every American citizen
has. This is more about how

288
00:16:55,182 --> 00:16:57,851
do I exercise my free
speech and responsible ways,

289
00:16:57,918 --> 00:17:00,354
and to allow other people
to express those free

290
00:17:00,420 --> 00:17:04,925
speech rights. And so the
ground rules are very much,

291
00:17:04,992 --> 00:17:08,262
first of all, guided by the
national organization. It's

292
00:17:08,328 --> 00:17:10,964
there's there's a whole
handbook that the students

293
00:17:11,031 --> 00:17:14,535
go through to kind of
figure out how they would

294
00:17:14,601 --> 00:17:17,538
bring up a topic. There's
moderating time. There is a

295
00:17:17,604 --> 00:17:20,207
club president, there are
people that are in charge

296
00:17:20,274 --> 00:17:22,009
for picking the topics
themselves. But then within

297
00:17:22,075 --> 00:17:24,845
the local organizations,
there's a lot of

298
00:17:24,912 --> 00:17:27,214
adaptability and Eau Claire
students are very polite

299
00:17:27,281 --> 00:17:29,950
students. They've got, you
know, Wisconsin nice. And

300
00:17:30,017 --> 00:17:32,920
so I think that they they
add this extra layer of

301
00:17:32,986 --> 00:17:36,823
kind of wanting to build a
community despite political

302
00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:39,927
to admire the Gen Z
students because I think

303
00:17:39,993 --> 00:17:41,895
they are looking for ways
to build that kind of

304
00:17:41,962 --> 00:17:45,465
social connection in a
world that's mostly driven

305
00:17:45,532 --> 00:17:49,436
by algorithms.
have you found students to

306
00:17:50,204 --> 00:17:53,907
engage in actual civil
discussion with this

307
00:17:53,974 --> 00:17:57,878
generation, possibly
craving real connections?

308
00:17:57,945 --> 00:18:00,848
>> Yeah, I think so. I've
I've watched I've been

309
00:18:00,914 --> 00:18:03,050
teaching for about ten
years in different

310
00:18:03,116 --> 00:18:05,786
capacities, and I've
watched as the Gen Z

311
00:18:05,853 --> 00:18:08,155
population has started to
mature. And it's

312
00:18:08,222 --> 00:18:10,057
interesting. We're about
three years away from

313
00:18:10,123 --> 00:18:13,126
having our first gen Alpha
student in college, which

314
00:18:13,193 --> 00:18:16,530
makes me feel so old. But
the Gen Z students are

315
00:18:16,597 --> 00:18:19,233
absolutely looking for ways
to connect. But there's

316
00:18:19,299 --> 00:18:21,935
this feeling among them
that they don't really know

317
00:18:22,002 --> 00:18:24,137
how to connect. There's
this kind of catch 22. They

318
00:18:24,204 --> 00:18:26,907
want a social situation.
They want to find a

319
00:18:26,974 --> 00:18:30,043
community, but they're so
used to being targeted or

320
00:18:30,110 --> 00:18:32,212
trolled online, they're
scared to be able to

321
00:18:32,279 --> 00:18:35,282
express their opinions. And
so clubs like bridge are a

322
00:18:35,349 --> 00:18:38,018
great way for them to learn.
You know, those social

323
00:18:38,085 --> 00:18:41,822
skills in a real way, and
to do so in a closed

324
00:18:41,889 --> 00:18:44,858
environment where they
going to get piled on or

325
00:18:44,925 --> 00:18:47,427
misunderstood, or have
something screenshotted and

326
00:18:47,494 --> 00:18:50,097
taken out of context.
>> Circling back to Charlie

327
00:18:50,163 --> 00:18:52,833
Kirk in the aftermath of
his assassination, do you

328
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:55,769
sense a chilling effect on
freedom of expression with

329
00:18:55,836 --> 00:18:58,172
people across the country
right now?

330
00:18:58,238 --> 00:19:02,709
>> I think that there is a
huge divide right now over

331
00:19:02,776 --> 00:19:06,246
the terms of free speech. I
think that for many

332
00:19:06,313 --> 00:19:10,050
Americans, if you ask them
on Pew Research questions,

333
00:19:10,117 --> 00:19:13,053
for instance, it's it's
over a 90% threshold that

334
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,789
Americans cherish the value
of free speech. I think the

335
00:19:15,856 --> 00:19:19,159
challenge that we always
have, though, is what does

336
00:19:19,226 --> 00:19:22,596
that mean when it's the
other person expressing it?

337
00:19:22,663 --> 00:19:26,133
Everybody wants free speech
for themselves. Query as to

338
00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:27,801
to allow free speech for
others. There are, of

339
00:19:27,868 --> 00:19:30,003
course, categories of
speech that are not

340
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:33,173
protected. We know what
those are incitement,

341
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,644
obscenity, etc. but for the
most part, our First

342
00:19:37,711 --> 00:19:39,813
Amendment protects us. It
gives us the chance to be

343
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,115
able to express ourselves,
and especially on

344
00:19:42,182 --> 00:19:44,351
university campuses. That
means both Republican as

345
00:19:44,418 --> 00:19:48,956
well as Democratic students.
And so I think that

346
00:19:49,022 --> 00:19:51,725
universities have a real
opportunity right now to

347
00:19:51,792 --> 00:19:54,261
show that, you know, in a
pluralist society where

348
00:19:54,328 --> 00:19:56,897
people come with multiple
beliefs, the university can

349
00:19:56,964 --> 00:19:59,700
be a place where people
express themselves and do

350
00:19:59,766 --> 00:20:02,302
so in ways that are not
going to be silencing to

351
00:20:02,369 --> 00:20:05,239
them, to them. I wish that
we could replicate that in

352
00:20:05,305 --> 00:20:08,709
the rest of the public
sphere. I wish that we

353
00:20:08,775 --> 00:20:11,245
could help other Americans
after college or in other

354
00:20:11,311 --> 00:20:14,114
areas of life, recognize
that that is really the

355
00:20:14,181 --> 00:20:17,684
lifeblood of what we're
doing in our American

356
00:20:17,751 --> 00:20:19,853
democracy.
>> Indeed. Professor Adam,

357
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,857
thanks very much.
>> Thank you for having me.

358
00:20:23,924 --> 00:20:27,160
>> The list of candidates
to be the next governor

359
00:20:27,227 --> 00:20:29,897
continues to grow. Since
Democrat Tony Evers

360
00:20:29,963 --> 00:20:33,400
announced he would not seek
a third term this week, two

361
00:20:33,467 --> 00:20:36,770
more Democratic challengers
entered their names into

362
00:20:36,837 --> 00:20:39,907
the primary race for
governor. State Senator

363
00:20:39,973 --> 00:20:43,110
Kelda Roys and State
Representative Francesca

364
00:20:43,177 --> 00:20:46,046
Hong joined Milwaukee
County Executive David

365
00:20:46,113 --> 00:20:49,049
Crowley and Lieutenant
Governor Sarah Rodriguez in

366
00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:52,019
other state government news.
A political debate is

367
00:20:52,085 --> 00:20:55,989
brewing at the Capitol over
whether state employees

368
00:20:56,056 --> 00:20:59,760
remotely or be required to
return to the office. Here

369
00:20:59,826 --> 00:21:03,497
and now reporter Steven
Potter has details.

370
00:21:03,564 --> 00:21:06,166
>> We want to get the most
out of our state workforce,

371
00:21:06,233 --> 00:21:08,936
and this should have been
done a long time ago.

372
00:21:09,002 --> 00:21:11,071
>> State Representative
Amanda Nedweski is pushing

373
00:21:11,138 --> 00:21:14,208
for big changes to how, or
more importantly, where

374
00:21:14,274 --> 00:21:16,977
state employees work.
>> The Return to Work bill

375
00:21:17,044 --> 00:21:20,013
simply requires state
employees who worked inside

376
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,583
an office building for the
state prior to March 1st of

377
00:21:22,649 --> 00:21:25,986
2020 to come back and work
in person.

378
00:21:26,486 --> 00:21:29,189
from Pleasant Prairie has
several reasons why she

379
00:21:29,256 --> 00:21:30,691
thinks state employees
should be working in state

380
00:21:30,757 --> 00:21:33,827
office buildings instead of
at home.

381
00:21:33,894 --> 00:21:36,163
>> It's been five years
since this temporary

382
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:40,701
solution to the Covid
response was instituted.

383
00:21:42,302 --> 00:21:46,940
to evaluate productivity
outside of the office. So

384
00:21:47,007 --> 00:21:50,077
it just sort of was we're
all going to go home and

385
00:21:50,143 --> 00:21:52,813
work remotely, and no one
ever has to come back. It's

386
00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:55,749
become sort of a permanent
solution to what was a

387
00:21:55,816 --> 00:21:58,285
temporary problem.
Assembly debated and

388
00:21:58,352 --> 00:22:01,054
ultimately passed Nedweski
bill, with all Republicans

389
00:22:01,121 --> 00:22:05,325
voting for it and all
Democrats voting against it.

390
00:22:05,392 --> 00:22:07,160
>> As amended. It requires
most state employees to be

391
00:22:07,227 --> 00:22:10,130
in the office at least 80%
of the work month, roughly

392
00:22:10,197 --> 00:22:14,301
four days a week, allowing
for some flexibility.

393
00:22:14,368 --> 00:22:16,870
>> Nedweski says she wrote
the Return to Work bill to

394
00:22:16,937 --> 00:22:19,806
rein in a state government
remote work system that

395
00:22:19,873 --> 00:22:21,775
lacks proper oversight of
its employees.

396
00:22:21,842 --> 00:22:26,046
>> People are very
concerned about efficiency,

397
00:22:26,113 --> 00:22:30,184
fiscal management or
mismanagement and fraud.

398
00:22:30,250 --> 00:22:32,986
And I'm you know, this is
an accountability issue.

399
00:22:33,053 --> 00:22:35,622
>> And she says her
constituents are asking for

400
00:22:35,689 --> 00:22:38,926
this bill.
of your taxes. If you know,

401
00:22:38,992 --> 00:22:42,529
if you're a teacher or a
nurse, or maybe you're a

402
00:22:42,596 --> 00:22:46,066
small business owner,
the system. You want to

403
00:22:46,133 --> 00:22:49,169
know you're getting the
most you can out of it. And

404
00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,471
that's that's what we're
hearing from constituents

405
00:22:51,538 --> 00:22:53,140
>> Representative Mike
Beyer, a Democrat from

406
00:22:53,207 --> 00:22:54,908
Verona, says he's hearing
very different things from

407
00:22:54,975 --> 00:22:57,211
his constituents.
>> And I have not heard

408
00:22:57,277 --> 00:23:00,113
from one single constituent,
one single state worker who

409
00:23:00,180 --> 00:23:02,950
thinks this bill is a good
idea. We heard over and

410
00:23:03,016 --> 00:23:05,152
over from from the state
government, from

411
00:23:05,219 --> 00:23:07,287
secretaries and managers
and state government that

412
00:23:07,354 --> 00:23:09,857
they don't need this bill.
What they've been doing is

413
00:23:09,923 --> 00:23:13,060
working.
effective, which is why

414
00:23:13,126 --> 00:23:15,596
it's still in place so many
years after the pandemic

415
00:23:15,662 --> 00:23:19,066
began.
suggest that this would be

416
00:23:19,132 --> 00:23:21,068
helpful to state workers,
that this would be helpful

417
00:23:21,134 --> 00:23:23,337
to our state government. No
evidence to suggest that

418
00:23:23,403 --> 00:23:26,273
this would save any money
or make us more efficient.

419
00:23:26,340 --> 00:23:28,108
In fact, it will cost more
money and make us more

420
00:23:28,175 --> 00:23:30,077
inefficient.
>> To that point of cost,

421
00:23:30,143 --> 00:23:32,379
if this bill becomes law,
finding office space for

422
00:23:32,446 --> 00:23:34,815
state employees to return
to would be a challenge.

423
00:23:34,882 --> 00:23:37,784
Over the last few years,
many state agencies have

424
00:23:37,851 --> 00:23:41,021
realized savings in rent
and building maintenance by

425
00:23:41,088 --> 00:23:42,856
shrinking or even
eliminating their needs for

426
00:23:42,923 --> 00:23:47,294
physical office space. In
fact, the state is

427
00:23:47,361 --> 00:23:49,062
currently emptying and
getting ready to sell three

428
00:23:49,129 --> 00:23:51,431
of its largest office
buildings in downtown

429
00:23:51,498 --> 00:23:53,967
Madison.
bill at the time I

430
00:23:55,536 --> 00:23:56,937
introduced it was something
like 200 to $400 million to

431
00:23:57,004 --> 00:23:59,006
bring employees back
because they've closed

432
00:23:59,072 --> 00:24:02,075
buildings without
evaluating telework

433
00:24:02,142 --> 00:24:05,812
performance.
>> Representative Beyer

434
00:24:05,879 --> 00:24:09,216
allowed many state
employees to move away from

435
00:24:09,283 --> 00:24:12,052
the state's larger cities,
a benefit they appreciate.

436
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,021
>> They've moved out into
the state, across the state,

437
00:24:14,087 --> 00:24:17,024
out into assembly districts
that aren't as close to

438
00:24:17,090 --> 00:24:19,092
Madison as mine is. So that
means that those workers

439
00:24:19,159 --> 00:24:22,062
will have to come back, and
that has a tremendous cost

440
00:24:22,129 --> 00:24:24,097
to it in the hundreds of
millions of dollars.

441
00:24:24,164 --> 00:24:27,100
>> Both lawmakers note that
cybersecurity issues for

442
00:24:27,167 --> 00:24:30,337
remote working state
employees is a concern that

443
00:24:30,404 --> 00:24:32,806
needs to be addressed.
Beyer and Nedweski also

444
00:24:32,873 --> 00:24:36,076
agree that ending or
limiting remote work for

445
00:24:36,143 --> 00:24:38,345
state employees will have a
significant effect on

446
00:24:38,412 --> 00:24:41,849
hiring and retention.
>> There would be a bleed

447
00:24:41,915 --> 00:24:45,185
of good, talented, skilled
people from state

448
00:24:45,252 --> 00:24:48,422
want to see.
>> Well, I expect there'd

449
00:24:48,488 --> 00:24:50,791
be some turnover.
>> In all. There are about

450
00:24:50,858 --> 00:24:53,327
70,000 employees working
for various state agencies

451
00:24:53,393 --> 00:24:55,863
and the universities of
Wisconsin system. Estimates

452
00:24:55,929 --> 00:24:59,900
range that from 19 to 75%
of those employees work

453
00:24:59,967 --> 00:25:02,536
remotely or have hybrid
work schedules, depending

454
00:25:02,603 --> 00:25:06,206
on the agency.
Representative Nedweski

455
00:25:06,273 --> 00:25:09,543
mandate that all state
employees can work remotely.

456
00:25:09,610 --> 00:25:12,279
Again.
you have to come back,

457
00:25:13,113 --> 00:25:17,885
reevaluate, and if you it's
determined by your business

458
00:25:17,951 --> 00:25:22,356
unit or by your department
that you've been working

459
00:25:22,422 --> 00:25:25,292
work situation, you can
reengage in a remote work

460
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,495
agreement.
however, says offering

461
00:25:28,562 --> 00:25:30,931
public employees remote or
hybrid work options keeps

462
00:25:30,998 --> 00:25:34,101
the state competitive in
the job market.

463
00:25:34,168 --> 00:25:36,136
>> I don't think that this
is special treatment. I

464
00:25:36,203 --> 00:25:38,138
think this is treatment
that's consistent with what

465
00:25:38,205 --> 00:25:41,408
the private market is doing.
And and I think that

466
00:25:41,475 --> 00:25:44,912
managers have been holding
them accountable for being

467
00:25:44,978 --> 00:25:47,014
who are working for the
taxpayers as they're

468
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,982
expected to do.
>> While the Republican

469
00:25:49,049 --> 00:25:51,118
majority in the Assembly
passed the bill last week,

470
00:25:51,185 --> 00:25:53,954
it must still go to the
Senate. And if approved by

471
00:25:54,021 --> 00:25:56,657
the Republican majority
there, it will go to the

472
00:25:56,723 --> 00:25:59,927
desk of Democratic Governor
Tony Evers, who will almost

473
00:25:59,993 --> 00:26:02,729
certainly veto it.
Reporting from the Capitol.

474
00:26:02,796 --> 00:26:05,666
I'm Steven Potter for "Here&
Now".

475
00:26:05,732 --> 00:26:09,570
>> For more on this and
other issues facing

476
00:26:09,636 --> 00:26:13,640
website at PBS Wisconsin.
Org and then click on the

477
00:26:13,707 --> 00:26:16,143
news tab. That's our
program for tonight I'm

478
00:26:16,210 --> 00:26:20,113
Frederica Freyberg. Have a
good weekend.

479
00:26:44,004 --> 00:26:45,772
>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

480
00:26:45,839 --> 00:26:48,141
is provided by the Focus
Fund for Journalism and

481
00:26:48,208 --> 00:26:50,677
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.