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The following program is a
PBS Wisconsin original

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production.
predictable is really a

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court that looks like a
legislature.

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>> Despite criticism,
courtrooms continue to be a

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check and balance on
partisan disputes of power

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and resolve remains strong,
as a Janesville worker

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strike drags on.
[MUSIC]

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I'm Frederica Freyberg.
Tonight on "Here& Now",

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health workers in
Janesville reached two

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months on the picket line
heading into Labor Day.

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Alzheimer's and dementia
research funding continues

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for now, but the work is
still at risk. Recent

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rulings from the Wisconsin
Supreme Court shuffled the

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power balance in state
government, and a sudden

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spike in overdoses in La
Crosse. It's "Here& Now"

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for August 29th.
[MUSIC]

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>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

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Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.

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>> Leading up to this Labor
Day picket lines in

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Janesville. That's where
more than 130 health care

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workers are on strike. In a
contract dispute with

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Mercyhealth. The workers
are members of UAW local 95.

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Local 95. President Judy
McRoberts joins us now. And

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thanks very much for being
here, Judy.

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>> So this strike started
July 2nd and is now coming

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into month three. Why are
your members on strike?

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>> Well, one of their main
concerns is safety. And the

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security of of their
building and themselves and

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the patients. The. We have
an urgent care in this

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building, and it's open
until the evening. And

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we've had people out in the
parking lot panhandling and

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asking for rides and so on.
And it's scary for the

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women who are leaving this,
this facility at night.

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We've also had some one of
our nurses come in for an

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urgent care shift and went
to the break room. And

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here's somebody was sitting
had was staying in the

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break room. And so that we
there was no security in

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the building. And that's
not only unsafe for

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employees, that's unsafe
for our patients. We've

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asked for at least security
cameras or security cameras,

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security officers to be in
the building to in the

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morning and at least in the
evening to make sure the

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building is secure and
people can get out safely.

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>> Why is it proving so
hard to settle with

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Mercyhealth over, over that
issue?

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>> I have no idea. But one
thing I do want to point

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out is the first day that
we had our pickets set up,

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our peaceful picketing
picket line was that have

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had no problems whatsoever.
They've had security out

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there for their people
coming in the building and

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worrying about their
building being vandalized,

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which is pretty sad.
>> Are there issues around

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pay and benefits as well,
or is it most specifically

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about safety?
>> They did it for for a

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wage increase. But the the
wage increase that they

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asked for is barely cost.
The cost of everything

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that's gone up in our
country. Everybody sees

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that. But also they raised
their their premiums for

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their mercy care health
insurance, which is their

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their insurance, Mercy's
insurance. And they raised

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the rates and with with the,
with with the wage increase

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it barely covers. We're not
asking for anything that's

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unreasonable. We're just
asking for a fair agreement.

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And the last agreement, the
last negotiations we had,

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they actually offered us
less than they they offered

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in the in the initial
negotiations, which is a

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slap in the face.
>> The issues that you're

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pressing, common concerns
among health care workers

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generally.
>> I believe so. They've

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had several issues at the
hospitals that people have

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been unruly. I mean, what
what happens if you're in

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an urgent care at night and
somebody becomes unruly? I

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mean, you have nobody there.
You know, most of those

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people are not equipped to
fight off someone who's

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it's a common thing that
security should be, should

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be, should be in medical
facilities everywhere.

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>> What about for your
striking members? How are

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they faring? As as the
weeks go on?

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>> They are they are
they're concerned, but

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they're not willing to give
up the fight. We're 95%

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union facility. And like I
said, we're just looking

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for a fair agreement. We're
not asking for anything.

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Unbelievable. I mean, we
we're talking about a CEO

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in a nonprofit that is
making $13 million a year

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and has 12 vice presidents
that are making $450,000 a

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year, plus their perks.
That's that's that's

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horrible. When you don't
want to pay these people a

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decent living rate where
living wage.

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>> Judy McRoberts President
of local 95. Thanks very

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much for joining us.
>> Okay. Thank you.

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>> When asked for comment,
Mercyhealth provided their

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original statement released
in late June from Vice

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President Jeni Hallatt
saying, quote, throughout

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our negotiations with the
union, we have always

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treated our 137 partners at
Mercyhealth East in a fair

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and equitable manner,
consistent with our other

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8000 plus employee partners.
Unfortunately, the union

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has rejected our offer as
the fall semester is poised

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to begin. Wisconsin's major
research university,

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UW-Madison, is grappling
with the potential of tens

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of millions of dollars of
cuts to federal funding,

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most of it cuts to National
Institutes of Health

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research funding. But the
cuts span other disciplines,

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like money from the
Department of Energy, the

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National Science Foundation
and the Department of

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Defense. What does this
mean for the state's

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flagship university? We
check in with the senior

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associate dean for basic
research, biotechnology and

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graduate studies at the UW
School of Medicine and

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Public Health. John Audia.
Thanks very much for being

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here.
>> So, all told, what is

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the hit to federal research
funding at UW-Madison as it

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stands now?
enormous delays in a lot of

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funds that we were
expecting to arrive on

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campus nationwide. That
amounts to about $5 billion

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in shortfall in NIH funding
to go to research

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institutions. We've been
fortunate in some senses,

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in that many of our grants
have come through. However,

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many more are sitting,
waiting where there's an

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expectation for months. I
personally even went

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through a period of time
where I waited on a grant

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to be awarded for four
months beyond the time that

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I expected it to start.
This has enormous impacts

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on our ability to fund our
research, to fund our

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people. And luckily though,
UW-Madison has stood up

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bridging programs, which
have been phenomenal. So

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our chancellor, Chancellor
Jennifer Mnookin, has just

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reached out and really
enabled us to continue to

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thrive, even in an era
where there's a lot of

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uncertainty.
uncertainty being felt most

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acutely?
larger research programs

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when there's interruptions
in funding to our large

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grants. This really affects
a lot of individuals. And

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unfortunately, there has
been directives from the

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National Institutes of
Health to remove certain

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language from the work that
we're doing. Some of the

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directions that we've been
taking historically in

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really very important areas.
Those types of disruptions

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lead to really enormous
challenges in ensuring that

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our people are able to stay
employed. We have put a

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people first mentality. We
want to ensure that the

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folks that are currently
working at the university

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are able to continue to do
so and pursue their lines

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of research.
that people often focus on

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when they talk about
research at UW-Madison is

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Alzheimer's and dementia
research. How much federal

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funding is does that
research get and is that at

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risk?
>> So right now we bring in

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over $100 million a year in
research funding from

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National Institutes of
Health and other federal

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sources in support of our
work directed against

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Alzheimer's disease, as
well as related dementias.

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Currently, the grants that
we have in that area, the

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largest ones led by Doctor
Sterling Johnson, for

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example, a grant called
clarity, which is hoping to

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identify biomarkers for
dementia. This grant was

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funded on time, fully
funded. Our Alzheimer's

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Disease Research Center,
its core grant was funded

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late but fully funded. Many
other institutions across

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the nation have not seeing
their funds come in when

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they are expecting them.
We've been fortunate to

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this point. However.
coming out of NIH that puts

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some of this or other
research at risk?

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>> So there's layers now of
additional review that very

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little. It's quite opaque
to be honest. We don't

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actually know who is
actually reviewing the

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grants. After the point.
The scientific review

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process is done. Those
additional layers of review

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that are being led by the
administration, whether

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it's within the HHS, Health
and Human Services or at

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NIH specifically, we really
don't understand why they

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exist, what value, what
purpose they serve. But

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what they do do is cause
delays in those grants

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being funded, and the money
being able to be dispersed

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to the institution.
>> Is some of it. They're

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looking at research that
goes to disadvantaged

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populations.
>> Absolutely. And as I

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think many of us know, our
disadvantaged populations

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are often the most impacted
by various types of disease.

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Alzheimer's disease is no
different. We see that

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Alzheimer's rates are much
higher in groups that are

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suffering from economic
disadvantage, from

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And when we have to remove
language related to those

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areas, it actually goes
against what the science is

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telling us by studying
what's happening in those

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populations around the
state of Wisconsin, our

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rural populations, our
urban populations. That is

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absolutely critical for us
to be able to meet the

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needs of everyone across
the entire globe, across

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the entire United States.
>> Are cuts to indirect

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costs for research
operations happening.

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>> So far? They haven't
started. There is sort of

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this idea that this is
coming in the future, and

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there's huge concern. We've
seen, for example,

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messaging from the National
Science Foundation, from

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the Department of Defense
that are requiring us to

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put in place smaller
amounts of indirect costs,

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which funds the institution,
the actual fabric of the

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university that allows this
research to be done. Not

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yet. We're really worried
about where things could go

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in the future, however.
>> So if some of this

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research this year was
delayed but eventually

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dispersed, what about next
year?

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that delta of about $5
billion that hasn't made it

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out of NIH. Come the end of
the NIH fiscal year, which

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is the end of September, if
those funds aren't

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likely to be reverted back
to Treasury. So those are

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dollars that become they
were appropriated by

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Congress but not actually
fulfilled.

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>> All right. We leave it
there. Thanks very much.

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>> Thank you for hosting me
today.

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>> In state election news,
conservative Wisconsin

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Supreme Court Justice
Rebecca Bradley announced

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today she will not seek
reelection in 2026, saying

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her work to rebuild the
conservative movement is

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not as a minority member of
the court. Conservatives

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have lost the last two
state Supreme Court

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elections by double digit
margins. Giving the court a

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Liberal majority until at
least 2028. In other news,

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on September 1st, new
commercial building codes

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will go into effect, nearly
two years after a

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legislative committee
blocked a rule that would

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have brought Wisconsin
building codes into

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compliance with
international standards.

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The rule update was at the
center of a Wisconsin

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Supreme Court case that did
more than just change

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building codes. Here and
now, senior political

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reporter Zach Schultz
explains how this case is

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part of a series of court
decisions that have

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dramatically shifted the
balance of power at the

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Capitol.
>> Any discussion? Hearing?

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None. Clerk will call the
roll.

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>> The Joint Committee for
the Review of

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Administrative Rules is
probably not well known by

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most people outside the
Capitol.

236
00:13:21,001 --> 00:13:23,770
>> I've been on the
committee the entire time

237
00:13:23,837 --> 00:13:26,640
I've been on the
legislature.

238
00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:30,043
Adam Neylon, it's one of
the most important

239
00:13:30,110 --> 00:13:32,112
been the place where
Republicans can stop what

240
00:13:32,179 --> 00:13:35,015
they view as executive
overreach by the

241
00:13:35,082 --> 00:13:39,019
administration of Governor
Tony Evers.

242
00:13:39,086 --> 00:13:42,990
because the real world
impact of administrative

243
00:13:43,056 --> 00:13:45,592
rules, people don't
necessarily understand that

244
00:13:45,659 --> 00:13:48,795
rules have the same impact
as law.

245
00:13:49,296 --> 00:13:52,032
>> Administrative rules are
proposed by state agencies.

246
00:13:52,099 --> 00:13:55,169
So when the DNR wants to
update the standards on how

247
00:13:55,235 --> 00:13:57,137
to clean up a hazardous
waste spill, or the

248
00:13:57,204 --> 00:14:00,974
Department of Safety and
Professional Services wants

249
00:14:01,041 --> 00:14:04,111
building codes, they have
to go through a series of

250
00:14:04,178 --> 00:14:06,113
steps, including scope
statements and public

251
00:14:06,180 --> 00:14:09,082
hearings, and eventually
the proposed rule will end

252
00:14:09,149 --> 00:14:12,486
up in front of the Joint
Committee for the Review of

253
00:14:12,553 --> 00:14:14,688
Administrative Rules.
>> On behalf of the

254
00:14:14,755 --> 00:14:18,258
Department, I respectfully
request that this committee

255
00:14:18,325 --> 00:14:21,195
extend the expiration date
for emergency rule 2502 by

256
00:14:21,261 --> 00:14:23,931
60 days.
>> The committee can

257
00:14:24,565 --> 00:14:27,201
request changes, but one of
the laws passed during the

258
00:14:27,267 --> 00:14:29,269
lame duck session at the
end of Governor Scott

259
00:14:29,336 --> 00:14:33,207
Walker's term gave JCR the
ability to indefinitely

260
00:14:33,273 --> 00:14:37,044
block rules. Both new rules
and old rules that have

261
00:14:37,110 --> 00:14:40,948
already been in effect for
years. In 2023, the

262
00:14:41,014 --> 00:14:43,517
committee blocked an update
to the building codes.

263
00:14:43,584 --> 00:14:46,186
>> When they proposed the
building code, it went what

264
00:14:46,253 --> 00:14:49,790
we believe far above and
beyond legislative intent.

265
00:14:49,857 --> 00:14:52,259
>> The committee also
blocked a proposed rule

266
00:14:52,326 --> 00:14:54,862
that would have banned gay
conversion therapy.

267
00:14:54,928 --> 00:14:57,664
>> We're not here
specifically to discuss the

268
00:14:57,731 --> 00:15:01,502
merits of any conversion
therapy or any other type

269
00:15:01,568 --> 00:15:03,670
of therapy.
>> Governor Evers filed a

270
00:15:03,737 --> 00:15:08,308
lawsuit claiming Jkr's
ability to indefinitely

271
00:15:09,142 --> 00:15:12,513
veto and unconstitutional.
>> This case is as

272
00:15:12,579 --> 00:15:14,948
consequential for the
operation of government is.

273
00:15:15,015 --> 00:15:18,285
Maybe I've seen in my time
on the court.

274
00:15:18,352 --> 00:15:20,921
>> At oral arguments,
conservative Justice Brian

275
00:15:20,988 --> 00:15:23,590
Hagedorn seemed to
acknowledge the decades old

276
00:15:23,657 --> 00:15:27,127
arrangement may not be
legal, but so many laws

277
00:15:27,194 --> 00:15:30,097
have been passed giving
state agencies the power to

278
00:15:30,163 --> 00:15:33,467
make new rules. With the
understanding the

279
00:15:33,534 --> 00:15:36,770
to make sure they didn't go
too far.

280
00:15:37,371 --> 00:15:40,240
Constitution says, but hey,
this is how we've been

281
00:15:40,307 --> 00:15:42,809
operating for a long time,
and the legislature has

282
00:15:42,876 --> 00:15:45,379
passed a lot of laws
accepting the framework

283
00:15:45,445 --> 00:15:47,915
that's been given.
>> Maybe it's not what the

284
00:15:47,981 --> 00:15:51,151
Constitution says was the
key phrase from Hagedorn.

285
00:15:51,218 --> 00:15:54,755
In a split decision, the
Liberal majority struck

286
00:15:54,821 --> 00:15:58,091
down Jkr's ability to
object and suspend rules.

287
00:15:58,158 --> 00:16:02,029
>> Sanity will reign.
That's what I think. We've

288
00:16:02,095 --> 00:16:04,865
been dealing with this for
all the time I've been in

289
00:16:04,932 --> 00:16:08,001
office, and that is this
committee, mainly the

290
00:16:08,068 --> 00:16:10,704
leadership. We're able to
stop everything dead in

291
00:16:10,771 --> 00:16:14,942
their tracks and then it
things just don't happen.

292
00:16:15,008 --> 00:16:17,144
>> Governor Tony Evers
celebrated the decision.

293
00:16:17,211 --> 00:16:19,847
While Republicans like
Neylon fear what rules may

294
00:16:19,913 --> 00:16:23,283
be coming now that they
can't object.

295
00:16:23,350 --> 00:16:28,689
>> What we're seeing now is
how much this has expanded

296
00:16:28,755 --> 00:16:33,994
executive authority and how
The ability to sidestep the

297
00:16:34,761 --> 00:16:38,232
legislature and potentially
have agency heads create a

298
00:16:38,298 --> 00:16:42,202
super legislature where
they're able to implement

299
00:16:42,269 --> 00:16:45,205
rules with no oversight
from the legislature.

300
00:16:45,272 --> 00:16:49,009
>> This isn't the only case
in the last term where the

301
00:16:49,076 --> 00:16:51,278
Wisconsin Supreme Court has
eliminated legislative

302
00:16:51,345 --> 00:16:55,449
oversight. In Evers v
Marklein 1, the court ruled

303
00:16:55,516 --> 00:16:58,252
6 to 1. The Joint Finance
Committee couldn't hold up

304
00:16:58,318 --> 00:17:02,389
purchases by the Noles.
Nelson Stewardship Fund in

305
00:17:02,456 --> 00:17:05,325
Kohl versus legislature,
the court ruled seven zero.

306
00:17:05,392 --> 00:17:08,328
The attorney general didn't
need JFC approval to settle

307
00:17:08,395 --> 00:17:11,031
civil lawsuits.
>> Both at the national

308
00:17:11,098 --> 00:17:13,967
level and particularly at
Wisconsin. There is a

309
00:17:14,034 --> 00:17:17,304
redefining and shifting of
what people thought was the

310
00:17:17,371 --> 00:17:20,474
balance of power and what
the court is saying is now

311
00:17:20,541 --> 00:17:22,342
the balance of power.
>> Former Wisconsin Supreme

312
00:17:22,409 --> 00:17:24,978
Court Justice Jeanine
Gajewski says as the

313
00:17:25,045 --> 00:17:28,048
partizan divides grow, the
court is being asked to

314
00:17:28,115 --> 00:17:30,017
look at the
constitutionality of old

315
00:17:30,083 --> 00:17:33,053
agreements on how
government works.

316
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:36,223
there's a justification for
it, not just the

317
00:17:36,290 --> 00:17:39,226
gentleman's agreement or
party's agreement. There

318
00:17:39,293 --> 00:17:42,829
has to be a constitutional
legal justification, or if

319
00:17:42,896 --> 00:17:44,831
not, we're going to
redefine it.

320
00:17:44,898 --> 00:17:48,535
>> I think there's been a
travesty of justice,

321
00:17:48,602 --> 00:17:52,139
honestly, because there has
been absolute weakening of

322
00:17:52,206 --> 00:17:56,076
legislative oversight.
>> Neylon may not like it,

323
00:17:56,143 --> 00:17:58,212
but Democrats say the case
was only filed because of

324
00:17:58,278 --> 00:18:01,081
what they call the
excessive abuse of

325
00:18:01,148 --> 00:18:03,984
authority to shut down
rules ranging from the DNR,

326
00:18:04,051 --> 00:18:07,187
setting safe levels for
PFAS contamination,

327
00:18:07,254 --> 00:18:10,057
election rules on absentee
ballots or the conversion

328
00:18:10,123 --> 00:18:13,193
therapy ban.
>> But I don't think the

329
00:18:13,260 --> 00:18:16,330
headline should be about
conversion therapy. I think

330
00:18:16,396 --> 00:18:18,532
the headline should be we
lost legislative oversight

331
00:18:18,599 --> 00:18:20,934
because that's what really
happened.

332
00:18:21,001 --> 00:18:24,137
>> Gajewski says she was
happy so many of the cases

333
00:18:24,204 --> 00:18:27,140
cut across the partisan
labels on the bench, with

334
00:18:27,207 --> 00:18:30,344
conservatives joining with
liberals, at least in part

335
00:18:30,410 --> 00:18:32,646
an all these cases.
>> I think that's healthy.

336
00:18:32,713 --> 00:18:36,083
I really was glad to see
that because I think a

337
00:18:36,149 --> 00:18:38,719
court that is totally
predictable is really a

338
00:18:38,785 --> 00:18:41,088
court that looks like a
legislature.

339
00:18:41,154 --> 00:18:43,757
>> The decisions by the
court are already having an

340
00:18:43,824 --> 00:18:46,260
impact. Governor Evers
cited the stewardship

341
00:18:46,326 --> 00:18:49,563
decision when he recently
approved raises for state

342
00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:52,332
employees passed in the
last budget without sending

343
00:18:52,399 --> 00:18:55,235
them to the Joint Committee
on Employee Relations, as

344
00:18:55,302 --> 00:18:59,173
is required by law.
Republicans refused to fund

345
00:18:59,239 --> 00:19:01,375
the stewardship Fund in the
last budget and are working

346
00:19:01,441 --> 00:19:04,978
on a new bill to give them
some level of oversight.

347
00:19:05,045 --> 00:19:06,880
Neylon says they were
already drafting

348
00:19:06,947 --> 00:19:09,049
legislation in a more
narrow fashion, to reduce

349
00:19:09,116 --> 00:19:11,818
the need for agencies to
draft rules.

350
00:19:11,885 --> 00:19:14,087
>> You're already seeing
bills be much more

351
00:19:14,154 --> 00:19:17,891
prescriptive and not
granting rulemaking

352
00:19:17,958 --> 00:19:21,295
authority explicitly
through legislation.

353
00:19:21,361 --> 00:19:24,831
>> Well, I think that's
what happens on decisions

354
00:19:24,898 --> 00:19:27,201
that particularly upend
what people have been doing.

355
00:19:27,267 --> 00:19:31,138
And I think that what
happens is that the the

356
00:19:31,205 --> 00:19:34,041
branches get more creative.
>> Neylon says his next

357
00:19:34,107 --> 00:19:37,344
bill will attempt to
restore some oversight for

358
00:19:37,411 --> 00:19:40,314
Jcra in a way both sides
can agree on.

359
00:19:40,380 --> 00:19:43,116
>> I think there needs to
be some sort of bipartisan

360
00:19:43,183 --> 00:19:46,253
agreement, some sort of
working together to make

361
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,056
sure that we put checks and
balances back into our

362
00:19:49,122 --> 00:19:52,059
system.
>> Reporting from Madison.

363
00:19:52,125 --> 00:19:55,262
I'm Zach Schultz for "Here&
Now".

364
00:19:55,329 --> 00:19:59,433
>> In western Wisconsin, a
spike in drug overdoses led

365
00:19:59,499 --> 00:20:02,603
the city of La Crosse to
issue a safety alert in

366
00:20:02,669 --> 00:20:06,340
recent days. What's going
on? When overdoses were

367
00:20:06,406 --> 00:20:09,910
trending down, we asked
Doctor Chris Eberlein,

368
00:20:09,977 --> 00:20:13,413
emergency medicine
Health System. And, doctor,

369
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,316
thanks for being here.
>> Yeah. You're welcome.

370
00:20:16,383 --> 00:20:18,785
Thanks for having me.
>> So what are the overdose

371
00:20:18,852 --> 00:20:22,155
numbers that led to this
safety alert?

372
00:20:22,222 --> 00:20:26,393
>> So it's more of a trend.
So we've been watching

373
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:29,029
overdose numbers really
closely ever since.

374
00:20:29,096 --> 00:20:32,032
Probably early pandemic
time, but only in the last

375
00:20:32,099 --> 00:20:35,836
several years have we
really coordinated with EMS,

376
00:20:35,903 --> 00:20:40,007
both first responders,
including fire transport

377
00:20:40,073 --> 00:20:43,644
agencies, some other
members of the county,

378
00:20:43,710 --> 00:20:47,247
Vivek health, some others
that respond to overdoses,

379
00:20:47,314 --> 00:20:50,384
and starting to pool data
and sharing what we're

380
00:20:50,450 --> 00:20:53,987
seeing in the community. So
we had noticed, and

381
00:20:54,054 --> 00:20:57,824
thankfully so last year we
had great numbers. You know,

382
00:20:57,891 --> 00:21:01,195
we're still way too high,
but it was like a 60%

383
00:21:01,261 --> 00:21:04,331
improvement year over year
and overdose deaths and

384
00:21:04,398 --> 00:21:07,801
responses. So really a
great trend. And we're

385
00:21:07,868 --> 00:21:11,205
seeing that at the
beginning of this year as

386
00:21:11,271 --> 00:21:16,109
well. And we would still go
on about 1 to 2 overdose

387
00:21:16,176 --> 00:21:20,280
calls a week is what kind
of the trend was.

388
00:21:20,347 --> 00:21:23,083
Throughout most of year we
get small spikes and we and

389
00:21:23,150 --> 00:21:26,119
we meet once a week and we
discuss the data and we

390
00:21:26,186 --> 00:21:29,923
were just watching it. We
had a few that were like 3

391
00:21:29,990 --> 00:21:32,993
or 4 in a week, but didn't
really meet our threshold

392
00:21:33,060 --> 00:21:35,195
to make any sort of
announcement or, or change

393
00:21:35,262 --> 00:21:38,332
our response. And then over
this course of the last

394
00:21:38,398 --> 00:21:42,836
couple of weeks, in late
July, we were getting over

395
00:21:42,903 --> 00:21:47,140
over ten responses in a
week. And so, you know,

396
00:21:47,975 --> 00:21:50,477
you're talking you know,
that's a five fold increase

397
00:21:50,544 --> 00:21:54,081
from what we were used to.
And so that really made us

398
00:21:54,147 --> 00:21:57,050
take pause. And then it
happened again in the next

399
00:21:57,117 --> 00:22:01,355
week as well. So so this is
why we we figured we'd

400
00:22:01,421 --> 00:22:04,024
better get some word out,
figure out what we could do

401
00:22:04,091 --> 00:22:06,660
as a community to see if
there's anything we're

402
00:22:06,727 --> 00:22:09,162
missing, and hopefully
prevent some people from

403
00:22:09,229 --> 00:22:12,065
having a bad outcome.
>> Because you've said that

404
00:22:12,132 --> 00:22:15,035
you get concerned when
overdose cases begin to

405
00:22:15,102 --> 00:22:18,272
increase in quick
succession like that.

406
00:22:18,338 --> 00:22:21,475
>> Yes.
>> And that's just a marker

407
00:22:22,409 --> 00:22:26,046
for something going on.
>> Yeah. And usually it is

408
00:22:26,113 --> 00:22:30,450
a change in supply change
in use pattern. And so

409
00:22:31,251 --> 00:22:33,520
we're really looking at
trying to figure out what

410
00:22:33,587 --> 00:22:37,524
that is. We did figure out
what this one was. And it

411
00:22:37,591 --> 00:22:40,627
was actually a change in
the supply of not opiates.

412
00:22:40,694 --> 00:22:43,964
Actually what we are seeing
is that fentanyl was

413
00:22:44,031 --> 00:22:46,934
intermixed with other
stimulants, primarily

414
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,972
cocaine and methamphetamine.
So these users had no idea

415
00:22:52,039 --> 00:22:55,242
that they were at risk of
an opioid overdose.

416
00:22:55,309 --> 00:22:58,645
>> So do these synthetic
opioids combined with other

417
00:22:58,712 --> 00:23:02,149
drugs like those of which
you speak, render Narcan

418
00:23:02,216 --> 00:23:06,119
less effective?
>> They would not. Narcan

419
00:23:06,186 --> 00:23:08,922
would still be very
effective for these, and

420
00:23:08,989 --> 00:23:13,660
still a critical component
in in our response.

421
00:23:13,727 --> 00:23:17,197
>> And so is it known where
these drugs are coming from?

422
00:23:17,264 --> 00:23:20,734
Or is this just kind of the
beginning of an

423
00:23:20,801 --> 00:23:24,404
investigation to understand
the scope of this?

424
00:23:24,471 --> 00:23:29,376
>> Yeah. And unfortunately,
we usually at our level

425
00:23:29,443 --> 00:23:31,879
don't don't ever get that
information of where these

426
00:23:31,945 --> 00:23:36,550
are coming from. You know,
that's more of a law

427
00:23:36,617 --> 00:23:38,685
enforcement historically.
You know, being in La

428
00:23:38,752 --> 00:23:41,855
Crosse, we're between two
major metropolitan areas as

429
00:23:41,922 --> 00:23:45,926
far as Chicago and
Minneapolis. And so they

430
00:23:47,094 --> 00:23:49,329
come from one of those two
areas, usually, at least

431
00:23:49,396 --> 00:23:51,398
that's what I've been told
by law enforcement.

432
00:23:51,465 --> 00:23:54,935
>> So what is your message
to people, drug users who

433
00:23:55,002 --> 00:23:59,973
might who might be using
these substances? And then

434
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,709
suddenly there's fentanyl
mixed in. What is your

435
00:24:02,776 --> 00:24:06,246
message?
>> So there's a few things

436
00:24:06,313 --> 00:24:10,651
to be aware of. One, any
illegal drug could have

437
00:24:10,717 --> 00:24:12,953
fentanyl in it. You know,
it's something that is

438
00:24:13,020 --> 00:24:17,491
relatively cheap to produce.
Gets here in large

439
00:24:19,526 --> 00:24:21,995
with other drugs. So I
would assume that any drug

440
00:24:22,062 --> 00:24:25,933
that you use could have
fentanyl in it. Use

441
00:24:25,999 --> 00:24:29,703
fentanyl test strips to
test for fentanyl in the

442
00:24:29,770 --> 00:24:33,440
drugs. Those are legal and
widely available and then

443
00:24:33,507 --> 00:24:35,008
never use alone. Always
have someone there that

444
00:24:35,075 --> 00:24:39,213
could call 911 and
preferably give Narcan as

445
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,150
well as call 911, but you
have to have Narcan

446
00:24:43,217 --> 00:24:48,255
available, test your drugs
and have a sober bystander

447
00:24:48,322 --> 00:24:51,358
nearby that could enact
help if you need it.

448
00:24:51,425 --> 00:24:55,863
>> How hard is it for you
to see this spike and treat

449
00:24:55,929 --> 00:24:58,999
people experiencing it, or
to lose someone to it?

450
00:24:59,066 --> 00:25:01,502
>> I mean, it's always
difficult. You know, this

451
00:25:01,568 --> 00:25:04,137
is something we've been
dealing with for years now.

452
00:25:04,204 --> 00:25:07,207
You know, the country has
lost hundreds of thousands

453
00:25:07,274 --> 00:25:09,877
of people to the opioid
epidemic. I think it's

454
00:25:09,943 --> 00:25:14,615
touched just about every
family at some point over

455
00:25:15,482 --> 00:25:19,453
these last, you know, 15
years or so since it

456
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:24,291
started, no community has
gone without impact. And so

457
00:25:24,358 --> 00:25:28,061
when you see the spikes
like this, you really want

458
00:25:28,128 --> 00:25:30,631
to try and get, because
sometimes I feel that we

459
00:25:30,697 --> 00:25:33,300
can get a little bit
complacent, especially when

460
00:25:33,367 --> 00:25:36,303
things are going well. And
that was one of my concerns

461
00:25:36,370 --> 00:25:39,106
with this. You know, the
the overdoses have gone

462
00:25:39,173 --> 00:25:43,410
down. I just want to make
sure, as you know, our

463
00:25:44,111 --> 00:25:46,480
whole team wanted to make
sure that everyone was

464
00:25:46,547 --> 00:25:50,450
aware that it is still
dangerous. And ideally, you

465
00:25:50,517 --> 00:25:55,255
know, we could get them to
stop and get help. But this

466
00:25:55,322 --> 00:25:58,091
is the first step. You have
to be alive to be able to

467
00:25:58,158 --> 00:26:00,794
do that. And this is the
step to do so well.

468
00:26:00,861 --> 00:26:04,431
>> Doctor Chris Eberlein,
thanks very much.

469
00:26:04,498 --> 00:26:07,034
>> Very welcome.
>> For more on this and

470
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other issues facing
Wisconsin, visit our

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website at PBS Wisconsin.
Org and then click on the

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news tab. That's our
program for tonight I'm

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Frederica Freyberg. Have a
good weekend.

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[MUSIC]
.

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>> Funding for "Here& Now"
is provided by the Focus

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00:26:47,608 --> 00:26:52,279
Fund for Journalism and
Friends of PBS Wisconsin.