% THE REMAINDER OF THE TERM ENDING
% IN JANUARY OF 2027.
% ALSO, AT THE STATE CAPITOL THIS
% WEEK, A SENATE COMMITTEE ON
% JUDICIARY AND PUBLIC SAFETY
% HEARD TESTIMONY ON A BILL THAT
% WOULD INCREASE PENALTIES FOR
% DRUG OVERDOSES THAT ARE TREATED
% AS HOMICIDES, SAYING WISCONSIN'S
% CURRENT LAW DOESN'T GO FAR
% ENOUGH AT TARGETING SUPPLIERS OF
% DRUGS LIKE OPIOIDS LACED WITH
% FENTANYL.
% BUT SOME EXPERTS SAY WHAT THESE
% LAWS SEEK IN THEORY IS NOT WHAT
% THEY TARGET IN PRACTICE.
% TO LEARN MORE, WE SPEAK WITH
% JOHN GROSS, A CLINICAL ASSOCIATE
% PROFESSOR OF LAW AT THE UW LAW
% SCHOOL AND DIRECTOR OF THE
% PUBLIC DEFENDER PROJECT.
% AND PROFESSOR, THANKS VERY MUCH
% FOR BEING HERE.
% >> MY PLEASURE.
% THANK YOU.
% >> SO CURRENT STATE LAW MAKES
% CAUSING THE DEATH IN AN OVERDOSE
% A 40-YEAR MAXIMUM PENALTY.
% THIS BILL WOULD MAKE IT A
% 60-YEAR.%WHAT'S YOUR REACTION
TO THAT
% PROPOSAL OUT OF THE CAPITOL?
% >> WELL, MY FIRST REACTION IS
% THAT I DON'T THINK IT'S
% NECESSARY TO INCREASE THE
% PENALTY HERE.
% WISCONSIN ACTUALLY HAS VERY HIGH
% PENALTIES RELATIVE TO SOME OTHER
% STATES FOR VARIOUS FELONY
% OFFENSES.%SO MOVING THIS FRO
M A 40-YEAR
% MAXIMUM TO A 60-YEAR MAXIMUM, I
% JUST DON'T THINK IT REALLY
% ADDRESSES ANY OF THE UNDERLYING
% ISSUES.%>> WELL, DOES IT SEE
M, GIVEN THE
% OPIOID CRISIS, THAT POLICY
% MAKERS ARE LOOKING TO USE KIND
% OF A TOUGH ON DRUGS HAMMER TO
% QUELL IT?
% >> I MEAN, I THINK THAT'S THE
% KNEE-JERK REACTION HERE, IS TO
% SAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO APPEAR
% TO BE TOUGH ON CRIME BY
% INCREASING THE PENALTY, BUT WE
% HAVE GOOD DATA THAT SUGGESTS
% THAT THIS TYPE OF KNEE-JERK
% REACTION THAT JUST MAKE
% SOMETHING MORE PUNITIVE,
% INCREASE THE PENALTY ON IT, IS
% NOT REALLY GOING TO IMPACT WHAT
% DECISIONS PEOPLE ARE MAKING.
% PARTICULARLY IN THIS AREA WHEN
% WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PEOPLE WHO
% HAVE OPIOID ABUSE DISORDERS.
% SO, AGAIN, IT'S AN ATTEMPT TO
% APPEAR HARSH ON CRIME, BUT IT'S
% REALLY IGNORING THE UNDERLYING
% ISSUES THAT ARE CAUSING THE
% OVERDOSES.%>> SO, AGAIN, YOU
DON'T THINK
% THAT IT DETERS OVERDOSE DEATHS?
% >> NO.
% THERE'S EVEN AN ARGUMENT TO SAY
% THAT INCREASING THIS TYPE OF
% PENALTY COULD CAUSE MORE
% OVERDOSE DEATHS, AND THE
% SCENARIO I'M IMAGINING IS A
% SITUATION WHERE PEOPLE ARE USING
% DRUGS, SOMEONE HAS GOTTEN DRUGS,
% SHARED THEM WITH SOMEONE ELSE,
% AND THAT THE PERSON OVERDOSES,
% AND WE WOULD HOPE THAT IN THAT
% MOMENT, THEY WOULD SEEK MEDICAL
% ATTENTION FOR THE PERSON, BUT IF
% THE MESSAGE FROM THE STATE IS IF
% YOU HAPPEN TO HAND THE PERSON
% THE DRUGS THAT THEY USED AND
% THEY ARE KNOW OVERDOSING, YOU
% COULD GO TO JAIL FOR 60 YEARS AS
% A DISTRIBUTOR OF THE NARCOTIC OR
% THE OPIOID?
% WELL, I MEAN, I DON'T THINK THAT
% NECESSARILY IS GOING TO PREVENT
% OVERDOSES.
% >> SO IN YOUR MIND, IS THERE A
% BETTER WAY?
% >> WELL, I THINK IF THE STATE IS
% INSERIAL CONCERNED AS WE ALL ARE
% ABOUT -- LOWER THE NUMBER OF
% OVERDOSE DEATHS, THEY'VE REACHED
% A HIGH POINT.
% HISTORICALLY WHAT YOU NEED IS TO
% REALLY ADDRESS THE UNDERLYING
% ISSUES OF ADDICTION.
% YOU NEED TO PROVIDE MORE
% OPPORTUNITIES FOR TREATMENT, AND
% YOU NEED TO CREATE, I THINK,
% SAFE SPACES FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
% OVERDOSING TO HAVE OTHERS TRY TO
% GET THEM MEDICAL ATTENTION, AND
% THIS IS REALLY JUST THE OPPOSITE
% OF THAT.
% >> WELL, WHEN IT COMES TO
% CRIMINAL PENALTIES, SHOULD THERE
% BE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KIND OF
% A HIGH LEVEL DEALER SELLING
% OPIOIDS LACED WITH FENTANYL AND
% THOSE ADDICTED TO OPIOIDS USING
% WITH THEIR FRIENDS.
% I MEAN, IS THERE A PLACE FOR
% THIS KIND OF PENALTY FOR THE,
% QUOTE, DEALER?
% >> SO IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE
% THESE TYPES OF OFFENSES ARE
% USUALLY LABELED DRUG INDUCED
% HOMICIDES, AND LEGISLATURE
% STARTED TO CRIMINALIZE THAT AS A
% HOMICIDE BACK IN THE '80s WHEN
% WE WERE EXPERIENCING AN UPTICK
% IN CRACK COCAINE USE, AND THE
% THEORY BEHIND DOING THIS WAS TO
% REALLY TARGET PEOPLE WHO WERE
% SORT OF DRUG KINGPINS.
% RIGHT? TO HOLD PEOPLE
% ACCOUNTABLE IF THEY WERE
% DISTRIBUTING DRUGS THAT WERE
% KILLING FEMALE AND MAKING A
% PROPHET OFF OF IT.
% UNFORTUNATELY, THE WAY THE
% STATUTE IS WRITTEN, IT CREATES
% THE POTENTIAL TO CHARGE ANYBODY
% WHO DISTRIBUTES OR DELIVERS
% DRUGS TO SOMEONE ELSE.
% SO THERE ARE INSTANCES THAT --
% WHERE WE SEE FRIENDS USING DRUGS
% TOGETHER AND ONE PERSON
% OVERDOSES AND DIES AND THEN THE
% OTHER PERSON IS CHARGED UNDER
% THE STATUTE.
% SO ON THE FACE OF IT, WE'RE
% REALLY JUST HOPING THAT
% PROSECUTORS WILL USE THEIR
% DISCRETION TO ONLY CHARGE PEOPLE
% WHO ARE THE SUPPOSED DRUG
% KINGPINS, BUT WE HAVE CASES AND
% SIGNIFICANT EVIDENCE TO SHOW
% THAT THAT'S NOT WHAT'S
% HAPPENING.
% THEY'RE REALLY TARGETING OTHER
% PEOPLE WHO ARE CO-USERS, AND I
% THINK THAT'S REALLY PROBLEMATIC.
% >> AND YET, WHEN A FAMILY MEMBER
% OR CHILD DIES OF AN OVERDOSE,
% SHOULDN'T SOMEONE BE HEALTH
% CRIMINALLY LIABLE?
% >> I MEAN, I THINK THERE'S
% CERTAINLY AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE
% THAT ANYBODY WHO HELPS PROCURE
% OR DISTRIBUTE A DRUG THAT IS
% ITSELF ILLEGAL AND DOES LEAD TO
% SOMEONE ELSE'S DEATH, THAT THAT
% CAN BE CRIMINALIZED.
% SHOULD WE BE CRIMINALIZING IT AT
% 40 YEARS AS A SENTENCE OR 60
% YEARS AS A SENTENCE?
% I MEAN, I THINK THOSE ARE
% EXTREMES AND I THINK, AGAIN, I
% THINK THE UNDERLYING ISSUE HERE
% IS THE ADDICTION AND THERE'S
% OTHER WAYS THAT THE STATE CAN DO
% TO HELP REDUCE OPIOID DEATHS AND
% OTHER OVERDOSES RATHER THAN THIS
% SORT OF PUNITIVE, LET'S JUST
% MAKE THE PENALTY LONGER
% APPROACH.
% >> PROFESSOR AT THE UW LAW
% SCHOOL, JOHN GROSS, THANKS VERY