% I'VE EVER SPOKEN TO KNOWS THEY
% NEVER CHANGED.
% >> ONE OF THE EXPERTS WHO
% TESTIFIED BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
% IN OPPOSITION TO LIFTING THE BAN
% ON CONVERSION THERAPY WAS BRIAN
% MICHAEL.
% HE'S THE CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER
% OF MENTAL HEALTH AMERICA OF
% WISCONSIN.
% HE JOINS US NOW.
% THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
% >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
% HAVING ME.
% >> SO WE JUST HEARD FROM MATTHEW
% SHURKA ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE
% HAVING UNDERGONE CONVERSION
% THERAPY.
% IN YOUR BELIEF, WHAT IS IT ABOUT
% THE THERAPY THAT CAUSES SUCH
% HARM, EVEN LEADING PEOPLE TO
% SUICIDE?
% >> WELL, REALLY WHAT A LOT OF
% THE BAD AND ADVERSE EFFECTS COME
% DOWN TO IS, YOU KNOW, MAKING A
% YOUNG PERSON WHO'S LIVING THESE
% THOUGHTS FEEL MORE REJECTED AND
% ISOLATED, AND WE DO KNOW THAT
% THOSE FEELINGS CAN LEAD TO
% INCREASED RATES OF DEPRESSION,
% SUICIDE ATTEMPT, SUICIDE
% IDEATION.
% YOUNG FOLKS WHO ARE PART OF THE
% LGBTQ COMMUNITY ARE ALREADY AT
% HIGHER RISK OF DEPRESSION AND
% SELF-HARM, BUT WHEN THAT IS
% COMPARED TO THOSE WHO FEEL
% HIGHLY REJECTED BY THEIR
% CAREGIVERS, BY THEIR FAMILIES,
% THAT CAN RESULT IN NEARLY A NINE
% TIMES HIGHER RATE OF ATTEMPTING
% SUICIDE, SIX TIMES HIGHER RATE
% OF DEPRESSION, AND ABOUT 3 1/2
% MORE TIMES LIKELY OF ILLEGAL
% DRUG USE AND HIV/AIDS.
% >> SO WHO ARE THE THERAPISTS WHO
% PROVIDE THIS CONVERSION
% COUNSELING IF IT IS SO
% OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED BY
% PROFESSIONALS?
% >> SO UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T
% HAVE A RUNNING LIST OF THOSE
% INDIVIDUALS AND THERAPISTS WHO
% DO ENGAGE IN THAT THERAPY OR IN
% THOSE TYPES OF INTERVENTIONS,
% DESPITE HOW MANY PROFESSIONAL
% AND MEDICAL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE
% DISAVOWED AND DENOUNCED THIS
% TYPE OF INTERVENTION, EVERYTHING
% FROM AMERICAN ACADEMY OF CHILD
% AND ADOLESCENT PSYCHIATRY,
% ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, THE
% SCHOOL COUNSELOR ASSOCIATION.
% BUT WHAT PARENTS AND FAMILIES
% WHO ARE SEEKING SUFFICIENT AND
% HELPFUL SUPPORT CAN LOOK FOR IS
% THAT THIS TYPE OF INTERVENTION
% MIGHT BE MASKED UNDER DIFFERENT
% TYPES OF TERMS.
% SO IT'S ALSO REFERRED TO AS
% REPARATIVE THERAPY, OR IT COULD
% BE REGARDED AS COULD BE CALLED
% SEXUALITY COUNSELING OR SEXUAL
% ATTRACTION FLUIDITY.
% SO REALLY, THOSE WHO ARE
% ENGAGING IN THIS PRACTICE,
% THERE'S EVEN A WAY OF AVOIDING
% THE KIND OF FLAGGING TERM OF
% CONVERSION THERAPY BY SIMPLY
% DESCRIBING IT AS SOMETHING ELSE
% WHEN IN EFFECT, IT IS STILL
% MAINTAINING THE SAME PURPOSE,
% THAT THE SOCIAL WORK
% ASSOCIATIONS WERE DENOUNCING OF
% ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE SOMEONE'S
% ORIENTATION, REALLY AGAINST
% THEIR WILL OR AT A TIME WHEN
% THEY'RE TOO -- THEY HAVEN'T
% DEVELOPED TO THE POINT TO MAKE
% THOSE DECISIONS.
% >> AND GIVEN ALL OF THIS, WHAT
% WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THE
% COMMITTEE VOTED TO LIFT THE BAN
% ON CONVERSION THERAPY?
% >> YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE WHO
% ATTENDED THAT HEARING AND
% WITNESSED THAT HEARING, IT WAS
% HOURS OF TESTIMONY AGAINST
% LIFTING THIS BAN.
% COMING FROM ALL VARIETY OF
% SECTORS.
% WHETHER IT WAS INDIVIDUALS IN
% THAT COMMUNITY THEMSELVES,
% SOCIAL WORKERS, TREVOR PROJECT,
% NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, MENTAL
% HEALTH AMERICA OF WISCONSIN, ALL
% COMING OUT TO SAY NOT ONLY THAT
% THIS PRACTICE IS HARMFUL, BUT
% WHAT THE COMMISSION -- WHAT THAT
% COMMITTEE DID WAS ALSO SAY THAT
% IN CREATING THIS ETHICAL
% BOUNDARY, THE SOCIAL WORKER
% ASSOCIATIONS AND PROFESSIONAL
% ORGANIZATIONS OVERSTEPPED THEIR
% BOUNDS, AND REALLY THE COMMITTEE
% WAS COUNTERING THEIR ARGUMENT
% SAYING THIS WAS A CAPRICIOUS AND
% ARBITRARY USE OF THAT RULEMAKING
% AUTHORITY, AND THAT IS WHY THE
% COMMITTEE SAID WE ARE GOING TO
% REMOVE THAT RULE.
% SO THEY DIDN'T -- THE COMMITTEE,
% DURING THAT HEARING, EXPRESSLY
% SAID SEVERAL TIMES, WE'RE NOT
% HERE TO TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR
% NOT CONVERSION THERAPY IS GOOD
% OR BAD, DESPITE ALL THE
% EVIDENCE, OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE
% SHOWING THAT IT'S HARMFUL.
% OUR STATEMENT REALLY WAS, WE
% DON'T -- YOU'RE RIGHT, WE DON'T
% NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE
% IT IS A HARMFUL PRACTICE.
% BUT THESE SOCIAL WORKERS AND
% THOSE PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS%
HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE
% EXPERTISE TO STATE, THIS IS AN
% UNETHICAL PRACTICE, AND IF YOU
% ARE GOING TO ENGAGE IN THIS
% PRACTICE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE
% ACTING OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF
% YOUR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT.
% >> WELL, WE APPRECIATE HEARING
% FROM YOU, BRIAN MICHEL.