% >> THE FOLLOWING PROGRAM IS A
% PBS WISCONSIN ORIGINAL
% PRODUCTION.
% >> DEMOCRATS CALL FOR THE
% REMOVAL OF AN ELECTION OFFICIAL.
% THE LEGISLATURE MOVES FORWARD
% WITH PLANS TO CHANGE THE CASH
% BAIL SYSTEM.
% AND A NEW CONGRESS LAYS OUT
% DIVERGENT AGENDAS.
% I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
% TONIGHT ON "HERE AND NOW."
% WHAT AN OBSCURE COMMITTEE VOTE
% MEANS FOR A CONTROVERSIAL
% THERAPY.
% CONTINUED OUTRAGE OVER
% STATEMENTS MADE BY A REPUBLICAN
% ELECTION OFFICIAL.
% AND THE FIRST IN A SERIES OF
% INTERVIEWS WITH CANDIDATES FOR
% THE STATE SUPREME COURT.
% IT'S "HERE AND NOW" FOR
% JANUARY 20TH.
% FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
% PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
% JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS
% WISCONSIN.
% >> A REPUBLICAN WISCONSIN
% ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER IS UNDER
% FIRE WITH CONTINUING CALLS THIS
% WEEK FOR HIS RESIGNATION.
% THIS COMES AFTER COMMISSIONER
% ROBERT SPINDELL WAS QUOTED
% POST-ELECTION SAYING TO FELLOW
% REPUBLICANS, "WE CAN BE
% ESPECIALLY PROUD OF THE CITY OF
% MILWAUKEE, CASTING 37,000 LESS
% VOTES THAN CAST IN THE 2018
% ELECTION, WITH THE MAJOR
% REDUCTION HAPPENING IN THE
% OVERWHELMING BLACK AND HISPANIC
% AREAS.
% DEMOCRATS CALL THIS BRAGGING
% ABOUT VOTER SUPPRESSION ON THE
% PART OF AN ELECTION OFFICIAL,
% AND THIS WEEK STATE SENATE
% DEMOCRATS CALLED FOR HIM TO
% RESIGN.
% COMMISSIONER SPINDELL JOINS US
% NOW WITH HIS REACTION.
% AND THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING
% HERE.%>> THANK YOU FOR HAVIN
G ME.
% >> WHAT IS YOUR REACTION AND
% RESPONSE TO THESE CALLS FOR YOU
% TO RESIGN YOUR POSITION AS AN
% ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER?
% >> WELL, YOU KNOW, I THINK THE
% DEMOCRATS HAVE REALLY LOST
% BECAUSE OF THEIR OWN FAILED
% BIDEN POLICIES SUCH AS
% INFLATION, SUBSTANDARD
% EDUCATION, HIGH CRIME RATE, AND
% THESE ARE SEVERAL OF THE ISSUES
% THAT WE TRIED TO PUT FORTH ON
% OUR RADIO COMMERCIALS AND OUR
% TWICE-A-WEEK RADIO TALK SHOW.
% THAT'S WHY MANY PEOPLE BECOME
% DISENCHANTED COMING OUT TO VOTE,
% INCLUDING THOSE IN THE MINORITY
% COMMUNITY.
% IN ADDITION, OF COURSE, THERE
% WAS A LOSS OF POPULATION
% SOMEWHAT IN THE CITY OF
% MILWAUKEE, BUT ALSO THE HARD
% WORK OF THE PEOPLE OF THE
% REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE CANDIDATES
% THAT WE GOT OUT TO RUN AND SO
% FORTH.
% WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT SUPPRESSION,
% YOU PROBABLY REMEMBER THE
% APRIL 2020 ELECTION, I USED TO
% BE A CITY OF MILWAUKEE ELECTION
% COMMISSIONER FOR 18 YEARS, AND
% IN MILWAUKEE, IT'S PROBABLY THE
% EASIEST CITY ANYWHERE TO VOTE,
% BECAUSE VERY RARELY DOES ANYBODY
% HAVE TO WAIT EVEN DURING
% NOVEMBER ELECTIONS MORE THAN
% FIVE OR 10 MINUTES AND IF YOU
% HAVE TO REGISTER, IF YOU WAIT
% MORE THAN 15 MINUTES, THEY'LL
% APOLOGIZE.
% BUT IF YOU'RE GOING BACK TO THAT
% 18 -- OR THE ONE IN APRIL OF '2D
% 185 POLLING PLACES DOWN TO
% 5 POLLING PLACES, THE -- CENTER
% SAID THAT WOULD REDUCE THE --
% SUPPRESS THE BLACK VOTE 15%.
% WHAT HAPPENED IN MILWAUKEE, THE
% GENTLEMAN RUNNING FOR COUNTY
% EXEC, CROWLEY, WON BY A THOUSAND
% VOTES, THE INDIVIDUAL RUNNING
% FOR CITY TREASURER LOST BY A
% THOUSAND VOTES, LENA TAYLOR LOST
% BY ABOUT 15,000 VOTES.
% SO CERTAINLY THE SUPPRESSION WAS
% NOT FROM THIS PROGRAM.
% THE SUPPRESSION WAS SOMETHING
% ALONG THIS LINE, TRY AND DO
% SOMETHING ALONG THAT LINE.
% >> COMMISSIONER, YOUR COMMENTS
% HAVE BEEN CALLED, QUOTE,
% INCREDIBLY RACIST, BECAUSE OF
% BEING PROUD, ACCORDING TO THAT
% EMAIL THAT YOU WROTE, THAT IN
% THE CITY OF MILWAUKEE, AMONGST
% OVERWHELMINGLY BLACK AND
% HISPANIC AREAS, 37,000 FEWER
% VOTES WERE CAST.
% WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SAY ABOUT
% BEING DESCRIBED AS INCREDIBLY
% RACIST?
% >> WELL, I'VE NEVER REALLY BEEN
% DESCRIBED AS THAT BEFORE.
% OVER THE YEARS, I'VE BEEN A --
% I'VE DONE A GREAT DEAL FOR THE
% BLACK COMMUNITY IN MILWAUKEE.
% I WAS APPOINTED BY GOVERNOR
% THOMPSON TO BE THE ONLY
% NON-MINORITY MEMBER OF THE
% GOVERNOR'S COMMITTEE ON MINORITY
% BUSINESS.
% HE THEN APPOINTED ME TO THE
% GOVERNOR'S CENTRAL CITY
% INITIATIVE, WHICH BROUGHT ABOUT
% ALL SORTS OF PROGRAMS TO HELP
% PEOPLE IN THE INNER CITY GET
% JOBS, GET A HOUSE, GET SOMETHING
% ALONG THAT LINE.
% THAT WAS -- I WAS ON A WISCONSIN
% CORRECTIONAL ORGANIZATION FOR A
% WHILE, GOING AROUND TO PRISONS,
% TRYING TO HELP PEOPLE TO KNOW
% WHAT TO SAY IN TERMS OF GETTING
% JOBS, BUT MORE IMPORTANT, FOR
% OVER 25 YEARS, I WAS VICE CHAIR
% OF CAREER YOUTH DEVELOP M, ONE
% OF THE LARGEST SOCIAL SERVICE
% AGENCIES IN MILWAUKEE, AND WE
% HAVE SUCH PROGRAMS AS WE WERE
% THE FIRST AGENCY IN THE COUNTRY
% TO GET WITH A DRUG AND ALCOHOL
% HOSPITAL TO START OUR OWN
% OPERATION WITHIN THE FACILITY.
% WE THEN PUT OUR OWN FACILITY
% TOGETHER.%WE RAN IT WITH OUR
OWN DOCTORS
% AND WE EVEN BUILT AN INPATIENT
% TREATMENT CENTER.
% THERE'S ALL SORTS -- WE HAVE 30
% PROGRAMS.
% >> SO YOU REJECT THE
% DESCRIPTION.
% BUT IT'S NOT NEW FOR CANDIDATES
% TO SAY, PLEASE VOTE FOR ME, BUT
% IF YOU CAN'T DO THAT, DON'T VOTE
% FOR MY OPPONENT.
% DEMOCRATS DID THAT IN 2020 IN
% TALKING TO MODERATE REPUBLICANS.
% BUT ISN'T THERE A DIFFERENCE
% BETWEEN THAT AND CELEBRATING THE
% REDUCTION OF VOTES AMONGST A
% POPULATION OF VOTERS THAT HAS
% BEEN HISTORICALLY DISCRIMINATED
% AGAINST THROUGHOUT OUR NATION'S
% HISTORY?
% >> WELL, REALLY THE THING I WAS
% CELEBRATING WAS THE FACT THAT
% FINALLY AFTER ALL THESE YEARS,
% THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OF
% WISCONSIN AND THE RNC FINALLY
% RECOGNIZED THE IMPORTANCE OF THE
% BLACK VOTE, THE HISPANIC VOTE
% AND NOT JUST TALK ANYMORE BUT
% THEY ACTUALLY PUT THE RESOURCES
% INTO THAT PROGRAMS SO THAT WE
% MAY MAKE PROGRESS WITHIN THAT
% AGENCY.
% AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE
% DISENCHANTED.
% I KNOW THEY WERE -- THE DEMS
% TRIED TO GET PEOPLE TO KNOCK ON
% DOORS TO GET THEIR VOTE OUT.
% THEY WERE PAYING $27 AN HOUR.
% THEY COULDN'T GET PEOPLE TO DO
% THAT.
% PEOPLE WERE DISENCHANTED.
% I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY
% DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BLACK,
% HISPANIC, THE WHITE COMMUNITIES
% WHERE THE EFFORT IS TO TRY AND
% GET THE PEOPLE THAT YOU HAVE
% IDENTIFIED OUT TO VOTE, AND IF
% THEY CAN'T, ALL THE ADVERTISING,
% WHETHER IT BE MILLIONS OF
% DOLLARS ON TELEVISION, THAT'S
% ALL NEGATIVE ADVERTISING TRYING
% TO SAY HOW BAD THE OTHER
% CANDIDATE IS.
% >> HAVE YOU SPOKEN TO SENATE
% MAJORITY LEADER DEVIN LEMAHIEU
% WHO REAPPOINTED YOU TO A
% FIVE-YEAR TERM ABOUT WHETHER HE
% CONTINUES TO SUPPORT YOU AS AN
% ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER?%>> N
O, I HAVE NOT, I HAVE NOT.
% ALL HE WOULD SAY IS WELL, THE
% DEMS ARE TRYING TO GET YOU FOR
% THE FOURTH OR FIFTH TIME TO
% RESIGN.
% THEY'VE TRIED THAT ON SEVERAL
% DIFFERENT OCCASIONS.
% BECAUSE SIMPLY THEY DO NOT LIKE
% MY GOING THROUGH AND MAKING SURE
% THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY HAS A
% VOICE ON THE COMMISSION, AND
% ALSO THAT WE WORK TOGETHER WITH
% THE DEMOCRATS TO TRY AND MAKE
% SURE THAT THE BEST SOLUTION FOR
% THE PEOPLE OF WISCONSIN COMES
% OUT OF SOME VERY HEAVY
% DISCUSSIONS AMONG THE SIX OF US
% ON THE WISCONSIN ELECTION
% COMMISSION.
% >> WE NEED TO LEAVE IT THERE.
% WISCONSIN ELECTIONS COMMISSIONER
% BOB SPINDELL, THANKS VERY MUCH.
% >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
% HAVING ME.
% >> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT
% COMMISSIONER SPINDELL DECLINED
% TO SPEAK ABOUT HIS ROLE AS AN
% ALTERNATE OR FRAUDULENT 2020
% ELECTOR.úSPEAKING IN THEIR DISTS
% WEEK, CONGRESSMAN BRYAN STEIL, A
% REPUBLICAN AND MARK POCAN, A
% DEMOCRAT, POINT FINGERS ON THE
% DEBT CEILING AND FORWARD THEIR
% OWN AGENDAS FOR THE 118TH
% CONGRESS.%>> YOU DON'T MESS
AROUND WITH
% THE DEBT CEILING UNLESS YOU
% TRULY, YOU KNOW, ARE ON SOME
% SORT OF A STRANGE DEATH WISH
% BECAUSE IT'S JUST AWFUL FOR THE
% COUNTRY.
% SO OUR HOPE IS THAT CALMER HEADS
% WILL PREVAIL AS TIME GOES ON.
% >> I JUST THINK IT WOULD BE
% FOOLHARDY IF WE SIMPLY JUST MADE
% THE ONE PAYMENT ON THE CREDIT
% CARD BUT DIDN'T CHANGE ANY OF
% OUR BEHAVIOR, BECAUSE WE'RE
% GOING TO SHOW BACKUP AGAIN NEXT
% MONTH.
% >> A BAN ON SO-CALLED CONVERSION
% THERAPY HAS BEEN LIFTED IN
% WISCONSIN.
% REPUBLICAN MAJORITY MEMBERS ON A
% LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE BLOCKED
% LICENSING RULES BANNING THERAPY
% DESIGNED TO CHANGE THE SEXUAL
% ORIENTATION OR GENDER IDENTITY
% OF LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL OR
% TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.
% MARISA WOJCIK HAS MORE.
% >> LAWMAKERS LIFTED THE BAN
% DESPITE CONVERSION THERAPY BEING
% DEEMED HARMFUL, INEFFECTIVE, AND
% NON-EVIDENCE-BASED.%BY THE S
TATE'S EXAMINING BOARD
% OF THERAPISTS AND COUNSELORS.
% >> WHAT MAKES IT SO HARMFUL IS
% THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO CHANGE
% SOMETHING THAT IS NOT
% CHANGEABLE.%>> MATTHEW SHURK
A, CO-FOUNDER OF
% BORN PERFECT, TELLS HIS STORY OF
% CONVERSION THERAPY AS A
% CAUTIONARY TALE.
% >> A LOT OF PARENTS REALLY ARE
% BEING DUPED IN A WAY.
% >> INCLUDING HIS OWN.
% >> THEY WANTED TO SPEAK TO A
% LICENSED PROFESSIONAL WHO COULD
% GUIDE THEM AS PARENTS AND MYSELF
% AS A YOUNG MAN.
% >> IT'S ABOUT PROTECTING
% CONSUMERS FROM HARM SO THAT
% THEY'RE NOT PAYING MONEY AND
% THINKING THAT THEY'RE GETTING A
% LEGITIMATE THERAPY OR TREATMENT,
% AND ACTUALLY WHAT THEY'RE
% GETTING IS SOMETHING THAT HAS NO
% THERAPEUTIC VALUE AND IS
% ACTUALLY HARMFUL.
% >> STARTING WHEN HE WAS 16,
% SHURKA AND HIS FAMILY SPENT FIVE
% YEARS AND $35,000 TO BE TOLD A
% LITANY OF REASONS WHY HE WASN'T
% NORMAL.%>> THE FIRST STEPS I
N MY
% DIAGNOSIS WAS THAT I WAS NOT
% ALLOWED TO SPEAK TO MY MOTHER
% AND TWO SISTERS, WHICH LASTED
% THREE YEARS.
% SOMEONE WHO'S IN A PROFESSIONAL
% SETTING IS JUST LIKE PULLING
% IRRESPONSIBLY THESE DIAGNOSES
% THAT I HAVE TO EXPLAIN OR TRY TO
% RATIONALIZE THAT WHAT I'M
% EXPERIENCING IS NOT REAL.
% >> SURVEY DATA FROM THE TREVOR
% PROJECT FOUND THAT 44% OF LGBTQ
% YOUTH IN WISCONSIN SERIOUSLY
% CONSIDERED SUICIDE IN THE PAST
% YEAR.
% AND THOSE WHO UNDERWENT
% CONVERSION THERAPY, OR WARNED OF
% THE POSSIBILITY, WERE MORE THAN
% TWICE AS LIKELY TO ATTEMPT
% SUICIDE.%>> I THINK THIS IS W
HERE THE
% SUICIDALITY COMES IN, THIS IS
% WHERE THE RUNNING AWAY FROM
% HOME, BECAUSE EVERY LGBT PERSON
% I'VE EVER SPOKEN TO KNOWS THEY
% NEVER CHANGED.
% >> ONE OF THE EXPERTS WHO
% TESTIFIED BEFORE THE COMMITTEE
% IN OPPOSITION TO LIFTING THE BAN
% ON CONVERSION THERAPY WAS BRIAN
% MICHAEL.
% HE'S THE CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER
% OF MENTAL HEALTH AMERICA OF
% WISCONSIN.
% HE JOINS US NOW.
% THANKS VERY MUCH FOR BEING HERE.
% >> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR
% HAVING ME.
% >> SO WE JUST HEARD FROM MATTHEW
% SHURKA ABOUT HIS EXPERIENCE
% HAVING UNDERGONE CONVERSION
% THERAPY.
% IN YOUR BELIEF, WHAT IS IT ABOUT
% THE THERAPY THAT CAUSES SUCH
% HARM, EVEN LEADING PEOPLE TO
% SUICIDE?
% >> WELL, REALLY WHAT A LOT OF
% THE BAD AND ADVERSE EFFECTS COME
% DOWN TO IS, YOU KNOW, MAKING A
% YOUNG PERSON WHO'S LIVING THESE
% THOUGHTS FEEL MORE REJECTED AND
% ISOLATED, AND WE DO KNOW THAT
% THOSE FEELINGS CAN LEAD TO
% INCREASED RATES OF DEPRESSION,
% SUICIDE ATTEMPT, SUICIDE
% IDEATION.
% YOUNG FOLKS WHO ARE PART OF THE
% LGBTQ COMMUNITY ARE ALREADY AT
% HIGHER RISK OF DEPRESSION AND
% SELF-HARM, BUT WHEN THAT IS
% COMPARED TO THOSE WHO FEEL
% HIGHLY REJECTED BY THEIR
% CAREGIVERS, BY THEIR FAMILIES,
% THAT CAN RESULT IN NEARLY A NINE
% TIMES HIGHER RATE OF ATTEMPTING
% SUICIDE, SIX TIMES HIGHER RATE
% OF DEPRESSION, AND ABOUT 3 1/2
% MORE TIMES LIKELY OF ILLEGAL
% DRUG USE AND HIV/AIDS.
% >> SO WHO ARE THE THERAPISTS WHO
% PROVIDE THIS CONVERSION
% COUNSELING IF IT IS SO
% OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSED BY
% PROFESSIONALS?
% >> SO UNFORTUNATELY, WE DON'T
% HAVE A RUNNING LIST OF THOSE
% INDIVIDUALS AND THERAPISTS WHO
% DO ENGAGE IN THAT THERAPY OR IN
% THOSE TYPES OF INTERVENTIONS,
% DESPITE HOW MANY PROFESSIONAL
% AND MEDICAL ASSOCIATIONS HAVE
% DISAVOWED AND DENOUNCED THIS
% TYPE OF INTERVENTION, EVERYTHING
% FROM AMERICAN ACADEMY OF CHILD
% AND ADOLESCENT PSYCHIATRY,
% ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS, THE
% SCHOOL COUNSELOR ASSOCIATION.
% BUT WHAT PARENTS AND FAMILIES
% WHO ARE SEEKING SUFFICIENT AND
% HELPFUL SUPPORT CAN LOOK FOR IS
% THAT THIS TYPE OF INTERVENTION
% MIGHT BE MASKED UNDER DIFFERENT
% TYPES OF TERMS.
% SO IT'S ALSO REFERRED TO AS
% REPARATIVE THERAPY, OR IT COULD
% BE REGARDED AS COULD BE CALLED
% SEXUALITY COUNSELING OR SEXUAL
% ATTRACTION FLUIDITY.
% SO REALLY, THOSE WHO ARE
% ENGAGING IN THIS PRACTICE,
% THERE'S EVEN A WAY OF AVOIDING
% THE KIND OF FLAGGING TERM OF
% CONVERSION THERAPY BY SIMPLY
% DESCRIBING IT AS SOMETHING ELSE
% WHEN IN EFFECT, IT IS STILL
% MAINTAINING THE SAME PURPOSE,
% THAT THE SOCIAL WORK
% ASSOCIATIONS WERE DENOUNCING OF
% ATTEMPTING TO CHANGE SOMEONE'S
% ORIENTATION, REALLY AGAINST
% THEIR WILL OR AT A TIME WHEN
% THEY'RE TOO -- THEY HAVEN'T
% DEVELOPED TO THE POINT TO MAKE
% THOSE DECISIONS.
% >> AND GIVEN ALL OF THIS, WHAT
% WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN THE
% COMMITTEE VOTED TO LIFT THE BAN
% ON CONVERSION THERAPY?
% >> YOU KNOW, FOR THOSE WHO
% ATTENDED THAT HEARING AND
% WITNESSED THAT HEARING, IT WAS
% HOURS OF TESTIMONY AGAINST
% LIFTING THIS BAN.
% COMING FROM ALL VARIETY OF
% SECTORS.
% WHETHER IT WAS INDIVIDUALS IN
% THAT COMMUNITY THEMSELVES,
% SOCIAL WORKERS, TREVOR PROJECT,
% NATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, MENTAL
% HEALTH AMERICA OF WISCONSIN, ALL
% COMING OUT TO SAY NOT ONLY THAT
% THIS PRACTICE IS HARMFUL, BUT
% WHAT THE COMMISSION -- WHAT THAT
% COMMITTEE DID WAS ALSO SAY THAT
% IN CREATING THIS ETHICAL
% BOUNDARY, THE SOCIAL WORKER
% ASSOCIATIONS AND PROFESSIONAL
% ORGANIZATIONS OVERSTEPPED THEIR
% BOUNDS, AND REALLY THE COMMITTEE
% WAS COUNTERING THEIR ARGUMENT
% SAYING THIS WAS A CAPRICIOUS AND
% ARBITRARY USE OF THAT RULEMAKING
% AUTHORITY, AND THAT IS WHY THE
% COMMITTEE SAID WE ARE GOING TO
% REMOVE THAT RULE.
% SO THEY DIDN'T -- THE COMMITTEE,
% DURING THAT HEARING, EXPRESSLY
% SAID SEVERAL TIMES, WE'RE NOT
% HERE TO TALK ABOUT WHETHER OR
% NOT CONVERSION THERAPY IS GOOD
% OR BAD, DESPITE ALL THE
% EVIDENCE, OVERWHELMING EVIDENCE
% SHOWING THAT IT'S HARMFUL.
% OUR STATEMENT REALLY WAS, WE
% DON'T -- YOU'RE RIGHT, WE DON'T
% NEED TO TALK ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE
% IT IS A HARMFUL PRACTICE.
% BUT THESE SOCIAL WORKERS AND
% THOSE PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATIONS%
HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AND THE
% EXPERTISE TO STATE, THIS IS AN
% UNETHICAL PRACTICE, AND IF YOU
% ARE GOING TO ENGAGE IN THIS
% PRACTICE, YOU ARE GOING TO BE
% ACTING OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF
% YOUR PROFESSIONAL CONDUCT.
% >> WELL, WE APPRECIATE HEARING
% FROM YOU, BRIAN MICHEL.
% THANKS VERY MUCH.
% >> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME JOIN
% YOU.
% TAKE CARE.%>> THE WISCONSIN A
SSEMBLY
% THURSDAY GAVE FINAL PASSAGE TO
% SENDING A CONSTITUTIONAL
% AMENDMENT TO VOTERS IN APRIL.
% A MEASURE THAT WOULD MAKE IT
% HARDER FOR VIOLENT CRIMINALS TO
% GET OUT OF JAIL ON BAIL.
% IT WOULD REQUIRE A JUDGE TO
% CONSIDER A DEFENDANT'S POTENTIAL
% RISK TO PUBLIC SAFETY, INCLUDING
% THEIR CRIMINAL HISTORY.
% CURRENTLY CASH BAIL IS SET ONLY
% TO ENSURE THAT THE PERSON
% APPEARS IN COURT.
% "THE NEW YORK TIMES" CALLS THE
% RACE FOR WISCONSIN'S HIGH COURT
% ARGUABLY THE MOST IMPORTANT
% ELECTION IN AMERICA IN 2023.
% TWO CONSERVATIVES AND TWO
% LIBERALS FACE OFF IN A PRIMARY
% FEBRUARY 21, AND 2 WILL MOVE ON
% TO THE GENERAL ELECTION APRIL 4.
% THE WINNER WILL DETERMINE THE
% IDEOLOGICAL BALANCE OF THE COURT
% GOING FORWARD.
% "HERE AND NOW" SENIOR POLITICAL
% REPORTER ZAC SCHULTZ BRINGS US
% IN DEPTH INTERVIEWS WITH EACH
% CANDIDATE OVER THE NEXT MONTH.
% FIRST UP, DANIEL KELLY, WHO
% PREVIOUSLY SERVED ON THE
% WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT.
% KELLY WAS APPOINTED BY
% REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR SCOTT WALKER
% IN 2016.
% HE RAN FOR RE-ELECTION IN 2020
% AND LOST, BUT SAYS HE IS RUNNING
% AGAIN AS A CONSTITUTIONAL
% CONSERVATIVE.
% >> CONSTITUTIONAL CONSERVATISM
% IS THAT COMMITMENT TO THE
% ORIGINAL PUBLIC MEANING OF THAT
% DOCUMENT AND FAITHFULLY
% FOLLOWING THAT IN EVERY SINGLE
% CASE THAT WE DECIDE.
% >> DOES THAT EVER RUN INTO
% CHALLENGES WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE
% SPECIFIC LEGISLATION TO FOLLOW,
% YOU DON'T HAVE THE SPECIFIC
% HISTORY OF COURT DECISIONS TO
% FOLLOW, AND YOU KIND OF HAVE TO
% BREAK NEW GROUND AS THE COURT IS
% SOMETIMES REQUIRED TO DO.
% >> YEAH, SO WHAT WE DO WHEN
% WE'RE BREAKING NEW GROUND, WHEN
% WE SAY THAT, WE'RE TAKING PRINCE
% PPRINCIPLES THAT ALREADY EXIST,
% TEXTS THAT ALREADY EXISTS,
% WHETHER IT'S IN THE CONSTITUTION
% OR IN THE STATUTES, AND WE'RE
% APPLYING TO NEW SITUATIONS.
% SO IN THAT SENSE, IT MIGHT BE
% BREAKING NEW GROUND.
% BUT WE NEVER BREAK NEW GROUND IN
% LAW.
% SO WE KNOW FROM LOOKING AT THE
% CONSTITUTION, ARTICLE 4 OF OUR
% WISCONSIN CONSTITUTION SAYS THAT
% THE LEGISLATIVE POWER IS LOANED
% TO THE ASSEMBLY AND THE SENATE.
% AND, YOU KNOW, IT DOESN'T SAY
% THE SENATE ASSEMBLY, AND ALSO
% WHEN DAN KELLY THINKS HE'S GOT A
% GREAT IDEA FOR NEW LAW, RIGHT?
% IT'S ONLY THE LEGISLATURE THAT
% GETS TO MAKE OUR LAW.
% SO EVEN IN NOVEL CIRCUMSTANCES,
% WE'RE ALWAYS GOING TO GO BACK TO
% THE TEXT OF THE LAW, WHETHER
% IT'S THE STATUTE OR IT'S THE
% CONSTITUTION, AND WE'RE GOING TO
% APPLY THAT MEANING TO RESOLVE
% THE CASE.
% BUT IF WE EVER GET IN A POSITION
% OF IMPORTING OUR PERSONAL
% PREFERENCES OR OUR PERSONAL
% POLITICS, THAT'S POISON TO THE
% WORK OF THE COURT.
% THAT DESTROYS THE CONSTITUTION
% KNOLL ORDER, AND THAT'S WHY IT'S
% SO IMPORTANT TO SET THAT ASIDE,
% SET ASIDE ALL THOSE PERSONAL
% PREFERENCES AND POLICIES, AND
% JUST DECIDE CASES BASED ON THE
% LAW.%>> YOU MENTIONED THE POI
SON AT
% THE FORUM LAST WEEK, AND YOU
% TALKED ABOUT IN REFERENCE TO
% SOME OF THE COMMENTS YOU HEARD
% SOME OF YOUR OPPONENTS MAKING.
% WHEN YOU HEAR SOME OF THOSE
% PUBLIC COMMENTS, HOW MUCH OF
% THAT COMES ACROSS AS VIRTUE
% SIGNALING TO AN AUDIENCE, TO
% VOTERS, AS OPPOSED TO HOW
% SOMEONE MAY APPLY THE LAW FROM
% THE BENCH?
% >> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S
% CONCEIVABLE THAT CERTAIN
% CANDIDATES MIGHT USE THAT AS
% VIRTUE SIGNALING, AND THEN
% OTHERS WOULD USE IT, JUST AS
% THIS IS HOW I'M GOING TO DECIDE
% CASES.
% HERE'S THE PROBLEM WITH BOTH OF
% THEM.
% SO IF YOU ARE -- IF YOU THINK AS
% A CANDIDATE THAT YOU SHOULD BE
% VIRTUE SIGNALING TO ATTRACT THE
% VOTES OF A CERTAIN BODY OF
% WISCONSINITES, WHAT YOU'RE
% TELLING THEM IS THAT YOU ARE
% NOT -- YOU ARE NOT COMMITTED TO
% THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER, AND
% YOU'RE TELLING THEM THAT THE
% POLITICS SHOULD HAVE A ROLE IN
% THE COURT, EVEN IF YOU DON'T
% INTEND TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON
% THAT, WHAT YOU'RE TELLING THE
% VOTERS IS THAT IT SHOULD HAVE A
% ROLE, AND I THINK THAT'S
% EXTRAORDINARILY PROBLEMATIC,
% BECAUSE WHEN PEOPLE COME IN TO
% THIS ROOM SO THAT THE COURT CAN
% HEAR THEIR CASE, WHAT PEOPLE OF
% WISCONSIN WANT TO KNOW, WITH
% ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY, IS THAT
% EVERYONE ON THAT BENCH IS GOING
% TO FOLLOW THE LAW.
% THEY DON'T COME IN HERE AND SAY,
% YOU KNOW, TO ONE OF THE
% JUSTICES, I WANT TO KNOW WHAT
% YOUR VALUES ARE.
% I WANT TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK
% THE LAW OUGHT TO BE.
% THEY DON'T SAY THAT.
% THEY SAY FOLLOW THE LAW.
% AND THAT IS THE COMMITMENT THAT
% WE ARE TO MAKE, NOT ONLY IN
% FACT, BUT IN APPEARANCE, TOO.
% >> HOW DO VOTERS DISTINGUISH
% BETWEEN THAT WHICH -- THEY WOULD
% PROBABLY LARGELY AGREE WITH, AND
% WHO YOU WERE APPOINTED BY, WHO
% CAMPAIGNS ON YOUR BEHALF, WHEN
% YOU APPEAR AT A CAMPAIGN RALLY
% AND YOUR PERSONAL -- ON YOUR
% PERSONAL BEHALF AS OPPOSED TO
% REPRESENTING THE COURT, HOW CAN
% THE PUBLIC DRAW THE DISTINCTIONS
% BETWEEN THAT AND WHAT THEY MAY
% SEE ON THEIR SCREENS?
% >> YEAH, SO I THINK THE BEST WAY
% THAT PEOPLE CAN GET A SENSE,
% BECAUSE I TALK TO PEOPLE IN A
% VARIETY OF SETTINGS, AND THERE'S
% HARDLY ANYONE THAT I WON'T TALK
% TO.
% I MEAN, YOU KNOW, CUBS FANS.
% I WON'T TALK TO THEM.
% EVERYBODY ELSE, I'LL TALK TO.
% SO THAT MIGHT OCCUR IN A
% POLITICAL CONTEXT.
% IT MIGHT OCCUR IN A COMMUNITY
% CONTEXT.
% IT MIGHT OCCUR IN A COMMUNITY OF
% FAITH.
% IT COULD OCCUR IN A WHOLE
% VARIETY OF CIRCUMSTANCES.
% AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT
% THE MEMBERS OF THE COURT ARE
% COMMITTED TO TALKING TO PEOPLE
% FROM A BROAD ARRAY OF
% BACKGROUNDS, AND SO I'M
% COMMITTED TO THAT.
% NOW, THE WAY THAT THEY BECOME
% CONFIDENT THAT I SET ASIDE MY
% POLITICS AND MY PREFERENCES IS
% BY READING MY WORDS.
% SO I WROTE EVERY SINGLE OPINION
% WHEN I WAS ON THE COURT.
% I WROTE IT WITH AN UNDERSTANDING
% THAT THE AUTHORITY I WAS USING
% WAS BORROWED FROM THE PEOPLE,
% AND THAT EACH OPINION I WROTE
% WAS REALLY A REPORT TO THEM ON
% HOW I USED THEIR BORROWED
% AUTHORITY.
% AND SO I WROTE IT IN EACH OF
% THOSE OPINIONS IN A WAY THAT
% IT'S ACCESSIBLE TO ANYONE.
% YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A LAWYER TO
% READ AND UNDERSTAND THE OPINIONS
% THAT I WROTE, AND I THINK THAT
% WAS IMPORTANT BECAUSE OF THIS
% VERY QUESTION, BECAUSE THEY NEED
% TO BE CONFIDENT THAT THE MEMBERS
% OF THE COURT, THAT THEY'VE
% LOANED THEIR AUTHORITY TO, ARE
% JUST DECIDING THE CASES BASED ON
% THE LAW.
% >> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE PEOPLE
% TALKING ABOUT WHAT THE NEXT
% COURT WILL ADDRESS, THERE ARE A
% LOT OF PEOPLE FRAMING THIS
% ELECTION AROUND A REDISTRICTING
% COURT COMING BACK, OR A
% REDISTRICTING SUIT COMING BACK,
% OR THE ABORTION 1849 LAW COMING
% TO THIS COURT.
% WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE IDEA
% THAT SOME PEOPLE WILL BE GOING
% TO VOTE BASED ON WHETHER THEY
% WANT TO SEE CERTAIN OUTCOMES IN
% CERTAIN DECISIONS AND THAT'S HOW
% THEY'RE GOING TO CHOOSE THEIR
% JUSTICE?%>> I THINK THAT WOUL
D BE REALLY
% UNFORTUNATE.%IF I COULD ENCOU
RAGE OUR FELLOW
% WISCONSINITES JUST ONE THING IN
% THIS RACE, IS TO MAKE A DECISION
% ON WHO YOU BELIEVE WILL BE THE
% MOST FAITHFUL TO THE LAW.
% NOT TO THE -- NOT TO THE RESULTS
% THAT YOU WANT, BUT TO THE LAW.
% AND JUST IF I COULD JUST ADDRESS
% THIS AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, JUST
% FOR A MOMENT, THERE MIGHT BE AN
% ISSUE OR TWO ISSUES THAT YOU'RE
% REALLY PASSIONATE ABOUT, AND YOU
% REALLY WANT TO COME OUT A
% PARTICULAR WAY.
% AND SO YOU SAY, I'M GOING TO GO
% AND FIND A JUSTICE WHO WILL
% PROMISE ME THAT HE'LL VOTE OR
% SHE'LL VOTE IN THIS PARTICULAR
% WAY ON THIS ISSUE.
% I THINK THAT'S A DANGEROUS PLACE
% TO GO, BECAUSE IF YOU FIND A
% CANDIDATE WHO WILL PROMISE YOU
% THAT THEY WILL VOTE IN A
% PARTICULAR WAY ON YOUR FAVORED
% ISSUE, THAT KIND OF JUSTICE IS
% ALSO GOING TO BE TAKING POLITICS
% INTO ACCOUNT IN VOTING ON EVERY
% OTHER ISSUE.
% BECAUSE JUDICIAL ACTIVISM VERSUS
% CONSTITUTIONAL CONSERVATISM,
% IT'S AN ALL OR NOTHING THING.
% YOU EITHER BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN
% BRING YOUR POLITICS INTO THE
% COURT AND MAKE DECISIONS BASED
% ON THAT, OR YOU DON'T.
% >> IT'S FASCINATING YOU
% MENTIONED THE LOOKING TO THE
% COURTS TO SOLVE A POLITICAL
% PROBLEM, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT
% OF PEOPLE WHO WILL SAY THAT'S
% JUST WHAT THE DOBBS DECISION WAS
% WITH THE U.S. SUPREME COURT,
% THAT THAT WAS CONSERVATIVES
% LOOKING TO A CONSERVATIVE COURT
% TO SOLVE A POLITICAL ISSUE.
% WHAT IS YOUR OPINION OF THE
% DOBBS DECISION?
% >> SO I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK
% DIRECTLY TO IT.
% YOU KNOW, THE ISSUE OF ABORTION
% IS VERY LIKELY TO COME TO COURT,
% TO THIS COURT.
% I UNDERSTAND THERE'S ALREADY A
% LAWSUIT THAT CHALLENGES AN EARLY
% VERSION OF THE STATUTE, AND
% INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, THE CLAIM
% THERE -- IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE
% I'VE LOOKED AT THE PLEADINGS,
% YOU NEVER KNOW, MIGHT HAVE BEEN
% AMENDED, BUT WHEN I ORIGINALLY
% LOOKED AT THEM, THERE WAS NO
% CLAIM OF UNCONSTITUTIONALITY.
% THEY SIMPLY SAID THAT THERE WAS
% A SUBSEQUENT STATUTE THAT
% OVERRULES THE PRIOR STATUTE, AND
% SO REALLY THE CONSTITUTIONAL
% ELEMENT OR THE QUESTION IS NOT
% COMING TO THE COURT ANY TIME
% SOON, ALTHOUGH THAT IS CERTAINLY
% A POSSIBILITY DOWN THE ROAD.
% SO THEY OPENED UP THE
% POSSIBILITY FOR THIS TO BE
% ADDRESSED AT THE STATE LEVEL,
% AND THAT'S ALL THEY DID.
% >> HOW MUCH IS THIS RACE CHANGED
% VERSUS THE 2020 RACE IN TERMS OF
% NATIONAL ATTENTION, STATE
% ATTENTION, PEOPLE'S AWARENESS OF
% WHAT THE COURT MEANS IN THEIR
% LIVES?%>> I THINK IT HAS GOTT
EN A
% HIGHER PROFILE, AND THAT IN AND
% OF ITSELF, I FIND SOMEWHAT
% REGRETTABLE.
% WHEN THE COURT GETS A HIGHER
% PROFILE, WHAT THAT SUGGESTS TO
% ME IS THAT THERE ARE FORCES THAT
% ARE TRYING TO ELEVATE ITS
% POSITION IN THE CONSTITUTIONAL
% ORDER TO BE IN A POSITION THAT
% IT'S NOT SUPPOSED TO BE IN.
% AND SO, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF WHAT
% I HEAR IS THAT THERE ARE ISSUE
% ADVOCACY GROUPS THAT ARE GOING
% TO SPEND A LOT OF MONEY IN THIS
% RACE BECAUSE THEY WANT, FRANKLY,
% ONE OF MY -- ONE OF MY
% OPPONENTS, MAYBE TWO OF MY
% OPPONENTS WHO ARE TALKING ABOUT
% THEIR VALUES AND WHAT THEY'RE
% GOING TO BRING TO THE COURT AS
% RULES OF DECISION.
% AND THESE INTEREST GROUPS ARE
% LATCHING ON TO THAT AND SAYING,
% YES, THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.
% WE WANT SOMEONE ON THE BENCH
% WHO'S GOING TO BRING THESE
% PARTICULAR POLITICS TO THE WORK
% OF THE COURT TO IMPORT THAT
% POISON INTO THE JUDICIAL
% PROCESS.
% WE WANT THAT.
% AND WHAT I'VE HEARD IS THERE'S
% GOING TO BE A LOT OF MONEY THAT
% IS GOING TO COME IN TO SUPPORT
% THAT.%>> NEXT WEEK ON THIS P
ROGRAM,
% ZAC SITS DOWN WITH LIBERAL
% CANDIDATE JUDGE JANET
% PROTASIEWICZ AS PART OF HIS
% SERIES OF INTERVIEWS WITH THE
% FOUR CANDIDATES RUNNING FOR THE
% WISCONSIN SUPREME COURT.
% FOR MORE ON THIS AND OTHER
% ISSUES FACING WISCONSIN, VISIT
% OUR WEBSITE AT PBSWISCONSIN.ORG,
% AND THEN CLICK ON THE NEWS TAB.
% THAT'S OUR PROGRAM FOR TONIGHT.
% I'M FREDERICA FREYBERG.
% HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND.
% >> FUNDING FOR "HERE AND NOW" IS
% PROVIDED BY THE FOCUS FUND FOR
% JOURNALISM AND FRIENDS OF PBS