- The following program
is a PBS Wisconsin original production.
- Kenosha.
No charges against the police officer
in the shooting of Jacob Blake.
A community is divided by the decision.
Washington D.C., deadly violence as extreme Trump supporters
ransack the U.S. Capitol,
even as the President watches the carnage
on television.
But Congress reconvenes certifying the Electoral College
votes sealing the Biden-Harris victory and now there are calls
for the removal of President Trump.
I'm Frederica Freyberg.
Tonight on “Here & Now,” U.S.
Representatives Pocan and Grothman are here to reflect on
the chaos this week at the nation's capitol.
The policing expert on the Jacob Blake case is here to explain
his recommendation for no charges in the shooting.
We'll hear from a Kenosha community organizer who is also
a Blake family friend.
And Zac Schultz reports on the first week of the legislative
session at the state Capitol.
It's “Here & Now” for January 8.
- Funding for “Here & Now” is provided by the Focus Fund
for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.
- Mr. President, you have got to stop this.
You are the only person who can call this off.
Call it off.
- That was Wisconsin U.S. Representative Mike Gallagher
in a Tweet during the siege on the U.S. Capitol on Wednesday.
He went on to vote to certify the Electoral College votes of
states as he had supported before the violent rioting.
Our U.S. Senators Tammy Baldwin and Ron Johnson also voted to
certify, though Johnson was fully behind voting to reject
until the capitol was overrun.
Of Wisconsin's other members of Congress,
only newly-elected Scott Fitzgerald and 7th District U.S.
Representative Tom Tiffany voted to reject electoral votes.
Those votes have the state's largest newspaper calling for
them and Senator Johnson to be immediately expelled from their
seats or to resign as members of what's been dubbed the “sedition
caucus.” Tough words for actions in a failed attempt to overturn
results of the election.
In a moment, we will be joined by Republican U.S.
Representative Glenn Grothman.
Joining us now is Democratic Mark Pocan, U.S.
Representative from Madison.
And thank you very much for being here.
- Glad to be here.
- At this point, you are among those calling to impeach
President Trump, but why with only 12 days left in his term?
- Because with 14 days left in his term,
we had an attempted coup on the U.S.
Capitol and who knows what could happen in the remaining days.
I mean Donald Trump is not normal by any stretch of the
definition.
No previous Democrat or Republican has brought so many
of his followers into Washington D.C. when you're there to
certify the electors, asked them to march on to the Capitol.
Egg them on for their actions.
And we don't know what else he could do in the remaining two
weeks.
Today Nancy Pelosi had to reach out to the head of the Joint
Chiefs and worry about access to the nuclear codes in case Donald
Trump would do something.
It's the Wall Street Journal.
It's the Association of Manufacturers,
neither of which is a liberal organization.
It's Republicans and Democrats who are all calling for this
right now because we have real concern for our country.
- Some Republicans say such moves just enhance divisions at
a time when President-elect Biden is calling for unity.
- We absolutely should have unity but you can't have unity
if you've got someone who could do a dangerous action.
The last time that there was a storming of the U.S.
Capitol was in the War of 1812 by the British.
So since this is something that Donald Trump did that hasn't
happened in several hundred years after following a pandemic
that we haven't had a 100 years, anyway,
we're starting to notice a pattern here.
This President has acted in unprecedented ways
and they have been unprecedented attacks on this country.
Let's face it, Donald Trump doesn't care about the country.
He cares about Donald Trump and his family
and his family's business.
And I think people really woke up this week to that.
But all the more we've got to protect our democracy
and the integrity of the country.
And you do that by either, one, having the cabinet do
what they should do is invoke the 25th Amendment
or, two, if they won't, we have to do impeachment.
- What's your response to Capitol Police losing control
and allowing the building to be breached in that way?
- Yeah.
It was sad.
The feeling I still have is sadness from what happened the
other day.
One, I think there was some ill preparedness.
They weren't ready for what happened and they should have
been better prepared.
We lost one of the officer's lives during this.
And, you know, by the end of the day,
they had 1,800 people to make sure we that we could get
the rest of the business done.
I'm glad we went back immediately into session and got
the business done that we had to.
But it never should have gotten that far.
We never should have had to worry about something like that.
Donald Trump invited those people to come that day and he
went to a rally and he and his family and his lawyer egged them
on for their actions.
So no one can act like Donald Trump is innocent on this and
unfortunately, as you saw from the editorial,
the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel and other places,
they're now referring to people as the “sedition caucus” who
voted to overturn election results.
None of this is normal.
I'm just hoping that in a couple weeks we can get back to a place
where business is done the way it traditionally has been done
when Joe Biden is president.
But in the next two weeks, I'm still very concerned for what
could happen.
- I just wanted to point to this.
How different do you think this would have been for the
protestors had they been Black Lives Matter demonstrators?
- No question.
There were only 55 arrests.
During the Brett Kavanaugh hearings,
there were over 200 arrests.
This was a very poorly-executed effort and already,
my committee, the Appropriations Committee,
one of the subcommittees that has oversight
over the Capitol Police is having a hearing.
There's probably going to be more reviews and reports done.
The chief of the Capitol Police is resigning
as are the sergeant-at-arms.
This clearly was done poorly.
And to say you're going to go and arrest people after the
fact, arrests that day would have helped quite a bit.
- Do you have real concerns for the next days
in terms of national security with Donald Trump
still the sitting president?
- Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Donald Trump is so unpredictable.
He's such a narcissist.
Who knows what else he could do?
And that's what I think our real worries are.
He's already been talking about being tougher on Iran.
We don't need to start a war in the last couple weeks of
anyone's presidency when you've got someone new coming in on
January 20th.
That's why I think we're so concerned and why we think not
only does he have to be punished for what he did,
which was an assault on our democracy on Wednesday,
but we have to make sure that he doesn't do any more damage to
this country.
- Meanwhile, nearly lost in all of this,
Democrats just won control of the Senate.
What will Democrats do with this leadership?
- So it's a tight margin.
It's a 50-50 Senate.
The tie-breaking vote is going to be Kamala Harris,
the vice president-elect.
Our House margin is a relatively small margin.
So it's not like you're going to see a lot of action happen
on things that I might like to see
as someone who's more of a progressive Democrat.
But it does mean that hopefully we can get
some of the appointments through that we need to.
We can get some basic bills that need to fix some of the damage
that was done by the Trump presidency through Congress.
But it's not exactly a huge margin in either house.
- All right.
U.S. Representative Mark Pocan, thanks for joining us.
- Absolutely.
Thank you.
- We move to the other side of the aisle now.
Republican U.S. Representative Glenn Grothman
did not vote to reject the electors.
He joins us from Fond du Lac.
Thanks for being here.
- Glad to be on the show as always
and glad to be back in Wisconsin.
- I imagine.
So as to the deadly violence at the U.S.
Capitol, in a statement you condemned the rioters and put
blame on Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump Jr. for encouraging
the behavior of those insurrectionists.
What about the President himself?
What blame do you give him?
- Well, I haven't heard his statements, you know.
First of all, when the kind of insurrection,
whatever we call it, took place, I was in my office.
So I followed things on TV rather than live.
And on TV, they kept repeating Rudy Giuliani and Donald Trump
Jr.'s statements.
So that's why they were included in my press release.
- What about the rally before that?
What about the rally that the President fronted before they
marched down Pennsylvania Avenue?
- Right, I'm not sure what he said.
I will say this.
I think there were irresponsible people who described this day as
being more than it would be.
Normally this is a very perfunctory vote to approve the
Electoral College.
It's something you barely remembered when it was done when
Donald Trump was sworn in.
And I think led by some - I'll call them irresponsible
congressmen - the public was allowed to believe that this was
going to be a much more significant vote than it was.
And that's why you had tens of thousands of people there,
many of them very wonderful people from Wisconsin.
- Many of those people wonderful people is what you're
saying now?
- Well, there were tens of thousands of people west of the
Capitol that you didn't see on TV.
And a lot of those people are very nice people.
They were typical people that you'd see at any rally and I
don't think a lot of people were aware that they were around here
as well.
- I want to ask your reaction to efforts to remove the
President before his term ends in 12 days.
- I think it's a silly media circus.
He's going to end in 12 days.
Why you would try to rush something through in the final
12 days and have Mike be President for one or two days
seems kinda silly to me.
- Do you believe, as others do, that the President after this
riot at the Capitol represents a national security risk in his
remaining days?
- No, I don't think so.
He's said he's going to go along with the transition.
I expect the next 12 days to be as boring as the last 12 days of
Barack Obama's presidency.
- You say now that the U.S. Constitution is very clear
that states determine their own electors,
calling votes to reject results in Congress this week,
you said both absurd and dangerous.
But you also say that you almost did that yourself.
What stopped you in the 11th hour?
Was it a political calculation?
What stopped you?
- No, I think actually
politically it might have been easier to vote the other way.
I'm sure it would have been easier to vote the other way.
Like I said, it was a very close decision,
and I think the people who made the point of the importance of
the Electoral College, the bad precedent you're setting
for the future is the reason
why I decided to uphold the Electoral College.
The other reason would be there are a lot of people who felt
this election was - there was cheating going on and I think
they need a voice as well and I sympathize with the congressmen
who voted the other way.
- You describe it as a very close call for yourself and yet
on the other hand, you talk about this being dangerous and
absurd.
But I just want to move on.
You think that we do need to investigate election fraud,
because, you say, Trump supporters believe the election
was stolen.
But hasn't this been kind of asked and answered in the
courts?
There is no evidence for election-tipping fraud.
Can't you just tell your Trump supporters that?
- Well, let's go through things that are incontrovertible.
Here in Wisconsin we had over 200,000, I believe,
voters who claimed to be indefinitely confined who
probably weren't.
We put up with that all the time,
but I think that's - people want to hear a little bit more about
that.
In other states, we had a judge in Arizona,
where they don't have same-day registration,
extend the time to vote,
which eventually was undone by the 9th Circuit.
Now, I have a feeling that President Biden's supporters
will even like what comes out of there because people will
realize that not that many new people voted.
But nevertheless, it's the type of thing that concerns people.
- Well, it may concern people but you know, as well as others,
that the judges in these cases across the country and here in
Wisconsin, many of them Trump judges, so-called,
ruled there was no evidence to move these cases forward.
- Well, let's take the example in Arizona.
- You know what, sir?
Actually, actually, I'm out of time and I'm sorry.
I'm sorry to cut you off. - I'm sorry.
- With the Arizona example.
But we look forward to talking with you again.
- Absolutely.
Okay.
Very good.
- From Washington to Kenosha, where this week prosecutors
decided no charges would be filed against the officers
involved in the August shooting that left Jacob Blake paralyzed.
Kenosha residents took to the streets in the wake of the
decision, but remained peaceful in calling for change.
“Here & Now” Reporter Will Kennelly reports from Kenosha.
- It is my decision now that I announce today before you that
no Kenosha law enforcement officer in this case will be
charged with any criminal offense.
- It was the decision that Jacob Blake's family didn't want
to hear.
- We're unhappy with what was said today.
We expected it.
It did not sideswipe us or jump us from the backside.
- Kenosha DA Michael Graveley says it would be too hard to
prove officers last August did not shoot Blake in self-defense.
The investigation laid out a timeline of what happened.
Police first responded to a 911 call over a dispute about a
vehicle.
And when they arrived, they tried to arrest Blake on a
domestic violence warrant.
- Did they get you under arrest?
- They Tased me. - They Tased you?
Ok. - I ripped it out.
- Ok. - I said don't do that.
- You told them not to do that?
- They told me not to do that.
- Okay. - So then they hit me again.
- Blake moved toward the car carrying a knife.
The DA says police started shooting when Blake turned
toward the officers with the knife.
- They didn't have to shoot me like that.
- They didn't have to shoot you like that?
- I was just trying to leave.
He had options to shoot my ires, even punch me.
- The officers involved in this used every one of the
intervention options to try to restrain Blake
during this situation.
It was everything from presence, dialogue, hand techniques,
diffusing techniques, to Tasers, to eventually unfortunately,
really unfortunately, was the use of deadly force.
- The decision drew protests from Kenosha residents,
which remained largely peaceful.
Members of Blake's family want to turn that energy into action.
- It's time to put on some working boots
and get in this game.
We built this nation yet we don't reap the benefits
or the liberties that this nation has to offer.
It's outrageous.
It's unconscionable and it is in 2021.
- Reporting from Kenosha, I'm Will Kennelly for “Here & Now.”
- The man appointed by the state Department of Justice to
recommend whether to charge the police officer who shot Jacob
Blake says he struggled with seeing a Black man shot in the
back but in the end described it as lawful but awful.
We sat down with police reform consultant and former Madison
Police Chief Noble Wray.
Thanks very much for joining us.
- Thanks for having me.
Appreciate it.
- Are you at peace with the recommendation you gave to the
Kenosha DA not to charge the officer who shot Jacob Blake?
And, if so, why?
- I was at peace with coming to that conclusion,
but I would never be at peace when a citizen,
an African-American male, is shot on a city street
in the United States.
- Because a friend of the Blake family and organizer in Kenosha
lamented your and the DA's decision saying that we should
not live in communities where as Black people,
“if you step outside, you're fair game.”
So, you understand what she's saying?
- I understand it, and in so many ways.
And that is the struggle because I understand it from a--
you know, a police officer.
Police officers, there are African-American police officers
feel the same way.
I understand it from a personal standpoint.
I don't - I feel that way.
I have-- like I said, I have sons.
Now I have grandsons.
I feel that way.
It is like this heavy weight that sits over us that is kind
of pervasive, that - it is a weight that the justice system -
it just seems like it hangs over being Black in America.
- Under one police reform proposal in the state of
Wisconsin, the standard for use of force would change to using
deadly force only as a last resort.
Would that have changed your recommendation had that been in
place?
- You know, don't stop shooting until you stop the threat.
I think that does deserve some more dialogue and understanding.
I think by introducing a law that says the last resort would
cause us to go back and look at that.
In my report, that's the last thing I ended on my report.
I said that we still need to focus on the sanctity of life.
And what I meant by that is just that.
I don't think we're doing enough in this.
The parameters that we have to use to judge this
puts us in a framework
where we don't have the flexibility
of being able to think out of the box.
Now, obviously, those that are in the policing profession right
now would probably push back on that.
Because it is a tough job.
It is tough when you are exercising and using deadly
force, to make that in a split second decision with all of
these things going on.
But I do think the obligation for us to look at this as a last
resort, but have a framework to work with,
it would be really important.
- On another matter, and unrelated,
what is your response to the U.S.
Capitol Police basically losing control to the Trump mob,
as it were, compared to response in Washington and elsewhere to
Black Lives Matter protestors?
- Clearly, they were not prepared.
Clearly, there was a differential response.
Everyone that watched the protests that took place
in the spring and the summer, post-George Floyd, saw this.
But the reality is is that they did not have enough.
And it was painfully obvious they didn't have enough.
- So you just described it as painfully obvious.
What was your reaction when you saw that and realized that that
was happening?
- My reaction was from an African-American in this society
is why is that happening that way?
It almost appeared to be to me to come across as intentional.
It was so obvious that there were not enough people.
You have a national event taking place.
But from a policing standpoint, I had mixed feelings, obviously.
I knew that the officers that were out there
were trying their best.
They were trying their best to do it.
So I've been in those situations, you know,
given Mifflin Street on Halloween here in Madison,
where you want to put people in their best position to succeed.
I don't think the leadership, Capitol Police,
put those folks in the best position to succeed.
And we're very lucky that more did not happen in this whole
thing or people were not hurt or potential loss of life.
- As to the Jacob Blake shooting,
Noble Wray says in his view all officers in Wisconsin should be
equipped with body cameras.
Kenosha officers are not.
The full-length interview with Wray can be seen at
PBSwisconsin.org.
Earlier in the week, “Here & Now” Reporter Marisa Wojcik sat
down with Tanya McLean, executive director of Leaders of
Kenosha and friend of the Blake family for reactions and next
steps.
- Jacob is disappointed.
I mean he's laying paralyzed right now and he's in a
tremendous amount of pain constantly.
So he's extremely disappointed and saddened by Gravely's
decision.
His father is saddened.
The entire family is.
Justin is extremely emotional.
He's just concerned for, you know,
African descendants throughout this country that basically if
you step outside, you're fair game if someone says, well,
I felt threatened.
And that's no way any of us should have to live.
We're demanding things now.
This whole narrative of asking and all of that,
we're done with that, because, I mean, we've done all we can do.
I mean, we're marching, we're protesting,
we're getting to the polls.
We're doing everything the correct way.
We're following protocol, right, as to how we want to see things
change.
We have lawmakers and officials say, well, just do this.
Well, we've done everything.
And people have been doing this for many, many years before us.
And we're still fighting the exact same fight.
I was on a call last night and the question was asked what do
we need to do.
But we're committed to continuing to fight.
So there's a large group of us.
We're going to be meeting to talk about different strategies
because we know we have to be strategic
about how we move forward.
You know, all of us basically have had the wind knocked out of
us.
So we're just trying to regroup and figure out the best way to
make the things happen that we need to see happen in our
communities and to stop all this-- the police terror.
Because that's exactly what it is.
It's police terror.
- You can watch the extended interview with Tanya McLean on
our website.
Now to the Wisconsin Capitol, where Assembly Republicans are
already setting up their first showdown of the new legislative
session with Governor Tony Evers,
this time over the state's COVID-19 response.
“Here & Now” Senior Political Reporter Zac Schultz
has the story.
- That I will support
the Constitution of the United States.
- The biennial inauguration is supposed to be a bipartisan
celebration of the new legislative session.
For one day at least, Democrats and Republicans welcome new
members and play nice.
ROBIN VOS: Today we celebrate our Wisconsin bonds,
not as Republicans or Democrats, even though Democrats aren't
here, but as Wisconsinites.
- But the pomp and circumstance of the day could not mask our
state's fractured and partisan response to the COVID-19
pandemic.
Democrats in the Assembly did not even take the floor because
Republicans would not mandate masks at this indoor event.
- I'm absolutely jazzed to be here today and I want to offer
my sincere congratulations to everyone getting sworn in.
- Some took the oath of office before the New Year,
administered over Zoom by Governor Tony Evers.
Others outside before a judge.
- My duty as state representative.
- Wisconsin's COVID-19 response is also the first issue to reach
the floor.
Governor Evers reissued his bill from last December.
Democrats introduced their own bill.
But Republicans control the Legislature,
so Assembly Bill 1 comes from them.
- The proposal we are introducing today has over 44
provisions to help fight the virus and reopen our economy and
our schools.
- The most controversial provisions include a civil
liability shield for businesses, meaning they couldn't be sued by
employees who get COVID on the job.
Banning a local health authority from shutting down religious
services.
Local school closures would be limited to two weeks,
while local shutdown orders are limited to two days.
After that the school board or local government would need to
vote by a two-thirds majority for another two-week order.
The bill passed Thursday on a party line vote,
with Democrats debating the measure wearing plastic face
shields while some Republicans did not wear a mask at all.
It now moves on to the Senate where some Republicans say it
doesn't go far enough.
Even if it passes there, Democrats say it faces a certain
veto from Governor Evers.
Reporting from Madison, I'm Zac Schultz for “Here & Now.” - As
to how the COVID relief package fares in his chamber,
Senator Majority Leader Devin LeMahieu joins us next Friday,
when he'll also respond to the governor's State of the State
Address, being delivered remotely this coming Tuesday at
7:00 p.m.
We will air that address on the Wisconsin Channel and livestream
it on PBSwisconsin.org.
Meanwhile, on Thursday the state announced that more than 110,
000 vaccine doses have been administered to health care
workers and nursing home residents.
Our partners at WisContext have prepared a new data
visualization of the vaccine distribution.
It's part of an ongoing series of charts and maps tracking the
COVID-19 pandemic in Wisconsin.
Again, that's at WisContext.org.
And that is our program for tonight.
Have a good weekend.
- Funding for “Here & Now” is provided
by the Focus Fund for Journalism and Friends of PBS Wisconsin.