[upbeat music]
- Hi, everyone.
Welcome back to aka Teacher.
This is Daniel,
and I am here with my fellow co-host, Angie,
as well as a special guest
who we will introduce in just a few minutes.
Angie, how are you doing?
How's everything going right now?
- Oh, I'm doing super great.
It was a busy week at school.
How about you?
- Yeah, well, there's certainly all the,
you know, excitement after the election.
And I think there's been a lot of focus on who voted.
A lot of people came out and voted,
especially young people, which I think is really exciting.
I think I was a little anxious just of
how polarized things have been,
that there was going to be a lot of tension.
And I think that that didn't turn out to be true.
So, you know, whichever side you were voting for,
whichever candidate you were voting for,
I've appreciated hearing how many teachers,
how many schools got young people interested in the process
and involved with the process.
I hear a lot about this through Twitter.
And we often think about all of the hats
that teachers and educators wear.
And something that's been happening on Twitter too
is since the new takeover of the new CEO,
I'm reminded that teachers often play
their own social media managers and their own network directors.
A lot of people use Twitter
to establish their personal learning network, or their PLN.
And I've seen a lot of people posting, saying,
"You know, if this goes down in flames,
"it's really been nice to know you.
"And I don't know what I'm gonna do
because you've gotten me through some hard times."
I've engaged in some really deep discussions.
And there's a lot of worry
about what's gonna happen on that platform.
- I'm really surprised with all the transitions I'm hearing
at Twitter about kind of that uncertainty
because I know a ton of teachers who use it to network,
but then also just to find interesting articles,
up-to-date information, whether it be like,
"Hey, I'm hearing some new stuff
about this new type of like, lesson planning setup."
Or, I've even gotten some cool ideas of like,
what to do as a different setup in my classroom
for like, alternative seating.
And so, who knows?
If that network opportunity does kind of fade
or evolve suddenly, I'm unsure what I'll do
because I also like to use it as a resource.
- Yeah, exactly.
Angie, did your students vote?
Were they excited to vote?
Were they talking about it?
What was the feel like
in your classroom? - Yeah, so I would say
that it was, not everybody could.
The seniors, not everybody's 18 yet.
So I would say it seemed like probably
about a quarter were 18.
Of that quarter who are 18,
there were some that were very motivated,
very excited, very like,
"Does everybody know that they can vote?
Do you know where you can register?"
We had a registration day at our school.
And then also some people really being opinionated
about like, "My reproductive rights could be on the line.
Please, like, consider who you're voting for."
Or, "My voice and some of the things
"that I'm really worried about in terms of like
"equal rights or equal access could be taken away.
Please consider that when you vote."
And it's always interesting to be on the sidelines
for that because I actually,
I enjoy having the kids have that dialogue back and forth,
but I sometimes am fairly careful to engage myself.
You know, I just,
I don't want anyone to ever misconstrue
that I was pushing an opinion 'cause I'm still a little wimpy
when it comes to that, I'd say.
- [laughs] Well, I think the difference
between politics and partisan,
I think that's something I hope comes up today
and we get the chance to discuss.
I know I was at a school
where the school itself was a polling place.
And it was very exciting, you know, so that not only
in the classrooms teachers could get students involved
with understanding democratic processes
and the voting process and different candidates
and bringing in politicians to talk to the students.
And they could actually see people coming in to vote.
They could see the process happening.
And I talked to a friend recently whose school
that their child goes to was a polling place.
And it actually made them very nervous
because they were there at dropoff.
And just seeing all of these strangers in the school space,
it was just a different perspective.
I thought they were gonna say that it was really exciting,
but it actually made them very nervous
to see people going in and out of their child's building,
and they didn't know who these people were.
- My kid's school was also a polling place,
and I will say, it did feel kind of weird.
It's for my voting area as well.
And it used to be at the public library and it switched.
And so I'm not quite sure why, honestly, but yeah.
And actually, I kind of felt a little weird about it too.
You know, just given the other parts of our,
kind of our climate right now.
I'm kind of excited for us
to begin talking about policy today with our guest
mainly because, you know, in light of this recent election,
I feel like I have some hope.
I'm honest, I was on the other side
of nervous for the results.
And come out of it, I was like, "Okay, okay.
I think that I'm more..."
Less unknowns, fewer unknowns for me
maybe would be the result of a few of the elections.
My school had their referendum pass.
A lot of school districts had referendums pass.
So that was really exciting for my own kid's school.
What about you?
- But I think, you know, after an election,
I think that there's always politics
to bring into schools.
Teaching, education is a political act, right?
I do believe that.
And so really, it's this issue of being partisan, right?
And being careful not to be partisan.
And the other aspect of it too is policy.
So when there's new people coming into power,
if you are looking at what is the state doing,
what is the district doing,
and that's really coming from the very top down,
what things are gonna change,
and how is that gonna make its way into the classroom?
And it can be a little nerve-wracking.
- Yeah, we were even talking this summer
about some of the professional development
that we were receiving that was around just equity.
And there was even some concern
about some bills that could have come to fruition
had the election results been different,
where maybe it would even limit our access
to professional development around equity,
which is mind-boggling that
that that would be a concern for people
when you just talk about some of like, the ways
to make sure our students are having equal access.
I just, I was really surprised by that.
- Yeah.
Or, you know, the big discussion about critical race theory
and, you know, as CRT.
And now it's almost like any of those words are taboo.
You can't say critical, you can't say race,
and you can't say theory.
Certainly none of those words in combination together.
But just the idea that, you know,
as this country is coming to somewhat of a racial reckoning
and looking at racism not as,
you know, a series of individual acts,
but as a systemic issue,
and really coming to grips with that and unpacking it,
we need to help our students think about it as,
you know, what systems are at play.
And critical race theory really is no more than that.
And it's just helping them have an expansive,
systemic view of an issue.
I personally have a hard time seeing
why that is such a hot topic.
- I know, I know, me too.
[upbeat music]
Well, I think we can kind of get excited
to introduce our guest today.
We've got Terry Kaldhusdal with us today.
And Terry is a sixth grade teacher
at Kettle Moraine School District.
Before making the move to middle school,
he taught fourth grade.
And before that, he was a journalist.
I actually watched a little bit
of your documentary today, Terry.
Terry coaches the speech team,
engages his students in the National History Day program,
and is a documentary filmmaker.
He also helped to co-found
the Wisconsin Teacher of the Year Council,
and has been active in advocating
for educator voices being included
in the legislature process.
Terry was recognized as a Kohl Fellow in 2006,
Wisconsin Teacher of the Year in 2007,
and American History Teacher of the Year
for Wisconsin in 2011.
He was also the Wisconsin
Environmental Co-Educator of the Year in 2014
and a Lowell Milken Fellow in 2014.
Terry, welcome!
- Thanks, Angie. - Welcome, Terry.
- Hi, Daniel.
That was a mouthful.
You didn't need to say all that.
- I know, Terry. - It wasn't necessary.
- No, it's a lot of good stuff.
Terry, do you have like, a wall of plaques at your house?
- [laughs] I have a box of plaques,
let's put it that way. - Okay, okay, okay.
I'll take box of plaques.
But this is so awesome, Terry.
We're really lucky to have you here
because I feel when we talk with a teacher
with a vast number of years of experience,
'cause you're 30 years of teaching.
- Yeah, 30 years; a long time.
- I feel like, then,
you've gotten to see it all, in some ways.
- [laughs] I've seen a few things, yeah.
We all have, right?
I mean, when you're a teacher,
the veil gets pulled back and you see the future, right?
You get to see what this country
is gonna be like in 20 years from now.
So it's pretty cool.
We sit in a really unique position.
I love it.
- Yeah, it's really special to have you here.
Tell me...
Let's go first just really short-term with the midterms.
Were any of the schools in your area polling places?
What was the energy around your area with them?
- Well, I mean, the energy across the country,
right, was off the charts.
And that's a good thing 'cause people are talking
about how, you know, how are we gonna,
what are we gonna fund
and what aren't we gonna fund and policies.
And, I mean, that's why we love America,
and I think that's super critical.
And Kettle Moraine was no different than that.
But, you know, you were talking about how, both of you,
they were polling in your school building.
And there was actually research not very long ago
that schools, and Angie,
you talked about your referendum passed,
that schools were, that when the people vote
in the school building,
the chances for a referendum passing is much higher.
'Cause I think the theory was, you know, they're walking in,
"You know what, these kids do need, you know,
books or, you know, the new building."
Yeah, so I think there's a lot of wisdom to that.
That doesn't happen in Kettle Moraine.
But I did talk to my former superintendent
after that research came out.
I said, "You know, we might wanna see if we can get,
you know, people to vote in our buildings."
But luckily, our last referendum a few years ago did pass.
So it was, you know.
And, you know, that whole thing about
how we fund public education in Wisconsin, huge issue.
And there are clearly winners and losers.
And right now, Kettle Moraine is getting beat up pretty bad,
so hopefully that's gonna change soon.
- Well, already one takeaway from this
is going to be that all local elections
now need to take place in public schools.
- You know, every Thursday,
my students write to their parents.
And they're kind of a check-in and "Hey, here's how I'm doing."
Maybe they're behind, maybe they're ahead.
You know, whatever.
And they put some screenshots of what's happening.
And they also have their pits and their cherries.
And I had a kid on Thursday, they do it every Thursday,
and I had one of my sixth graders that wrote for pits,
he just said, you know, he was talking about, you know,
they had lost a football game, and he had failed a test.
And then for cherries, he said,
"The election is over; no more ads."
- [laughs] Seriously?
- So even an 11-year-old is like,
"Whew, it's over and done."
- I've got a four-year-old; she's less aware.
But my seven and eight-year-old were,
because we watch Wheel of Fortuneevery night,
and she was like, they both would be like,
"Ugh, both sides, ugh," about the election commercials.
Now, Terry, do you ever get asked
by students who you're gonna vote for?
- All the time, yeah. - And what is your answer?
- Yeah, well, my answer is the same
for that as it is for like,
we were just studying the birth of agriculture
in ancient Egypt.
And they had to answer the essential question is,
was the birth of agriculture good for human development?
And so there's no right or wrong answer,
but you had to back it up with sources,
and you had to cite your sources,
and you had to explain your reasoning,
and you had to explain your evidence.
And so, you know, they asked me that same thing.
"What do you think, Mr. K?"
And I'm like, "Doesn't matter what I think.
What matters is what you think and why do you think that."
And so if I had,
well, let's step back to 2020, January 6th, right?
My class came in,
and they were just talking a mile a minute.
I mean, it was on their mind, right?
And that wasn't my game plan for that day,
but, you know, it wasn't hard to read the room
on what was going on.
So I said, "Okay, here's what we're gonna do today.
"Open up your laptop, open up a Google Doc,
"and I want you to write about what happened yesterday.
"And how do you know that?
And what questions do you have?"
And I figured they'd, you know, 11-year-olds, right?
Sixth graders, 10 minutes.
They wrote for over a half hour. - Wow.
- I mean, they were really engaged.
I mean, they saw what happened.
I didn't see any of it until that night, right,
'cause we're in our bubble.
- We're teaching. - And so the day ends,
and I didn't pick up my phone right away.
I usually get around school a little after 6:00,
and I usually leave about 4:00, and so about 4 o'clock
I'm about to go home, pick up my phone.
I had 74 text messages.
I'm like, "What's going on?" - Oh, my gosh.
- I had no idea.
I completely had no idea what had happened.
And so that next day,
when my students are writing about it, I said,
"Okay, what happened?"
And they summarized what happened and how did, you know.
So whenever I ask a question in my class,
the first thing the student has to say
whenever they're talking, like, if they Google something,
or if we're talking about, you know, fact stuff,
first thing they have to say is, "According to," right?
So they said, "Well, according to blah, blah, blah,
you know, this is what happened."
So lots of different news sources.
And then they went into questions.
And a kid said, "Hey,
what if the protestors had been Black," right?
And the whole class was like, "Ooh."
And this one kid who, you know,
clearly was a fan of the former president,
and he had the MAGA hat.
And when he was sick in, you know, 2020, right,
the kids were still wearing masks.
At least in Kettle Moraine they were.
And if a kid was exposed, they had to go home.
And then they were doing the, you know, the online thing.
You know, he had a big Trump flag,
you know, behind him.
So it was, you know,
it was clear, you know, who he...
And he says to the kid,
"Wow, that's a really good question.
You know, I hadn't thought of that."
So then we kept, you know, kids had different questions.
Next day, I get this really angry email, right,
from a mom who happened to be in charge of our PTO accusing me
of being a flaming liberal and this and that.
And like, I said,
"If your kid knows who I've ever voted for,
I shouldn't have a license to teach."
And I said, "You don't know where I stand politically.
"Your son has no idea where I stand politically.
"And just so you know, I didn't say that.
"That was one of my students who said that.
"And the kid next to him said,
'Wow, that's really an interesting question.'"
So I think it's really important.
And Daniel, you were talking about the difference
between partisan and politics.
You know, it's not our job to tell 'em what to think,
it's to teach 'em how to think, you know.
And, you know, the State Historical Society
taught me that, you know, three questions that historians ask,
like, what do you know,
how do you know it, and why does it matter?
And I think if we as adults stick to that,
and if our kids can learn that,
I think it'd be a lot more peaceful place.
- Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Terry.
There's a few moments that I know can be,
I'm sure, challenging.
There's the moment where you have your lesson plan
and something else is going on,
and you decide to not just make a little tweak,
but really postpone it, throw it out the window,
and be responsive to what the students are talking about
and what they're bringing in.
Secondly, some things that can be very touchy,
and you know that you're probably gonna enter a zone
of uncomfortable conversations.
Not just within the classroom,
but, you know, the third thing is what you handled,
which was repercussions from it,
and conversations after the conversation.
I'm just wondering, you know, like, how,
what goes through your mind to make those decisions,
and how do you gain comfort
at any of those moments, making those shifts
as a teacher and not saying,
"Well, I know I have to get through this,
X, Y, and Z, and I need to stick to that"?
Or, maybe, "It makes me too nervous
to have that conversation, so I'm going to avoid it."
How would you speak to your experience gaining comfort
with all of that? - Right, right.
The comfort thing I think is important
'cause a lot of teachers; I mean,
you know, I know teachers that literally break out in hives
whenever you just say the word "politics," right?
But I think it's really critical
that we have those hard conversations.
And that doesn't mean we tell them what we think,
and this is what you should think, you know.
I mean, for example, in science,
science has become politicized because of global warming.
Or, as my wife likes to say, global weirding.
And, you know, if we avoid those conversations,
that's not gonna solve the problem, right?
But if we stick to what do you know,
how do you know it, why does it matter?
And so I had some students that said,
"Well, the world is 10,000 years old,"
which geologists would say,
"Well, I kind of differ with you."
But what was super interesting,
it was educational for me and for them.
So they had to cite their information.
And they found,
there's like a hundred people over time,
including Martin Luther, who started the Lutheran Church,
who said, "No, no, the world's 10,000 years old."
And what they did is they went into the Bible,
and they built a tree, family tree,
and they figured out, they kind of guessed on like,
"Oh, based on that family tree, the world must be,"
'cause they start with Adam and Eve
and worked their way through, you know,
all the way to Moses.
So then we got into this great conversation like,
"Okay, so when were Adam and Eve born?
"Like, is there a birth certificate?
I mean, do you have evidence of that?"
And so it was this great conversation about it.
And they're like, "Huh."
So I don't need to tell kids, "Hey, this is how,"
but just to put that out there of,
"Okay, so here's what you believe,
but do you have the evidence for that?"
And, you know, I would never tell somebody that,
"No, your belief is wrong,"
but I could question their evidence,
say, "Huh, is that a credible source,
and can you back it up with a second source?"
And, you know, that's kind of my journalistic background.
You just don't listen to one.
You gotta get two or three sources
before you put it in the paper in the old days,
if anybody remembers newspapers.
So yeah, I think, Daniel,
it's super important that we have those hard conversations,
but it doesn't have to be about what we think.
We just want the kids to kind of discover.
And I think if we don't have those hard conversations,
whether it's about how our government is designed
and should work or science or,
you know, whatever it is, literature,
I think we fail our students.
And I think they remember those conversations
more than anything else.
I think if you ask kids, you know,
what do you remember most about your education,
it's those meaningful, at-the-moment,
deep conversations that made them think,
not where they were told to think.
And I think that's what good educators do.
- Yeah.
Terry, I'm curious, you brought up January 6th,
and I'm wanting to hear more just
from other years in your experiences
about other pivotal moments,
whether it was a change in leadership
or a change in policy,
maybe at the local, state, or national level,
where you really felt it entering the classroom
and the school.
And maybe you or other teachers,
you felt like your hands were tied.
You know, something was coming from the top down.
This is something, you know, that you had to do,
you were mandated to do.
Or just, like I said, something politically or policy,
really feeling that in the classroom.
And either, like I said,
feeling like your hands were tied,
or finding a way to still exercise your own autonomy
as a teacher and connect with the students
as you were saying you were able to do with January 6th.
Right, what have been some other pivotal moments
in your career?
- Well, a big one that we are still feeling the effects of
is No Child Left Behind.
So that came into effect the year
that I was honored as the State Teacher of the Year.
So I was, first of all,
I was shocked that that even happened at all.
But we got to meet President George W. Bush
in the Oval Office, and that was in the morning.
And in the afternoon,
there was about 35 of us that decided to,
there was a window of time between meeting the president
and the gala that night.
And so we kinda got organized
and put together a packet of 10 stories
on the negative impact NCLB was having on our students.
And we knew that we weren't gonna get rid of it, right?
I mean, that legislatively was not gonna happen overnight.
But we thought we could improve it.
And what we found, and first I'll tell you,
well, let me first say the impact of that legislation
on my students.
- Yeah, just for people who maybe don't know.
Even like, newer teachers who are like,
"Oh, I think I heard of that once."
- Right, so the whole idea between NCLB
and what a lot of people don't understand
is that it was signed by George W. Bush,
but the legislation was actually written by Ted Kennedy.
So it's not like it was just one party
that was trying to, you know, slam this through.
And the idea was that Kennedy felt like
our inner-city kids were not getting a quality education.
And so the idea is that everyone would have a state test,
and then based on that test,
we would see if students are where they're supposed to be.
So the problem for me on that legislation is,
number one, when it was created,
there were no teachers in the room, right?
It was just politicians.
And imagine if we went to war without talking to any generals.
Like, that would be insane, right?
That would be crazy. - That's a great analogy.
- But somehow, this legislation was created
without talking to any teachers.
So we went up to Capitol Hill and started knocking on doors.
And that was really eye-opening for me
because some politicians are like, "Hey, come on in."
And they're like, "Wow, I didn't know that.
That's super interesting."
And I was really impressed with how much some politicians knew.
You know, so that was really a pleasant surprise.
And then I was really disappointed
that some politicians didn't wanna talk to me.
You know, I said, "Look,
"I'm not here representing my union,
"I'm here representing my students.
"'Cause they can't be here,
so I wanna tell you the impact it's having on 'em."
And so one of the multiple issues it had
for me and my students is,
and I taught fourth grade at the time,
was that, and this is honest truth,
like, I'm telling the students,
"Okay, we're gonna start the state test today."
"Is this important?"
"Yeah, it's super important."
"Is this gonna be graded?"
"Yep, it's gonna be graded."
"So we're gonna get it back?"
"No, you're not gonna get it back."
"Wait a minute, they're gonna grade it,
but they're not gonna give it back?"
"Nope, they're not gonna give it back."
"Why is that?"
"Well, it's just the way it's set up."
And then a kid, and it's super brilliant, right,
the kid says, "Well, how are we gonna learn anything?"
[Daniel laughs] Yeah, good point, right?
Because that test doesn't measure a student,
it measures a system.
And you know who cares about the system?
Realtors, right?
And so one of my points knocking on doors
was why can't this test help my students and say,
"Here's where you are, and here's where you need to be?"
And if we go back to that same year in 2007,
Mississippi's state scores,
they took first place in the country
in reading and first place in math.
For example, in reading, they're like 92...
I can't remember exactly what percent of their kids
were proficient in reading.
Now, a lot of people were really surprised by that, right?
Well, how is that possible?
And this is the other flaw with No Child Left Behind.
And the flaw was that
Mississippi set their bar so low at the time
it was nearly impossible for a student to fail.
- So I didn't know that.
Every state got to choose their benchmark?
- Their state standards.
- Oh, oh, yes. - Their state standards.
Right, because we don't have national standards.
We still don't have national standards.
That's a whole 'nother issue-- - Keep going, though.
I forgot. - That we could talk
for hours on.
- Yeah. [laughs] - Yeah.
- And so Massachusetts had the highest standards,
and Mississippi was near the bottom.
So we know that now
because when the NAEPs score came out,
which for those are unfamiliar with it,
the NAEPs test is a nationally normed test.
Not every kid takes it.
It is a sampling of students.
For example, we had eighth graders last year that took it.
And they took it in a classroom next to mine.
And I thought it was really fascinating.
I'd never seen this before.
So there was a group of people I'd never seen before.
They walked in before school started.
They had all of their own computers.
They rolled them all in.
No Kettle Moraine teacher was allowed in the classroom,
and they proctored that test.
So it can't be gamed.
And we know that state tests have been gamed
like in Atlanta and Dallas, right?
There's story after story of, you know,
teachers taking them home and correcting them,
which is just awful.
But it tells you the pressure that is on teachers, right,
for the kids to do well.
So the reality of state tests,
and I've talked to the President of the United States
about this, former president.
I've talked to two governors about this,
I've talked to three state,
or secretaries of education about this.
You know, when they see me coming, it's like,
"Oh, here he comes again."
But this is the problem, right?
Let's take 4th grade because, right, 4th, 8th, and 10th grade
is the big years for the state test.
If I had a fourth grader that came in reading
at a sixth grade level on day one,
but left me reading at a fourth grade level,
I was considered a success, and so was the student.
And that's wrong.
But if I had a student come in at a first grade level
and tested and left at a third grade level
and grew two years, I'm considered a failure,
and that student's considered a failure.
That's wrong.
And so when I was talking to a state senator about this,
he said, "Wait a minute.
"How are the teachers
in Arrowhead High School gonna feel about that?"
And so Arrowhead is a nearby high school of ours
that has great test scores for the state test,
and they're doing really well.
He says, "If it's based on a growth model,
"and they have students coming in high, but they don't grow,
they're not gonna be very happy about that."
And my response was, "Okay, shouldn't they,
"even though they came in high, shouldn't they grow?
"Shouldn't every student grow?
Isn't that the whole point?"
But, you know, what I'm talking about
is completely upending the entire system.
And that's not gonna happen overnight.
So that's something I'm still working on.
So that's legislation that had a direct impact
on every student in America, right?
At least in public education.
So, yeah.
You know, the whole thing about No Child Left Behind,
and then, you know, what came out of that was Common Core.
And Common Core has just been completely demonized,
in my view, for all the wrong reasons.
And what's, I think, really interesting about Common Core
is that, you know, it was created by the governors,
but then when it got to the national level,
it got demonized.
And Obama had nothing to do with it,
but he did, you know, give it a thumbs up.
And then it became a political weapon.
To me, Common Core went back--
So if you look at the history targets for Common Core,
what does it say?
Kids need to be able to write a claim,
which historians call a thesis.
They need to be able to find credible evidence,
they need to be able to explain that evidence,
and they need to come to a...
I mean, there's not a whole lot there.
It doesn't say what books the kids should read.
It doesn't say they should cover,
you know, Wisconsin history in fourth grade
or ancient civ in sixth grade.
It's just, "These are the basic targets
that every American should have."
And it still got demonized.
And for some reason, I don't know how they found me,
but ALEC, I don't know if you guys know ALEC,
the American Legislative Exchange Council,
which is funded by lots of conservative groups,
including the Koch brothers.
And it's where conservatives will come together,
and they'll exchange ideas.
And they come away with some legislative ideas,
and then they head back to their states.
They wanted me to come in and talk about Common Core.
And when I asked the woman that invited me, I'm like,
"Why me, now what?"
She says, "Well..." I had written an editorial piece.
And she said, "The companies that help fund ALEC
"have decided that they need employees
"who can think critically,
and that ALEC needs to stop demonizing Common Core."
I'm like, "Wow, so that's how politics work, okay."
So that kind of pulled the veil back for me a little bit.
And I can't tell you how nervous I was.
So I just talked about Common Core,
the impact it's having on my kids,
and why it's important.
And how, you know, the whole idea
of we need people that can think outside the box,
and that we're not, you know,
my Wisconsin students aren't competing
with West Virginia,
and they're not competing with Minnesota,
and they're not competing with Mississippi.
They're competing with China,
and they're competing with Germany.
I mean, when you look at the test scores,
like, we're getting our rear end kicked.
And that needs to change for us to stay competitive,
not today, but like, 20 years from now.
And after it ended,
suddenly there was this flood of people running up
to the stage, and it was all these politicians
who had questions, really good questions.
To the point where they said,
"Hey, can you take this out in the hallway?
'Cause we got another speaker coming in."
I'm like, "Great."
And this one guy hands me his card.
He was from...
He was from Nevada.
And he said, "Look, I got a radio show tomorrow morning.
"I want you on there.
"I want you to talk to my listeners.
It's calledRed Meat Radio."
I said, "Sounds good; that's great."
And so they wanted information.
And then, you know, it always comes down to education.
You know, no matter where you are
in a political aisle.
And that's where, you know,
the ads, political ads that just,
all it does is demonize the other side, right?
Nobody wins in that, and we're all tired of it.
But if we can talk to one another and say,
"Hey, how is this gonna help?"
And so, you know, the Common Core thing,
I think if we would've had actual civil conversations
about it, I think it'd be a different world right now.
But the reality is, at least in Wisconsin, you know,
Governor Walker changed the title of it,
but the reality is not much of it changed.
It's really the same thing as what was pitched,
you know, 10, 15 years ago.
That was a long answer to a short question, sorry.
- No, Terry, it was really good.
Actually, I feel like I'm very much like,
again, your experience really comes through
in this conversation.
And I've been a teacher for 15 years,
but I still feel like I'm just like, hanging on your stories
'cause they're so good.
Are you interested at all about talking
about some of the school board decisions
that have taken place in your district recently?
[Terry laughs]
- Am I comfortable talking about it, no.
- Yeah, you can say no. - But will I talk about it?
Yes, yeah. - You can say no if you want.
- No, I'm fine talking about it
'cause I think we need to have those conversations.
So unfortunately, for those that don't know,
Kettle Moraine made national news,
several news organizations,
about some recent policy decisions that were made.
One of 'em was banning pride flags from the classroom
because the school board decided that it was a political flag.
And you're not allowed to have political flags
in your classroom.
And so here's my response to that.
First of all, there's all kinds of research
that those kids, including my sixth graders,
who are either struggling with their gender
or struggling with their sexual orientation,
and we all know that they exist in there amongst us,
and they need to be,
they need to feel the same love that everybody else does.
And so to have a pride flag in the classroom,
to me, there's nothing political about that.
So a Ukrainian flag in my classroom doesn't fly
because I'm trying to convert my students
to become Ukrainians.
That would be weird.
And just the name, pride flag,
tells you that it's to tell people, "You know what?
"You should take pride; you're fine.
"You know, we're with you.
We're not against you."
And so I thought that was very unfortunate.
You know, it was their interpretation of the flag.
They saw it as political.
They didn't see it as being...
I mean, my superintendent was talking about a teacher
who has a shamrock because she's Irish, right?
'Cause she takes pride in being Irish.
To me, it's the same thing, right?
And I think it comes from fear.
And that's where we need to have conversations.
And what I was really proud of,
and anybody can go online
and see these school board members,
but a couple school board member meetings
beginning of the school year,
it was student after student after student
who stood up and said,
"This is gonna be really hurtful to me, to my friends."
And again, you know,
there's all kinds of research about the suicide rate
with kids who, you know, are either gay or, you know,
are with their, you know, struggling with their gender.
Or, you know, I just feel like,
why shouldn't we do everything we can to support them
and not ostracize them?
And that was the really heartbreaking part
about those students who had the courage to speak up.
And what I hope is going to come, this is my hope,
is that the school board will bring those kids back and say,
"You know what, okay.
"You've spoke in public,
and, you know, you just had a short amount of time."
And there's a lot more people that wanted to speak
than had the opportunity to speak
'cause they cut it off after, I think it was a half-hour.
Or maybe it wasn't; I think it was a half-hour.
They said, "Let's have a conversation.
And, you know, tell me more."
And there was, you know,
story after story of kids being bullied online,
in the hallway.
And, you know, this is 2022.
We should be way beyond that.
And, you know, what makes it hard
from a teaching standpoint is,
you know, we have our First Amendment right
just like everybody else,
but it's different when you're a teacher.
And it's going back
to what Daniel is talking about with polling,
or with the partisanship versus politics.
And I felt like I, in that situation,
I didn't need to speak.
Like, the students were doing it themselves.
And isn't that what we want in the end, right?
I mean, they're the ones
that are feeling the brunt of that.
- Did any of those conversations trickle
into your middle school classes?
And what did those conversations look like if they did?
- Yeah, so part of the beauty of sixth grade
is that they're really self-absorbed.
[Terry and Angie laugh]
So, Angie, you teach high school, right?
- Yeah. [laughs]
- That's a very different animal.
- Yep.
- You know, a bomb could go off and they'd say,
"Wha-- Did you...?
No, I didn't hear anything."
I mean, it's part of the beauty of sixth grade.
- Does my hair look good still? [laughs]
- Yeah, exactly. [laughs]
So the conversations haven't trickled into my classroom,
which, you know, I appreciate,
but I know it has in the high school.
And there are some teachers that are really frustrated.
And not for political reasons.
Just for, you know,
they want those students to feel loved and cared for.
Like, "Hey, we want you here, and you're important."
And it's not hard.
I feel like something
that wasn't political became politicized.
And I've told parents this.
Like the one that I was telling you about
on January 7th that came after me.
I'm like, "Politics doesn't belong in my classroom.
"Partisan politics does not belong in my classroom.
Political process absolutely belongs in my classroom."
And my students saw what happened on January 6th.
They're like, "I don't wanna be part of that.
Like, if that's democracy, leave me out."
And I feel like, "What do I do to help to preserve,
"at least in these kids' minds,
the importance of our democratic process?"
- Terry, I'm wondering, you know,
you mentioned fear as the place
that these policies are coming from,
and how something like gender
and sexuality has become politicized.
You know, these things that are human,
part of the human experience,
and all of a sudden they're part of the political landscape,
and they're political issues.
What do you think the fear is?
Or just to kind of unpack that question,
where is the fear coming from,
and what is it that's turning these,
something that's just part of the human experience,
into a heated political issue?
- It's the culture wars.
And I think it's really hurting a certain political party.
And I think the fear is that
if you have a pride flag in your classroom,
that you're trying to convert these kids to be gay, right?
And that's my point of, you know,
if I have a Ukrainian flag,
I'm not trying to convert these kids to become Ukrainians.
That would be weird.
Like, you can't control that.
You know, there's still the belief out there
that you can convince somebody to be gay
or to change their gender or, you know, that.
And I really believe,
20 years from now,
we're gonna look back and say, "Wait, you did what?
Wait, what was the policy?"
I think we're just gonna be a lot smarter.
You know, it's an education issue.
And it wasn't very long ago when gays couldn't get married.
And, you know, I remember when I was born in 1961,
to kind of tell you how old I am,
but, you know, I remember when gays were just,
were slandered and nobody thought poorly of it, right?
And luckily, we have grown from that,
but we've still got a long way to go.
And so what's the answer?
The answer is education.
You know, one of the interesting things
about public education is
that whatever ails the country or the state,
it's up to us to try to fix it.
So if you remember Just Say No,
right, with the Reagan administration
and, you know, cyberbullying.
And, you know, I mean,
you could go on and on and on about all these issues
that ail us, and it always comes down to education.
- Awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Terry,
for just sharing some of your stories.
I feel like I could sit down with you
and talk about so many more stories,
but I think we have to move on to our next segment,
which is called Pass the Mic.
[upbeat music]
- In this part of the show,
we open up and hear from voices from not just us.
We don't just wanna hear us talking on this podcast.
And today's Pass the Mic comes from McKayla in Brillion.
And McKayla's question is,
"Which aspect of classroom management
is most difficult for you?"
- Wow.
Well, I-- - Great question.
- That is a big question.
So I'm gonna choose the one that's classic,
and then just have my classic teacher response.
It's the phones, is the high school challenge.
And I actually collect my students' phones
at the beginning of every block.
I've got like a toolbox
that I have them all put their phones in,
and then I put it into a locked drawer.
A handful of years ago, though,
we were told we were not allowed to do this.
We had some problems with some stealing of cell phones,
not in my class, but in a separate class.
And so our administration at the time said,
"Can't do it anymore."
And I was amazed how much of a behavior struggle
that we experienced during that year
when we were not allowed to collect cell phones
in terms of just the kids never taking a break from them,
and then just almost like a blatant like,
holding my phone up, looking at it,
doing a weird face for a picture.
You know, like, "Look, I just took a picture of you."
And you're like, "Cool, don't love it."
And so when we were not allowed to collect cell phones,
so it was about a school year and a half,
it was really challenging.
And then when we came back from COVID,
and we went to, you know, a version of a hybrid learning,
then eventually all in-person, but still masked,
I didn't collect the phones at that time either,
and it was very difficult to get the kids
to pause what they were doing, to want to engage.
Even if the activities were very much like,
"Hey, you're gonna be working in partners.
"There's no direct instruction,
but you're working with groups, you're doing stuff."
It was challenging sometimes to get kids to take a break.
- Yeah, it's funny, in the classroom context,
you know, you think, "Well, technology,
"it's in everybody's pocket,
"and we've gotta integrate it into the classroom
"and teach students how to manage their devices
and not just manage it for them."
But I know there's a restaurant just a couple blocks
down the street from me with a no cell phone,
I would say, policy.
- Wow. - There's signage up.
You know, they don't come around.
If you take it out,
they don't come to your table and take it away
or put it in a box,
but you don't see people with their cell phone out.
And actually, when I go there,
I have to remind myself to keep it away,
and I follow their policy and... - Wow.
- I think I focus on the food more.
I focus on the conversation more.
- Yeah.
- And it's a context where, to me, that's a no-brainer.
I enjoy the meal, and I enjoy the company a lot better
when my cell phone's away.
- As far as behaviors,
I think it's really critical that you have routines.
And I think we're all creatures of habit.
And then once you build those habits,
the kids love when you break 'em, right?
But they know the expectations.
And I think you do away with,
you can get rid of a lot of problems
when you create those habits,
whether it's, you know, silent reading or jotting
or how to work on a...
And I think that's really critical.
And then the other piece, I think,
to avoid those behaviors
that interrupt another student's learning is the why.
Like, why are we doing this,
why does this matter, why is this important?
And I think a lot of times we teach expecting them
to understand why it's important to us,
and we forget that they don't understand.
Like, they don't have the experience that we have.
You know, I taught literature for a long time and,
you know, read a book like 10 times
'cause you've been teaching it for a long time,
so you assume they know what you know.
No, this is their first time reading this book,
so how would they?
And I think that's true with everything we teach.
So yeah, I don't know if that answers the question,
but I just think it comes down to routines.
And whenever a kid is acting out,
a lot of times it's kids having a bad day.
"All right, tell me about what's going on.
"You know, maybe you got bullied at lunch
"or, you know, whatever it is.
But if you can get that out, okay, now we can move on."
- Did you ever readThe First Days of Schoolby Harry Wong?
- I don't know that book.
- Oh, well-- - Is it a short story,
or is it a book? - It is not.
It was a required reading in my undergrad like,
pre-service teaching.
And it's just a huge book on routines.
Like, literally wrote through like,
it's like almost a how-to
for what the first month of school could look like
in terms of like, "Teach these routines.
"Yes, tell them how you want them to enter and exit the room.
Yes, tell them how you want them to pass in their papers."
And I give it to every student teacher.
It's an older book,
but it just really does do the trick
for those routines being a way to have an efficient classroom.
- It still rings true, yeah.
- Yeah, I think for me, in terms of classroom management,
it's the word "management."
That any of these issues, you know,
cell phones or the routines and habits,
that they're things we have to manage.
And I think it's easy to say...
So for me, I would say it's relationships, right?
Classroom management comes down to relationships.
And that's easier to say
than to be in any given moment and to remind yourself,
what is my relationship with a student, right?
What's their relationship with their peers?
What's their relationship to school?
What's their relationship to the material?
And to step back and examine that.
Because I think in those moments
of feeling like the classroom is not being,
I'm not managing the classroom well,
I think even just thinking in those terms,
management creates tension.
How can we allow ourselves to step back
and examine relationships a little more.
It's really hard to do.
And relationships evolve over time.
And when there's something seeming amiss
with classroom management,
you wanna nip it in the bud quickly.
And you can't always do that with a relationship.
- I couldn't agree with you more.
I'm a huge Tom Waits fan,
if you guys listen to Tom Waits at all.
And he's been around a long time, singer-songwriter.
And I heard him interviewed one time.
He never graduated from high school.
And the person, the reporter interviewing him said, "Why?"
And he says, "Well, I remember looking around,
"and I was thinking,
"'Wow, some of my teachers don't wanna be here.
If they don't wanna be here, I don't wanna be here.'"
And I feel like, you know,
you gotta build that classroom that you wanna be in,
right, and that relationship that you obviously...
That's why Daniel, I think that's so true.
Like, if your kids don't trust you
and feel like you have their back,
hey, you're gonna have problems.
So yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
- Yeah, totally.
That's why, actually, you know,
the first few days of doing this cell phone collecting
is rather nerve-wracking for me.
I don't get nervous, well, I get nervous a lot,
but it's really nerve-wracking for me
because I am having an initial relationship interaction
being, "Give me your like, most prized possession."
And so I have to really bring
into a lot of positive energy of like,
"Oh, it's just gonna be for just a little bit.
"Don't worry, it's gonna go in this box.
"Like, everything's gonna be okay, I promise.
"If you wanna have yours in your backpack instead,
"that's fine.
It just can never ever come out."
And it's a lot of pressure
because I really thrive on relationships.
Joy in the classroom is huge for,
I think, a lot of us when we love our job.
And so it is very nerve-wracking
because I'm about to set the first interaction
to be very different,
but I always just try to tell them like,
"This'll be worth it."
And already now, if you would ask any of my students,
they'd be like, "Oh, yeah,
"this is how we do it in our class.
"It's not a big deal.
I kinda like it, actually."
But it's always nerve-wracking in the beginning.
- Yeah, you're taking them old school.
I love it. - I know. [laughs]
- We're going old school. - Turn and talk. [laughs]
- That's right.
- I'm connecting this to the conversation about policy,
or these ideas making their way into the classroom.
And not so much at the national level,
but more locally, even just within a school.
And when I think of classroom management,
it's not just in terms of going on,
but I think it's the question of
if an administrator or an observer were
to walk in right now and see what's going on,
and sometimes I would say like,
"I would be completely embarrassed,"
or, "I hope nobody walks in right now to see this."
I think those are those moments of,
I don't think classroom management is going well.
And is there something there about the expectation
of what a classroom should look like,
and what it should look like at all times
without exception, right?
So that if somebody came in,
and even if it wasn't up to the standard
of what a well, quote, unquote,
"managed classroom" should look like,
there should be room for that to happen.
- Yeah.
- Because you're in a room full of people and adolescents.
And so there's something about that pressure
from outside eyes.
Even if they're not in the room,
it's that they could be there at any moment
that I think creates a lot of tension
around classroom management. - That's so true.
I had a aid one time
who had this idea of what schools should be.
And that idea was a college library.
And how do you have these great,
small group conversations or turn and talks?
Or, you know, how do you have that energy
in your classroom if nobody's ever communicating?
You know, there are times when it does need
to feel like a college library, and then there are times
when it should be loud in the classroom.
And school has changed, right, because society has changed.
And I think kids are much more interactive now
because of the pedagogy that we use.
I was giving a talk to,
it was actually in Vermont, state superintendents,
and I was talking about what I do in my classroom.
And this guy asked me,
I don't know what state he was from, but he said,
"Why is it so hard to change education?"
And I said, "Well, my theory is that..."
I used to coach high school basketball.
And I came in one day, and it was a really rough day.
And parents were coming after me because of out-of-bounds plays,
about who I played, who I didn't play, about my...
You know, I mean, every coach deals with that, right?
And I was complaining about it,
and the old, salty wrestling coach was sitting
on his bench in front of his locker.
He says, "You know what your problem is?"
I'm like, "No."
He goes, "Your problem is you coach basketball."
I'm like, "What's that supposed to mean?"
He goes, "See, I coach wrestling.
"My parents know nothing about wrestling.
"Your parents have either played basketball,
"or they've seen basketball,
so they think they know how to coach basketball."
He goes, "That's your problem."
And so my theory is that it's really hard
to have a dynamic classroom
when people, including parents and some educators,
like, they have this view of what education should be
because they went to school,
and they forget how much the world has changed.
And we as educators should change too, right?
So, you know, the desks in a row and, you know,
the teacher being the sage on the stage.
Like, those days should be over.
I mean, we know so much more now on how to engage kids
and to get 'em thinking.
So, yeah.
And I think the more we empower the kids,
I think the less behavior issues you're gonna have, for sure.
- Well, I just really wanna thank you, Terry,
for being an advocate for all of our students.
Your students, but I also feel like from this conversation
that you are advocating for my students.
It sounds a little robust,
but all of the students of Wisconsin. [laughs]
Thank you for just advocating for the kids
because our kids, we know some kids have voices,
but we also know there's a lotta kids
who get lost kind of in those cracks.
And I feel like you're fighting the good fight
for all of us.
- Well, I appreciate both of you.
And the courage to do what you guys are doing
and teaching in the classroom, I think that's awesome.
So thank you for what you guys are,
you know, you guys are giving educators a voice,
and I can't think of anything more important than that.
- Thank you, everyone, for listening.
That is gonna wrap our episode today.
We just wanna remind you to submit your stories,
submit your experiences, your questions.
You can record a voice memo or type it up.
And please send it to education@pbswisconsin.org.
And make sure you put "aka Teacher" in the subject line.
Also, make sure to visit the aka Teacher podcast website.
It's at
pbswisconsineducation.org/ akateacher.
And you can find helpful resources
and all of our podcast episodes.
See you next time.
[upbeat music]