% >> (on radio): If securing the
% peace in Iraq is impossible,
% which after nearly four years
% it clearly is,
% I don't see
% how compartmentalizing
% the country is the answer.
% The United States needs to
% immediately begin withdrawing
% troops from Iraq,
% a country in the throes
% of a civil war...
% (car passing by loudly)
% ...and constantly aggravated
% by the actions and presence
% of our own government.
% That is the reality.
% (car passing by loudly)
% ...immediate action,
% the cessation
% of more lives lost.
% >> Mr. Canin, you see
% a political solution...
% (explosion and man screaming)
% Fighting begets fighting...
% (explosions continue)
% ... Open the doors
% of negotiation...
% (loud screeching or screaming)
% ...including Syria and Iraq.
% >> Hi, Welcome
% toDirector's Cut.
% I'm your host,
% Charles Monroe-Kane.
% Here atDirector's Cut,
% we're dedicated to bringing you
% the best in independent films
% and filmmakers.
% Our film today is called
% "Madison."
% The film tells the story
% of a war correspondent
% named Michael,
% who's suffering from PTSD
% after four years
% of covering the war in Iraq.
% It's Christmastime, and Michael
% returns to Madison, Wisconsin,
% where he went to college.
% In search of his lost idealism,
% and for some solace
% from the chaos of war.
% The film is slow-moving,
% often quiet,
% and very intense.
% "Madison" was written
% and directed by our guest today,
% Brent Notbohm.
% Brent, amazing film.
% Thank you very much
% for being here.
% >> Thanks, it's nice to be here.
% >> You know, I've watched a lot
% of films about the Iraq war,
% documentaries and films,
% and they always
% focus on the soldier,
% or the people in Iraq.
% But you focused on a
% war correspondent named Michael.
% Why that choice?
% >> It was the point of view
% that I felt I understood
% the best.
% You know, I'm not a veteran
% of the Iraq war.
% I have not been to Iraq.
% And yet, I still wanted
% to make a film about
% what I understood
% was going on over there,
% at least the emotional impact
% that war was having,
% potentially on the people there,
% and trying to come to
% some sense of understanding
% for myself about the war.
% And I asked myself, who it is
% that I understand
% the war through.
% Who is the conduit for
% my understanding of the events
% that were happening over there.
% And it was the journalist.
% And so, that was the genesis
% of the project, really,
% was to think about
% what happens if the journalist
% has seen too much.
% What happens if the person
% that I'm accustomed
% to experiencing the war through,
% what happens if that person
% has seen way beyond what they're
% able to communicate any more?
% And so, that's
% really where I started
% as I developed the project.
% >> You set it
% in Madison, Wisconsin.
% Why Madison?
% >> Well, I'm from
% the Madison area.
% >> That's a good reason.
% >> And Madison is a town
% that I've always associated
% with my own political awakening.
% The first time I ever heard
% the "Dead Kennedys"
% was in Madison,
% or "Black Flag," you know,
% the first time I ever knew
% what punk music was.
% And the first time I ever
% really understood
% what an anti-war movement was,
% was something I related
% very specifically
% to the city of Madison.
% And you know, with the
% documentary, "The War at Home,"
% for example, and the things
% that happened in Madison
% in the '60s,
% which I learned as a kid.
% It is a city that's always
% stood for this sense
% of idealism,
% of political awareness,
% of political change.
% >> Do you think that's a symbol
% outside of Wisconsin, as well?
% Do you think someone in Iowa
% that's watching this film,
% or California, do they
% also see Madison, Wisconsin
% as this oasis symbol as well?
% >> You know, that
% I'm not entirely sure of.
% I think for me,
% as I developed the project,
% that was the basis for it.
% I don't think
% that to appreciate the film
% you have to have that
% understanding of Madison.
% >> Right.
% >> You know, Madison is,
% I think it's a little bit less
% about the city
% and more about the idea.
% Madison, to me, in the film,
% is very much an idea.
% It is a place
% where you can change the world,
% and where people believe
% that they can change the world.
% And in that sense,
% I suppose maybe Madison natives
% would think
% that's a little idealistic.
% That's the intention I have.
% I think, you know, as so many
% college freshman come to Madison
% and have their own political
% awakenings, that they believe
% they can make that difference.
% And it was that sense
% of idealism that is at the heart
% of my use of Madison,
% or the setting of Madison
% in the film.
% >> That sets up our next clip
% really well.
% Set it up for us.
% The next clip is the three main
% characters playing pool in a bar
% that I actually go to
% all the time to eat burgers.
% But tell me a little bit
% about why you chose this.
% What's up with this scene?
% >> The characters in Madison,
% the three primary characters
% of Michael, Ben and Ash,
% really represent
% three different points of view.
% Three different
% points of view that I think
% are struggling throughout
% the course of the film
% to understand one another.
% Michael is very cynical.
% He's devastated
% by the experiences
% that he has seen in Iraq.
% Ben is just the opposite.
% Ben reflects a sense of hope.
% Not an innocent naive hope,
% but a hope that comes through
% the difficulties of life,
% but still believing that
% things are going to work out.
% And Ash is the idealist.
% Ash is the one who
% really believes that he can
% truly make a difference.
% Each of the characters, those
% three characters in Madison,
% really all kind of come from
% my own feelings
% on any given day.
% You know, the days that I--
% I try to take those feelings
% and put them into
% these characters in the film,
% and let them intermingle
% with one another.
% So the scene that you're
% going to see is an example
% of that intersection
% of these three different visions
% of the world.
% >> Let's roll the clip.
% >> But that doesn't help me
% achieve my goal.
% >> Your goal?
% >> To change the world.
% >> Yeah? What's your plan?
% >> I'm not quite sure yet.
% But you gotta admit,
% it's an awesome goal.
% ♪ ♪
% The cultural revolution.
% >> What's that?
% >> There's gotta be
% a cultural revolution.
% I mean, those in power
% have too much of it.
% They have the ability to blow up
% entire cities with their nukes,
% for Christ's sake.
% A traditional revolution
% is no longer possible
% in a technologically
% advanced society,
% where the power elite
% have all the big guns
% and the media.
% Progressive change
% must happen culturally.
% >> You're from California?
% >> Yeah.
% >> What do your parents do?
% >> My dad's a banker.
% And my mother teaches
% high school English.
% >> Tough life.
% >> What?!
% >> Did you ever notice that
% all the American revolutionaries
% these days happen to be
% middle class white kids?
% >> It was the same thing
% when we were in school.
% >> You know, I've heard that
% you'll think differently
% when you're older before.
% And I must say, you old guys
% are really doing a bang-up job.
% The middle class is shrinking.
% The environment
% is going to hell.
% Don't even get me started
% about education.
% >> All right, good point.
% >> Thank you.
% >> Seriously, things
% really aren't that bad.
% I mean, there are problems,
% sure.
% But we live in a better world
% today than we did
% 30 or 40 years ago.
% >> We do?
% No, I've got to agree
% with the kid on this one.
% >> Don't agree with me
% if that's the way
% you feel about it.
% Things are bad,
% but we can change them.
% We have to.
% >> Again, I ask you, how?
% >> You tell me.
% ♪ ♪
% >> How about a toast?
% >> To being (no audio).
% >> To progressive change.
% >> To both.
% >> All: To both.
% >> You're watching
% nDirector's Cut,the show
% that brings you the best
% in Wisconsin independent films
% and filmmakers.
% That was just a clip
% from the film, "Madison."
% You know, Brent, when I watched
% that clip, and you were talking
% about that being your own
% internal dialogue, absolutely.
% I remember being
% that college student.
% I was totally him.
% There was no way.
% Then, I was much more cynical,
% I think, as I got older.
% And I'm feeling a little bit
% like Ben, which is kind of nice,
% more hope.
% What was it like writing that?
% I mean, you're the screenwriter
% of this film, as well.
% So you had to go through
% the anguish to write it, right?
% >> You know, it's interesting.
% That's a great question.
% When I start a project,
% I often start
% from a position of anger.
% This film absolutely
% started with me
% just being incredibly angry,
% and wanting to do something
% about what I saw
% as being a tremendous injustice.
% You know, in America's
% involvement in this war
% that I believe was just wrong.
% And so that, you know,
% that was the idea.
% And then, thinking about
% Michael, as Michael emerges,
% I mean, Michael is me
% on more days than not,
% in that sense of cynicism.
% Then there are moments
% in my own existence
% where I truly believe
% we can make a difference.
% That's always been
% a key part of me.
% I love the Bob Dylan quote,
% "I was so much older then;
% I'm younger than that now."
% And the idea that
% we often think that young people
% are naive and silly,
% and that as we get older,
% we get cynical.
% And you know,
% I'm a college professor.
% That's something that
% I battle with today, as well.
% My own cynicism with my students
% and their belief.
% I actually very often identify
% with their sense of the ability
% to be able to change things
% throughout.
% So that was, you know,
% all of those things
% were kind of converging at once.
% I think, as you actually
% write characters
% from those points of view,
% I really felt like
% it was easy for me.
% There were times where those
% two characters in particular
% seemed to come out,
% because they really did reflect
% the feelings that I did have,
% not just about the war,
% but throughout
% the course of my life.
% Ben was a harder character
% for me, because I'm not
% that hopeful very often.
% So, Ben was the most challenging
% character for me to write.
% And I think I still struggle
% with that character in the film
% to this day.
% Brian did a fantastic job.
% I do look at the film now, and
% think I got close to what that
% character really means to me,
% but I'm not sure I touched it.
% It's the character
% I understood the least.
% >> Maybe in 15 years,
% when you have more hope.
% >> I hope so.
% >> Maybe the world will change.
% >> The last line of the film,
% right?
% >> You know,
% Ben has a sub-character.
% There's a sub-character
% in the film.
% And it's Ben's
% eight-year-old daughter, Maddie.
% And there's a great moment
% where Ben kind of manipulates
% the situation--
% Michael is staying with them--
% To make sure Maddie and Michael
% get some time alone together.
% It happens to be
% on Christmas Eve.
% Tell me a little bit about
% Maddie, about the character,
% why she's in there.
% And tell me a little bit about
% that moment, where they're alone
% on Christmas Eve.
% >> I think one of the big things
% about being--
% You know, in our society,
% we think children
% are sometimes stupid.
% And you know,
% I have a nephew and two nieces.
% And every moment
% I've ever spent with them
% has told me otherwise.
% And they really, in many ways,
% have had a profound influence
% on me as a human being,
% not just as a filmmaker.
% This idea that, not only
% the sort of cliche concept that
% children represent the future,
% and Maddie clearly does
% represent this idea
% of the future, and
% of Madison itself, potentially.
% But even more so, that the
% questions children ask are
% the most important questions.
% And that they have a capacity
% to understand things way beyond
% we adults often give them credit
% for.
% So when I wrote this character
% of Maddie, I really wanted her
% to not just
% speak about the future,
% be the future,
% represent the future.
% Not speak about it,
% but be the future.
% But I also thought that it
% would not be in some
% silly childish kind of way.
% But that she would have
% the profound sensibility
% that I've experienced in my life
% interacting with children.
% They'll say something
% and you'll be like,
% "Wow, that was incredible
% that you said that."
% I do feel like the scene that
% we're going to see here
% in just a second, is perhaps
% one of my favorite scenes
% in the film, just because she is
% so magnetic in her performance.
% Sophia, who's playing this scene
% with her father, Jim.
% And what is said in this scene,
% to me, as a person,
% has always moved me very much.
% Now, this was a character
% that wasn't me.
% This was a character
% that was about my experience
% with children.
% >> Let's see the clip.
% >> What do you like to play?
% >> I don't know.
% What do you want to play?
% >> I don't know.
% >> Where did you come from?
% >> I live in New York City.
% But the last few years,
% I've been in the Middle East,
% in Iraq.
% >> The war place?
% >> Yes.
% >> Are you in the Army?
% >> No, I write for a newspaper.
% >> Sue's son is in the Army.
% He's been to Iraq, too.
% She had a party for him,
% and I got to go.
% What's war like?
% >> War is...
% complicated, sad.
% People die.
% >> My mom died.
% >> I know.
% I'm sorry.
% >> Did you know her?
% >> Yeah, a little.
% I was at your parents' wedding.
% >> That's before I was born.
% My dad said
% it was a beautiful wedding.
% >> Yes, it was.
% >> Are there kids in war?
% >> Yes, there are children
% in Iraq.
% >> What do they play?
% >> I don't know.
% But it's different than here.
% >> How?
% >> Everybody's afraid
% all the time.
% >> Of what?
% >> Of dying.
% So, what do you want to play?
% >> Don't worry, Michael,
% we don't have to play war.
% >> That is a powerful moment
% of filmmaking.
% And it brings up
% all sorts of questions.
% But to me, it brings up
% a filmmaking question.
% You don't need a $20 million
% budget to do that scene.
% You're an independent filmmaker.
% Limited budget.
% Limited time frame.
% But yet, you can still make
% that art.
% Do you need--
% Is that good or bad, though,
% in the end, for the art,
% for the independent filmmaker
% to have such a limited
% time frame and a limited budget?
% Would you have rather had
% a little bit more?
% Would it be better
% to have the $20 million?
% >> You know, there isn't a scene
% in Madison that we shot
% that I did not at one point say,
% "I wish I could do
% another take."
% When you're making films
% with a limited budget, like
% we had in making "Madison,"
% you have to understand
% that there's a threshold.
% Do you have it?
% Do you have what it is you're
% looking for in this scene?
% Yeah, maybe there's a tick,
% a moment or a slight move
% of the camera, whatever,
% that you would like to cover.
% But it may take
% ten more takes to do that.
% And you're doing
% 25 or 35 setups a day.
% It's incredibly challenging
% to shoot this film.
% We shot it in two weeks.
% The entire film in two weeks.
% >> Gosh.
% >> It was incredibly
% challenging.
% You know, I look at the scenes
% that I like the least.
% And we shot them all
% at the end of the day.
% I can see my fatigue
% as a director
% in those particular scenes.
% That said, all the money
% in the world doesn't equate,
% as we well know,
% watching Hollywood movies,
% to making engaging, provocative,
% interesting movies.
% And I think that
% one of the things that
% sometimes filmmakers buy into
% is this belief that you've
% got to have all this money
% to have something to say,
% to create a film,
% to make a film,
% to be involved with characters,
% and their story,
% and to speak about something
% in our world.
% And I think that
% that's a lot of crap.
% You know, certainly,
% you need some money.
% You know, certainly,
% production value is important.
% I feel like we really did that,
% given the nature of our budget.
% But at the same time, I do think
% that we tend to overplay
% this idea that we have to have
% all this money to do
% all this stuff, or otherwise
% we can't do it at all.
% It's so all or nothing.
% And I think that's crippling
% for independent filmmakers
% to sort of buy into
% that Hollywood mentality.
% >> Sure, yeah.
% It was interesting.
% I was thinking about your film.
% This film got
% a lot of critical acclaim.
% It got, you know, Sundance.
% These things happened
% to this film.
% It won the awards.
% It's very celebrated.
% What's next for you with that?
% Is the goal, then, to take this
% and then go to Hollywood?
% Is that for you personally?
% Or is the goal in general,
% okay, that's it,
% I want to go to Hollywood now
% and be a screenwriter
% and write films.
% Is that the goal?
% >> It is not.
% You know,
% I'm a college professor.
% And I love the classroom.
% It is really where
% characters like Ash, you know,
% sort of emerge in my own psyche.
% There's a professor character,
% who I see idealistically
% as me 25 or 30 years from now
% in the film, as well.
% But I'm not
% a Hollywood filmmaker.
% I will never be
% a Hollywood filmmaker.
% You know, if Hollywood
% wants to give me, you know,
% X amount of dollars
% to make a film, my film,
% the film I want to make, great.
% I'll take advantage of that
% if that opportunity ever arises.
% But to me,
% I'm not into filmmaking
% to make a lot of money
% and, you know, get my picture
% on the cover of a magazine,
% or something.
% I'm in it because I have stories
% that I want to tell, and ideas
% that I want to relate to.
% I'm politically oriented,
% so I think my films deal with
% issues that we face
% as a society.
% I'm not about trying to provide
% answers for the major issues
% of our society.
% But I think as a filmmaker,
% a role that I play is to
% ask some important questions,
% questions that I don't think
% often get asked.
% And I think "Madison"
% is a great example of that.
% So, I love the camaraderie
% of independent filmmaking.
% I love the idea that
% we are not being controlled,
% maybe that's the wrong word,
% my Orwellian universe,
% by the forces of economics,
% and so forth.
% There's a tremendous amount
% of freedom, in terms of what
% a film can be
% in independent film, or at least
% potentially an independent film
% with those filmmakers who
% don't buy into the restrictions
% of the formulas, and the
% homogenized stylistic elements
% of Hollywood filmmaking,
% or even pseudo
% Hollywood filmmaking,
% which seems to infect
% a lot of independent films.
% >> There's a clip
% I want to show.
% It's a little bit
% of a longer clip.
% It's very powerful.
% One of the things I like about
% the clip is it's pretty much
% the camera sitting there
% on Michael telling a story.
% But it's written perfectly.
% And you don't need a big budget
% to do this kind of clip.
% But it shows the power
% of what you do.
% And I think this clip
% kind of speaks for itself.
% So let's roll yet another clip
% from "Madison."
% >> After Baghdad was liberated,
% I met a family.
% They lived near my hotel
% in a neighborhood
% that hadn't been bombed
% too badly.
% They were really kind to me.
% They spoke pretty good English,
% and they had me over to dinner
% a lot.
% They gave me these great
% insights into Iraqi culture
% and society.
% The man's name was Ahmed.
% He was a school teacher.
% His wife was Hayfa.
% They weren't any big fans
% of Saddam, either.
% Hayfa's uncle had been in prison
% for something political.
% Anyway,
% they had a daughter, Kareema.
% She was maybe eight.
% She was this beautiful
% little girl.
% Tiny.
% Black hair.
% And one day, near the end
% of a so-called major military
% operation, she was out playing.
% And she found this thing.
% It was shaped like a bell,
% like a toy.
% She got all excited about it.
% She ran home to show her mother.
% They were looking at it
% on the kitchen table
% when it blew up.
% Hayfa was killed instantly.
% Kareema was still alive
% when her dad got home.
% She'd been lying next to
% what was left of the mother
% for hours.
% Ahmed drove her to the hospital.
% It's an awful place.
% There's no beds.
% There's no medical supplies.
% They got lucky
% and found a doctor to treat her.
% They amputated both her hands
% and her right leg.
% But there was no anesthetic,
% no painkillers.
% She lived like that
% for two days.
% I was with Ahmed when she died.
% This beautiful little girl.
% She was reduced to charred flesh
% and bloody bandages.
% Kareema could have grown up
% to do great things.
% Cured AIDS.
% Been a teacher, a doctor.
% She could've changed the world.
% Now we'll never know.
% The world will never be changed.
% >> I read that.
% It was very powerful.
% >> It makes great copy.
% It's won me much acclaim.
% Good news doesn't save lives.
% Bad news wins awards.
% >> That was a powerful clip
% from the film, "Madison."
% You know, when I watch
% that clip and hear that story,
% it reminds you of the power
% of first-person narrative.
% Where did that story come from?
% >> You know, it is a story
% that's largely a work
% of fiction.
% However, I read, in my research
% for the film, many stories
% that were equally as powerful,
% often about children.
% So, all the stories in the film
% are not direct quotes
% from any source.
% But they are very much like
% many of the stories that I read
% by some of the alternative
% journalists that were actually
% reporting the things that were
% happening to the Iraqi people,
% instead of just what we,
% the American troops, were doing.
% >> I was watching this film,
% and had some expectations
% going into it.
% It's really a story about
% chaos and war, and him
% dealing with the chaos of war.
% But then the film's
% fairly quiet.
% There's a lot of silence.
% There's a lot of times,
% very few people,
% even in bar scenes.
% Not what you expect
% from a war about chaos.
% What is the role of stillness
% and silence in your film?
% >> First of all, I think
% aesthetically speaking,
% that contemporary style
% has a tendency to marginalize
% the content of the film.
% I mean, it spices it up and
% makes it exciting, and so forth.
% You know, if you do a lot
% of quick cutting
% and hand-held camera work,
% and that sort of thing.
% I didn't feel like those
% were appropriate choices,
% given what the subject
% of this film was all about.
% I also think that films
% can be stylistically
% not just what is
% the contemporary "style."
% And you know,
% that form and content,
% to use kind of a cliche,
% can synthesize, depending on
% whatever the content is,
% and whatever your ideas about
% the form of the film might be.
% So, to me, it was a somber film,
% like you mentioned
% in your opening, about solace.
% And to be about solace, to me,
% was to be quiet,
% to be reflective,
% to be thought provoking,
% but not in a way
% that's in your face.
% But rather, that you walk away
% thinking about what
% you experienced in your own way,
% either relating to it or not.
% I feel like style
% in so many films today,
% especially style
% on some rather serious subjects,
% is so in your face.
% You know, cue the John Williams'
% music, or whatever, that it
% doesn't give us that space
% as audience members
% to interact with the film
% in a way that is more dynamic
% to me.
% And as a filmmaker, I mean,
% obviously, I'm very influenced
% by European filmmaking,
% especially European filmmaking
% of the '60s.
% I felt like those films let us
% do that in a way that a lot
% of contemporary films don't.
% So, that was at the heart of the
% style of this film, you know,
% based on the subject matter,
% but also based on this idea
% that the audience
% will interact with it in a way
% that is, I feel, more liberating
% than simply in your face,
% this is what you should
% think about war, Madison,
% or these characters,
% or anything emotionally.
% >> Like I said in the talk,
% I've seen a lot of documentaries
% and films about the war.
% I think this is a good
% contribution to the debate.
% I think it does help
% respect that we all have
% different opinions inside of us.
% Are you pro-war or not?
% Well, it's a little bit
% more complicated than that.
% I really respect that.
% And I really,
% really like the film.
% So thank you very much.
% I hope you make another film
% and you come back on.
% >> That sounds great.
% Thank you.
% >> Thank you very much.
% Thank you, Brent, of course,
% for joining us today.
% And thank you all
% for watchingDirector's Cut.
% For more information on
% "Madison," or any of the films
% featured on our show,
% please go to:
% wpt.org/directorscut
% While you're there,
% send us an email.
% We would love to hear from you.
% I'm your host,
% Charles Monroe-Kane.
% And for everyone here
% atDirector's Cut,
% thank you for joining us.
% Check the gate.